Hi: Another regatta and another bunch of irritations with Sailwave.
1. A dinghy regatta is pretty simple so you shouldn't have to turn on
Pro Mode to score it. Dividing a Fleet should not require Pro mode to
make the Division column appear - and Division is virtually always
used in a dinghy regatta. Can you fix the bug?
A further problem is the disappearing cursor. Edit a new competitor
and the cursor comes up in Tally. Not very useful, for most of the
time you want to start with a sail number or helm. So you hit Tab and
the cursor disappears. Hit it again and it comes up in Bow Number.
Then it moves to Class , then disappears again. Clearly this is linked
to the columns available for viewing - but not the ones set up. It
would be much better for the data entry person if the Tab worked
sequentially down the Competitor Entry page. Being able to hide items
not used is useful as it simplifies data entry.
2. I had to set up a non discardable BFD on the water. So you need
another code in the list. I just called it BFDn. Just about manageable
on a bouncing finish boat. I assumed that this code would then appear
in my list of codes when I move to another regatta. But no it doesn't
so I have to produce my BFDn again. Regatta specific codes - nuts to
that! Surely doing it once should be enough. So, can we have BFDn or
new codes permanently available after one generates them?
3. Line judges miss a boat in a melee - never had it happen with my
crew before. So how do you insert a finish place and then
automatically have subsequent finishers move down one position. Sure
you can do it but only after going to the Forum to find out how.
"Rearrange recorded places.." is meaningless. "Rearrange recoded
places after inserting a competitor place" would make more sense - and
there is room on the drop down to have these extra words. And there is
still no basic help file accessible from Help. This is plain vanilla
stuff that is not made clear. Users shouldn't have to go to the Forum
to find out how to do things this simple.
4. Using SNW to score by Fleet when presented with mixed up fleets
finishing together. Surely this is absolutely basic to a regatta.
Again a help file would help. So, we go to set up scoring by Fleet and
one is presented with a complex set of operations. So each Fleet gets
a separate start. OK, seems reasonable but because I'm only a stupid
scorer it took a while to work it out. Click OK and you are done.
No you are not, for you have to say which races it applies to. Duh!
Why not have it apply to all races as the default? Most dinghy
regattas have a fixed number of fleets. Why are there "Move up and
Move Down" buttons? If they are finishing together it doesn't matter
about Start 1, Start 2 etc. If you want additional complexity turn it
on in Pro mode.
It would also be useful to find a way of inserting a Code without
having to grab the mouse. I had hoped that when presented with a Place
in SNW, hitting Tab would open the Code list. Then just use the
up/down keys to find the Code and hit Enter. Of course if you want
BFDn you wont find it in the next regatta!
I think this is enough. A basic problem is that Colin and Huw et. al.
seem to spend more time setting up esoteric scoring systems for on
again off again keelboat races and used by one Club. The basics aren't
even working well.
Now you may get the impression that I don't think much of Sailwave.
But I do think it is good and have said so for many years. But what
hasn't changed in these many years are some of these basic problems.
I've been following Sailwave for about 8 years and there is still no
way for a beginner to set up a dinghy regatta and score it and use
built in help. All my queries listed above are basic to any regatta.
Could we get back to basics please?
Thanks Donald
Donald,
I am pleased that you like Sailwave, not withstanding the problems you have encountered.
Sorry, I have to take issue with some of the points you have made, I will take your points one by one.
- I have just created a brand new Sailwave file from a Sailwave pro forma - Standard Appendix A. When I open the competitor details I see fields for both Fleet & Division without Pro mode being set. So not sure what is happening for you here
I agree that the order of data entry by using the TAB key could possibly be more logically ordered and I do not understand the order myself. I will take a more detailed look later.
- BFD - in the new series I just created, and as far as I recall in all Sailwave files I have created, BFD scoring code is one of the predefined codes; it is always top of the list in my Sailwave files It is also tagged as non-discardable on the properties tab. So again do not understand why you had to create it.
As it is a built-in scoring code it should appear in every Sailwave file you create, no adding for every regatta I agree it would be useful to be able to add to the built-in list so that any code one has to create is then always available; I have to remember to do this for another code (DPI) which is frequently used here in the UK.
-
The text works for me, but I have no problem with it being extended.
-
There is a good reason why one has to say what races the starts apply to; when the total entry is split into different coloured groups (red, green, blue & yellow) which race against each other in a round-robin way, i.e.
Race 1 Start 1 - red & green start together & race together
Race 1 Start 2 - blue & yellow
Race 2 Start 1 - red & blue
Race 2 Start 2 - green & yellow
Race 3 Start 1 - red & yellow
Race 3 Start 1 - green & blue
Race 4 Start 1 - blue & yellow
Race 4 Start 2 - red & green
Race 5 Start 1 - green & yellow
Race 5 Start 2 - red & blue
Race 6 Start 1 - green & blue
Race 6 Start 2 - red & yellow
Regarding selecting scoring codes without the mouse, I agree. This is a long standing problem.
What appears in Lit & Pro is an interesting one, as different people have different perceptions
One could argue that handicapping should be in Lite not Pro as, at least here in the UK, many clubs run handicap racing, with class results extracted when required. I have suggested to Colin that he perhaps adds a 3rd grouping option, but that would lead to more comments
Please remember that Colin the author and sole coder of Sailwave has a normal day job and does Sailwave in his spare time between family commitments and going sailing himself. This is why people like myself give something back by answering peoples questions here in the Sailwave forum. Sailwave is, in my opinion, still the most flexible and easy to use scoring system and I have tried many different ones over the years. Yes it does take to time to understand; just like any software - I am still trying with Microsoft Word, Excel etc.
Colin would be pleased for someone to help by writing a basic help file, instead of the call being for one to be written I think what would be of more use to beginners is worked examples of setups and scoring for a couple of ‘usual’ scenarios, for example
- single class regatta
- multiple class regatta with individual class starts or multiple classes on a start no handicap
- multiple starts with mixed classes on start with handicap ratings applied
FYI - I use Sailwave to score everything from single class, single start regattas through club handicap racing using multiple starts with different series scoring and handicap systems, to International events with daily flight rotation and medal races; so I don’t think I just concentrate on “spend more time setting up esoteric scoring systems for on again off again keelboat races and used by one Club”. However, I can see how that might be a perception from reading the questions I respond to on this forum.
Kind regards,
Huw
···
-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]** On Behalf Of** donald.wyllie
Sent: 22 July 2008 16:33
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] A Bunch of problems with Sailwave
Hi: Another regatta and another bunch of irritations with Sailwave.
- A dinghy regatta is pretty simple so you shouldn’t have to turn on
Pro Mode to score it. Dividing a Fleet should not require Pro mode to
make the Division column appear - and Division is virtually always
used in a dinghy regatta. Can you fix the bug?
A further problem is the disappearing cursor. Edit a new competitor
and the cursor comes up in Tally. Not very useful, for most of the
time you want to start with a sail number or helm. So you hit Tab and
the cursor disappears. Hit it again and it comes up in Bow Number.
Then it moves to Class , then disappears again. Clearly this is linked
to the columns available for viewing - but not the ones set up. It
would be much better for the data entry person if the Tab worked
sequentially down the Competitor Entry page. Being able to hide items
not used is useful as it simplifies data entry.- I had to set up a non discardable BFD on the water. So you need
another code in the list. I just called it BFDn. Just about manageable
on a bouncing finish boat. I assumed that this code would then appear
in my list of codes when I move to another regatta. But no it doesn’t
so I have to produce my BFDn again. Regatta specific codes - nuts to
that! Surely doing it once should be enough. So, can we have BFDn or
new codes permanently available after one generates them?- Line judges miss a boat in a melee - never had it happen with my
crew before. So how do you insert a finish place and then
automatically have subsequent finishers move down one position. Sure
you can do it but only after going to the Forum to find out how.
“Rearrange recorded places…” is meaningless. “Rearrange recoded
places after inserting a competitor place” would make more sense - and
there is room on the drop down to have these extra words. And there is
still no basic help file accessible from Help. This is plain vanilla
stuff that is not made clear. Users shouldn’t have to go to the Forum
to find out how to do things this simple.- Using SNW to score by Fleet when presented with mixed up fleets
finishing together. Surely this is absolutely basic to a regatta.
Again a help file would help. So, we go to set up scoring by Fleet and
one is presented with a complex set of operations. So each Fleet gets
a separate start. OK, seems reasonable but because I’m only a stupid
scorer it took a while to work it out. Click OK and you are done.
No you are not, for you have to say which races it applies to. Duh!
Why not have it apply to all races as the default? Most dinghy
regattas have a fixed number of fleets. Why are there “Move up and
Move Down” buttons? If they are finishing together it doesn’t matter
about Start 1, Start 2 etc. If you want additional complexity turn it
on in Pro mode.
It would also be useful to find a way of inserting a Code without
having to grab the mouse. I had hoped that when presented with a Place
in SNW, hitting Tab would open the Code list. Then just use the
up/down keys to find the Code and hit Enter. Of course if you want
BFDn you wont find it in the next regatta!
I think this is enough. A basic problem is that Colin and Huw et. al.
seem to spend more time setting up esoteric scoring systems for on
again off again keelboat races and used by one Club. The basics aren’t
even working well.
Now you may get the impression that I don’t think much of Sailwave.
But I do think it is good and have said so for many years. But what
hasn’t changed in these many years are some of these basic problems.
I’ve been following Sailwave for about 8 years and there is still no
way for a beginner to set up a dinghy regatta and score it and use
built in help. All my queries listed above are basic to any regatta.
Could we get back to basics please?
Thanks Donald
Huw,
There could be in the build-up of penalties a discardable BFD, further a non-discardable one for a second infringement. Some competitors, with no bad score to discard, could be more agressive in the last race, hence a good method could be to introduce non-discardable BFD in the codes. Configuration could be as you describe, but just tick non-discardable.
Phil
···
----- Original Message -----
From:
Huw Pearce
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 1:18 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] A Bunch of problems with Sailwave
Donald,
(…)
- BFD - in the new series I just created, and as far as I recall in all Sailwave files I have created, BFD scoring code is one of the predefined codes; it is always top of the list in my Sailwave files
As it is a built-in scoring code it should appear in every Sailwave file you create, no adding for every regatta
(…)
Kind regards,
Huw
-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]** On Behalf Of** donald.wyllie
Sent: 22 July 2008 16:33
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] A Bunch of problems with Sailwave
Hi: Another regatta and another bunch of irritations with Sailwave.
1. A dinghy regatta is pretty simple so you shouldn’t have to turn on
Pro Mode to score it. Dividing a Fleet should not require Pro mode to
make the Division column appear - and Division is virtually always
used in a dinghy regatta. Can you fix the bug?
A further problem is the disappearing cursor. Edit a new competitor
and the cursor comes up in Tally. Not very useful, for most of the
time you want to start with a sail number or helm. So you hit Tab and
the cursor disappears. Hit it again and it comes up in Bow Number.
Then it moves to Class , then disappears again. Clearly this is linked
to the columns available for viewing - but not the ones set up. It
would be much better for the data entry person if the Tab worked
sequentially down the Competitor Entry page. Being able to hide items
not used is useful as it simplifies data entry.
2. I had to set up a non discardable BFD on the water. So you need
another code in the list. I just called it BFDn. Just about manageable
on a bouncing finish boat. I assumed that this code would then appear
in my list of codes when I move to another regatta. But no it doesn’t
so I have to produce my BFDn again. Regatta specific codes - nuts to
that! Surely doing it once should be enough. So, can we have BFDn or
new codes permanently available after one generates them?
3. Line judges miss a boat in a melee - never had it happen with my
crew before. So how do you insert a finish place and then
automatically have subsequent finishers move down one position. Sure
you can do it but only after going to the Forum to find out how.
“Rearrange recorded places…” is meaningless. “Rearrange recoded
places after inserting a competitor place” would make more sense - and
there is room on the drop down to have these extra words. And there is
still no basic help file accessible from Help. This is plain vanilla
stuff that is not made clear. Users shouldn’t have to go to the Forum
to find out how to do things this simple.
4. Using SNW to score by Fleet when presented with mixed up fleets
finishing together. Surely this is absolutely basic to a regatta.
Again a help file would help. So, we go to set up scoring by Fleet and
one is presented with a complex set of operations. So each Fleet gets
a separate start. OK, seems reasonable but because I’m only a stupid
scorer it took a while to work it out. Click OK and you are done.
No you are not, for you have to say which races it applies to. Duh!
Why not have it apply to all races as the default? Most dinghy
regattas have a fixed number of fleets. Why are there “Move up and
Move Down” buttons? If they are finishing together it doesn’t matter
about Start 1, Start 2 etc. If you want additional complexity turn it
on in Pro mode.
It would also be useful to find a way of inserting a Code without
having to grab the mouse. I had hoped that when presented with a Place
in SNW, hitting Tab would open the Code list. Then just use the
up/down keys to find the Code and hit Enter. Of course if you want
BFDn you wont find it in the next regatta!
I think this is enough. A basic problem is that Colin and Huw et. al.
seem to spend more time setting up esoteric scoring systems for on
again off again keelboat races and used by one Club. The basics aren’t
even working well.
Now you may get the impression that I don’t think much of Sailwave.
But I do think it is good and have said so for many years. But what
hasn’t changed in these many years are some of these basic problems.
I’ve been following Sailwave for about 8 years and there is still no
way for a beginner to set up a dinghy regatta and score it and use
built in help. All my queries listed above are basic to any regatta.
Could we get back to basics please?
Thanks Donald
Hi,
I'm new to Sailwave, so probably the question I'm going to ask is trivial or was answered before.
I'm in the organization of an international Regatta (Vaurien World Championship) and we will have on fleet with one sub-fleet racing together (Junior).
The Junior sub-fleet classification will be extracted directly from the overall (not recalculated only for them), and we have to publish both the Overall and the Junior separately.
I've tried several methods in Saiwave to get both reports (Overall and Junior), but without success.
Any idea how that can be done ?
Best regards,
Carlos Neto
Carlos,
I have just done a little experiment and I think what you want can be done.
When you want to produce a set of results for all competitors you will click on the score series button the toolbar and make sure that the radio button beside 'Score all competitors as one group" is set. Once the calculation has been done publish the results.
To produce a set for the Juniors with out recalculating their points, i.e. they keep the points from the overall series, follow the same steps as above BUT BEFORE clicking the OK button check the box ‘Sort results by field after scoring’ this will separate the competitors. This presumes you have a field which tags the Junior competitors for example Fleet. Unfortunately you will then have to cut the paper if you only want the Junior results.
Hope his helps.
Kind regards,
Huw
···
-----Original Message-----
From: carlos.neto [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]** On Behalf Of** carlos.neto
Sent: 23 July 2008 12:50
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Sub-fleet sharing same scoring from overall - How to get separate reports ?
Hi,
Im new to Sailwave, so probably the question Im going to ask is trivial or was answered before.
Im in the organization of an international Regatta (Vaurien World Championship) and we will have on fleet with one sub-fleet racing together (Junior).
The Junior sub-fleet classification will be extracted directly from the overall (not recalculated only for them), and we have to publish both the Overall and the Junior separately.
Ive tried several methods in Saiwave to get both reports (Overall and Junior), but without success.
Any idea how that can be done ?
Best regards,
Carlos Neto
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.5/1568 - Release Date: 7/23/2008 6:55 AM
Donald,
I have an apology to make regarding point one. I was wrong, you do have to turn Pro mode on with extra competitor fields so that it (Division) shows in the column window for displaying on the screen in grid mode and/or be published. Confusing as Division shows on the competitor tab and you can enter data into it. Perhaps a refinement is required in that if the field is ticked as not displayed, i.e. in grid mode, it should not appear, if associated with a competitor, in the competitor window and tabs.
Again apologies for not doing my homework properly.
Kind regards,
Huw
···
-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Huw Pearce
Sent: 23 July 2008 12:19
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] A Bunch of problems with Sailwave
Donald,
I am pleased that you like Sailwave, not withstanding the problems you have encountered.
Sorry, I have to take issue with some of the points you have made, I will take your points one by one.
- I have just created a brand new Sailwave file from a Sailwave pro forma - Standard Appendix A. When I open the competitor details I see fields for both Fleet & Division without Pro mode being set. So not sure what is happening for you here
I agree that the order of data entry by using the TAB key could possibly be more logically ordered and I do not understand the order myself. I will take a more detailed look later.
- BFD - in the new series I just created, and as far as I recall in all Sailwave files I have created, BFD scoring code is one of the predefined codes; it is always top of the list in my Sailwave files
As it is a built-in scoring code it should appear in every Sailwave file you create, no adding for every regatta
- The text works for me, but I have no problem with it being extended.
- There is a good reason why one has to say what races the starts apply to; when the total entry is split into different coloured groups (red, green, blue & yellow) which race against each other in a round-robin way, i.e.
Race 1 Start 1 - red & green start together & race together
Race 1 Start 2 - blue & yellow
Race 2 Start 1 - red & blue
Race 2 Start 2 - green & yellow
Race 3 Start 1 - red & yellow
Race 3 Start 1 - green & blue
Race 4 Start 1 - blue & yellow
Race 4 Start 2 - red & green
Race 5 Start 1 - green & yellow
Race 5 Start 2 - red & blue
Race 6 Start 1 - green & blue
Race 6 Start 2 - red & yellow
Regarding selecting scoring codes without the mouse, I agree. This is a long standing problem.
What appears in Lit & Pro is an interesting one, as different people have different perceptions
One could argue that handicapping should be in Lite not Pro as, at least here in the UK, many clubs run handicap racing, with class results extracted when required. I have suggested to Colin that he perhaps adds a 3rd grouping option, but that would lead to more comments
Please remember that Colin the author and sole coder of Sailwave has a normal day job and does Sailwave in his spare time between family commitments and going sailing himself. This is why people like myself give something back by answering peoples questions here in the Sailwave forum. Sailwave is, in my opinion, still the most flexible and easy to use scoring system and I have tried many different ones over the years. Yes it does take to time to understand; just like any software - I am still trying with Microsoft Word, Excel etc.
Colin would be pleased for someone to help by writing a basic help file, instead of the call being for one to be written
- single class regatta
multiple class regatta with individual class starts or multiple classes on a start no handicapmultiple starts with mixed classes on start with handicap ratings applied
Kind regards,
Huw
-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]** On Behalf Of** donald.wyllie
Sent: 22 July 2008 16:33
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] A Bunch of problems with Sailwave
Hi: Another regatta and another bunch of irritations with Sailwave.
1. A dinghy regatta is pretty simple so you shouldn’t have to turn on
Pro Mode to score it. Dividing a Fleet should not require Pro mode to
make the Division column appear - and Division is virtually always
used in a dinghy regatta. Can you fix the bug?
A further problem is the disappearing cursor. Edit a new competitor
and the cursor comes up in Tally. Not very useful, for most of the
time you want to start with a sail number or helm. So you hit Tab and
the cursor disappears. Hit it again and it comes up in Bow Number.
Then it moves to Class , then disappears again. Clearly this is linked
to the columns available for viewing - but not the ones set up. It
would be much better for the data entry person if the Tab worked
sequentially down the Competitor Entry page. Being able to hide items
not used is useful as it simplifies data entry.
2. I had to set up a non discardable BFD on the water. So you need
another code in the list. I just called it BFDn. Just about manageable
on a bouncing finish boat. I assumed that this code would then appear
in my list of codes when I move to another regatta. But no it doesn’t
so I have to produce my BFDn again. Regatta specific codes - nuts to
that! Surely doing it once should be enough. So, can we have BFDn or
new codes permanently available after one generates them?
3. Line judges miss a boat in a melee - never had it happen with my
crew before. So how do you insert a finish place and then
automatically have subsequent finishers move down one position. Sure
you can do it but only after going to the Forum to find out how.
“Rearrange recorded places…” is meaningless. “Rearrange recoded
places after inserting a competitor place” would make more sense - and
there is room on the drop down to have these extra words. And there is
still no basic help file accessible from Help. This is plain vanilla
stuff that is not made clear. Users shouldn’t have to go to the Forum
to find out how to do things this simple.
4. Using SNW to score by Fleet when presented with mixed up fleets
finishing together. Surely this is absolutely basic to a regatta.
Again a help file would help. So, we go to set up scoring by Fleet and
one is presented with a complex set of operations. So each Fleet gets
a separate start. OK, seems reasonable but because I’m only a stupid
scorer it took a while to work it out. Click OK and you are done.
No you are not, for you have to say which races it applies to. Duh!
Why not have it apply to all races as the default? Most dinghy
regattas have a fixed number of fleets. Why are there “Move up and
Move Down” buttons? If they are finishing together it doesn’t matter
about Start 1, Start 2 etc. If you want additional complexity turn it
on in Pro mode.
It would also be useful to find a way of inserting a Code without
having to grab the mouse. I had hoped that when presented with a Place
in SNW, hitting Tab would open the Code list. Then just use the
up/down keys to find the Code and hit Enter. Of course if you want
BFDn you wont find it in the next regatta!
I think this is enough. A basic problem is that Colin and Huw et. al.
seem to spend more time setting up esoteric scoring systems for on
again off again keelboat races and used by one Club. The basics aren’t
even working well.
Now you may get the impression that I don’t think much of Sailwave.
But I do think it is good and have said so for many years. But what
hasn’t changed in these many years are some of these basic problems.
I’ve been following Sailwave for about 8 years and there is still no
way for a beginner to set up a dinghy regatta and score it and use
built in help. All my queries listed above are basic to any regatta.
Could we get back to basics please?
Thanks Donald
Hello Huw: Thank you for the reply. I have to add a few comments in
return.
- Division. The problem does not lie in the competitor entry fields.
Instead, you will see that the actual column doesn’t appear in the
spreadsheet. That is what is annoying. You think you are setting up a
Division but you can’t see it. Not only that, you can’t get it back!
Only by setting Pro Mode. It shouldn’t be this way. Tab entry sequence
- “I do not understand the order myself.” Well, if you and Colin don’t
understand it, fix it. More on this anon.
- BFD. The BFD provided by Sailwave is Discardable as it should be.
Sailwave also needs a non discardable BFD. A non Discard is for a
repeat offender. I do not know why your Sailwave is set up as non
Discardable in the first instance. Non discard is not the basic Black
Flag. Second point. How do I set my new Code permanently so it is
available to subsequent regattas? The user think they are setting it up
to go in the list of available codes but it isn’t there. Fix it. - I should have said “Rearrange recorded places after inserting a
Finish.” This is a perceptual thing. It may be clear to you who has
lived with Sailwave and uses it frequently and are clearly in touch
with Colin. But for people out in the bay bobbing about our only
recourse is the Forum. - I agree that you can set up complex starts and this is invaluable
and one thing that sets Sailwave apart. But perhaps complex starts
should be in Pro Mode. It is a problem to decide on how plain vanilla
the Basic mode should be. I take your point that the problems of e.g.
the current Topper regatta needs many bells and whistles. But in the
regattas I score this degree of complexity is unnecessary. Maybe at
next years World’s I will need to step up my skills. But simple starts
have sufficed for North American and Canadian championships as well as
Club regattas.
Perhaps, and this would probably require more effort from Colin, rather
that Simple and Pro Modes Sailwave should provide setups like this: 1.
Dinghy regatta with Fleets and Divisions. 2. More complex regattas of
the type you outline in your response and like what the Topper people
need. 3. Handicap racing, pick a handicap system and apply it to a
regatta. 4. More complex handicap racing with ability to set up a
season long series with complex drops, peculiarities and so on. So the
dinghy regatta would automatically set up the fleets to be
automatically dealt with by SNW and would apply to all starts - also
allowing fleets divided by division or class. Dinghy regatta 2 would
present the more complex range of setups like those detailed in your
reply and be more like Pro.
The “long standing problem of selecting codes without a mouse.” Here we
are back to to the fact that Sailwave is expanding to cater to what I
called “esoteric scoring systems” while the core functions fail to
work properly.
Now we are back to “Colin does this after work and doesn’t get paid.”
What would happen if Colin did get paid? Not getting paid and doing it
in his spare time does not absolve him from fixing basic problems. In
fact Colin would have more time if he did fix the basics. But the Forum
is all about scoring methods peculiar to small numbers of users. I
wouldn’t include the Topper problem in this because different colour
fleets are a fundamental part of dinghy racing. Would Colin go back and
fix some of the basic problems if he were paid? A difficulty is that
those close to Sailwave don’t see the problems anymore. You probably
work in Pro mode anyway and therefore miss the Division problem.
Regarding the, to paraphrase, stop whining and write the basic manual.
I would happily write a manual. But can you imagine what it will be
like? I would ignore all the keelboat handicapping stuff for I know
nout about it! However, the basics of Setting up a race series,
Competitor Data Entry with an explanation of its idiosyncrasies, SNW
and its idiosyncrasies ( don’t bother hitting the Tab key it wont get
you anywhere useful), How to Edit results, How to Publish
results and its idiosyncrasies. I know in Linux a variety of people
contribute to manuals but I don’t know how they do it. You would need
an Editor in Chief to whom the sections are submitted. In our case more
work for Colin. But you realize that a lot of space would be devoted to
explaining away the weirdnesses that have remained in Sailwave for
years. Instead, how difficult would it be to insert the Help into the
program itself? Alternatively, incorporating a popup up balloon when
you mouse over, for example, “Rearrange recorded places” saying “Hit
this button after you manually change a competitor result in a race.”
This type of modification to the program is a lot easier to accomplish
that the production of a manual. Suggestions would have to come from
users and not from those close to Sailwave! For many problems this type
of short explanation is all that is required.
But I return to my basic criticism. Sailwave is expanding exponentially
to do more things. There is nothing wrong with this but it is at the
expense of the core issues which have not been touched in years. Colin
is probably like the rest of us, the challenge of the new things is
more interesting than going over the same old, same old, to burnish it.
Donald
Huw Pearce wrote:
···
mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of donald.wyllie
Sent: 22 July 2008 16:33
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] A Bunch of problems with Sailwave
Thanks
Huw,
Its
seams a good trick. I’ll give it a try.
Best
regards,
Carlos
Neto
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] Em nome de Huw Pearce
···
De: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Enviada em: quarta-feira, 23 de Julho de 2008 13:22
Para: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Assunto: RE: [sailwave] Sub-fleet sharing same scoring from overall -
How to get separate reports ?
Carlos,
I have just done a little experiment and I think what you want can
be done.
When you want to produce a set of results for all competitors you
will click on the score series button the toolbar and make sure that the radio
button beside 'Score all competitors as one group" is set. Once the
calculation has been done publish the results.
To produce a set for the Juniors with out recalculating their
points, i.e. they keep the points from the overall series, follow the same
steps as above BUT BEFORE clicking the OK button check the box ‘Sort results by
field after scoring’ this will separate the competitors. This presumes you have
a field which tags the Junior competitors for example Fleet. Unfortunately you
will then have to cut the paper if you only want the Junior results.
Hope his helps.
Kind regards,
Huw
-----Original Message-----
From: carlos.neto [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of carlos.neto
Sent: 23 July 2008 12:50
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Sub-fleet sharing same scoring from overall - How to
get separate reports ?
Hi,
I’m
new to Sailwave, so probably the question I’m going to ask is trivial or
was answered before.
I’m
in the organization of an international Regatta (Vaurien World Championship)
and we will have on fleet with one sub-fleet racing together (Junior).
The
Junior sub-fleet classification will be extracted directly from the overall
(not recalculated only for them), and we have to publish both the Overall and
the Junior separately.
I’ve
tried several methods in Saiwave to get both reports (Overall and Junior), but
without success.
Any
idea how that can be done ?
Best
regards,
Carlos
Neto
No virus
found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.5/1568 - Release Date: 7/23/2008 6:55
AM
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found in this incoming message.
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06:55
Huw
I think you are being too polite
Mike
Hi Carlos, Huw gave you the correct method for
extracting fleet results from overall results - an alternative is to
rescore as fleets but that can give slightly different results. It
depends on your SIs in this respect which are often vague on the issue
- the writer having a specific method in mind and not relising there
is more than one interpretation.
Regards
Colin
Carlos Neto wrote:
···
www.sailwave.comsailwave@yahoogroups.commailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.comEm nome de
Enviada em:
**Para:**sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Assunto:
mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.comOn
Behalf Of
Sent:
**To:**sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:http://www.avg.com
http://www.avg.com
http://www.avg.com
Hi
Colin,
The
method of Colin works for what is intended, because the results should
not be rescored for that sub-fleet.
I
found that you can even select a number of crews to be considered on the results
sheet, so you don’t have to cut the paper.
The
only problem is that you have to change manually the title text.
Regards,
Carlos
Neto
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] Em nome de Colin Jenkins
···
De: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Enviada em: quinta-feira, 24 de Julho de 2008 08:49
Para: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Assunto: Re: RES: [sailwave] Sub-fleet sharing same scoring from overall
- How to get separate reports ?
Hi Carlos, Huw gave you the
correct method for extracting fleet results from overall results - an
alternative is to rescore as fleets but that can give slightly different
results. It depends on your SIs in this respect which are often vague on
the issue - the writer having a specific method in mind and not relising
there is more than one interpretation.
Regards
Colin
Carlos Neto wrote:
Thanks Huw,
Its seams a good trick. I’ll give it a try.
Best regards,
Carlos Neto
De: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]
Em nome de Huw Pearce
Enviada em: quarta-feira, 23 de Julho de 2008 13:22
Para: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Assunto: RE: [sailwave] Sub-fleet sharing same scoring from overall -
How to get separate reports ?
Carlos,
I have just done a little experiment and I
think what you want can be done.
When you want to produce a set of results
for all competitors you will click on the score series button the toolbar and
make sure that the radio button beside 'Score all competitors as one
group" is set. Once the calculation has been done publish the results.
To produce a set for the Juniors with out
recalculating their points, i.e. they keep the points from the overall series,
follow the same steps as above BUT BEFORE clicking the OK button check the box
‘Sort results by field after scoring’ this will separate the competitors. This
presumes you have a field which tags the Junior competitors for example Fleet.
Unfortunately you will then have to cut the paper if you only want the Junior
results.
Hope his helps.
Kind regards,
Huw
-----Original Message-----
From: carlos.neto [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of carlos.neto
Sent: 23 July 2008 12:50
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Sub-fleet sharing same scoring from overall - How to
get separate reports ?
Hi,
I’m
new to Sailwave, so probably the question I’m going to ask is trivial or
was answered before.
I’m
in the organization of an international Regatta (Vaurien World Championship)
and we will have on fleet with one sub-fleet racing together (Junior).
The
Junior sub-fleet classification will be extracted directly from the overall
(not recalculated only for them), and we have to publish both the Overall and
the Junior separately.
I’ve
tried several methods in Saiwave to get both reports (Overall and Junior), but
without success.
Any
idea how that can be done ?
Best
regards,
Carlos
Neto
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.5/1568 - Release Date: 7/23/2008 6:55
AM
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.5/1568 - Release Date: 23-07-2008 06:55
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - [http://www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com)
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.5/1568 - Release Date: 23/07/2008 06:55
No virus
found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.5/1569 - Release Date: 23-07-2008
13:31
Donald
Re your item 2 “Sailwave also needs a non discardable BFD”
Appendix A11 of the Rules of Sailing defines Disqualification codes as
BFD Disqualification under rule 30.3
DNE Disqualification (other than DGM) not excludable under rule
89.3(b)
I think you will find that the standards SW codes conform to this appendix
On a general point, you may wish to bear in mind that Sailwave has been developed by Colin in his spare time
I know that Colin has always been very willing to respond quickly to requests from users, on many occasions, to the detriment of his family life.
I am sure that other users share some of your frustrations but tend to put up with them as taking everything into consideration, Sailwave has made life soooo much easier for results officers and ITS FREE!!
Having been a long time member of SUG, it’s amazing how many users think that the requirements of their club and methods of racing/scoring are common to all
Initially, we thought that this was a problem in the UK, where SW was first used. Multiply these issues ‘n’ fold as SW becomes one of the most used results programs in the world & I am sure you will understand the difficulties of meeting everyone’s requirements
If you are patient, I suspect that many of your points will eventually get into the development plan.
Colin has to work on the basis that priorities for the development plan are determined by the number of users who ask for that improvement.
Keep an eye on what gets into the development program and I am certain that you will see all you good ideas appearing
Regards
Ralph
···
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Donald Wyllie
Sent: 23 July 2008 16:53
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A Bunch of problems with Sailwave
Hello Huw: Thank you for the reply. I have to add a few comments in return.
- Division. The problem does not lie in the competitor entry fields. Instead, you will see that the actual column doesn’t appear in the spreadsheet. That is what is annoying. You think you are setting up a Division but you can’t see it. Not only that, you can’t get it back! Only by setting Pro Mode. It shouldn’t be this way. Tab entry sequence - “I do not understand the order myself.” Well, if you and Colin don’t understand it, fix it. More on this anon.
- BFD. The BFD provided by Sailwave is Discardable as it should be. Sailwave also needs a non discardable BFD. A non Discard is for a repeat offender. I do not know why your Sailwave is set up as non Discardable in the first instance. Non discard is not the basic Black Flag. Second point. How do I set my new Code permanently so it is available to subsequent regattas? The user think they are setting it up to go in the list of available codes but it isn’t there. Fix it.
- I should have said “Rearrange recorded places after inserting a Finish.” This is a perceptual thing. It may be clear to you who has lived with Sailwave and uses it frequently and are clearly in touch with Colin. But for people out in the bay bobbing about our only recourse is the Forum.
- I agree that you can set up complex starts and this is invaluable and one thing that sets Sailwave apart. But perhaps complex starts should be in Pro Mode. It is a problem to decide on how plain vanilla the Basic mode should be. I take your point that the problems of e.g. the current Topper regatta needs many bells and whistles. But in the regattas I score this degree of complexity is unnecessary. Maybe at next years World’s I will need to step up my skills. But simple starts have sufficed for North American and Canadian championships as well as Club regattas.
Perhaps, and this would probably require more effort from Colin, rather that Simple and Pro Modes Sailwave should provide setups like this: 1. Dinghy regatta with Fleets and Divisions. 2. More complex regattas of the type you outline in your response and like what the Topper people need. 3. Handicap racing, pick a handicap system and apply it to a regatta. 4. More complex handicap racing with ability to set up a season long series with complex drops, peculiarities and so on. So the dinghy regatta would automatically set up the fleets to be automatically dealt with by SNW and would apply to all starts - also allowing fleets divided by division or class. Dinghy regatta 2 would present the more complex range of setups like those detailed in your reply and be more like Pro.
The “long standing problem of selecting codes without a mouse.” Here we are back to to the fact that Sailwave is expanding to cater to what I called “esoteric scoring systems” while the core functions fail to work properly.
Now we are back to “Colin does this after work and doesn’t get paid.” What would happen if Colin did get paid? Not getting paid and doing it in his spare time does not absolve him from fixing basic problems. In fact Colin would have more time if he did fix the basics. But the Forum is all about scoring methods peculiar to small numbers of users. I wouldn’t include the Topper problem in this because different colour fleets are a fundamental part of dinghy racing. Would Colin go back and fix some of the basic problems if he were paid? A difficulty is that those close to Sailwave don’t see the problems anymore. You probably work in Pro mode anyway and therefore miss the Division problem.
Regarding the, to paraphrase, stop whining and write the basic manual. I would happily write a manual. But can you imagine what it will be like? I would ignore all the keelboat handicapping stuff for I know nout about it! However, the basics of Setting up a race series, Competitor Data Entry with an explanation of its idiosyncrasies, SNW and its idiosyncrasies ( don’t bother hitting the Tab key it wont get you anywhere useful), How to Edit results, How to Publish
results and its idiosyncrasies. I know in Linux a variety of people contribute to manuals but I don’t know how they do it. You would need an Editor in Chief to whom the sections are submitted. In our case more work for Colin. But you realize that a lot of space would be devoted to explaining away the weirdnesses that have remained in Sailwave for years. Instead, how difficult would it be to insert the Help into the program itself? Alternatively, incorporating a popup up balloon when you mouse over, for example, “Rearrange recorded places” saying “Hit this button after you manually change a competitor result in a race.” This type of modification to the program is a lot easier to accomplish that the production of a manual. Suggestions would have to come from users and not from those close to Sailwave! For many problems this type of short explanation is all that is required.
But I return to my basic criticism. Sailwave is expanding exponentially to do more things. There is nothing wrong with this but it is at the expense of the core issues which have not been touched in years. Colin is probably like the rest of us, the challenge of the new things is more interesting than going over the same old, same old, to burnish it.
Donald
Huw Pearce wrote:
Donald,
I am pleased that you like Sailwave, not withstanding the problems you have encountered.
Sorry, I have to take issue with some of the points you have made, I will take your points one by one.
- I have just created a brand new Sailwave file from a Sailwave pro forma - Standard Appendix A. When I open the competitor details I see fields for both Fleet & Division without Pro mode being set. So not sure what is happening for you here
I agree that the order of data entry by using the TAB key could possibly be more logically ordered and I do not understand the order myself. I will take a more detailed look later.
- BFD - in the new series I just created, and as far as I recall in all Sailwave files I have created, BFD scoring code is one of the predefined codes; it is always top of the list in my Sailwave files
As it is a built-in scoring code it should appear in every Sailwave file you create, no adding for every regatta
- The text works for me, but I have no problem with it being extended.
- There is a good reason why one has to say what races the starts apply to; when the total entry is split into different coloured groups (red, green, blue & yellow) which race against each other in a round-robin way, i.e.
Race 1 Start 1 - red & green start together & race together
Race 1 Start 2 - blue & yellow
Race 2 Start 1 - red & blue
Race 2 Start 2 - green & yellow
Race 3 Start 1 - red & yellow
Race 3 Start 1 - green & blue
Race 4 Start 1 - blue & yellow
Race 4 Start 2 - red & green
Race 5 Start 1 - green & yellow
Race 5 Start 2 - red & blue
Race 6 Start 1 - green & blue
Race 6 Start 2 - red & yellow
Regarding selecting scoring codes without the mouse, I agree. This is a long standing problem.
What appears in Lit & Pro is an interesting one, as different people have different perceptions
One could argue that handicapping should be in Lite not Pro as, at least here in the UK, many clubs run handicap racing, with class results extracted when required. I have suggested to Colin that he perhaps adds a 3rd grouping option, but that would lead to more comments
Please remember that Colin the author and sole coder of Sailwave has a normal day job and does Sailwave in his spare time between family commitments and going sailing himself. This is why people like myself give something back by answering peoples questions here in the Sailwave forum. Sailwave is, in my opinion, still the most flexible and easy to use scoring system and I have tried many different ones over the years. Yes it does take to time to understand; just like any software - I am still trying with Microsoft Word, Excel etc.
Colin would be pleased for someone to help by writing a basic help file, instead of the call being for one to be written
- single class regatta
multiple class regatta with individual class starts or multiple classes on a start no handicapmultiple starts with mixed classes on start with handicap ratings applied
Kind regards,
Huw
-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]** On Behalf Of** donald.wyllie
Sent: 22 July 2008 16:33
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] A Bunch of problems with Sailwave
Hi: Another regatta and another bunch of irritations with Sailwave.
1. A dinghy regatta is pretty simple so you shouldn’t have to turn on
Pro Mode to score it. Dividing a Fleet should not require Pro mode to
make the Division column appear - and Division is virtually always
used in a dinghy regatta. Can you fix the bug?
A further problem is the disappearing cursor. Edit a new competitor
and the cursor comes up in Tally. Not very useful, for most of the
time you want to start with a sail number or helm. So you hit Tab and
the cursor disappears. Hit it again and it comes up in Bow Number.
Then it moves to Class , then disappears again. Clearly this is linked
to the columns available for viewing - but not the ones set up. It
would be much better for the data entry person if the Tab worked
sequentially down the Competitor Entry page. Being able to hide items
not used is useful as it simplifies data entry.
2. I had to set up a non discardable BFD on the water. So you need
another code in the list. I just called it BFDn. Just about manageable
on a bouncing finish boat. I assumed that this code would then appear
in my list of codes when I move to another regatta. But no it doesn’t
so I have to produce my BFDn again. Regatta specific codes - nuts to
that! Surely doing it once should be enough. So, can we have BFDn or
new codes permanently available after one generates them?
3. Line judges miss a boat in a melee - never had it happen with my
crew before. So how do you insert a finish place and then
automatically have subsequent finishers move down one position. Sure
you can do it but only after going to the Forum to find out how.
“Rearrange recorded places…” is meaningless. “Rearrange recoded
places after inserting a competitor place” would make more sense - and
there is room on the drop down to have these extra words. And there is
still no basic help file accessible from Help. This is plain vanilla
stuff that is not made clear. Users shouldn’t have to go to the Forum
to find out how to do things this simple.
4. Using SNW to score by Fleet when presented with mixed up fleets
finishing together. Surely this is absolutely basic to a regatta.
Again a help file would help. So, we go to set up scoring by Fleet and
one is presented with a complex set of operations. So each Fleet gets
a separate start. OK, seems reasonable but because I’m only a stupid
scorer it took a while to work it out. Click OK and you are done.
No you are not, for you have to say which races it applies to. Duh!
Why not have it apply to all races as the default? Most dinghy
regattas have a fixed number of fleets. Why are there “Move up and
Move Down” buttons? If they are finishing together it doesn’t matter
about Start 1, Start 2 etc. If you want additional complexity turn it
on in Pro mode.
It would also be useful to find a way of inserting a Code without
having to grab the mouse. I had hoped that when presented with a Place
in SNW, hitting Tab would open the Code list. Then just use the
up/down keys to find the Code and hit Enter. Of course if you want
BFDn you wont find it in the next regatta!
I think this is enough. A basic problem is that Colin and Huw et. al.
seem to spend more time setting up esoteric scoring systems for on
again off again keelboat races and used by one Club. The basics aren’t
even working well.
Now you may get the impression that I don’t think much of Sailwave.
But I do think it is good and have said so for many years. But what
hasn’t changed in these many years are some of these basic problems.
I’ve been following Sailwave for about 8 years and there is still no
way for a beginner to set up a dinghy regatta and score it and use
built in help. All my queries listed above are basic to any regatta.
Could we get back to basics please?
Thanks Donald
Hi Ralph: The real problem is that if I wish to insert Codes, even if
it is OTL or DFL, it would be very useful to be able to do this and
keep it. The fact that BFDn is not in your RRS does not help me when
the Committee boat says “Give Sn 187562 a BFDn in Race 6.” As a scorer
you do what you are told! So, as I said to Huw, it would be nice to be
able to add codes to “my” Sailwave and have them available. Sailwave does
provide all the codes, but that is not the point. This suggestion is in
a different league and minor compared to the “basic” problems. It is
also easy to fix.
Sailwave being free is a red herring. Software should work. If it is
lack of money that is holding up the correction of basic flaws - and I
doubt it - then maybe more users should anti up. And furthermore I’m
not asking for anything wild. Data entry and SNW are about as basic as
you can get.
Donald
···
mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups. com]
On Behalf Of Donald Wyllie
Sent: 23 July 2008 16:53
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A Bunch of problems with Sailwave
mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of donald.wyllie
Sent: 22 July 2008 16:33
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] A Bunch of problems with Sailwave
Hi Ralph: I’m a scorer so this is for clarification and general
interest and has nothing to do with Sailwave. As I’ve said, if the
Committee boat tells me to give a DFL I do it! My reading, and I’m not
an expert, suggests that DNE covers areas under rule 89.3. But 89.3 is
about disqualification not covered by Rule 2, “rule 30.3’s
next- to- last sentence,” rule 42 and so on. So 89.3 is about
disqualification not covered by these rules. Now 30.3 has two types of
disqualification mentioned. The first is just a discardable BFD. The
second occurs in the penultimate sentence and concerns boats that sail
the course when they are under black flag. If they do they get a non
discardable disqualification. This doesn’t come under 89.3. But there
is no code for this in the RRS. So for clarity a BFDn, or whatever you
want to call it, helps readers of results see what is going on. In SW
the useful little box below the results tables allows one to explain
the codes used. It is very useful and I thought it was great that I
could explain what this code meant. Maybe next year there will be a few
extra codes and BFDn will be one of them.
···
mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups. com]
On Behalf Of Donald Wyllie
Sent: 23 July 2008 16:53
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A Bunch of problems with Sailwave
mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of donald.wyllie
Sent: 22 July 2008 16:33
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] A Bunch of problems with Sailwave
A BFD under the second sentence is scored DNE.
RRS 89.3(a) says use Appendix A to score unless you specify something else in the NOR. You can specify in the NOR that there shall be no discards, in which case 89.3(b) does not apply.
RRS 89.3(b) defines how to score the race if the scoring system allows for discards and the competitor has a DNE. You can’t throw out the DNE so what do you throw out?
RRS 30.3 “… If she does so, her disqualification shall not be excluded in calculating her series score. If this rule applies rule 29.1 does not.”
RRS A11 “DNE Disqualification (other than DGM) not excludable under rule 89.3(b)”
RRS 89.3(b) “When a scoring system provides for excluding one or more race scores from a boat’s series score, the score for disqualification under rule 2; rule 30.3’s next-to-last sentence; rule 42 if rule 67, P2.2 or P2.3 applies; or rule 69.1(b)(2) shall not be excluded. The next-worse score shall be excluded instead.”
The scoring
Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com
···
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: Donald.Wyllie@smu.ca
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 22:08:56 -0300
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A Bunch of problems with Sailwave
Hi Ralph: I’m a scorer so this is for clarification and general interest and has nothing to do with Sailwave. As I’ve said, if the Committee boat tells me to give a DFL I do it! My reading, and I’m not an expert, suggests that DNE covers areas under rule 89.3. But 89.3 is about disqualification not covered by Rule 2, “rule 30.3’s next- to- last sentence,” rule 42 and so on. So 89.3 is about disqualification not covered by these rules. Now 30.3 has two types of disqualification mentioned. The first is just a discardable BFD. The second occurs in the penultimate sentence and concerns boats that sail the course when they are under black flag. If they do they get a non discardable disqualification. This doesn’t come under 89.3. But there is no code for this in the RRS. So for clarity a BFDn, or whatever you want to call it, helps readers of results see what is going on. In SW the useful little box below the results tables allows one to explain the codes used. It is very useful and I thought it was great that I could explain what this code meant. Maybe next year there will be a few extra codes and BFDn will be one of them.
On the other hand I could be totally wrong! Donald Donald Wyllie wrote:
Hi Ralph: The real problem is that if I wish to insert Codes, even if it is OTL or DFL, it would be very useful to be able to do this and keep it. The fact that BFDn is not in your RRS does not help me when the Committee boat says “Give Sn 187562 a BFDn in Race 6.” As a scorer you do what you are told! So, as I said to Huw, it would be nice to be able to add codes to “my” Sailwave and have them available. Sailwave does provide all the codes, but that is not the point. This suggestion is in a different league and minor compared to the “basic” problems. It is also easy to fix.
Sailwave being free is a red herring. Software should work. If it is lack of money that is holding up the correction of basic flaws - and I doubt it - then maybe more users should anti up. And furthermore I’m not asking for anything wild. Data entry and SNW are about as basic as you can get.
DonaldDonald
Re your item 2 “Sailwave also needs a non discardable BFD”
Appendix A11 of the Rules of Sailing defines Disqualification codes as
BFD Disqualification under rule 30.3
DNE Disqualification (other than DGM) not excludable under rule 89.3(b)
I think you will find that the standards SW codes conform to this appendix
On a general point, you may wish to bear in mind that Sailwave has been developed by Colin in his spare time
I know that Colin has always been very willing to respond quickly to requests from users, on many occasions, to the detriment of his family life.
I am sure that other users share some of your frustrations but tend to put up with them as taking everything into consideration, Sailwave has made life soooo much easier for results officers and ITS FREE!!
Having been a long time member of SUG, it’s amazing how many users think that the requirements of their club and methods of racing/scoring are common to all
Initially, we thought that this was a problem in the UK, where SW was first used. Multiply these issues ‘n’ fold as SW becomes one of the most used results programs in the world & I am sure you will understand the difficulties of meeting everyone’s requirements
If you are patient, I suspect that many of your points will eventually get into the development plan.
Colin has to work on the basis that priorities for the development plan are determined by the number of users who ask for that improvement.
Keep an eye on what gets into the development program and I am certain that you will see all you good ideas appearing
Regards
Ralph
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Donald Wyllie
Sent: 23 July 2008 16:53
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A Bunch of problems with Sailwave
Hello Huw: Thank you for the reply. I have to add a few comments in return.
- Division. The problem does not lie in the competitor entry fields. Instead, you will see that the actual column doesn’t appear in the spreadsheet. That is what is annoying. You think you are setting up a Division but you can’t see it. Not only that, you can’t get it back! Only by setting Pro Mode. It shouldn’t be this way. Tab entry sequence - “I do not understand the order myself.” Well, if you and Colin don’t understand it, fix it. More on this anon.
- BFD. The BFD provided by Sailwave is Discardable as it should be. Sailwave also needs a non discardable BFD. A non Discard is for a repeat offender. I do not know why your Sailwave is set up as non Discardable in the first instance. Non discard is not the basic Black Flag. Second point. How do I set my new Code permanently so it is available to subsequent regattas? The user think they are setting it up to go in the list of available codes but it isn’t there. Fix it.
- I should have said “Rearrange recorded places after inserting a Finish.” This is a perceptual thing. It may be clear to you who has lived with Sailwave and uses it frequently and are clearly in touch with Colin. But for people out in the bay bobbing about our only recourse is the Forum.
- I agree that you can set up complex starts and this is invaluable and one thing that sets Sailwave apart. But perhaps complex starts should be in Pro Mode. It is a problem to decide on how plain vanilla the Basic mode should be. I take your point that the problems of e.g. the current Topper regatta needs many bells and whistles. But in the regattas I score this degree of complexity is unnecessary. Maybe at next years World’s I will need to step up my skills. But simple starts have sufficed for North American and Canadian championships as well as Club regattas.
Perhaps, and this would probably require more effort from Colin, rather that Simple and Pro Modes Sailwave should provide setups like this: 1. Dinghy regatta with Fleets and Divisions. 2. More complex regattas of the type you outline in your response and like what the Topper people need. 3. Handicap racing, pick a handicap system and apply it to a regatta. 4. More complex handicap racing with ability to set up a season long series with complex drops, peculiarities and so on. So the dinghy regatta would automatically set up the fleets to be automatically dealt with by SNW and would apply to all starts - also allowing fleets divided by division or class. Dinghy regatta 2 would present the more complex range of setups like those detailed in your reply and be more like Pro.
The “long standing problem of selecting codes without a mouse.” Here we are back to to the fact that Sailwave is expanding to cater to what I called “esoteric scoring systems” while the core functions fail to work properly.
Now we are back to “Colin does this after work and doesn’t get paid.” What would happen if Colin did get paid? Not getting paid and doing it in his spare time does not absolve him from fixing basic problems. In fact Colin would have more time if he did fix the basics. But the Forum is all about scoring methods peculiar to small numbers of users. I wouldn’t include the Topper problem in this because different colour fleets are a fundamental part of dinghy racing. Would Colin go back and fix some of the basic problems if he were paid? A difficulty is that those close to Sailwave don’t see the problems anymore. You probably work in Pro mode anyway and therefore miss the Division problem.
Regarding the, to paraphrase, stop whining and write the basic manual. I would happily write a manual. But can you imagine what it will be like? I would ignore all the keelboat handicapping stuff for I know nout about it! However, the basics of Setting up a race series, Competitor Data Entry with an explanation of its idiosyncrasies, SNW and its idiosyncrasies ( don’t bother hitting the Tab key it wont get you anywhere useful), How to Edit results, How to Publish results and its idiosyncrasies. I know in Linux a variety of people contribute to manuals but I don’t know how they do it. You would need an Editor in Chief to whom the sections are submitted. In our case more work for Colin. But you realize that a lot of space would be devoted to explaining away the weirdnesses that have remained in Sailwave for years. Instead, how difficult would it be to insert the Help into the program itself? Alternatively, incorporating a popup up balloon when you mouse over, for example, “Rearrange recorded places” saying “Hit this button after you manually change a competitor result in a race.” This type of modification to the program is a lot easier to accomplish that the production of a manual. Suggestions would have to come from users and not from those close to Sailwave! For many problems this type of short explanation is all that is required.
But I return to my basic criticism. Sailwave is expanding exponentially to do more things. There is nothing wrong with this but it is at the expense of the core issues which have not been touched in years. Colin is probably like the rest of us, the challenge of the new things is more interesting than going over the same old, same old, to burnish it.
DonaldHuw Pearce wrote:
Donald,
I am pleased that you like Sailwave, not withstanding the problems you have encountered.
Sorry, I have to take issue with some of the points you have made, I will take your points one by one.
- I have just created a brand new Sailwave file from a Sailwave pro forma - Standard Appendix A. When I open the competitor details I see fields for both Fleet & Division without Pro mode being set. So not sure what is happening for you here
I agree that the order of data entry by using the TAB key could possibly be more logically ordered and I do not understand the order myself. I will take a more detailed look later.
- BFD - in the new series I just created, and as far as I recall in all Sailwave files I have created, BFD scoring code is one of the predefined codes; it is always top of the list in my Sailwave files
As it is a built-in scoring code it should appear in every Sailwave file you create, no adding for every regatta
- The text works for me, but I have no problem with it being extended.
- There is a good reason why one has to say what races the starts apply to; when the total entry is split into different coloured groups (red, green, blue & yellow) which race against each other in a round-robin way, i.e.
Race 1 Start 1 - red & green start together & race together
Race 1 Start 2 - blue & yellow
Race 2 Start 1 - red & blue
Race 2 Start 2 - green & yellow
Race 3 Start 1 - red & yellow
Race 3 Start 1 - green & blue
Race 4 Start 1 - blue & yellow
Race 4 Start 2 - red & green
Race 5 Start 1 - green & yellow
Race 5 Start 2 - red & blue
Race 6 Start 1 - green & blue
Race 6 Start 2 - red & yellow
Regarding selecting scoring codes without the mouse, I agree. This is a long standing problem.
What appears in Lit & Pro is an interesting one, as different people have different perceptions
One could argue that handicapping should be in Lite not Pro as, at least here in the UK, many clubs run handicap racing, with class results extracted when required. I have suggested to Colin that he perhaps adds a 3rd grouping option, but that would lead to more comments
Please remember that Colin the author and sole coder of Sailwave has a normal day job and does Sailwave in his spare time between family commitments and going sailing himself. This is why people like myself give something back by answering peoples questions here in the Sailwave forum. Sailwave is, in my opinion, still the most flexible and easy to use scoring system and I have tried many different ones over the years. Yes it does take to time to understand; just like any software - I am still trying with Microsoft Word, Excel etc.
Colin would be pleased for someone to help by writing a basic help file, instead of the call being for one to be written
- single class regatta
- multiple class regatta with individual class starts or multiple classes on a start no handicap
- multiple starts with mixed classes on start with handicap ratings applied
FYI - I use Sailwave to score everything from single class, single start regattas through club handicap racing using multiple starts with different series scoring and handicap systems, to International events with daily flight rotation and medal races; so I don’t think I just concentrate on “spend more time setting up esoteric scoring systems for on again off again keelboat races and used by one Club”. However, I can see how that might be a perception from reading the questions I respond to on this forum.
Kind regards,
Huw
-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of donald.wyllie
Sent: 22 July 2008 16:33
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] A Bunch of problems with Sailwave
Hi: Another regatta and another bunch of irritations with Sailwave.
- A dinghy regatta is pretty simple so you shouldn’t have to turn on
Pro Mode to score it. Dividing a Fleet should not require Pro mode to
make the Division column appear - and Division is virtually always
used in a dinghy regatta. Can you fix the bug?
A further problem is the disappearing cursor. Edit a new competitor
and the cursor comes up in Tally. Not very useful, for most of the
time you want to start with a sail number or helm. So you hit Tab and
the cursor disappears. Hit it again and it comes up in Bow Number.
Then it moves to Class , then disappears again. Clearly this is linked
to the columns available for viewing - but not the ones set up. It
would be much better for the data entry person if the Tab worked
sequentially down the Competitor Entry page. Being able to hide items
not used is useful as it simplifies data entry.- I had to set up a non discardable BFD on the water. So you need
another code in the list. I just called it BFDn. Just about manageable
on a bouncing finish boat. I assumed that this code would then appear
in my list of codes when I move to another regatta. But no it doesn’t
so I have to produce my BFDn again. Regatta specific codes - nuts to
that! Surely doing it once should be enough. So, can we have BFDn or
new codes permanently available after one generates them?- Line judges miss a boat in a melee - never had it happen with my
crew before. So how do you insert a finish place and then
automatically have subsequent finishers move down one position. Sure
you can do it but only after going to the Forum to find out how.
“Rearrange recorded places…” is meaningless. “Rearrange recoded
places after inserting a competitor place” would make more sense - and
there is room on the drop down to have these extra words. And there is
still no basic help file accessible from Help. This is plain vanilla
stuff that is not made clear. Users shouldn’t have to go to the Forum
to find out how to do things this simple.- Using SNW to score by Fleet when presented with mixed up fleets
finishing together. Surely this is absolutely basic to a regatta.
Again a help file would help. So, we go to set up scoring by Fleet and
one is presented with a complex set of operations. So each Fleet gets
a separate start. OK, seems reasonable but because I’m only a stupid
scorer it took a while to work it out. Click OK and you are done.
No you are not, for you have to say which races it applies to. Duh!
Why not have it apply to all races as the default? Most dinghy
regattas have a fixed number of fleets. Why are there “Move up and
Move Down” buttons? If they are finishing together it doesn’t matter
about Start 1, Start 2 etc. If you want additional complexity turn it
on in Pro mode.
It would also be useful to find a way of inserting a Code without
having to grab the mouse. I had hoped that when presented with a Place
in SNW, hitting Tab would open the Code list. Then just use the
up/down keys to find the Code and hit Enter. Of course if you want
BFDn you wont find it in the next regatta!
I think this is enough. A basic problem is that Colin and Huw et. al.
seem to spend more time setting up esoteric scoring systems for on
again off again keelboat races and used by one Club. The basics aren’t
even working well.
Now you may get the impression that I don’t think much of Sailwave.
But I do think it is good and have said so for many years. But what
hasn’t changed in these many years are some of these basic problems.
I’ve been following Sailwave for about 8 years and there is still no
way for a beginner to set up a dinghy regatta and score it and use
built in help. All my queries listed above are basic to any regatta.
Could we get back to basics please?
Thanks Donald
With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. Connect on the go.
Hi Donald
As you know Rule 89.3 says
When a scoring system provides for excluding one or more race
scores from a boat’s series score,
[1] the score for disqualification under rule 2;
[2] rule 30.3’s next-to-last sentence;
[3] rule 42 if rule 67, P2.2 or P2.3 applies; or
[4] rule 69.1(b)(2)
shall not be excluded. The next-worse score shall be excluded instead.
I am no rules expert either but as a National Race Officer, I have always interpreted this rule to mean that it DOES apply to each of the circumstances, separated by a semi-colon [I have numbered them so that it is easier to see]
Consequently, we all use DNE in the UK for these circumstances. If you think about it, having decided that there are situations where a DSQ should not be discarded, ISAF would be expected to list the code in A11??
Race officers are not always right in their rules interpretations (including me!!) & we have a team of rules experts who provide guidance on such queries
I suspect that USSA or the Canadian Authority will have similar people who you can contact
You might even be able to teach your race officers something they didn’t know
Regards
Ralph
···
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Donald Wyllie
Sent: 25 July 2008 02:09
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A Bunch of problems with Sailwave
Hi Ralph: I’m a scorer so this is for clarification and general interest and has nothing to do with Sailwave. As I’ve said, if the Committee boat tells me to give a DFL I do it! My reading, and I’m not an expert, suggests that DNE covers areas under rule 89.3. But 89.3 is about disqualification not covered by Rule 2, “rule 30.3’s next- to- last sentence,” rule 42 and so on. So 89.3 is about disqualification not covered by these rules. Now 30.3 has two types of disqualification mentioned. The first is just a discardable BFD. The second occurs in the penultimate sentence and concerns boats that sail the course when they are under black flag. If they do they get a non discardable disqualification. This doesn’t come under 89.3. But there is no code for this in the RRS. So for clarity a BFDn, or whatever you want to call it, helps readers of results see what is going on. In SW the useful little box below the results tables allows one to explain the codes used. It is very useful and I thought it was great that I could explain what this code meant. Maybe next year there will be a few extra codes and BFDn will be one of them.
On the other hand I could be totally wrong! Donald Donald Wyllie wrote:
Hi Ralph: The real problem is that if I wish to insert Codes, even if it is OTL or DFL, it would be very useful to be able to do this and keep it. The fact that BFDn is not in your RRS does not help me when the Committee boat says “Give Sn 187562 a BFDn in Race 6.” As a scorer you do what you are told! So, as I said to Huw, it would be nice to be able to add codes to “my” Sailwave and have them available. Sailwave does provide all the codes, but that is not the point. This suggestion is in a different league and minor compared to the “basic” problems. It is also easy to fix.
Sailwave being free is a red herring. Software should work. If it is lack of money that is holding up the correction of basic flaws - and I doubt it - then maybe more users should anti up. And furthermore I’m not asking for anything wild. Data entry and SNW are about as basic as you can get.
DonaldDonald
Re your item 2 " Sailwave also needs a non discardable BFD"
Appendix A11 of the Rules of Sailing defines Disqualification codes as
BFD Disqualification under rule 30.3
DNE Disqualification (other than DGM) not excludable under rule 89.3(b)
I think you will find that the standards SW codes conform to this appendix
On a general point, you may wish to bear in mind that Sailwave has been developed by Colin in his spare time
I know that Colin has always been very willing to respond quickly to requests from users, on many occasions, to the detriment of his family life.
I am sure that other users share some of your frustrations but tend to put up with them as taking everything into consideration, Sailwave has made life soooo much easier for results officers and ITS FREE!!
Having been a long time member of SUG, it's amazing how many users think that the requirements of their club and methods of racing/scoring are common to all
Initially, we thought that this was a problem in the UK, where SW was first used. Multiply these issues 'n' fold as SW becomes one of the most used results programs in the world & I am sure you will understand the difficulties of meeting everyone's requirements
If you are patient, I suspect that many of your points will eventually get into the development plan.
Colin has to work on the basis that priorities for the development plan are determined by the number of users who ask for that improvement.
Keep an eye on what gets into the development program and I am certain that you will see all you good ideas appearing
Regards
Ralph
.
donald.wyllie wrote:
Hi: Another regatta and another bunch of irritations with Sailwave. 1. A dinghy regatta is pretty simple so you shouldn't have to turn on Pro Mode to score it. Dividing a Fleet should not require Pro mode to make the Division column appear - and Division is virtually always used in a dinghy regatta. Can you fix the bug?
fixed
A further problem is the disappearing cursor. Edit a new competitor and the cursor comes up in Tally. Not very useful, for most of the time you want to start with a sail number or helm. So you hit Tab and the cursor disappears. Hit it again and it comes up in Bow Number. Then it moves to Class , then disappears again. Clearly this is linked to the columns available for viewing - but not the ones set up. It would be much better for the data entry person if the Tab worked sequentially down the Competitor Entry page. Being able to hide items not used is useful as it simplifies data entry.
fixed
2. I had to set up a non discardable BFD on the water. So you need another code in the list. I just called it BFDn. Just about manageable on a bouncing finish boat. I assumed that this code would then appear in my list of codes when I move to another regatta. But no it doesn't so I have to produce my BFDn again. Regatta specific codes - nuts to that! Surely doing it once should be enough. So, can we have BFDn or new codes permanently available after one generates them?
see the help file about portability - new codes are saved in the series
(file). the thing to do is keep useful series available as templates
for new ones (perhaps with no competitors in them) then use the
new-from-file facility (see file menu) in sailwave - i would hardly
ever expect a user to create a file from scratch.
3. Line judges miss a boat in a melee - never had it happen with my crew before. So how do you insert a finish place and then automatically have subsequent finishers move down one position. Sure you can do it but only after going to the Forum to find out how. "Rearrange recorded places.." is meaningless. "Rearrange recoded places after inserting a competitor place" would make more sense - and there is room on the drop down to have these extra words. And there is still no basic help file accessible from Help. This is plain vanilla stuff that is not made clear. Users shouldn't have to go to the Forum to find out how to do things this simple.
i’ll think about your comment but i’m struggling to make it any better
- the sailwave menus are small - i.e. not many items to flick through
to find somethign that may work…
4. Using SNW to score by Fleet when presented with mixed up fleets finishing together. Surely this is absolutely basic to a regatta. Again a help file would help. So, we go to set up scoring by Fleet and one is presented with a complex set of operations. So each Fleet gets a separate start. OK, seems reasonable but because I'm only a stupid scorer it took a while to work it out. Click OK and you are done. No you are not, for you have to say which races it applies to. Duh! Why not have it apply to all races as the default? Most dinghy regattas have a fixed number of fleets. Why are there "Move up and Move Down" buttons? If they are finishing together it doesn't matter about Start 1, Start 2 etc. If you want additional complexity turn it on in Pro mode.
i agree the starts setup is a bit basic - but - you can use the copy
starts button after setting up one race to copy those starts to the
other races. the up and down buttons are just so you can arrange the
starts in chronological order (i.e. insert one).
···
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