App LE Add C quals+finals

Hi All,

Quals and finals and Complexity

···

===============================

I very much want to simply how Sailwave deals with App LE Add C. I
originally added options so that it could all be done in one series because
of Add C 20.4 (below) which seems to imply that there is not a fixed
qualfying score that is carried forward to finals, but rather than a
selection of qualifying and finals races is chosen depending on how many
qual/finals races have been sailed (but maybe and hopefully I have
misinterpreted that).

From experience and looking at event SIs it is by far more common to
deliniate the quals and the finals and it also makes things easier for the
competitor - they know exactly what's happening and can follow where their
score is coming from. i.e. run quals, carry forward points to finals, run
finals. This is how Huw and I set up the 29er Worlds and 49er Europeans.
It's much easier to manage because as soon as the quals are over you can
forget about those races and concentrate on the finals. Also when
publishing the qual results are largely irrelevant so you have to supress
them anyway, so two separate series seemed a common sense approach - it
worked well - and was far easier to understand/manage...

http://www.9erchamps2006.com/results/overall29er.htm
http://www.9erchamps2006.com/results/overall49er.htm

It would also greatly simplify Sailwave and event SIs because essentially
it's just two series flowing into one another each with their individual
scoring system. At present, because it's all in one file, I need all the
extra 'finals' bits in the scoring system that would in fact become
redundant (like the extra discard profile).

Because it seems to be how people are interpreting Add C 20.4, I propose to
make this simplification and add facilities to flow one series into another;
which as it happens also helps in other contexts...

In summary: score quals and get a *fixed* easy to understannd qual score
that is carried forward into a new CFWD column in another series
automatically. i.e. the other series would be setup to suck in a CFWD score
as approripate (NB: Huw - with options to use places or points!). The
sucking in would be done each time you score the finals series, so you could
go and rescore quals if needed.

20.4 (below) does not seem to deliniate the two series because it's
referring to a total number of races sailed, even though further up the text
it refers to a qualifying series and a finals series as two separate
entities... 20.4 (c) is the problem: both scores may come from the quals
*or* one may come from the quals and one from the finals - that is also a
problem because fleet sizes are different and comparing scores across
quals/finals in terms of discards and absolute points is serioously flawed
(surely?).

What do you think...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

20.4

(a) When fewer than 5 races have been completed, a boat�s regatta score will
be
the total of her race scores.

(b) When from 5 to 11 races have been completed, a boat�s regatta score will
be
the total of her race scores excluding her worst score.

(c) When 12 or more races have been completed, a boat�s regatta score will
be the
total of her race scores excluding her two worst scores. [However, no more
than one score may be excluded from the final series and only when two or
more final-series races have been completed.]

(d) For boats with scores from final-series races, ties in the regatta score
are
broken by final-series scores with no race score excluded. This changes rule
A8.

--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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20.4 (c) is the problem: both scores may come from the quals *or* one may

come from the quals and one from the finals - that is also a problem because
fleet sizes are different and comparing scores across quals/finals in terms
of discards and absolute points is seriously flawed (surely?).<<

In fact 7.3 handles that:-

"There will be the same number of fleets in the final series as there were
in the qualifying series "

However it is common to have less finals fleets - typically 4 qual then 3
finals - in which case you need quals to be a stepping stone with a
well-defined number of points carried fwd to the finals; desireable anyway
IMO and the limitation in 7.3 can be dropped...

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

···

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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I have scored the 49er Worlds in Moscow and the Dubai Junior regatta on sailwave using separate files as you suggest I found it a lot easier.

It is the tinkering with the standard instructions that causes the problems, as does a trophy race.

You just have to be always alive as to the discards and reset this in the new series depending on the number of races.

Do not forget 20.4© the difficult bit may be optional depending on the number of races on the final series.

I did not follow the comment on fleet sizes as they should be the same. 7.3 says this does it not. Possibly there may be one boat difference, unless there was a boat moved up a group because of a redress decision. I did not see this as a real problem.

I see there is always a set number of qualifying races. At the beginning you will not be sure of the number but you will know the expected number. Once this number is achieved you have a qualifying series. If the number is never achieved (bad weather) then 20.1(a) in its last sentence a lesser minimum number can be accepted.

This allows us to move to a final series for the last day.

The qualifying is then set, and we move to the new file.

The problem as I saw it was if you rescored the qualifying series it may move a boat from gold to silver etc. This could possibly happen if you developed a second discard from the qualifying series.

As long as your groups are fixed changing the scores would be o.K…

I think there may always have to be a manual overview of the final discard scoring. When you get into the second series, you would normally set for one discard. I do not see how you can automate the check to see if there should have been not a discard from the final series but a second from the qualifying. Presumably this could only be achieved by using one file.

Any comments please return to me.

Mike

Note: you couls have changed wording for the events recommended for sailwave use. The 49er event did not fillow the appendix too closely.

A new (Better!) wording could be found, and put to the RYA to make a submission for a change to the appendix LE to ISAF.

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Cc: Jerome Pels

Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 9:41 AM

Subject: [sailwave] App LE Add C quals+finals

Hi All,

Quals and finals and Complexity

I very much want to simply how Sailwave deals with App LE Add C. I
originally added options so that it could all be done in one series because
of Add C 20.4 (below) which seems to imply that there is not a fixed
qualfying score that is carried forward to finals, but rather than a
selection of qualifying and finals races is chosen depending on how many
qual/finals races have been sailed (but maybe and hopefully I have
misinterpreted that).

From experience and looking at event SIs it is by far more common to
deliniate the quals and the finals and it also makes things easier for the
competitor - they know exactly what’s happening and can follow where their
score is coming from. i.e. run quals, carry forward points to finals, run
finals. This is how Huw and I set up the 29er Worlds and 49er Europeans.
It’s much easier to manage because as soon as the quals are over you can
forget about those races and concentrate on the finals. Also when
publishing the qual results are largely irrelevant so you have to supress
them anyway, so two separate series seemed a common sense approach - it
worked well - and was far easier to understand/manage…

http://www.9erchamps2006.com/results/overall29er.htm
http://www.9erchamps2006.com/results/overall49er.htm

It would also greatly simplify Sailwave and event SIs because essentially
it’s just two series flowing into one another each with their individual
scoring system. At present, because it’s all in one file, I need all the
extra ‘finals’ bits in the scoring system that would in fact become
redundant (like the extra discard profile).

Because it seems to be how people are interpreting Add C 20.4, I propose to
make this simplification and add facilities to flow one series into another;
which as it happens also helps in other contexts…

In summary: score quals and get a fixed easy to understannd qual score
that is carried forward into a new CFWD column in another series
automatically. i.e. the other series would be setup to suck in a CFWD score
as approripate (NB: Huw - with options to use places or points!). The
sucking in would be done each time you score the finals series, so you could
go and rescore quals if needed.

20.4 (below) does not seem to deliniate the two series because it’s
referring to a total number of races sailed, even though further up the text
it refers to a qualifying series and a finals series as two separate
entities… 20.4 © is the problem: both scores may come from the quals
or one may come from the quals and one from the finals - that is also a
problem because fleet sizes are different and comparing scores across
quals/finals in terms of discards and absolute points is serioously flawed
(surely?).

What do you think…?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

20.4

(a) When fewer than 5 races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will
be
the total of her race scores.

(b) When from 5 to 11 races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will
be
the total of her race scores excluding her worst score.

© When 12 or more races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will
be the
total of her race scores excluding her two worst scores. [However, no more
than one score may be excluded from the final series and only when two or
more final-series races have been completed.]

(d) For boats with scores from final-series races, ties in the regatta score
are
broken by final-series scores with no race score excluded. This changes rule
A8.


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: 12/09/2006

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your input. I spotted the 7.3 clause after I posted. However that restriction could be removed if the AddC regatta scoring changed from Net(QF) to Net(Q) + Net(F). As I see it, all the complication comes from the fact that for one competitor 2 discards could come from Q and for another competitor one discard could come from Q and another from F. If Q was a stepping stone to F then everything is much easier for everybody IMO…

Regards,
Colin Jenkins
www.sailwave.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 14 September 2006 13:58
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] App LE Add C quals+finals

I have scored the 49er Worlds in Moscow and the Dubai Junior regatta on sailwave using separate files as you suggest I found it a lot easier.

It is the tinkering with the standard instructions that causes the problems, as does a trophy race.

You just have to be always alive as to the discards and reset this in the new series depending on the number of races.

Do not forget 20.4© the difficult bit may be optional depending on the number of races on the final series.

I did not follow the comment on fleet sizes as they should be the same. 7.3 says this does it not. Possibly there may be one boat difference, unless there was a boat moved up a group because of a redress decision. I did not see this as a real problem.

I see there is always a set number of qualifying races. At the beginning you will not be sure of the number but you will know the expected number. Once this number is achieved you have a qualifying series. If the number is never achieved (bad weather) then 20.1(a) in its last sentence a lesser minimum number can be accepted.

This allows us to move to a final series for the last day.

The qualifying is then set, and we move to the new file.

The problem as I saw it was if you rescored the qualifying series it may move a boat from gold to silver etc. This could possibly happen if you developed a second discard from the qualifying series.

As long as your groups are fixed changing the scores would be o.K…

I think there may always have to be a manual overview of the final discard scoring. When you get into the second series, you would normally set for one discard. I do not see how you can automate the check to see if there should have been not a discard from the final series but a second from the qualifying. Presumably this could only be achieved by using one file.

Any comments please return to me.

Mike

Note: you couls have changed wording for the events recommended for sailwave use. The 49er event did not fillow the appendix too closely.

A new (Better!) wording could be found, and put to the RYA to make a submission for a change to the appendix LE to ISAF.

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Cc: Jerome Pels

Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 9:41 AM

Subject: [sailwave] App LE Add C quals+finals

Hi All,

Quals and finals and Complexity

===============================

I very much want to simply how Sailwave deals with App LE Add C. I
originally added options so that it could all be done in one series because
of Add C 20.4 (below) which seems to imply that there is not a fixed
qualfying score that is carried forward to finals, but rather than a
selection of qualifying and finals races is chosen depending on how many
qual/finals races have been sailed (but maybe and hopefully I have
misinterpreted that).

From experience and looking at event SIs it is by far more common to
deliniate the quals and the finals and it also makes things easier for the
competitor - they know exactly what's happening and can follow where their
score is coming from. i.e. run quals, carry forward points to finals, run
finals. This is how Huw and I set up the 29er Worlds and 49er Europeans.
It's much easier to manage because as soon as the quals are over you can
forget about those races and concentrate on the finals. Also when
publishing the qual results are largely irrelevant so you have to supress
them anyway, so two separate series seemed a common sense approach - it
worked well - and was far easier to understand/manage...

http://www.9erchamps2006.com/results/overall29er.htm
http://www.9erchamps2006.com/results/overall49er.htm

It would also greatly simplify Sailwave and event SIs because essentially
it's just two series flowing into one another each with their individual
scoring system. At present, because it's all in one file, I need all the
extra 'finals' bits in the scoring system that would in fact become

redundant (like the extra discard profile).

Because it seems to be how people are interpreting Add C 20.4, I propose to
make this simplification and add facilities to flow one series into another;

which as it happens also helps in other contexts…

In summary: score quals and get a *fixed* easy to understannd qual score
that is carried forward into a new CFWD column in another series
automatically. i.e. the other series would be setup to suck in a CFWD score
as approripate (NB: Huw - with options to use places or points!). The
sucking in would be done each time you score the finals series, so you could

go and rescore quals if needed.

20.4 (below) does not seem to deliniate the two series because it's
referring to a total number of races sailed, even though further up the text
it refers to a qualifying series and a finals series as two separate
entities... 20.4 (c) is the problem: both scores may come from the quals
*or* one may come from the quals and one from the finals - that is also a
problem because fleet sizes are different and comparing scores across
quals/finals in terms of discards and absolute points is serioously flawed

(surely?).

What do you think...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

20.4

(a) When fewer than 5 races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will

be
the total of her race scores.

(b) When from 5 to 11 races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will

be
the total of her race scores excluding her worst score.

(c) When 12 or more races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will

be the
total of her race scores excluding her two worst scores. [However, no more
than one score may be excluded from the final series and only when two or
more final-series races have been completed.]

(d) For boats with scores from final-series races, ties in the regatta score

are
broken by final-series scores with no race score excluded. This changes rule
A8.


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: 12/09/2006

This does appear to be the problem.

Mike

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 2:32 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] App LE Add C quals+finals

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your input. I spotted the 7.3 clause after I posted. However that restriction could be removed if the AddC regatta scoring changed from Net(QF) to Net(Q) + Net(F). As I see it, all the complication comes from the fact that for one competitor 2 discards could come from Q and for another competitor one discard could come from Q and another from F. If Q was a stepping stone to F then everything is much easier for everybody IMO…

Regards,
Colin Jenkins
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 14 September 2006 13:58
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] App LE Add C quals+finals

I have scored the 49er Worlds in Moscow and the Dubai Junior regatta on sailwave using separate files as you suggest I found it a lot easier.
It is the tinkering with the standard instructions that causes the problems, as does a trophy race.
You just have to be always alive as to the discards and reset this in the new series depending on the number of races.
Do not forget 20.4(C) the difficult bit may be optional depending on the number of races on the final series.
I did not follow the comment on fleet sizes as they should be the same. 7.3 says this does it not. Possibly there may be one boat difference, unless there was a boat moved up a group because of a redress decision. I did not see this as a real problem.
I see there is always a set number of qualifying races. At the beginning you will not be sure of the number but you will know the expected number. Once this number is achieved you have a qualifying series. If the number is never achieved (bad weather) then 20.1(a) in its last sentence a lesser minimum number can be accepted.
This allows us to move to a final series for the last day.
The qualifying is then set, and we move to the new file.
The problem as I saw it was if you rescored the qualifying series it may move a boat from gold to silver etc.  This could possibly happen if you developed a second discard from the qualifying series.
As long as your groups are fixed changing the scores would be o.K..
I think there may always have to be a manual overview of the final discard scoring. When you get into the second series, you would normally set for one discard. I do not see how you can automate the check to see if there should have been not a discard from the final series but a second from the qualifying. Presumably this could only be achieved by using one file.

Any comments please return to me.

Mike

Note: you couls have changed wording for the events recommended for sailwave use. The 49er event did not fillow the appendix too closely.
A new (Better!) wording could be found, and put to the RYA to make a submission for a change to the appendix LE to ISAF.

----- Original Message -----

From: Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Cc: Jerome Pels

Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 9:41 AM

Subject: [sailwave] App LE Add C quals+finals

Hi All,

  Quals and finals and Complexity

===============================

  I very much want to simply how Sailwave deals with App LE Add C. I
  originally added options so that it could all be done in one series because
  of Add C 20.4 (below) which seems to imply that there is not a fixed
  qualfying score that is carried forward to finals, but rather than a
  selection of qualifying and finals races is chosen depending on how many
  qual/finals races have been sailed (but maybe and hopefully I have
  misinterpreted that).

  From experience and looking at event SIs it is by far more common to
  deliniate the quals and the finals and it also makes things easier for the
  competitor - they know exactly what's happening and can follow where their
  score is coming from. i.e. run quals, carry forward points to finals, run
  finals. This is how Huw and I set up the 29er Worlds and 49er Europeans.
  It's much easier to manage because as soon as the quals are over you can
  forget about those races and concentrate on the finals. Also when
  publishing the qual results are largely irrelevant so you have to supress
  them anyway, so two separate series seemed a common sense approach - it
  worked well - and was far easier to understand/manage...

http://www.9erchamps2006.com/results/overall29er.htm
http://www.9erchamps2006.com/results/overall49er.htm

  It would also greatly simplify Sailwave and event SIs because essentially
  it's just two series flowing into one another each with their individual
  scoring system. At present, because it's all in one file, I need all the
  extra 'finals' bits in the scoring system that would in fact become
  redundant (like the extra discard profile).

  Because it seems to be how people are interpreting Add C 20.4, I propose to
  make this simplification and add facilities to flow one series into another;
  which as it happens also helps in other contexts...

  In summary: score quals and get a *fixed* easy to understannd qual score
  that is carried forward into a new CFWD column in another series
  automatically. i.e. the other series would be setup to suck in a CFWD score
  as approripate (NB: Huw - with options to use places or points!). The
  sucking in would be done each time you score the finals series, so you could
  go and rescore quals if needed.

  20.4 (below) does not seem to deliniate the two series because it's
  referring to a total number of races sailed, even though further up the text
  it refers to a qualifying series and a finals series as two separate
  entities... 20.4 (c) is the problem: both scores may come from the quals
  *or* one may come from the quals and one from the finals - that is also a
  problem because fleet sizes are different and comparing scores across
  quals/finals in terms of discards and absolute points is serioously flawed

(surely?).

  What do you think...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

20.4

  (a) When fewer than 5 races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will

be
the total of her race scores.

  (b) When from 5 to 11 races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will

be
the total of her race scores excluding her worst score.

  (c) When 12 or more races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will

be the
total of her race scores excluding her two worst scores. [However, no more
than one score may be excluded from the final series and only when two or
more final-series races have been completed.]

  (d) For boats with scores from final-series races, ties in the regatta score

are
broken by final-series scores with no race score excluded. This changes rule
A8.


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: 12/09/2006

Attached is the sort of thing I mean - formally separate the series.

CJ

Hi, Colin!

I think you’re into something here!

It really sounds good to me.

regards, Martin

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Cc: Jerome Pels

Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 10:41 AM

Subject: [sailwave] App LE Add C quals+finals

Hi All,

Quals and finals and Complexity

I very much want to simply how Sailwave deals with App LE Add C. I
originally added options so that it could all be done in one series because
of Add C 20.4 (below) which seems to imply that there is not a fixed
qualfying score that is carried forward to finals, but rather than a
selection of qualifying and finals races is chosen depending on how many
qual/finals races have been sailed (but maybe and hopefully I have
misinterpreted that).

From experience and looking at event SIs it is by far more common to
deliniate the quals and the finals and it also makes things easier for the
competitor - they know exactly what’s happening and can follow where their
score is coming from. i.e. run quals, carry forward points to finals, run
finals. This is how Huw and I set up the 29er Worlds and 49er Europeans.
It’s much easier to manage because as soon as the quals are over you can
forget about those races and concentrate on the finals. Also when
publishing the qual results are largely irrelevant so you have to supress
them anyway, so two separate series seemed a common sense approach - it
worked well - and was far easier to understand/manage…

http://www.9erchamps2006.com/results/overall29er.htm
http://www.9erchamps2006.com/results/overall49er.htm

It would also greatly simplify Sailwave and event SIs because essentially
it’s just two series flowing into one another each with their individual
scoring system. At present, because it’s all in one file, I need all the
extra ‘finals’ bits in the scoring system that would in fact become
redundant (like the extra discard profile).

Because it seems to be how people are interpreting Add C 20.4, I propose to
make this simplification and add facilities to flow one series into another;
which as it happens also helps in other contexts…

In summary: score quals and get a fixed easy to understannd qual score
that is carried forward into a new CFWD column in another series
automatically. i.e. the other series would be setup to suck in a CFWD score
as approripate (NB: Huw - with options to use places or points!). The
sucking in would be done each time you score the finals series, so you could
go and rescore quals if needed.

20.4 (below) does not seem to deliniate the two series because it’s
referring to a total number of races sailed, even though further up the text
it refers to a qualifying series and a finals series as two separate
entities… 20.4 © is the problem: both scores may come from the quals
or one may come from the quals and one from the finals - that is also a
problem because fleet sizes are different and comparing scores across
quals/finals in terms of discards and absolute points is serioously flawed
(surely?).

What do you think…?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

20.4

(a) When fewer than 5 races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will
be
the total of her race scores.

(b) When from 5 to 11 races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will
be
the total of her race scores excluding her worst score.

© When 12 or more races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will
be the
total of her race scores excluding her two worst scores. [However, no more
than one score may be excluded from the final series and only when two or
more final-series races have been completed.]

(d) For boats with scores from final-series races, ties in the regatta score
are
broken by final-series scores with no race score excluded. This changes rule
A8.


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: 12/09/2006

Hi Martin et al,

Many thanks for your response.

Jerome from ISAF has let me know that Add C as it stands is required and
there are no plans (nor need) to change it; the emphasis on Q and F races
being equally liable to get into the regatta points (what he nicely calls a
"floating discard system") is deliberate.

However, it does mean that we've not identified two distinct methodologies:
the std Add C whereby Q and F are needed in the same series because the
discards "float" across both. And a varient in which Q and F are separated
with net Q being carried forward into F.

I intend to use this realisation to simplify anyway; i.e. to support the
varient more formally. It also paves the way for hierarchical series...

In short, if Net() is a function that take N scores from a series in
conformance to a discard rule then std Add C is:-

  Net(QF)

and the varient is:-

  Net(Q) + Net(F)

The shorthand seems to explain far better than all these words are... :slight_smile:

NB: the reason I started thining about this all gooes back to simplifying
Sailwave in general. The (now revised plan) is to have a new
Setup+UserInterface window that essentially makes components of Sailwave
visible like "scoring as one fleet", "scoring by fleet", "handicaps", "std
AddC support", "qualification profile", "high point series"....

That's fine but users may now knw what biots they need, so (as suggested by
users) a NewSeries setup wizard will configure that window and all the
others and races etc for you.

So expert users can just fiddle at the lowest level and new users can use
the wizard. The New+PropForma menu will allow quick selection of common
wizard routes.

That gives an out of the box Sailwave that essentially can just score a
single fleet one design race, with a consistent way forward...

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Martin B�lgen
Sent: 14 September 2006 20:19
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] App LE Add C quals+finals

Hi, Colin!

I think you're into something here!

It really sounds good to me.

regards, Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: Colin Jenkins
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Jerome Pels
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 10:41 AM
Subject: [sailwave] App LE Add C quals+finals

Hi All,

Quals and finals and Complexity

I very much want to simply how Sailwave deals with App LE Add C. I
originally added options so that it could all be done in one series because
of Add C 20.4 (below) which seems to imply that there is not a fixed
qualfying score that is carried forward to finals, but rather than a
selection of qualifying and finals races is chosen depending on how many
qual/finals races have been sailed (but maybe and hopefully I have
misinterpreted that).

From experience and looking at event SIs it is by far more common to

deliniate the quals and the finals and it also makes things easier for the
competitor - they know exactly what's happening and can follow where their
score is coming from. i.e. run quals, carry forward points to finals, run
finals. This is how Huw and I set up the 29er Worlds and 49er Europeans.
It's much easier to manage because as soon as the quals are over you can
forget about those races and concentrate on the finals. Also when
publishing the qual results are largely irrelevant so you have to supress
them anyway, so two separate series seemed a common sense approach - it
worked well - and was far easier to understand/manage...

http://www.9erchamps2006.com/results/overall29er.htm
http://www.9erchamps2006.com/results/overall49er.htm

It would also greatly simplify Sailwave and event SIs because essentially
it's just two series flowing into one another each with their individual
scoring system. At present, because it's all in one file, I need all the
extra 'finals' bits in the scoring system that would in fact become
redundant (like the extra discard profile).

Because it seems to be how people are interpreting Add C 20.4, I propose to
make this simplification and add facilities to flow one series into another;
which as it happens also helps in other contexts...

In summary: score quals and get a *fixed* easy to understannd qual score
that is carried forward into a new CFWD column in another series
automatically. i.e. the other series would be setup to suck in a CFWD score
as approripate (NB: Huw - with options to use places or points!). The
sucking in would be done each time you score the finals series, so you could
go and rescore quals if needed.

20.4 (below) does not seem to deliniate the two series because it's
referring to a total number of races sailed, even though further up the text
it refers to a qualifying series and a finals series as two separate
entities... 20.4 (c) is the problem: both scores may come from the quals
*or* one may come from the quals and one from the finals - that is also a
problem because fleet sizes are different and comparing scores across
quals/finals in terms of discards and absolute points is serioously flawed
(surely?).

What do you think...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

20.4

(a) When fewer than 5 races have been completed, a boat�s regatta score will
be
the total of her race scores.

(b) When from 5 to 11 races have been completed, a boat�s regatta score will
be
the total of her race scores excluding her worst score.

(c) When 12 or more races have been completed, a boat�s regatta score will
be the
total of her race scores excluding her two worst scores. [However, no more
than one score may be excluded from the final series and only when two or
more final-series races have been completed.]

(d) For boats with scores from final-series races, ties in the regatta score
are
broken by final-series scores with no race score excluded. This changes rule
A8.

--
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--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/447 - Release Date: 13/09/2006

However, it does mean that we've not ...<<<

now, not not.

CJ

G&T doing damage.

···

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See attached .doc file.

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Martin Bølgen
Sent: 14 September 2006 20:19
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] App LE Add C quals+finals

Hi, Colin!

I think you’re into something here!

It really sounds good to me.

regards, Martin

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Cc: Jerome Pels

Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 10:41 AM

Subject: [sailwave] App LE Add C quals+finals

Hi All,

Quals and finals and Complexity

===============================

I very much want to simply how Sailwave deals with App LE Add C. I
originally added options so that it could all be done in one series because
of Add C 20.4 (below) which seems to imply that there is not a fixed
qualfying score that is carried forward to finals, but rather than a
selection of qualifying and finals races is chosen depending on how many
qual/finals races have been sailed (but maybe and hopefully I have
misinterpreted that).

>From experience and looking at event SIs it is by far more common to
deliniate the quals and the finals and it also makes things easier for the
competitor - they know exactly what's happening and can follow where their
score is coming from. i.e. run quals, carry forward points to finals, run
finals. This is how Huw and I set up the 29er Worlds and 49er Europeans.
It's much easier to manage because as soon as the quals are over you can
forget about those races and concentrate on the finals. Also when
publishing the qual results are largely irrelevant so you have to supress
them anyway, so two separate series seemed a common sense approach - it
worked well - and was far easier to understand/manage...

http://www.9erchamps2006.com/results/overall29er.htm
http://www.9erchamps2006.com/results/overall49er.htm

It would also greatly simplify Sailwave and event SIs because essentially
it's just two series flowing into one another each with their individual
scoring system. At present, because it's all in one file, I need all the
extra 'finals' bits in the scoring system that would in fact become

redundant (like the extra discard profile).

Because it seems to be how people are interpreting Add C 20.4, I propose to
make this simplification and add facilities to flow one series into another;

which as it happens also helps in other contexts…

In summary: score quals and get a *fixed* easy to understannd qual score
that is carried forward into a new CFWD column in another series
automatically. i.e. the other series would be setup to suck in a CFWD score
as approripate (NB: Huw - with options to use places or points!). The
sucking in would be done each time you score the finals series, so you could

go and rescore quals if needed.

20.4 (below) does not seem to deliniate the two series because it's
referring to a total number of races sailed, even though further up the text
it refers to a qualifying series and a finals series as two separate
entities... 20.4 (c) is the problem: both scores may come from the quals
*or* one may come from the quals and one from the finals - that is also a
problem because fleet sizes are different and comparing scores across
quals/finals in terms of discards and absolute points is serioously flawed

(surely?).

What do you think...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

20.4

(a) When fewer than 5 races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will

be
the total of her race scores.

(b) When from 5 to 11 races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will

be
the total of her race scores excluding her worst score.

(c) When 12 or more races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will

be the
total of her race scores excluding her two worst scores. [However, no more
than one score may be excluded from the final series and only when two or
more final-series races have been completed.]

(d) For boats with scores from final-series races, ties in the regatta score

are
broken by final-series scores with no race score excluded. This changes rule
A8.


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: 12/09/2006

Hi Colin

I think that there are two main issues:

  1. 9ers who do their own thing!

As an ex 29er Chairman & 9er PRO, I should not criticise but I believe that they are the only International classes who carry forward net Q points & also have different fleet sizes between Q & F

  1. Most other Olympic class International championships & hosts of Olympic Class regattas tend to follow AddC but sometimes take a different approach to when discards apply.

There is an argument that says Q & F software scoring systems should only cover the published AddC.

This is based upon Q & F generally being used at International level & so they should be following ISAF rules & guidelines anyway.

If Q & F are desirable for National Championships, then they would have to keep to AddC if they wanted to use FOC software .

This would result in everyone using the same system (rather than editing the software) & proposing changes through the proper channels, as Mike has suggested.

Having had brief experience of the French system this year (everyone sails to standard FFV SIs) it certainly makes life easier for race officials & competitors alike

Regards

Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 September 2006 21:07
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] App LE Add C quals+finals

Hi Martin et al,

Many thanks for your response.

Jerome from ISAF has let me know that Add C as it stands is required and
there are no plans (nor need) to change it; the emphasis on Q and F races
being equally liable to get into the regatta points (what he nicely calls a
“floating discard system”) is deliberate.

However, it does mean that we’ve not identified two distinct methodologies:
the std Add C whereby Q and F are needed in the same series because the
discards “float” across both. And a varient in which Q and F are separated
with net Q being carried forward into F.

I intend to use this realisation to simplify anyway; i.e. to support the
varient more formally. It also paves the way for hierarchical series…

In short, if Net() is a function that take N scores from a series in
conformance to a discard rule then std Add C is:-

Net(QF)

and the varient is:-

Net(Q) + Net(F)

The shorthand seems to explain far better than all these words are… :slight_smile:

NB: the reason I started thining about this all gooes back to simplifying
Sailwave in general. The (now revised plan) is to have a new
Setup+UserInterface window that essentially makes components of Sailwave
visible like “scoring as one fleet”, “scoring by fleet”, “handicaps”, “std
AddC support”, “qualification profile”, “high point series”…

That’s fine but users may now knw what biots they need, so (as suggested by
users) a NewSeries setup wizard will configure that window and all the
others and races etc for you.

So expert users can just fiddle at the lowest level and new users can use
the wizard. The New+PropForma menu will allow quick selection of common
wizard routes.

That gives an out of the box Sailwave that essentially can just score a
single fleet one design race, with a consistent way forward…

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf Of
Martin Bølgen
Sent: 14 September 2006 20:19
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] App LE Add C quals+finals

Hi, Colin!

I think you’re into something here!

It really sounds good to me.

regards, Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: Colin Jenkins
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Jerome Pels
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 10:41 AM
Subject: [sailwave] App LE Add C quals+finals

Hi All,

Quals and finals and Complexity

I very much want to simply how Sailwave deals with App LE Add C. I
originally added options so that it could all be done in one series because
of Add C 20.4 (below) which seems to imply that there is not a fixed
qualfying score that is carried forward to finals, but rather than a
selection of qualifying and finals races is chosen depending on how many
qual/finals races have been sailed (but maybe and hopefully I have
misinterpreted that).

From experience and looking at event SIs it is by far more common to
deliniate the quals and the finals and it also makes things easier for the
competitor - they know exactly what’s happening and can follow where their
score is coming from. i.e. run quals, carry forward points to finals, run
finals. This is how Huw and I set up the 29er Worlds and 49er Europeans.
It’s much easier to manage because as soon as the quals are over you can
forget about those races and concentrate on the finals. Also when
publishing the qual results are largely irrelevant so you have to supress
them anyway, so two separate series seemed a common sense approach - it
worked well - and was far easier to understand/manage…

http://www.9erchamps2006.com/results/overall29er.htm
http://www.9erchamps2006.com/results/overall49er.htm

It would also greatly simplify Sailwave and event SIs because essentially
it’s just two series flowing into one another each with their individual
scoring system. At present, because it’s all in one file, I need all the
extra ‘finals’ bits in the scoring system that would in fact become
redundant (like the extra discard profile).

Because it seems to be how people are interpreting Add C 20.4, I propose to
make this simplification and add facilities to flow one series into another;
which as it happens also helps in other contexts…

In summary: score quals and get a fixed easy to understannd qual score
that is carried forward into a new CFWD column in another series
automatically. i.e. the other series would be setup to suck in a CFWD score
as approripate (NB: Huw - with options to use places or points!). The
sucking in would be done each time you score the finals series, so you could
go and rescore quals if needed.

20.4 (below) does not seem to deliniate the two series because it’s
referring to a total number of races sailed, even though further up the text
it refers to a qualifying series and a finals series as two separate
entities… 20.4 © is the problem: both scores may come from the quals
or one may come from the quals and one from the finals - that is also a
problem because fleet sizes are different and comparing scores across
quals/finals in terms of discards and absolute points is serioously flawed
(surely?).

What do you think…?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

20.4

(a) When fewer than 5 races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will
be
the total of her race scores.

(b) When from 5 to 11 races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will
be
the total of her race scores excluding her worst score.

© When 12 or more races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will
be the
total of her race scores excluding her two worst scores. [However, no more
than one score may be excluded from the final series and only when two or
more final-series races have been completed.]

(d) For boats with scores from final-series races, ties in the regatta score
are
broken by final-series scores with no race score excluded. This changes rule
A8.


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: 12/09/2006


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/447 - Release Date: 13/09/2006

If the softwaes sticks to the standts appendix.

It is simple to use two files to do separate Q and then F

Mik e

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 4:10 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] App LE Add C quals+finals

Hi Colin

I think that there are two main issues:

  1. 9ers who do their own thing!

As an ex 29er Chairman & 9er PRO, I should not criticise but I believe that they are the only International classes who carry forward net Q points & also have different fleet sizes between Q & F

  1. Most other Olympic class International championships & hosts of Olympic Class regattas tend to follow AddC but sometimes take a different approach to when discards apply.

There is an argument that says Q & F software scoring systems should only cover the published AddC.

This is based upon Q & F generally being used at International level & so they should be following ISAF rules & guidelines anyway.

If Q & F are desirable for National Championships, then they would have to keep to AddC if they wanted to use FOC software .

This would result in everyone using the same system (rather than editing the software) & proposing changes through the proper channels, as Mike has suggested.

Having had brief experience of the French system this year (everyone sails to standard FFV SIs) it certainly makes life easier for race officials & competitors alike

Regards

Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 September 2006 21:07
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] App LE Add C quals+finals

Hi Martin et al,

Many thanks for your response.

Jerome from ISAF has let me know that Add C as it stands is required and
there are no plans (nor need) to change it; the emphasis on Q and F races
being equally liable to get into the regatta points (what he nicely calls a

“floating discard system”) is deliberate.

However, it does mean that we've not identified two distinct methodologies:
the std Add C whereby Q and F are needed in the same series because the
discards "float" across both. And a varient in which Q and F are separated
with net Q being carried forward into F.

I intend to use this realisation to simplify anyway; i.e. to support the
varient more formally. It also paves the way for hierarchical series...

In short, if Net() is a function that take N scores from a series in
conformance to a discard rule then std Add C is:-

Net(QF)

and the varient is:-

Net(Q) + Net(F)

The shorthand seems to explain far better than all these words are... :-)

NB: the reason I started thining about this all gooes back to simplifying
Sailwave in general. The (now revised plan) is to have a new
Setup+UserInterface window that essentially makes components of Sailwave
visible like "scoring as one fleet", "scoring by fleet", "handicaps", "std
AddC support", "qualification profile", "high point series"....

That's fine but users may now knw what biots they need, so (as suggested by
users) a NewSeries setup wizard will configure that window and all the
others and races etc for you.

So expert users can just fiddle at the lowest level and new users can use
the wizard. The New+PropForma menu will allow quick selection of common

wizard routes.

That gives an out of the box Sailwave that essentially can just score a
single fleet one design race, with a consistent way forward...

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf Of
Martin Bølgen
Sent: 14 September 2006 20:19
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] App LE Add C quals+finals

Hi, Colin!

I think you're into something here!

It really sounds good to me.

regards, Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: Colin Jenkins
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Jerome Pels
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 10:41 AM
Subject: [sailwave] App LE Add C quals+finals

Hi All,

Quals and finals and Complexity

===============================

I very much want to simply how Sailwave deals with App LE Add C. I
originally added options so that it could all be done in one series because
of Add C 20.4 (below) which seems to imply that there is not a fixed
qualfying score that is carried forward to finals, but rather than a
selection of qualifying and finals races is chosen depending on how many
qual/finals races have been sailed (but maybe and hopefully I have

misinterpreted that).

>From experience and looking at event SIs it is by far more common to
deliniate the quals and the finals and it also makes things easier for the
competitor - they know exactly what's happening and can follow where their
score is coming from. i.e. run quals, carry forward points to finals, run
finals. This is how Huw and I set up the 29er Worlds and 49er Europeans.
It's much easier to manage because as soon as the quals are over you can
forget about those races and concentrate on the finals. Also when
publishing the qual results are largely irrelevant so you have to supress
them anyway, so two separate series seemed a common sense approach - it
worked well - and was far easier to understand/manage...

http://www.9erchamps2006.com/results/overall29er.htm
http://www.9erchamps2006.com/results/overall49er.htm

It would also greatly simplify Sailwave and event SIs because essentially
it's just two series flowing into one another each with their individual
scoring system. At present, because it's all in one file, I need all the
extra 'finals' bits in the scoring system that would in fact become

redundant (like the extra discard profile).

Because it seems to be how people are interpreting Add C 20.4, I propose to
make this simplification and add facilities to flow one series into another;

which as it happens also helps in other contexts…

In summary: score quals and get a *fixed* easy to understannd qual score
that is carried forward into a new CFWD column in another series
automatically. i.e. the other series would be setup to suck in a CFWD score
as approripate (NB: Huw - with options to use places or points!). The
sucking in would be done each time you score the finals series, so you could

go and rescore quals if needed.

20.4 (below) does not seem to deliniate the two series because it's
referring to a total number of races sailed, even though further up the text
it refers to a qualifying series and a finals series as two separate
entities... 20.4 (c) is the problem: both scores may come from the quals
*or* one may come from the quals and one from the finals - that is also a
problem because fleet sizes are different and comparing scores across
quals/finals in terms of discards and absolute points is serioously flawed

(surely?).

What do you think...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

20.4

(a) When fewer than 5 races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will

be
the total of her race scores.

(b) When from 5 to 11 races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will

be
the total of her race scores excluding her worst score.

(c) When 12 or more races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will

be the
total of her race scores excluding her two worst scores. [However, no more
than one score may be excluded from the final series and only when two or
more final-series races have been completed.]

(d) For boats with scores from final-series races, ties in the regatta score

are
broken by final-series scores with no race score excluded. This changes rule
A8.


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: 12/09/2006


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/447 - Release Date: 13/09/2006