Abandoned Races

Colin, you got it!

Only difference is that it’s only “Qualification Races”, no “finals”.

As I see it we the following:

  • Groups racing the whole series, and no reallocation to flights.

  • Groups racing, and reallocation into new groups after N races , and then maybe after N + M, and so on.

  • Groups racing and reallocation into new groups after N races , and then maybe after N + M, and so on, until you reallocate into final flights. These finale flights do not compete with other final flights, only among themselves!

Thats it! Thats all you can say aboat Flights racing (I think).

If thats true, we have generalised the whole Flight thing, and the Competitor field “Flight” can be removed. If anyone must have a field, or button, named Flight: Give em one!

Regards,

Martin

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 4:10 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Flights

Hi Martin,

So in effect the whole thing is an App LE Add C series, each weekends being N races where the competitors have the same flight. Flights rotate after the last race of each weekend.

Colin

www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Martin Bølgen
Sent: 13 September 2005 14:11
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Flights

Hi, Colin.

>> I do have Optimists regattas, consisting of 4
>> weekend races. For one weekend they are devided
>> into 4 flights, and the flights are racing against
>> each other in a round robin. Based on this rank,
>> they are put into new flights for the next weekend
>> and do the same. And so on for all 4 weekends. I'll
>> then have to merge all 4 weekends to get an overall >

standing.
The only way of getting all flights combinations merged
into SW, is to use Assign Flight Races. Actually the
same as App.LE without add.C (Finals).

> I'll need more detail (and examples and SOs) to understand the issue
> exactly, if you used a start rotatiion method then that should still work in

the merged series.

I sent you alot of examples before the summer, but it might have been lossed in the App.LE Add.C story...
Actually I tought the "App.LE way" of doing things could solve my issue too. That's why I wanted Flights coloumn too be renamed. To me, flights racing is flights racing. If there are different formats, OK but still flights racing.
It is just confusing doing the same thing two ways...
The only differet thing from the Topper flights thing, is that after a number of races, flights memberships changes....

So, look at it this way:

You have 4 independent events (weekends). They are scored separately as flights in round robin starts.
The second weekend race is also a independent event, only the flights seeding are based on the stand from the first event.
As the "independent" events progess you want to merge them, so that all of them forms a LONG series together.
The third "independent" events seeding, are based on the overall standing from the combined (merged) two first events.
You gets the last independent events seeding, when you merge the first three, score it and take the overall standing.
At the end, you merge all four "independent" events. When you then score, you'll get a overall winner of the 4 weekend races!
(It was this way it started this spring...)

regards,

Martin

Hi, Ralph & Colin.

I tought I understood it this way about a month ago. You don’t need the Flight field because it is NOT essential to do a Flight race management.

So, why use it?

Why have it?

It will only confuse those who want to do a round robin, or App.LE Add.C -race.

Martin

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 4:51 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Flights

Hi Ralph,

What would be interesting would be to process the Topper event again using 1.87 & the flights column which Colin says is essential to this style of flights racing. <<

Just to clarify, use of that field is not essential, it’s just the most obvious to use - i.e. I think when setting up a topper nationwide type event, the user weill look for a flight field in the competitor record and use it. You could use any field because who sails agaist who is just defined by starts.

In the App LE context the only race specific field available is flight, so it has to be that one. Although you could be perverse and use the race rating field also.

I’m trying to move towards none of the fields having a special significance…

Colin

www.sailwave.com

You are probably right …

until ISAF decide that AddC is not totally satisfactory & change it.

Which I suspect is highly likely after the round of ISAF meetings in November.

Sorry Colin, just as you were beginning to understand it :wink:

Regards

Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Bølgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 13 September 2005 22:23
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Flights

Hi, Ralph & Colin.

I tought I understood it this way about a month ago. You don’t need the Flight field because it is NOT essential to do a Flight race management.

So, why use it?

Why have it?

It will only confuse those who want to do a round robin, or App.LE Add.C -race.

Martin

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 4:51 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Flights

Hi Ralph,
What would be interesting would be to process the Topper event again using 1.87 & the flights column which Colin says is essential to this style of flights racing. <<
Just to clarify, use of that field is not essential, it's just the most obvious to use - i.e. I think when setting up a topper nationwide type event, the user weill look for a flight field in the competitor record and use it.  You could use any field because who sails agaist who is just defined by starts.
In the App LE context the only race specific field available is flight, so it has to be that one.  Although you could be perverse and use the race rating field also.
I'm trying to move towards none of the fields having a special significance....  

Colin

www.sailwave.com

One more...

- Groups racing and after N races reallocate into final flights. All
results before the finals are included in the finals (as rank or all
race results).

//Anders

Colin, you got it!
Only difference is that it's only "Qualification Races",

no "finals".

As I see it we the following:

- Groups racing the whole series, and no reallocation to flights.
- Groups racing, and reallocation into new groups after N races ,

and then maybe after N + M, and so on.

- Groups racing and reallocation into new groups after N races ,

and then maybe after N + M, and so on, until you reallocate into
final flights. These finale flights do not compete with other final
flights, only among themselves!

Thats it! Thats all you can say aboat Flights racing (I think).

If thats true, we have generalised the whole Flight thing, and the

Competitor field "Flight" can be removed. If anyone must have a
field, or button, named Flight: Give em one!

Regards,

Martin
  From: Colin Jenkins
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 4:10 PM
  Subject: RE: [sailwave] Flights

  Hi Martin,

  So in effect the whole thing is an App LE Add C series, each

weekends being N races where the competitors have the same flight.
Flights rotate after the last race of each weekend.

  Colin
  www.sailwave.com

    From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Martin Bølgen

    Sent: 13 September 2005 14:11
    To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [sailwave] Flights

    Hi, Colin.

    >> I do have Optimists regattas, consisting of 4
    >> weekend races. For one weekend they are devided
    >> into 4 flights, and the flights are racing against
    >> each other in a round robin. Based on this rank,
    >> they are put into new flights for the next weekend
    >> and do the same. And so on for all 4 weekends. I'll
    >> then have to merge all 4 weekends to get an overall >
    >> standing.
    >> The only way of getting all flights combinations merged
    >> into SW, is to use Assign Flight Races. Actually the
    >> same as App.LE without add.C (Finals).

    > I'll need more detail (and examples and SOs) to understand

the issue

    > exactly, if you used a start rotatiion method then that

should still work in

    > the merged series.

    I sent you alot of examples before the summer, but it might

have been lossed in the App.LE Add.C story...

    Actually I tought the "App.LE way" of doing things could solve

my issue too. That's why I wanted Flights coloumn too be renamed. To
me, flights racing is flights racing. If there are different
formats, OK but still flights racing.

    It is just confusing doing the same thing two ways...

    The only differet thing from the Topper flights thing, is that

after a number of races, flights memberships changes....

    So, look at it this way:
    You have 4 independent events (weekends). They are scored

separately as flights in round robin starts.

    The second weekend race is also a independent event, only the

flights seeding are based on the stand from the first event.

    As the "independent" events progess you want to merge them, so

that all of them forms a LONG series together.

    The third "independent" events seeding, are based on the

overall standing from the combined (merged) two first events.

    You gets the last independent events seeding, when you merge

the first three, score it and take the overall standing.

    At the end, you merge all four "independent" events. When you

then score, you'll get a overall winner of the 4 weekend races!

    (It was this way it started this spring...)
    regards,
    Martin

    -!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!-

http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

    Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files'

section at

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Martin Bølgen <martin@s...> wrote:

  ----- Original Message -----
    -----Original Message-----
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

    Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
    sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com

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Hi, Anders (++)

You’re right.

For the flights racing with finals, there are several ways. I’ve seen 4:

  • As Anders says:All results before the finals are counting, and may be discardable. (I did this in the Youth EC).

  • The overall standing are imported as a non-discardable race, and counting.

  • The final points (with discards) are imported as a non-discardable race, and counting.

  • The final races are based on the overall standing from Qualifications, but no points are carried forward. This is refered to as “Superfinals”, and includes only 3 to 10 boats. The way of doing this last one, is to make a new regatta after qual. Superfinals might be more advanced too: The last 2 boats in any race shal not race again, until there is 3 left. Then these three are racing until one of them has won 2 times…

As you can see, a lot of variations. But the essence of flight racing are still the same. I think all cases can be handeled by SW, and by the principle of assigning flights to races. Except Superfinals… Those are anyway small regattas, and easy to score. Except for the printout, they might be handeled manually.

regards,

Martin

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Anders Landenstad

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 7:47 AM

Subject: [sailwave] Re: Flights

`One more…

  • Groups racing and after N races reallocate into final flights. All
    results before the finals are included in the finals (as rank or all
    race results).

//Anders

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com , Martin Bølgen <martin@s…> wrote:

Colin, you got it!
Only difference is that it’s only “Qualification Races”,
no “finals”.

As I see it we the following:

  • Groups racing the whole series, and no reallocation to flights.
  • Groups racing, and reallocation into new groups after N races ,
    and then maybe after N + M, and so on.
  • Groups racing and reallocation into new groups after N races ,
    and then maybe after N + M, and so on, until you reallocate into
    final flights. These finale flights do not compete with other final
    flights, only among themselves!

Thats it! Thats all you can say aboat Flights racing (I think).

If thats true, we have generalised the whole Flight thing, and the
Competitor field “Flight” can be removed. If anyone must have a
field, or button, named Flight: Give em one!

Regards,

Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: Colin Jenkins
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 4:10 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Flights

Hi Martin,

So in effect the whole thing is an App LE Add C series, each
weekends being N races where the competitors have the same flight.
Flights rotate after the last race of each weekend.

Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Martin Bølgen

Sent: 13 September 2005 14:11
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Flights


Hi, Colin.


>> I do have Optimists regattas, consisting of 4
>> weekend races. For one weekend they are devided
>> into 4 flights, and the flights are racing against
>> each other in a round robin. Based on this rank,
>> they are put into new flights for the next weekend
>> and do the same. And so on for all 4 weekends. I'll
>> then have to merge all 4 weekends to get an overall >
>> standing.
>> The only way of getting all flights combinations merged
>> into SW, is to use Assign Flight Races. Actually the
>> same as App.LE without add.C (Finals).

> I'll need more detail (and examples and SOs) to understand

the issue

> exactly, if you used a start rotatiion method then that

should still work in

> the merged series.

I sent you alot of examples before the summer, but it might

have been lossed in the App.LE Add.C story…

Actually I tought the "App.LE way" of doing things could solve

my issue too. That’s why I wanted Flights coloumn too be renamed. To
me, flights racing is flights racing. If there are different
formats, OK but still flights racing.

It is just confusing doing the same thing two ways...

The only differet thing from the Topper flights thing, is that

after a number of races, flights memberships changes…

So, look at it this way:
You have 4 independent events (weekends). They are scored

separately as flights in round robin starts.

The second weekend race is also a independent event, only the

flights seeding are based on the stand from the first event.

As the "independent" events progess you want to merge them, so

that all of them forms a LONG series together.

The third "independent" events seeding, are based on the

overall standing from the combined (merged) two first events.

You gets the last independent events seeding, when you merge

the first three, score it and take the overall standing.

At the end, you merge all four "independent" events. When you

then score, you’ll get a overall winner of the 4 weekend races!

(It was this way it started this spring...)
regards,
Martin




-!- [http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/](http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/)

-!-
http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files'

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`

hi Ralph,

You are probably right ....

until ISAF decide that AddC is not totally satisfactory & change it.
Which I suspect is highly likely after the round of ISAF meetings in
November.
Sorry Colin, just as you were beginning to understand it ;-)<<

No worries. Any idea what direction it'll go...?

Colin
www.sailwave.com

···

--
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Under Definitions in the RRS I read:

“Abandon A race that a race committee or protest committee abandons is void but may be resailed.”

86.1(a) prohibits any change to the Definitions.

I take this to mean that an abandoned race never happened and an SI is powerless to effect any other interpretation.

My SI adds an “F” flag with 3 sounds to STOP a race and finish boats in place to salvage an afternoon.

…Gil

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Martin Bølgen

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 5:08 PM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Abandoned Races

BEAUTIFUL*!

Anyway, I liked the idea with DNC and DNF… It complies with the App.A intentions regarding long series!

Regards,

Martin

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 11:01 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Abandoned Races

Isn’t club racing wonderful ;-))))

Regards

Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Dennis [mailto:andy.dennis@btinternet.com]
Sent: 13 September 2005 21:43
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Re: Abandoned Races

  Just for your information we have had 2 instances of abandonment in two different series this season.  Both were long series, i.e they took place over a number of weeks.  We contacted the RYA and the recommendation was to score DNC(number in series + 1) for those that didn't race and DNF (number that raced +1 ) for those that did, but didn't finish due to the abandonment.  The comment was that it seemed only fair to give credit for those that turned up on the day and spent a number of hours battling in very light winds.
  This is the stance that we have taken and we will probably clarify by adding it into the SI's next year.

Regards,

Andy.

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 8:49 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Abandoned Races

` If 2 races are abandoned & not restarted in a 6 race series, then does it not simply become a 4 race
series??
Good to use a code to show why it has become a 4 race series, but beware re discards etc.
If your discards were to vary between 4 & 6 races, by entering competitors as a code, does this not
score the race in Sailwave??

    Unless you have special SIs, Rule 89.3(a) requires that you do not score your race if it is

abandoned

    Other issues could also be affected eg Redress or if all races are put together in your total

series.

    I would probably follow Colin's advice & insert a note when publishing the series results

Regards
Ralph

    -----Original Message-----
    From: kevin_w_head [mailto:kevin_w_head@hotmail.com]
    Sent: 13 September 2005 20:28

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Abandoned Races

    --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "tazdevil1674" <john@k...> wrote:
    > I am new to Sailwave.  In our Club we have 3 Series of 6 Races. For 2
    > races within 1 Series we had to abandon a started race and abandon an

unstarted race.

How do you identify this in Sailwave (1.57)

    I found a simple way to deal with this be re-using the "RAF" code (or
    any other unused code), setting it to display as ABND, and setting it
    to score as "Number of starters+1". A bit like setting everybody to
    DNF, but looked better on the published results.

Regards
Kevin W. CSC

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/
-!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/
-!-

    Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

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`


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It is always interesting to read the opposing viewpoints on ‘special’ arrangements.

Whilst the legality of such arrangements is questioned & subsequently proved to be invalid eg Gil’s conclusion, it is sometimes necessary to concentrate on why the arrangement is being devised.

For example, when previous emails on SUG discussed how to reward an OOD who has given up a day’s racing, no-one questioned the legality of awarding points as though they had sailed. App A refers to boats not people so the OOD should not really be able to be awarded points.

In ‘real life’ anyone who was to challenge the validity of the OOD receiving points for his/her ‘race’ would soon be drinking alone in the bar after racing.

What I find sad is that to avoid potential redress claims from a club sailor who has nothing better to do, Gil has had to write an SI with different flags, as though race management is not difficult enough for the average club OOD. We should really try & keep club SIs as simple as possible (if the ‘bar experts’ allow it!).

If an SI really is necessary, why not simply amend A4.2 & A11 which is permissible under 86.1

Awarding points (for special arrangements) which will be treated as race scores for the purposes of App A seems a fairly simple SI to me,

whilst keeping within RRS … unless someone knows better :wink:

Also, on the issue of abandon, I personally would only apply this if NO races could be completed for the day.

Regards

Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Vick [mailto:gil42c@verizon.net]
Sent: 14 September 2005 15:51
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Abandoned Races

Under Definitions in the RRS I read:

“Abandon A race that a race committee or protest committee abandons is void but may be resailed.”

86.1(a) prohibits any change to the Definitions.

I take this to mean that an abandoned race never happened and an SI is powerless to effect any other interpretation.

My SI adds an “F” flag with 3 sounds to STOP a race and finish boats in place to salvage an afternoon.

…Gil

----- Original Message -----

From:
Martin Bølgen

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 5:08 PM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Abandoned Races

BEAUTIFUL*!

Anyway, I liked the idea with DNC and DNF..... It complies with the App.A intentions regarding long series!

Regards,

Martin

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 11:01 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Abandoned Races

Isn’t club racing wonderful ;-))))

Regards

Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Dennis [mailto:andy.dennis@btinternet.com]
Sent: 13 September 2005 21:43
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Re: Abandoned Races

    Just for your information we have had 2 instances of abandonment in two different series this season.  Both were long series, i.e they took place over a number of weeks.  We contacted the RYA and the recommendation was to score DNC(number in series + 1) for those that didn't race and DNF (number that raced +1 ) for those that did, but didn't finish due to the abandonment.  The comment was that it seemed only fair to give credit for those that turned up on the day and spent a number of hours battling in very light winds.
    This is the stance that we have taken and we will probably clarify by adding it into the SI's next year.

Regards,

Andy.

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 8:49 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Abandoned Races

` If 2 races are abandoned & not restarted in a 6 race series, then does it not simply become a 4 race
series??
Good to use a code to show why it has become a 4 race series, but beware re discards etc.
If your discards were to vary between 4 & 6 races, by entering competitors as a code, does this not
score the race in Sailwave??

      Unless you have special SIs, Rule 89.3(a) requires that you do not score your race if it is

abandoned

      Other issues could also be affected eg Redress or if all races are put together in your total

series.

      I would probably follow Colin's advice & insert a note when publishing the series results

Regards
Ralph

      -----Original Message-----
      From: kevin_w_head [mailto:kevin_w_head@hotmail.com]
      Sent: 13 September 2005 20:28

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Abandoned Races

      --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "tazdevil1674" <john@k...> wrote:
      > I am new to Sailwave.  In our Club we have 3 Series of 6 Races. For 2
      > races within 1 Series we had to abandon a started race and abandon an

unstarted race.

How do you identify this in Sailwave (1.57)

      I found a simple way to deal with this be re-using the "RAF" code (or
      any other unused code), setting it to display as ABND, and setting it
      to score as "Number of starters+1". A bit like setting everybody to
      DNF, but looked better on the published results.

Regards
Kevin W. CSC

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/
-!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/
-!-

      Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

      Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:

sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

`


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