[sailwave] Club Racing -- Late Entries

Imported from Yahoo
1

Hi!

I do notagree upon your proposals!

IF another boat joins the series, DNC for all previous races should be recalculated!

It doesen't matter if the boat comes from another fleet/class, is brand new, or popped up in another manner!

So, when number of boats increases in a series, the points for DNC increases for ALL races!

And, this is how SW handles it when you rescore!

This is how stuff are set by app.A9....

Another little thing you might want to think about:

"A boat that did not come to the starting area shall be scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of boats entered in the series."

Whic actually means that, if the boat was not so close to the starting line that it couold start, it shall be given DNC...

If this is not how you want it to be, you should change it in the SI....

regards,
Martin Bølgen
Grimstad Seilforening
Norway
+47 97517102 / +47 37251906

···

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Colin Jenkins" <colin@sailwave.com>
Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:55:53 +0100

For club racing App A specifes number of boats that came to the start area
in that race + 1 so I would suggest that Patrick just uses that... Its fair
to those that turned up and is not affected by new entries.

CJ
-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 24 October 2006 09:48
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club Racing -- Late Entries

Patrick

I also used to get uptight about this very subject.
When I started looking at results however, I realised that it had
virtually no impact on series results.
The greater the number of entrants in the series & the number of discards,
the lesser the impact.

In a similar vein, what happens if a competitor races in the first race &
then never races in that series again?
Normal App A will increase the value of letter scores for the whole
series.

My solution to this problem was to stop worrying about the mathematical
unfairness of this 'inconsiderate' sailor & worry more about how soon I
could get served with another pint at the bar :wink:

I presume that your SIs apply App A9 for those who at least turned out but
did not get a finishing place?
You could always change the last sentence of A9 to be a fixed number of
points if really necessary.

Regards
Ralph

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
From: Patrick Toal (Personal) [mailto:ptoal@takeflight.ca]
Sent: 24 October 2006 00:52
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Club Racing -- Late Entries

All,

An odd problem has occurred, due to one of the sections in our Club
Racing SI's:

"A boat shall declare the class in which she intends to compete before
the start of each series. Thereafter she may change only upon written
request and subsequent written consent of the Rear Commodore-Sail.
Such a request will only be granted once within a series. Any such
change will not take effect until 24 hours after the written request is
received. All races prior to the change in class will be discarded from
all
series results including class champion. A notice of the approved
change of class will be posted on the Sailing Notice Board before 1200
hrs on the day it is to take effect."
(Here, Class = Fleet)

One of the problems this creates is what happens when a boat joins a
fleet somewhere in the middle of the series. Anyone who has a DNC in
any race prior to the one where this boat joined should have Fleet+1 for
_that_race_, not after. So if a Fleet had 9 boats in Races 1-9, and a
boat joins the Fleet for R10 - 13, DNC's should be 9+1 = 10 for R1-9,
and 10+1 = 11 for R10 - 13.

Unfortunately, there is no easy way that I can find to do this in
Sailwave.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,
Patrick

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2

All,
Thanks for your feedback. Since this has everything to do with A9,
let’s look at it here:
RACE SCORES IN A SERIES LONGER THAN A REGATTA
For a series that is held over a period of time longer than a regatta,
a boat that came to the starting area but did not start, did not finish,
retired after finishing or was disqualified shall be scored points for
the
finishing place one more than the number of boats that came to the
starting area. A boat that did not come to the starting area shall
be
scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of
boats entered in the series.

The pertinent sentence is the last one. Note the changes, and lack of
explicit tense. This is where all the confusion is caused. If I take
the “tense” of the paragraph as “at the time of the race”, it has a
different meaning than “at the time when the series ends”. The first
sentence in the paragraph implies that the tense is “at the time of the
race”, since it refers to the “number of boats that came to the
starting area”, which can only be interpreted to mean in the context of
an individual race. (Otherwise, DNF etc., would be calculated the same
as DNC).

So… For ALL other boats that I have in my series, including those
that only sailed one or two races, I have left them included in the DNC
value. The ONE boat in question here is someone who bought a new boat
that only arrived near the end of this series, and he didn’t actually
register for the series until the new boat arrived (a
not-too-pertinent fact is that his old boat was entered and raced in a
different fleet up until the new one arrived).

So the real problem for me here is one that needs to be solved by the
sailing laywers. I think my interpretation is correct, and that the
DNC value should only increase for those races where the competitor
was actually “entered in the series”, and not before…

I’ll tell you one thing for_sure… Next year’s SI’s are going to
explicitly remove this ambiguity, either through a minimum number of
races to qualify, or some other mechanism. I hate getting in the
middle of things like this. Scoring should only involve accurate
typing skills, and precise math. Leave the “rule interpretation” to
the protest committees. :wink:

I’m interested in hearing what others think about my conclusions. I’m
not married to them, but they “feel right” to me. If there’s something
I’m missing, I want to know, and a mailing list of scorers is the best
resource around. :slight_smile:

Cheers,

Patrick

Martin Bølgen wrote:

··· 

Hi!
I do notagree upon your proposals!
IF another boat joins the series, DNC for all previous races should be recalculated!
It doesen't matter if the boat comes from another fleet/class, is brand new, or popped up in another manner!
So, when number of boats increases in a series, the points for DNC increases for ALL races!
And, this is how SW handles it when you rescore!
This is how stuff are set by app.A9....
Another little thing you might want to think about: "A boat that did not come to the starting area shall be scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of boats entered in the series."
Whic actually means that, if the boat was not so close to the starting line that it couold start, it shall be given DNC...
If this is not how you want it to be, you should change it in the SI....
3

The way Sailwave
scores DNC’s is correct according to several judges and chief scorers. I have
never seen the rule interpreted in the manner you are proposing before. If you
look at the Notice for the Ullman Series http://www.ullmansails.com/UllmanSeries.pdf
you will see that an instruction was specifically inserted to resolve that
issue. NOR 4.3

4.3. A boat not entering a regatta will be scored for the finishing
place 2 more than the last place boat in the regatta.

This was specifically included as we didn’t
want the DNC score to keep increasing throughout the series.

If the rule had been written “**A boat that did not come to the starting
area shall be scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of
boats entered in the series at the time of
the race”. I would agree with your interpretation, however it is not.

Mark Townsend

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Toal (Personal)
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 5:28
AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club
Racing – Late Entries

All,
Thanks for your feedback. Since this has everything to do with A9, let’s
look at it here:
RACE SCORES IN A SERIES LONGER THAN A REGATTA
For a series that is held over a period of time longer than a regatta,
a boat that came to the starting area but did not start, did not finish,
retired after finishing or was disqualified shall be scored points for the
finishing place one more than the number of boats that came to the
starting area. A boat that did not come to
the starting area shall be
scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of
boats entered in the series.

The pertinent sentence is the last one. Note the changes, and lack of
explicit tense. This is where all the confusion is caused. If I
take the “tense” of the paragraph as “at the time of the
race”, it has a different meaning than “at the time when the series
ends”. The first sentence in the paragraph implies that the tense is
“at the time of the race”, since it refers to the “number of
boats that came to the starting area”, which can only be interpreted to
mean in the context of an individual race. (Otherwise, DNF etc., would be
calculated the same as DNC).

So… For ALL other boats that I have in my series, including those that only
sailed one or two races, I have left them included in the DNC value. The
ONE boat in question here is someone who bought a new boat that only arrived
near the end of this series, and he didn’t actually register for the series
until the new boat arrived (a not-too-pertinent fact is that his old boat was
entered and raced in a different fleet up until the new one arrived).

So the real problem for me here is one that needs to be solved by the sailing
laywers. I think my interpretation is correct, and that the DNC value
should only increase for those races where the competitor was actually
“entered in the series”, and not before…

I’ll tell you one thing for_sure… Next year’s SI’s are going to
explicitly remove this ambiguity, either through a minimum number of races to qualify,
or some other mechanism. I hate getting in the middle of things like
this. Scoring should only involve accurate typing skills, and precise
math. Leave the “rule interpretation” to the protest
committees. :wink:

I’m interested in hearing what others think about my conclusions. I’m not
married to them, but they “feel right” to me. If there’s
something I’m missing, I want to know, and a mailing list of scorers is the
best resource around. :slight_smile:

Cheers,

Patrick

Martin Bølgen wrote:

Hi!



I do notagree upon your proposals!



IF another boat joins the series, DNC for all previous races should be recalculated!



It doesen't matter if the boat comes from another fleet/class, is brand new, or popped up in another manner!



So, when number of  boats increases in a series, the points for DNC increases for ALL races!



And, this is how SW handles it when you rescore!



This is how stuff are set by app.A9....



Another little thing  you might want to think about:



"A boat that did not come to the starting area shall be scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of boats entered in the series."



Whic actually means that, if the boat was not so close to the starting line that it couold start, it shall be given DNC...





 If this is not how you want it to be, you should change it in the SI....