Best practice for determining Personal Handicaps

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1

Does anyone have a document providing ‘Best Practice’ for determining personal handicaps.

I have in the past used a simple manual Back Calculated Rating * 1.03 for the first race of the series for the rest of the series. Obviously this has problems if this race was a ‘bad’ race for the person or a ‘bad’ race for the winner.

Thanks in advance Mark.

2

Mark, the best way to calculate personal handicaps is DON'T!

There is no way to fairly do it without annoying someone (everyone)
else, especially if it is based on performance in a specific race or
races. As you pointed out, a bad race can really skew things. Or,
people may sandbag - also not good. The other issue with "personal
handicaps" is that you are assigning a skill level to the
competitors, which they may not always like (bruising ego's).

For what it's worth, that is what I've seen.

Have fun!

Bill

Does anyone have a document providing 'Best Practice' for

determining personal handicaps.

I have in the past used a simple manual Back Calculated Rating *

1.03 for the first race of the series for the rest of the series.
Obviously this has problems if this race was a 'bad' race for the
person or a 'bad' race for the winner.

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, MARK WARREN <mswarren@...> wrote:

Thanks in advance Mark.

3

Yet the ECHO system in Ireland works well - it is essentially an individual handicap system, with handicaps being readjusted regularly in light of performances. In fact, at major events the handicap is adjusted after each race.

Gordon

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Bill Visser

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 6:45 PM

Subject: [sailwave] Re: Best practice for determining Personal Handicaps

Mark, the best way to calculate personal handicaps is DON’T!

There is no way to fairly do it without annoying someone (everyone)
else, especially if it is based on performance in a specific race or
races. As you pointed out, a bad race can really skew things. Or,
people may sandbag - also not good. The other issue with “personal
handicaps” is that you are assigning a skill level to the
competitors, which they may not always like (bruising ego’s).

For what it’s worth, that is what I’ve seen.

Have fun!

Bill

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com , MARK WARREN <mswarren@…> wrote:

Does anyone have a document providing ‘Best Practice’ for
determining personal handicaps.

I have in the past used a simple manual Back Calculated Rating *
1.03 for the first race of the series for the rest of the series.
Obviously this has problems if this race was a ‘bad’ race for the
person or a ‘bad’ race for the winner.

Thanks in advance Mark.

4

Thanks for the feed-back. What we are trying to do is to run just one
of our 4 Sunday club races as a Personal H/C race - the first in the
day to encourage new members into club racing. This would be one race
that they stand a chance of beating the 'Big Guns'.

Gordon,

Do you know of a link or document that defines the mathematical
mechanism behind the ECHO system?

Mark Warren, MKSC.

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Gordon Davies" <gordondavies@...>
wrote:

Yet the ECHO system in Ireland works well - it is essentially an

individual handicap system, with handicaps being readjusted regularly
in light of performances. In fact, at major events the handicap is
adjusted after each race.

Gordon
  From: Bill Visser
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 6:45 PM
  Subject: [sailwave] Re: Best practice for determining Personal

Handicaps

  Mark, the best way to calculate personal handicaps is DON'T!

  There is no way to fairly do it without annoying someone

(everyone)

  else, especially if it is based on performance in a specific race

or

  races. As you pointed out, a bad race can really skew things. Or,
  people may sandbag - also not good. The other issue

with "personal

···

  ----- Original Message -----
  handicaps" is that you are assigning a skill level to the
  competitors, which they may not always like (bruising ego's).

  For what it's worth, that is what I've seen.

  Have fun!

  Bill

  --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, MARK WARREN <mswarren@> wrote:
  >
  > Does anyone have a document providing 'Best Practice' for
  determining personal handicaps.
  >
  > I have in the past used a simple manual Back Calculated Rating

*

  1.03 for the first race of the series for the rest of the series.
  Obviously this has problems if this race was a 'bad' race for the
  person or a 'bad' race for the winner.
  >
  > Thanks in advance Mark.
  >

5

Hi Mark

I introduced personal handicaps at the club & despite the initial scepticism, it went down really well.

Like boat handicaps, it can never be accurate but it can stimulate interest in a long series when the same group of sailors always finish at the top

We used to declare two sets of results (similar to golf). The ‘gross’ winner always took the trophies but there was something for the less able sailors to aim for

The key is to introduce a simple system

The system I used was to take all results from a race, eliminate the top & bottom n% and back calculate a ‘standard’ time for the race

The actual time for every competitor was then assessed against the standard time to produce the boat handicap that they actually sailed to.

The difference between the standard boat handicap & the recalculated one was a race Performance Index (PI)

As the number of races increased, I calculated a simple average of total PIs divided by the number of races sailed by that competitor

Everyone started from zero & it did not take long for competitors to reach their expected performance

The range of Personal Handicaps (PH) was -120 (the best sailors) to +300 (beginners)

New sailors moved up quickly whereas the top sailors remained fairly static

You mention Mark about the problems of a ‘bad race’ This tended to be eliminated the more races that were used in the average PI

There were times when I ignored certain races for extreme weather conditions & in the early days, I ignored a competitor’s race result if it looked ‘strange’

If there are any statisticians out there cringing at my methods, I apologise but it worked!

Best of luck with your system & the bar room ‘experts’ don’t persuade the sailing committee to throw it out

Regards

Ralph

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of MARK WARREN
Sent: 01 November 2008 16:13
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Best practice for determining Personal Handicaps

Does anyone have a document providing ‘Best Practice’ for determining personal handicaps.

I have in the past used a simple manual Back Calculated Rating * 1.03 for the first race of the series for the rest of the series. Obviously this has problems if this race was a ‘bad’ race for the person or a ‘bad’ race for the winner.

Thanks in advance Mark.

6

This may help

http://www.sailing.ie/inside/default.asp?pageId=295

Gordon

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
mark936545

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 7:23 PM

Subject: [sailwave] Re: Best practice for determining Personal Handicaps

Thanks for the feed-back. What we are trying to do is to run just one
of our 4 Sunday club races as a Personal H/C race - the first in the
day to encourage new members into club racing. This would be one race
that they stand a chance of beating the ‘Big Guns’.

Gordon,

Do you know of a link or document that defines the mathematical
mechanism behind the ECHO system?

Mark Warren, MKSC.

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com , “Gordon Davies” <gordondavies@…>
wrote:

Yet the ECHO system in Ireland works well - it is essentially an
individual handicap system, with handicaps being readjusted regularly
in light of performances. In fact, at major events the handicap is
adjusted after each race.

Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Visser
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 6:45 PM
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Best practice for determining Personal
Handicaps

Mark, the best way to calculate personal handicaps is DON’T!

There is no way to fairly do it without annoying someone
(everyone)
else, especially if it is based on performance in a specific race
or
races. As you pointed out, a bad race can really skew things. Or,
people may sandbag - also not good. The other issue
with “personal
handicaps” is that you are assigning a skill level to the
competitors, which they may not always like (bruising ego’s).

For what it’s worth, that is what I’ve seen.

Have fun!

Bill

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com , MARK WARREN <mswarren@> wrote:

Does anyone have a document providing ‘Best Practice’ for
determining personal handicaps.

I have in the past used a simple manual Back Calculated Rating

  • 1.03 for the first race of the series for the rest of the series.
    Obviously this has problems if this race was a ‘bad’ race for the
    person or a ‘bad’ race for the winner.

Thanks in advance Mark.

7

Gordon,

Thanks for the link.

Mark.

Ralph,

Thanks for the ideas. I think what the replies have told me is that
this may or may not be a good idea and everyone does their Personal
H/Cs in their own way (or not at all) but are basically based on some
form of back calculated rating - as I had done. I think what I still
need to do is to introduce some averaging over a number of races to
get an average Personal H/C.

Thanks.

Mark.

Hi Mark
I introduced personal handicaps at the club & despite the initial
scepticism, it went down really well.
Like boat handicaps, it can never be accurate but it can stimulate

interest

in a long series when the same group of sailors always finish at

the top

We used to declare two sets of results (similar to golf).

The 'gross' winner

always took the trophies but there was something for the less able

sailors

to aim for

The key is to introduce a simple system
The system I used was to take all results from a race, eliminate

the top &

bottom n% and back calculate a 'standard' time for the race
The actual time for every competitor was then assessed against the

standard

time to produce the boat handicap that they actually sailed to.
The difference between the standard boat handicap & the

recalculated one was

a race Performance Index (PI)

As the number of races increased, I calculated a simple average of

total PIs

divided by the number of races sailed by that competitor
Everyone started from zero & it did not take long for competitors

to reach

their expected performance
The range of Personal Handicaps (PH) was -120 (the best sailors)

to +300

(beginners)
New sailors moved up quickly whereas the top sailors remained

fairly static

You mention Mark about the problems of a 'bad race' This tended to

be

eliminated the more races that were used in the average PI
There were times when I ignored certain races for extreme weather

conditions

& in the early days, I ignored a competitor's race result if it

looked

'strange'

If there are any statisticians out there cringing at my methods, I

apologise

but it worked!

Best of luck with your system & the bar room 'experts' don't

persuade the

sailing committee to throw it out

Regards
Ralph

  _____

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On

Behalf

Of MARK WARREN
Sent: 01 November 2008 16:13
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Best practice for determining Personal Handicaps

Does anyone have a document providing 'Best Practice' for

determining

personal handicaps.

I have in the past used a simple manual Back Calculated Rating *

1.03 for

the first race of the series for the rest of the series. Obviously

this has

problems if this race was a 'bad' race for the person or a 'bad'

race for

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@...> wrote:

the winner.

Thanks in advance Mark.

8

Hi All,

I am new with Sailwave and examining the software. In scoring
series, is there a way to check a specific race within the series to break a
tie before applying the other options of ISAF Appendix A8.1 or A8.2 ?

Thanks,

Nusret

9

Why do you want to have a specific race break a tie? It seems an usual requirement

You can make a race so that it is not discardable.

You can weight a race so that it is given more importance than other races.

You can have non standard discard options. Who beat who in the first race.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

···

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: nusret@2000ler.com
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:42:24 +0200
Subject: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Hi All,

I am new with Sailwave and examining the software. In scoring series, is there a way to check a specific race within the series to break a tie before applying the other options of ISAF Appendix A8.1 or A8.2 ?

Thanks,

Nusret

You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. See how

10

Mark,

This is sometimes a matter of “Class culture”

Example: Micro Class, and larges event, the Micro Cup, now World Championship of the Class

The Micro Cup had a tradition, inherited from the Ton cups, a Championship format was 4 Olympic, 1 long distance (weigh 2.0), 1 medium distance race (weigh 1.5), one discard.

Some long distance races were son hard that many boats (up to 1/3 of the fleet) didn’t finish.

Present trends are to increase the total number of races, now officialy 10, but organising nations are asking for 12, including the long distance.

But using race weight for the long distance means the race is non-discardable, otherwise 1/3 of the boats could go back home after the long distance race. And if the race is made discardable with weight 2.0, it means half of the fleet discards this race, as points are higher than a DNF in another race, so better retire (or even don’t start) if you are in the second half, not good for the image we are giving to the public. Even in the first half, some competitors could consider to retire (if they are 7, but their usual place is less than 10, 14 points to discard).

To save the long distance race, there was only one solution : no weights, all races discardable, but to give very litle more importance to the race, tye on this race bodore aplying ISAF A.8

Works perfectly with the French software FReg, but just impossible with Sailwave. So when the organiser uses Sailwave or another software with similar properties, it is impossible to aply the Clas regulations. See the last World Championship http://www.microclass.org/results/MC08.html, the tye for the 3rd place could not be broken acording to Clas regulations, and it afects the final results.

Phil

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Mark Townsend

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 1:58 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Why do you want to have a specific race break a tie? It seems an usual requirement

You can make a race so that it is not discardable.

You can weight a race so that it is given more importance than other races.

You can have non standard discard options. Who beat who in the first race.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: nusret@2000ler.com
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:42:24 +0200
Subject: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Hi All,

I am new with Sailwave and examining the software. In scoring series, is there a way to check a specific race within the series to break a tie before applying the other options of ISAF Appendix A8.1 or A8.2 ?

Thanks,

Nusret

You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. See how

11

it’s almost like a generalised A8.2 - breaks ties
on races in ‘this’ order (instead of the default backwards and in
Sailwave, the optional forwards). Presumably you include discards -
i.e. whether or not the LD race is discarded it’s will used for your
pre App A tie break rule…? IN whicj case its exactly like a
generalised 8.2 with 8.1 and 8.2 swapped round.

CJ

Philippe DE TROY wrote:

···

sailwave@yahoogroups.com
nusret@2000ler.com

Hi All,

I am new with
Sailwave and examining the software. In scoring series, is there a way
to check a specific race within the series to break a tie before
applying the other options of ISAF Appendix A8.1 or A8.2 ?

Thanks,

Nusret

You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your
PC. See
how

http://www.avg.com

12

Hi Nusret

There is also B8.8 for windsurfing (enable extended tie break opions in
the UI window).

You can always force people to beat other people by hand by using the
‘penalty’ field in a competitor (and renaming it to ‘tie break fix’ or
something and adding 0.0001 points say to a score, but there is nothing
auto to fit your requirement as it stands. Can you let us know more
about the context…?

Colin J

Sailwave

Nusret Dönmez wrote:

···

http://www.avg.com

13

Does the class rule allow the Long Distance race to be used even if it is excluded from the boats final score?

Micro Class Rule??? If there is a series score tie between two or more boats, they shall be ranked

in order of their scores in the long distance race. These scores shall be used even if some of

them are excluded scores.

If it is as above, I can not think of a way of scoringing it accurately in sailwave.

You could make it so the long distance race will be the last race for purposes of scoring, but this will not work in all cases. Giving it a weight of 1.01 will also some problems but create others.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

···

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: philippe@detroy.org
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 08:07:31 +0100
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Mark,

This is sometimes a matter of “Class culture”

Example: Micro Class, and larges event, the Micro Cup, now World Championship of the Class

The Micro Cup had a tradition, inherited from the Ton cups, a Championship format was 4 Olympic, 1 long distance (weigh 2.0), 1 medium distance race (weigh 1.5), one discard.

Some long distance races were son hard that many boats (up to 1/3 of the fleet) didn’t finish.

Present trends are to increase the total number of races, now officialy 10, but organising nations are asking for 12, including the long distance.

But using race weight for the long distance means the race is non-discardable, otherwise 1/3 of the boats could go back home after the long distance race. And if the race is made discardable with weight 2.0, it means half of the fleet discards this race, as points are higher than a DNF in another race, so better retire (or even don’t start) if you are in the second half, not good for the image we are giving to the public. Even in the first half, some competitors could consider to retire (if they are 7, but their usual place is less than 10, 14 points to discard).

To save the long distance race, there was only one solution : no weights, all races discardable, but to give very litle more importance to the race, tye on this race bodore aplying ISAF A.8

Works perfectly with the French software FReg, but just impossible with Sailwave. So when the organiser uses Sailwave or another software with similar properties, it is impossible to aply the Clas regulations. See the last World Championship http://www.microclass.org/results/MC08.html, the tye for the 3rd place could not be broken acording to Clas regulations, and it afects the final results.

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Townsend

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 1:58 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Why do you want to have a specific race break a tie? It seems an usual requirement

You can make a race so that it is not discardable.

You can weight a race so that it is given more importance than other races.

You can have non standard discard options. Who beat who in the first race.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

Hi All,

I am new with Sailwave and examining the software. In scoring series, is there a way to check a specific race within the series to break a tie before applying the other options of ISAF Appendix A8.1 or A8.2 ?

Thanks,

Nusret

You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. See how

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: nusret@2000ler.com
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:42:24 +0200
Subject: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. Learn Now

14

I was playing around with your problem some more…

If you make the Long Distance Race the last race and give the long distance race a weight of 1.01 I think it will give you the correct result.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

···

From: s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Tie Breaking
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 06:13:58 -0800

Does the class rule allow the Long Distance race to be used even if it is excluded from the boats final score?

Micro Class Rule??? If there is a series score tie between two or more boats, they shall be ranked

in order of their scores in the long distance race. These scores shall be used even if some of

them are excluded scores.

If it is as above, I can not think of a way of scoringing it accurately in sailwave.

You could make it so the long distance race will be the last race for purposes of scoring, but this will not work in all cases. Giving it a weight of 1.01 will also some problems but create others.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: philippe@detroy.org
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 08:07:31 +0100
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Mark,

This is sometimes a matter of “Class culture”

Example: Micro Class, and larges event, the Micro Cup, now World Championship of the Class

The Micro Cup had a tradition, inherited from the Ton cups, a Championship format was 4 Olympic, 1 long distance (weigh 2.0), 1 medium distance race (weigh 1.5), one discard.

Some long distance races were son hard that many boats (up to 1/3 of the fleet) didn’t finish.

Present trends are to increase the total number of races, now officialy 10, but organising nations are asking for 12, including the long distance.

But using race weight for the long distance means the race is non-discardable, otherwise 1/3 of the boats could go back home after the long distance race. And if the race is made discardable with weight 2.0, it means half of the fleet discards this race, as points are higher than a DNF in another race, so better retire (or even don’t start) if you are in the second half, not good for the image we are giving to the public. Even in the first half, some competitors could consider to retire (if they are 7, but their usual place is less than 10, 14 points to discard).

To save the long distance race, there was only one solution : no weights, all races discardable, but to give very litle more importance to the race, tye on this race bodore aplying ISAF A.8

Works perfectly with the French software FReg, but just impossible with Sailwave. So when the organiser uses Sailwave or another software with similar properties, it is impossible to aply the Clas regulations. See the last World Championship http://www.microclass.org/results/MC08.html, the tye for the 3rd place could not be broken acording to Clas regulations, and it afects the final results.

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Townsend

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 1:58 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Why do you want to have a specific race break a tie? It seems an usual requirement

You can make a race so that it is not discardable.

You can weight a race so that it is given more importance than other races.

You can have non standard discard options. Who beat who in the first race.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

Hi All,

I am new with Sailwave and examining the software. In scoring series, is there a way to check a specific race within the series to break a tie before applying the other options of ISAF Appendix A8.1 or A8.2 ?

Thanks,

Nusret

You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. See how

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: nusret@2000ler.com
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:42:24 +0200
Subject: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. Learn Now

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15

Best weight 0,998 for LD and 0,999 for MD, to be tested. As scoring is low point ties are aparent but not real if the scores are different

This is for me a provisional solution.

For the Class Regulation, see http://www.microclass.org/page.php?page=regulationA

Phil

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Mark Townsend

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 3:13 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Does the class rule allow the Long Distance race to be used even if it is excluded from the boats final score?

Micro Class Rule??? If there is a series score tie between two or more boats, they shall be ranked

in order of their scores in the long distance race. These scores shall be used even if some of

them are excluded scores.

If it is as above, I can not think of a way of scoringing it accurately in sailwave.

You could make it so the long distance race will be the last race for purposes of scoring, but this will not work in all cases. Giving it a weight of 1.01 will also some problems but create others.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: philippe@detroy.org
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 08:07:31 +0100
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Mark,

This is sometimes a matter of “Class culture”

Example: Micro Class, and larges event, the Micro Cup, now World Championship of the Class

The Micro Cup had a tradition, inherited from the Ton cups, a Championship format was 4 Olympic, 1 long distance (weigh 2.0), 1 medium distance race (weigh 1.5), one discard.

Some long distance races were son hard that many boats (up to 1/3 of the fleet) didn’t finish.

Present trends are to increase the total number of races, now officialy 10, but organising nations are asking for 12, including the long distance.

But using race weight for the long distance means the race is non-discardable, otherwise 1/3 of the boats could go back home after the long distance race. And if the race is made discardable with weight 2.0, it means half of the fleet discards this race, as points are higher than a DNF in another race, so better retire (or even don’t start) if you are in the second half, not good for the image we are giving to the public. Even in the first half, some competitors could consider to retire (if they are 7, but their usual place is less than 10, 14 points to discard).

To save the long distance race, there was only one solution : no weights, all races discardable, but to give very litle more importance to the race, tye on this race bodore aplying ISAF A.8

Works perfectly with the French software FReg, but just impossible with Sailwave. So when the organiser uses Sailwave or another software with similar properties, it is impossible to aply the Clas regulations. See the last World Championship http://www.microclass.org/results/MC08.html , the tye for the 3rd place could not be broken acording to Clas regulations, and it afects the final results.

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Townsend

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 1:58 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Why do you want to have a specific race break a tie? It seems an usual requirement

You can make a race so that it is not discardable.

You can weight a race so that it is given more importance than other races.

You can have non standard discard options. Who beat who in the first race.









Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com



Hi All,

I am new with Sailwave and examining the software. In scoring series, is there a way to check a specific race within the series to break a tie before applying the other options of ISAF Appendix A8.1 or A8.2 ?

Thanks,

Nusret

You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. See how

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: nusret@2000ler.com
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:42:24 +0200
Subject: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. Learn Now

16

Thanks to all for the prompt replies.

I am from Marmaris International Yacht Club in Turkey. We are
organizing Marmaris Race Week which is a fleet race for the yachts (IRC) every
November. We have done the 19th Regatta last week. Now, I am planning to use Sailwave
for the next years. There are 5 races during the regatta, four of them triangle
inshore races and one undiscardable long distance offshore race. The low point
system is used. When scoring the series we first check the offshore race (it is
not the last race) point to break the ties within the fleets, if the tie
remains then apply A8.2 –who had the best recent scores (including
discards).

So, is there anything auto to do this in sailwave. Can one of
your recommendations solve this? Weighing the race? Making it the last race for
scoring purposes? etc.

My second problem is with Turkish characters. They are OK in Series
Summary TAB but not in the main window and published results to Excel and Word.
I tried to do several recommendations previously given in this group but none
worked. I am using Windows Vista Home Premium, English version.

Regards,

Nusret

From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Colin
Jenkins

···

Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 12:36 PM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Hi
Nusret

There is also B8.8 for windsurfing (enable extended tie break opions in the UI
window).

You can always force people to beat other people by hand by using the ‘penalty’
field in a competitor (and renaming it to ‘tie break fix’ or something and
adding 0.0001 points say to a score, but there is nothing auto to fit your
requirement as it stands. Can you let us know more about the context…?

Colin J

Sailwave

Nusret Dönmez wrote:

Hi All,

I am new with
Sailwave and examining the software. In scoring series, is there a way to check
a specific race within the series to break a tie before applying the other
options of ISAF Appendix A8.1 or A8.2 ?

Thanks,

Nusret



---


No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG - [http://www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com)

Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1765 - Release Date: 03/11/2008 16:59
17

Colin,

Not so simple.

The LD is no longer sailed on the last day, but ususally mid-week as race 7.

So the rule is clearly on race 7, further A8.1 then A8.2

In the schedule of the last world championships, 11 races including 1 LD, no problem.

Should one organising nation opt for 10 races including LD and MD, MD as last race, then the rule could be tie breaking on LD (R7), further on MD (R10) further according to A8.1 then A8.2.

As here are two discards from 9 races, and some top competitors don’t like LD and MD, then we could have a tie for podium place with boats DNF on LD and MD, there must be a further rule…

Selection in SW could be a first line “Apply these rules first” and then a field to enter the rule (R7, or a competitor field), further the present options

There are definitely problems with the weighting as a solution

  • Sailwave does not alow more than 2 decimals in weightings. So unless I multiply all weightings by 10, I cannot give a bonus 1/1000 for the LD
  • Usually, just one decimal displayed in the scores should give only scores of nn.0 or nn.1, a race tie with an odd number of boat (3 3rds) is scored the average of the places (3-4-5, average 4.0). Here, the weighting induces .1, .2, and so on
  • If calculation is made to two decimals, the effect of the weighting in scores is displayed
  • If calculation is made to one decimal, the LD score is truncated and the tie is not broken unless there is a large difference of ranks in LD

Phil

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 11:32 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

it’s almost like a generalised A8.2 - breaks ties on races in ‘this’ order (instead of the default backwards and in Sailwave, the optional forwards). Presumably you include discards - i.e. whether or not the LD race is discarded it’s will used for your pre App A tie break rule…? IN whicj case its exactly like a generalised 8.2 with 8.1 and 8.2 swapped round.

CJ

Philippe DE TROY wrote:

Mark,

This is sometimes a matter of "Class culture"

Example: Micro Class, and larges event, the Micro Cup, now World Championship of the Class

The Micro Cup had a tradition, inherited from the Ton cups, a Championship format was 4 Olympic, 1 long distance (weigh 2.0), 1 medium distance race (weigh 1.5), one discard.

Some long distance races were son hard that many boats (up to 1/3 of the fleet) didn't finish.

Present trends are to increase the total number of races, now officialy 10, but organising nations are asking for 12, including the long distance. 

But using race weight for the long distance means the race is non-discardable, otherwise 1/3 of the boats could go back home after the long distance race.  And if the race is made discardable with weight 2.0, it means half of the fleet discards this race, as points are higher than a DNF in another race, so better retire (or even don't start) if you are in the second half, not good for the image we are giving to the public.  Even in the first half, some competitors could consider to retire (if they are 7, but their usual place is less than 10, 14 points to discard). 

To save the long distance race, there was only one solution : no weights, all races discardable, but to give very litle more importance to the race, tye on this race bodore aplying ISAF A.8

Works perfectly with the French software FReg, but just impossible with Sailwave.  So when the organiser uses Sailwave or another software with similar properties, it is impossible to aply the Clas regulations.  See the last World Championship [http://www.microclass.org/results/MC08.html](http://www.microclass.org/results/MC08.html)    , the tye for the 3rd place could not be broken acording to Clas regulations, and it afects the final results.

Phil

  ----- Original Message -----

From:
Mark Townsend

To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent:
Tuesday, November 04, 2008 1:58 AM

Subject:
RE: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

  Why do you want to have a specific race break a tie? It seems an usual requirement

  You can make a race so that it is not discardable.

  You can weight a race so that it is given more importance than other races.

  You can have non standard discard options. Who beat who in the first race.









  Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: nusret@2000ler.com
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:42:24 +0200
Subject: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Hi All,

  I am new with Sailwave and examining the software. In scoring series, is there a way to check a specific race within the series to break a tie before applying the other options of ISAF Appendix A8.1 or A8.2 ?

Thanks,

Nusret

You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. See how



---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - [http://www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com)
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1765 - Release Date: 03/11/2008 16:59
18

The results on the web are wrong, there are ties between 3rd and 4th, 13th and 14th, 16th and 17th, 22nd and 23rd, and they are all broken incorrectly.

Not sure I can see how to use SailWave to accurately score the series in all circumstances, given the current class tie break rule… But as a quick fix for the current results, move the Long Distance Race so it appears as the last race in the series. Disable A8.1 tie breaks and rescore, your results will be correct.

In future the following SI would solve your problem, provide you with near identical results, and allow you to use most scoring programs, including SailWave.

  1. Races shall be scored in the order sailed, except that the long distace race will be scored to be the last race, and the medium distance shall be the next to last race.
  2. If there is a series score tie between two or more boats, the tie shall be broken using A8.2. This changes RRS A8.

The only time this might differ from the current tie break rule is if the tied boats finished neither the long distance race nor the medium distance race.

The curent class has a four part tie break if I read it correctly:

SERIES TIES

Micro Class Tie Break

If there is a series score tie between two or more boats, they shall be ranked

in order of their scores in the long distance race. These scores

shall be used even if some of them are excluded scores.

If a tie remains between two or more boats, they shall be ranked

in order of their scores in the medium distance race. These scores

shall be used even if some of them are excluded scores.

A8.1

If a tie remains between two or more boats, each boat’s

race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first

point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour of

the boat(s) with the best score(s). No excluded scores shall be used.

A8.2

If a tie remains between two or more boats, they shall be ranked

in order of their scores in the last race. Any remaining ties shall be

broken by using the tied boats’ scores in the next-to-last race and so

on until all ties are broken. These scores shall be used even if some of

them are excluded scores.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

···

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: philippe@detroy.org
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 09:30:07 +0100
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Colin,

Not so simple.

The LD is no longer sailed on the last day, but ususally mid-week as race 7.

So the rule is clearly on race 7, further A8.1 then A8.2

In the schedule of the last world championships, 11 races including 1 LD, no problem.

Should one organising nation opt for 10 races including LD and MD, MD as last race, then the rule could be tie breaking on LD (R7), further on MD (R10) further according to A8.1 then A8.2.

As here are two discards from 9 races, and some top competitors don’t like LD and MD, then we could have a tie for podium place with boats DNF on LD and MD, there must be a further rule…

Selection in SW could be a first line “Apply these rules first” and then a field to enter the rule (R7, or a competitor field), further the present options

There are definitely problems with the weighting as a solution

  • Sailwave does not alow more than 2 decimals in weightings. So unless I multiply all weightings by 10, I cannot give a bonus 1/1000 for the LD
  • Usually, just one decimal displayed in the scores should give only scores of nn.0 or nn.1, a race tie with an odd number of boat (3 3rds) is scored the average of the places (3-4-5, average 4.0). Here, the weighting induces .1, .2, and so on
  • If calculation is made to two decimals, the effect of the weighting in scores is displayed
  • If calculation is made to one decimal, the LD score is truncated and the tie is not broken unless there is a large difference of ranks in LD

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 11:32 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

it’s almost like a generalised A8.2 - breaks ties on races in ‘this’ order (instead of the default backwards and in Sailwave, the optional forwards). Presumably you include discards - i.e. whether or not the LD race is discarded it’s will used for your pre App A tie break rule…? IN whicj case its exactly like a generalised 8.2 with 8.1 and 8.2 swapped round.

CJ

Philippe DE TROY wrote:

Mark,

This is sometimes a matter of “Class culture”

Example: Micro Class, and larges event, the Micro Cup, now World Championship of the Class

The Micro Cup had a tradition, inherited from the Ton cups, a Championship format was 4 Olympic, 1 long distance (weigh 2.0), 1 medium distance race (weigh 1.5), one discard.

Some long distance races were son hard that many boats (up to 1/3 of the fleet) didn’t finish.

Present trends are to increase the total number of races, now officialy 10, but organising nations are asking for 12, including the long distance.

But using race weight for the long distance means the race is non-discardable, otherwise 1/3 of the boats could go back home after the long distance race. And if the race is made discardable with weight 2.0, it means half of the fleet discards this race, as points are higher than a DNF in another race, so better retire (or even don’t start) if you are in the second half, not good for the image we are giving to the public. Even in the first half, some competitors could consider to retire (if they are 7, but their usual place is less than 10, 14 points to discard).

To save the long distance race, there was only one solution : no weights, all races discardable, but to give very litle more importance to the race, tye on this race bodore aplying ISAF A.8

Works perfectly with the French software FReg, but just impossible with Sailwave. So when the organiser uses Sailwave or another software with similar properties, it is impossible to aply the Clas regulations. See the last World Championship http://www.microclass.org/results/MC08.html, the tye for the 3rd place could not be broken acording to Clas regulations, and it afects the final results.

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Townsend

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 1:58 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Why do you want to have a specific race break a tie? It seems an usual requirement

You can make a race so that it is not discardable.

You can weight a race so that it is given more importance than other races.

You can have non standard discard options. Who beat who in the first race.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: nusret@2000ler.com
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:42:24 +0200
Subject: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Hi All,

I am new with Sailwave and examining the software. In scoring series, is there a way to check a specific race within the series to break a tie before applying the other options of ISAF Appendix A8.1 or A8.2 ?

Thanks,

Nusret

You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. See how



---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - [http://www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com/)
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1765 - Release Date: 03/11/2008 16:59

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19

For the World Championship 2008, the Class Regulation was not applied as they didn’t find a method to apply it with Sailwave. The dISAF default was used instead of CRegs. A happy Frenchman won the Bronze…

I cannot accept the solution of moving the LD to last position in the results, and apply A8.2 first, as this works not only on this race, but if both receive a code for LD (it happened that two leading boats were DSQ for the LD), the tie break wil be made on the preceeding race instead of number of 1st places and so on…

Phil

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Mark Townsend

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com ; colin@sailwave.org

Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 1:50 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

The results on the web are wrong, there are ties between 3rd and 4th, 13th and 14th, 16th and 17th, 22nd and 23rd, and they are all broken incorrectly.

Not sure I can see how to use SailWave to accurately score the series in all circumstances, given the current class tie break rule… But as a quick fix for the current results, move the Long Distance Race so it appears as the last race in the series. Disable A8.1 tie breaks and rescore, your results will be correct.

In future the following SI would solve your problem, provide you with near identical results, and allow you to use most scoring programs, including SailWave.

  1. Races shall be scored in the order sailed, except that the long distace race will be scored to be the last race, and the medium distance shall be the next to last race. 

  2. If there is a series score tie between two or more boats, the tie shall be broken using **A8.2**    . This changes RRS A8.

The only time this might differ from the current tie break rule is if the tied boats finished neither the long distance race nor the medium distance race.

The curent class has a four part tie break if I read it correctly:

SERIES TIES

Micro Class Tie Break

If there is a series score tie between two or more boats, they shall be ranked

in order of their scores in the ** long distance race**. These scores

shall be used even if some of them are excluded scores.

If a tie remains between two or more boats, they shall be ranked

in order of their scores in the ** medium distance race**. These scores

shall be used even if some of them are excluded scores.

A8.1

If a tie remains between two or more boats, each boat’s

race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first

point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour of

the boat(s) with the best score(s). No excluded scores shall be used.

A8.2

If a tie remains between two or more boats, they shall be ranked

in order of their scores in the last race. Any remaining ties shall be

broken by using the tied boats’ scores in the next-to-last race and so

on until all ties are broken. These scores shall be used even if some of

them are excluded scores.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: philippe@detroy.org
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 09:30:07 +0100
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Colin,

Not so simple.

The LD is no longer sailed on the last day, but ususally mid-week as race 7.

So the rule is clearly on race 7, further A8.1 then A8.2

In the schedule of the last world championships, 11 races including 1 LD, no problem.

Should one organising nation opt for 10 races including LD and MD, MD as last race, then the rule could be tie breaking on LD (R7), further on MD (R10) further according to A8.1 then A8.2.

As here are two discards from 9 races, and some top competitors don’t like LD and MD, then we could have a tie for podium place with boats DNF on LD and MD, there must be a further rule…

Selection in SW could be a first line “Apply these rules first” and then a field to enter the rule (R7, or a competitor field), further the present options

There are definitely problems with the weighting as a solution

  • Sailwave does not alow more than 2 decimals in weightings.  So unless I multiply all weightings by 10, I cannot give a bonus 1/1000 for the LD

  • Usually, just one decimal displayed in the scores should give only scores of nn.0 or nn.1, a race tie with an odd number of boat (3 3rds) is scored the average of the places (3-4-5, average 4.0).  Here, the weighting induces .1, .2, and so on

  • If calculation is made to two decimals, the effect of the weighting in scores is displayed

  • If calculation is made to one decimal, the LD score is truncated and the tie is not broken unless there is a large difference of ranks in LD

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 11:32 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

it's almost like a generalised A8.2 - breaks ties on races in 'this' order (instead of the default backwards and in Sailwave, the optional forwards).  Presumably you include discards - i.e. whether or not the LD race is discarded it's will used for your pre App A tie break rule..?  IN whicj case its exactly like a generalised 8.2 with 8.1 and 8.2 swapped round.

CJ

Philippe DE TROY wrote:

Mark,

  This is sometimes a matter of "Class culture"

  Example: Micro Class, and larges event, the Micro Cup, now World Championship of the Class

  The Micro Cup had a tradition, inherited from the Ton cups, a Championship format was 4 Olympic, 1 long distance (weigh 2.0), 1 medium distance race (weigh 1.5), one discard.

  Some long distance races were son hard that many boats (up to 1/3 of the fleet) didn't finish.

  Present trends are to increase the total number of races, now officialy 10, but organising nations are asking for 12, including the long distance. 

  But using race weight for the long distance means the race is non-discardable, otherwise 1/3 of the boats could go back home after the long distance race.  And if the race is made discardable with weight 2.0, it means half of the fleet discards this race, as points are higher than a DNF in another race, so better retire (or even don't start) if you are in the second half, not good for the image we are giving to the public.  Even in the first half, some competitors could consider to retire (if they are 7, but their usual place is less than 10, 14 points to discard). 

  To save the long distance race, there was only one solution : no weights, all races discardable, but to give very litle more importance to the race, tye on this race bodore aplying ISAF A.8

  Works perfectly with the French software FReg, but just impossible with Sailwave.  So when the organiser uses Sailwave or another software with similar properties, it is impossible to aply the Clas regulations.  See the last World Championship [http://www.microclass.org/results/MC08.html](http://www.microclass.org/results/MC08.html)      , the tye for the 3rd place could not be broken acording to Clas regulations, and it afects the final results.

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Townsend

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 1:58 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

    Why do you want to have a specific race break a tie? It seems an usual requirement

    You can make a race so that it is not discardable.

    You can weight a race so that it is given more importance than other races.

    You can have non standard discard options. Who beat who in the first race.









    Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: nusret@2000ler.com
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:42:24 +0200
Subject: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Hi All,

    I am new with Sailwave and examining the software. In scoring series, is there a way to check a specific race within the series to break a tie before applying the other options of ISAF Appendix A8.1 or A8.2 ?

Thanks,

Nusret

You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. See how



---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - [http://www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com/)
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1765 - Release Date: 03/11/2008 16:59

See how Windows® connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life Click here

20

Philippe,

I have no problem extending tie break (especially because of your
contrubution to the SUG) - its easy to add more rules and now that I
have the UI window to hide non-standard stuff I can do it without
overwhelming everybody…

The effort will not be adding a rule like this (which has been asked
for before) it’s specifying the order they are applied. Another common
request is instead of 8.1 and 8.2 go to the discards, which seems
eminently sensible to me and I’m amazed its not the App standard.

Colin

Philippe DE TROY wrote:

···

s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

sailwave@yahoogroups.com
philippe@detroy.org

Colin,

Not so simple.

The LD is no longer sailed on the last
day, but ususally mid-week as race 7.

So the rule is clearly on race 7,
further A8.1 then A8.2

In the schedule of the last world
championships, 11 races including 1 LD, no problem.

Should one organising nation opt for 10
races including LD and MD, MD as last race, then the rule could be tie
breaking on LD (R7), further on MD (R10) further according to A8.1 then
A8.2.

As here are two discards from 9 races,
and some top competitors don’t like LD and MD, then we could have a tie
for podium place with boats DNF on LD and MD, there must be a further
rule…

Selection in SW could be a first line
“Apply these rules first” and then a field to enter the rule (R7, or a
competitor field), further the present options

There are definitely problems with the
weighting as a solution

  • Sailwave does not alow more than 2
    decimals in weightings. So unless I multiply all weightings by 10, I
    cannot give a bonus 1/1000 for the LD
  • Usually, just one decimal displayed in
    the scores should give only scores of nn.0 or nn.1, a race tie with an
    odd number of boat (3 3rds) is scored the average of the places (3-4-5,
    average 4.0). Here, the weighting induces .1, .2, and so on
  • If calculation is made to two decimals,
    the effect of the weighting in scores is displayed
  • If calculation is made to one decimal,
    the LD score is truncated and the tie is not broken unless there is a
    large difference of ranks in LD

Phil

Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent:
Tuesday, November 04, 2008 11:32 AM

Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

it’s almost like a generalised A8.2 - breaks
ties on races in ‘this’ order (instead of the default backwards and in
Sailwave, the optional forwards). Presumably you include discards -
i.e. whether or not the LD race is discarded it’s will used for your
pre App A tie break rule…? IN whicj case its exactly like a
generalised 8.2 with 8.1 and 8.2 swapped round.

CJ

Philippe DE TROY wrote:

Mark,

This is sometimes
a matter of “Class culture”

Example: Micro Class,
and larges event, the Micro Cup, now World Championship of the Class

The Micro Cup had a
tradition, inherited from the Ton cups, a Championship format was 4
Olympic, 1 long distance (weigh 2.0), 1 medium distance race (weigh
1.5), one discard.

Some long distance
races were son hard that many boats (up to 1/3 of the fleet) didn’t
finish.

Present trends are to
increase the total number of races, now officialy 10, but organising
nations are asking for 12, including the long distance.

But using race weight
for the long distance means the race is non-discardable, otherwise 1/3
of the boats could go back home after the long distance race. And if
the race is made discardable with weight 2.0, it means half of the
fleet discards this race, as points are higher than a DNF in another
race, so better retire (or even don’t start) if you are in the second
half, not good for the image we are giving to the public. Even in the
first half, some competitors could consider to retire (if they are 7,
but their usual place is less than 10, 14 points to discard).

To save the long
distance race, there was only one solution : no weights, all races
discardable, but to give very litle more importance to the race, tye on
this race bodore aplying ISAF A.8

Works perfectly with
the French software FReg, but just impossible with Sailwave. So when
the organiser uses Sailwave or another software with similar
properties, it is impossible to aply the Clas regulations. See the
last World Championship http://www.microclass.org/results/MC08.html,
the tye for the 3rd place could not be broken acording to Clas
regulations, and it afects the final results.

Phil

Original Message -----

From:
Mark Townsend

To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent:
Tuesday, November 04, 2008 1:58 AM

Subject:
RE: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Why do you want to have a specific race break a tie? It seems an usual
requirement

You can make a race so that it is not discardable.

You can weight a race so that it is given more importance than other
races.

You can have non standard discard options. Who beat who in the first
race.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

From: nusret@2000ler.com

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 00:42:24 +0200

Subject: [sailwave] Tie Breaking

Hi All,

I am new with
Sailwave and examining the software. In scoring series, is there a way
to check a specific race within the series to break a tie before
applying the other options of ISAF Appendix A8.1 or A8.2 ?

Thanks,

Nusret

You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond
your PC. See how



---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - [http://www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com/)
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1765 - Release Date: 03/11/2008 16:59

See how Windows® connects the people, information, and fun
that are part of your life Click
here

http://www.avg.com