Not only do they need to PROMPTLY fly the “X” flag but it has to be with one sound. Failure to do either of theses and the boats scored OCS has every right to file a scoring inquiry and should be properly scored. RRS 29.1
Jaime
ISAF rule 29.1 states that flag X-ray must be displayed promptly with one sound signal. Promptly is in this case within 4 seconds.
The RC has no option but to reinstate the boats in their finishing position. ISAF case 80 might come into play if boats request redress. However, if a boat acknowledges that it was OCS and didn’t return to restart she should be scored DNE by the protest committee.
Peter
···
On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 4:27 AM, Jaime Ramon itsnoontide@yahoo.com wrote:
Not only do they need to PROMPTLY fly the “X” flag but it has to be with one sound. Failure to do either of theses and the boats scored OCS has every right to file a scoring inquiry and should be properly scored. RRS 29.1
Jaime
The rules are slightly more complicated.
In this case the Race Committee has not fulfilled their obligations to signal the OCS boats correctly under rule 29.1.
BUT that does not mean that all boats will be granted redress. Redress can only be granted if a boat's score has been made significantly worse THROUGH NO FAULT OF HER OWN (see rule 62.1) Case 79 allows for redress in this situation ONLY when a boat has no reason to believe that she crossed the starting line early. If the only way the boat could know that she was OCS was by the signals then she may be given redress.
If it was clear that she was OCS, then there are no grounds for redress. How far over the line is clearly over the line depends upon the conditions - length of line, number of boats, visibility. Generally ,a boat would have to be OCS by less than a boat length (sometimes far less) to meet the condition " have no reason".
Gordon
···
On 24/11/2013 11:27, Jaime Ramon wrote:
Not only do they need to PROMPTLY fly the "X" flag but it has to be with one sound. Failure to do either of theses and the boats scored OCS has every right to file a scoring inquiry and should be properly scored. RRS 29.1
Jaime
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Many thanks Jaime and Gordon,
Some what more complicated than I thought, but it does make sense.
Ian
···
On 24/11/2013 12:07, Gordon Davies
wrote:
The rules are slightly more
complicated.
In this case the Race Committee has not fulfilled their
obligations to signal the OCS boats correctly under rule 29.1.
BUT that does not mean that all boats will be granted redress.
Redress can only be granted if a boat’s score has been made
significantly worse THROUGH NO FAULT OF HER OWN (see rule 62.1)
Case 79 allows for redress in this situation ONLY when a boat
has no reason to believe that she crossed the starting line
early. If the only way the boat could know that she was OCS was
by the signals then she may be given redress.
If it was clear that she was OCS, then there are no grounds for
redress. How far over the line is clearly over the line depends
upon the conditions - length of line, number of boats,
visibility. Generally ,a boat would have to be OCS by less than
a boat length (sometimes far less) to meet the condition " have
no reason".
Gordon
On 24/11/2013 11:27, Jaime Ramon wrote:
Not only do they need to PROMPTLY fly the "X" flagbut it has to be with one sound. Failure to do either
of theses and the boats scored OCS has every right
to file a scoring inquiry and should be properly
scored. RRS 29.1
Jaime
This email is free from viruses and
malware because avast! Antivirus
protection is active.
ISAF Case 79 deals with the situation where the individual recall signal was not made promptly rather than completely missing. However, it does contain many points that clearly apply to the situation.
Rule 29.1 obligates the committee to signal all boats that one or more of them are on the course side of the starting line at the starting signal. Rule 28.1 and, if it applies, rule 30.1 obligate each boat to return to the pre-start side of the line and then start, but this assumes that the signals, both visual and sound, have been made. When a signal is not made it places a boat that does not realize that she was slightly over the line at the starting signal at a significant disadvantage because she can not use the information the signal provides, in combination with her observations of her position relative to other boats at the time the signal is made, to decide whether or not to return to the pre-start side of the line.
A boat that has no reason to believe that she was on the course side of the line at her starting signal has the right to assume that she started correctly unless properly signalled to the contrary. A boat can be significantly disadvantaged by a failure by the race committee in making the recall signal. That error is entirely the race committee’s fault, and not that of the disadvantaged boat.
The challenge will be deciding what redress they should be given. Letting the scores stand would penalize the boats that started correctly and they could file for redress.
Good luck.
···
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: ian.frogley@ntlworld.com
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 12:16:57 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: A question re OCS for those of you more versed in the rules than me.
Many thanks Jaime and Gordon,
Some what more complicated than I thought, but it does make sense.
Ian
On 24/11/2013 12:07, Gordon Davies wrote:
The rules are slightly morecomplicated.
In this case the Race Committee has not fulfilled theirobligations to signal the OCS boats correctly under rule 29.1.
BUT that does not mean that all boats will be granted redress.Redress can only be granted if a boat’s score has been made
significantly worse THROUGH NO FAULT OF HER OWN (see rule 62.1)
Case 79 allows for redress in this situation ONLY when a boat
has no reason to believe that she crossed the starting line
early. If the only way the boat could know that she was OCS was
by the signals then she may be given redress.If it was clear that she was OCS, then there are no grounds forredress. How far over the line is clearly over the line depends
upon the conditions - length of line, number of boats,
visibility. Generally ,a boat would have to be OCS by less than
a boat length (sometimes far less) to meet the condition " have
no reason".Gordon On 24/11/2013 11:27, Jaime Ramon wrote:
Not only do they need to PROMPTLY fly the "X" flagbut it has to be with one sound. Failure to do either
of theses and the boats scored OCS has every right
to file a scoring inquiry and should be properly
scored. RRS 29.1
Jaime
This email is free from viruses and
malware because avast! Antivirus
protection is active.
Mark,
It all comes down to deciding whether a boat had no reason to believe that she was on the course side of the line other than the signal which was not made or made incorrectly.
If the boat is 3 or 4 boat lengths over the line she will be very unlikely to get redress. If the evidence is that only centimetres of her bow were over will very probably get redress. The judgs job is to decide by how much a boat was over (usually taking the Race Officers evidence) and then decide if the boat should have known, independently of the signal whether she had started correctly or not.
An incorrect or absent signal does not automatically mean that redress will be given.
Gordon
···
On 24/11/2013 12:53, Mark Townsend wrote:
ISAF Case 79 deals with the situation where the individual recall signal was not made promptly rather than completely missing. However, it does contain many points that clearly apply to the situation.
Rule 29.1 obligates the committee to signal all boats that one or more of them are on the course side of the starting line at the starting signal. Rule 28.1 and, if it applies, rule 30.1 obligate each boat to return to the pre-start side of the line and then start, but this assumes that the signals, both visual and sound, have been made. When a signal is not made it places a boat that does not realize that she was slightly over the line at the starting signal at a significant disadvantage because she can not use the information the signal provides, in combination with her observations of her position relative to other boats at the time the signal is made, to decide whether or not to return to the pre-start side of the line.
A boat that has no reason to believe that she was on the course side of the line at her starting signal has the right to assume that she started correctly unless properly signalled to the contrary. A boat can be significantly disadvantaged by a failure by the race committee in making the recall signal. That error is entirely the race committee�s fault, and not that of the disadvantaged boat.
The challenge will be deciding what redress they should be given. Letting the scores stand would penalize the boats that started correctly and they could file for redress.
Good luck.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: ian.frogley@ntlworld.com
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 12:16:57 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: A question re OCS for those of you more versed in the rules than me.Many thanks Jaime and Gordon,
Some what more complicated than I thought, but it does make sense.Ian
On 24/11/2013 12:07, Gordon Davies wrote:
The rules are slightly more complicated.
In this case the Race Committee has not fulfilled their
obligations to signal the OCS boats correctly under rule 29.1.BUT that does not mean that all boats will be granted redress.
Redress can only be granted if a boat's score has been made
significantly worse THROUGH NO FAULT OF HER OWN (see rule 62.1)
Case 79 allows for redress in this situation ONLY when a boat has
no reason to believe that she crossed the starting line early. If
the only way the boat could know that she was OCS was by the
signals then she may be given redress.If it was clear that she was OCS, then there are no grounds for
redress. How far over the line is clearly over the line depends
upon the conditions - length of line, number of boats, visibility.
Generally ,a boat would have to be OCS by less than a boat length
(sometimes far less) to meet the condition " have no reason".Gordon
On 24/11/2013 11:27, Jaime Ramon wrote:
Not only do they need to PROMPTLY fly the "X" flag but it has
to be with one sound. Failure to do either of theses and the
boats scored OCS has every right to file a scoring inquiry and
should be properly scored. RRS 29.1
Jaime------------------------------------------------------------------------
<http://www.avast.com/>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast!
Antivirus <http://www.avast.com/> protection is active.
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com
All,
Is there not also a question of “fair sailing “ here?
If there is a video that clearly shows that some boats were over the line early at the start signal do those boats not have an obligation to withdraw from the race? If they do not are they not guilty of violating rule 2 and 3(a)?
It is clear that the RC made an error by not flying X and signalling properly. As such the sailors are entitled to seek redress for the scoring of OCS by the RC, BUT, if during the subsequent hearing it is clearly shown that the boat was OCS is it not the duty of the PC to point out that the error of the RC does not mitigate the fact that the Boat was OCS and therefore violated the starting definition and broke the rule regardless of the action of the RC?
If it had been just the word of the RC vs the competitor and the RC messed up then redress would likely be appropriate but, given that there was 3rd party proof that the competitor was OCS should the redress be denied as it was the fault of the competitor that they were OCS not due to the error of the RC? This assumes a hearing.
However even if there is no hearing re the OCS do the competitors not have an obligation to “self-police” and withdraw from a race that they know they did not start correctly? If they do not are they not possibly liable for a Part 1 penalty?
Maybe this group regarding Sailwave is not the right forum for the discussion but “just asking”.
David Sprague
Canada
···
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Davies
Sent: November-24-13 8:53 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: A question re OCS for those of you more versed in the rules than me.
Mark,
It all comes down to deciding whether a boat had no reason to believe that she was on the course side of the line other than the signal which was not made or made incorrectly.
If the boat is 3 or 4 boat lengths over the line she will be very unlikely to get redress. If the evidence is that only centimetres of her bow were over will very probably get redress. The judgs job is to decide by how much a boat was over (usually taking the Race Officers evidence) and then decide if the boat should have known, independently of the signal whether she had started correctly or not.
An incorrect or absent signal does not automatically mean that redress will be given.
Gordon
On 24/11/2013 12:53, Mark Townsend wrote:
ISAF Case 79 deals with the situation where the individual recall signal was not made promptly rather than completely missing. However, it does contain many points that clearly apply to the situation.
Rule 29.1 obligates the committee to signal all boats that one or more of them are on the course side of the starting line at the starting signal. Rule 28.1 and, if it applies, rule 30.1 obligate each boat to return to the pre-start side of the line and then start, but this assumes that the signals, both visual and sound, have been made. When a signal is not made it places a boat that does not realize that she was slightly over the line at the starting signal at a significant disadvantage because she can not use the information the signal provides, in combination with her observations of her position relative to other boats at the time the signal is made, to decide whether or not to return to the pre-start side of the line.
A boat that has no reason to believe that she was on the course side of the line at her starting signal has the right to assume that she started correctly unless properly signalled to the contrary. A boat can be significantly disadvantaged by a failure by the race committee in making the recall signal. That error is entirely the race committee’s fault, and not that of the disadvantaged boat.
The challenge will be deciding what redress they should be given. Letting the scores stand would penalize the boats that started correctly and they could file for redress.
Good luck.
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: ian.frogley@ntlworld.com
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 12:16:57 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: A question re OCS for those of you more versed in the rules than me.
Many thanks Jaime and Gordon,
Some what more complicated than I thought, but it does make sense.Ian
On 24/11/2013 12:07, Gordon Davies wrote:
The rules are slightly more complicated.
In this case the Race Committee has not fulfilled their obligations to signal the OCS boats correctly under rule 29.1.
BUT that does not mean that all boats will be granted redress. Redress can only be granted if a boat’s score has been made significantly worse THROUGH NO FAULT OF HER OWN (see rule 62.1) Case 79 allows for redress in this situation ONLY when a boat has no reason to believe that she crossed the starting line early. If the only way the boat could know that she was OCS was by the signals then she may be given redress.
If it was clear that she was OCS, then there are no grounds for redress. How far over the line is clearly over the line depends upon the conditions - length of line, number of boats, visibility. Generally ,a boat would have to be OCS by less than a boat length (sometimes far less) to meet the condition " have no reason".
Gordon
On 24/11/2013 11:27, Jaime Ramon wrote:
Not only do they need to PROMPTLY fly the “X” flag but it has to be with one sound. Failure to do either of theses and the boats scored OCS has every right to file a scoring inquiry and should be properly scored. RRS 29.1
Jaime
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
Thank you all for your thoughts. may I suggest we now close the
subject as it isn’t a Sailwave issue.
Just for the record I raised it because I don't appreciate what is
essentially poor race management.
As regards David’s comments, the line was rather too short for the
number of boats, without much room to the first mark, due to harbour
walls, shallows, moored yachts etc. So, unless you have a clear view
of the line, without others jostling for position, you are not going
to easily tell whether you are over or not.
Ian
···
On 24/11/2013 15:40, David Sprague
wrote: