Hi Colin
your comment which seems eminently sensible to me and I’m amazed its not the App standard is very interesting.
Over the years SUG has clearly demonstrated that there is a big difference between ISAF level racing & club racing, especially when it comes to scoring.
Despite many complaints and lobbying of MNAs I don’t think that we will ever get world-wide rules which recognise the requirements of grass-roots racing.
The differences are particularly noticeable when running International regattas
If I were to run races at club level the way that I do for an international event, I am sure that keel-hauling under the committee boat would be brought in to replace rule 62.1.
Now if there was a rule book produced by the ICRF (International Club Racing Federation)… 
Regards
Ralph
···
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Colin Jenkins
Sent: 06 November 2008 14:23
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Tie Breaking
Philippe,
I have no problem extending tie break (especially because of your contrubution to the SUG) - its easy to add more rules and now that I have the UI window to hide non-standard stuff I can do it without overwhelming everybody…
The effort will not be adding a rule like this (which has been asked for before) it’s specifying the order they are applied. Another common request is instead of 8.1 and 8.2 go to the discards, which seems eminently sensible to me and I’m amazed its not the App standard.
Colin
Philippe DE TROY wrote:
For the World Championship 2008, the Class Regulation was not applied as they didn’t find a method to apply it with Sailwave. The dISAF default was used instead of CRegs. A happy Frenchman won the Bronze…
I cannot accept the solution of moving the LD to last position in the results, and apply A8.2 first, as this works not only on this race, but if both receive a code for LD (it happened that two leading boats were DSQ for the LD), the tie break wil be made on the preceeding race instead of number of 1st places and so on…
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From:
Mark Townsend
Sent:
Thursday, November 06, 2008 1:50 PM
Subject:
RE: [sailwave] Tie Breaking
The results on the web are wrong, there are ties between 3rd and 4th, 13th and 14th, 16th and 17th, 22nd and 23rd, and they are all broken incorrectly.
Not sure I can see how to use SailWave to accurately score the series in all circumstances, given the current class tie break rule... But as a quick fix for the current results, move the Long Distance Race so it appears as the last race in the series. Disable A8.1 tie breaks and rescore, your results will be correct. In future the following SI would solve your problem, provide you with near identical results, and allow you to use most scoring programs, including SailWave.
Races shall be scored in the order sailed, except that the long distace race will be scored to be the last race, and the medium distance shall be the next to last race.If there is a series score tie between two or more boats, the tie shall be broken using **A8.2** . This changes RRS A8.The only time this might differ from the current tie break rule is if the tied boats finished neither the long distance race nor the medium distance race.
The curent class has a four part tie break if I read it correctly:
** SERIES TIES**
Micro Class Tie Break
If there is a series score tie between two or more boats, they shall be ranked
in order of their scores in the ** long distance race**. These scores
shall be used even if some of them are excluded scores.
If a tie remains between two or more boats, they shall be ranked
in order of their scores in the ** medium distance race**. These scores
shall be used even if some of them are excluded scores.
A8.1
If a tie remains between two or more boats, each boat’s
race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first
point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour of
the boat(s) with the best score(s). No excluded scores shall be used.
A8.2
If a tie remains between two or more boats, they shall be ranked
in order of their scores in the last race. Any remaining ties shall be
broken by using the tied boats’ scores in the next-to-last race and so
on until all ties are broken. These scores shall be used even if some of
them are excluded scores.
Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: philippe@detroy.org
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 09:30:07 +0100
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Tie BreakingColin,
Not so simple.
The LD is no longer sailed on the last day, but ususally mid-week as race 7.
So the rule is clearly on race 7, further A8.1 then A8.2
In the schedule of the last world championships, 11 races including 1 LD, no problem.
Should one organising nation opt for 10 races including LD and MD, MD as last race, then the rule could be tie breaking on LD (R7), further on MD (R10) further according to A8.1 then A8.2.
As here are two discards from 9 races, and some top competitors don't like LD and MD, then we could have a tie for podium place with boats DNF on LD and MD, there must be a further rule...
Selection in SW could be a first line "Apply these rules first" and then a field to enter the rule (R7, or a competitor field), further the present options
There are definitely problems with the weighting as a solution
Sailwave does not alow more than 2 decimals in weightings. So unless I multiply all weightings by 10, I cannot give a bonus 1/1000 for the LDUsually, just one decimal displayed in the scores should give only scores of nn.0 or nn.1, a race tie with an odd number of boat (3 3rds) is scored the average of the places (3-4-5, average 4.0). Here, the weighting induces .1, .2, and so onIf calculation is made to two decimals, the effect of the weighting in scores is displayedIf calculation is made to one decimal, the LD score is truncated and the tie is not broken unless there is a large difference of ranks in LD
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From:
Colin Jenkins
Sent:
Tuesday, November 04, 2008 11:32 AM
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Tie Breaking
it's almost like a generalised A8.2 - breaks ties on races in 'this' order (instead of the default backwards and in Sailwave, the optional forwards). Presumably you include discards - i.e. whether or not the LD race is discarded it's will used for your pre App A tie break rule..? IN whicj case its exactly like a generalised 8.2 with 8.1 and 8.2 swapped round.CJ
Philippe DE TROY wrote:Mark,
This is sometimes a matter of "Class culture"
Example: Micro Class, and larges event, the Micro Cup, now World Championship of the Class
The Micro Cup had a tradition, inherited from the Ton cups, a Championship format was 4 Olympic, 1 long distance (weigh 2.0), 1 medium distance race (weigh 1.5), one discard.
Some long distance races were son hard that many boats (up to 1/3 of the fleet) didn't finish.
Present trends are to increase the total number of races, now officialy 10, but organising nations are asking for 12, including the long distance.
But using race weight for the long distance means the race is non-discardable, otherwise 1/3 of the boats could go back home after the long distance race. And if the race is made discardable with weight 2.0, it means half of the fleet discards this race, as points are higher than a DNF in another race, so better retire (or even don't start) if you are in the second half, not good for the image we are giving to the public. Even in the first half, some competitors could consider to retire (if they are 7, but their usual place is less than 10, 14 points to discard).
To save the long distance race, there was only one solution : no weights, all races discardable, but to give very litle more importance to the race, tye on this race bodore aplying ISAF A.8
Works perfectly with the French software FReg, but just impossible with Sailwave. So when the organiser uses Sailwave or another software with similar properties, it is impossible to aply the Clas regulations. See the last World Championship [http://www.microclass.org/results/MC08.html](http://www.microclass.org/results/MC08.html) , the tye for the 3rd place could not be broken acording to Clas regulations, and it afects the final results.
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From:
Mark Townsend
Sent:
Tuesday, November 04, 2008 1:58 AM
Subject:
RE: [sailwave] Tie Breaking
Why do you want to have a specific race break a tie? It seems an usual requirement You can make a race so that it is not discardable. You can weight a race so that it is given more importance than other races. You can have non standard discard options. Who beat who in the first race. Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: nusret@2000ler.com
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:42:24 +0200
Subject: [sailwave] Tie BreakingHi All,
I am new with Sailwave and examining the software. In scoring series, is there a way to check a specific race within the series to break a tie before applying the other options of ISAF Appendix A8.1 or A8.2 ?
Thanks,
Nusret
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