Club SIs

Sorry to be so negative again.

If you change the sailing instructions, this can alter who wins.

If it is done too late (how long is a piece of string) you invite a request for redress under RRS 62.

Be careful, advise at the briefing it may happen and do it ASAP as it is required.

Mike Butterfield

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 11:02 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

A good method to hold as much boats on the water till the last race is to
have the last discard with the max number of races planned, if needed you
change this number by amendment to the SI when it is clear that the max
number will not be reached.<<

We’ve started doing that for opens… goes down well…

CJ

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike & Trish Butterfield
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

See appendix A

A2 the starting point is low point one discard.

This can be changed.

Come back to me if you want on help on the Si,s.

Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Colin Jenkins
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:46 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Mike,

Thanks. My SIs are an attempt to reflect what actually happens at the
club - for exmple when running races from the roof we do not use flags -
just (very loud) beeps. WRT 10 - that’s just it - we race all over the
place and the start line and finish line are never the same place twice.
But perhaps an experiment that is doomed to failure based on the responses
here…

So can low point be assumed if no specific reference is made to low/bonus
point… I assumed you have to say which one you were going to use.

CJ

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf Of
Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 22 May 2007 22:11
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!

Si’s can be brief following appendix L

  1. Appendix L shorter
  2. this means nothing and can be discarded
    3 OK
  3. usually at the end
  4. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.
  5. see above
  6. ok
  7. ok
    9.ok
  8. where, please do not say verbally.
  9. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve
    this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are
    changing. look at Appendix A5.
  10. Appendix A applies in any event.
    ii ok
    iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did
    enough.

i what is the other end?
ii why M when you can fly the other 3 together?
iii why restrict yourself?
14
i just use the flags that is what they are for.
ii should this say amends RRS 26?
iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.
iv why bother
v does this confuse?

I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be
busy.

Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.

I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ
Member RYA Race Management Group

----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Tingle
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???
I think you have achieved a world record for brevity :wink:

If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that
are a billion years old!
You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do
establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club

I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how
people will know what the race track will be :-0

Happy to provide as much help as you need
Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards
Ralph

From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Club SIs

Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I’ve come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

Any glaring holes (probably)…?

CJ

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18:05

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14:01

At the A and F16 class nats we displayed the number of laps for each race on a blackboard on the committeeboat with an additional “M” if it was to be the “medal” race. Tupically, I forgot to look at the board and then wondered why the hell everyboay was doing America Cup type pre starts manoevouring - I still didn’t twig until everybody sailed in after the race :slight_smile: Ah that was the medal race - damn.

CJ

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 23 May 2007 11:48
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

Sorry to be so negative again.

If you change the sailing instructions, this can alter who wins.

If it is done too late (how long is a piece of string) you invite a request for redress under RRS 62.

Be careful, advise at the briefing it may happen and do it ASAP as it is required.

Mike Butterfield

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 11:02 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

>>A good method to hold as much boats on the water till the last race is to
have the last discard with the max number of races planned, if needed you
change this number by amendment to the SI when it is clear that the max

number will not be reached.<<

We've started doing that for opens... goes down well...

CJ

----- Original Message -----

From: Mike & Trish Butterfield
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

See appendix A

A2 the starting point is low point one discard.

This can be changed.

Come back to me if you want on help on the Si,s.

Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Colin Jenkins
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:46 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Mike,

Thanks. My SIs are an attempt to reflect what actually happens at the
club - for exmple when running races from the roof we do not use flags -
just (very loud) beeps. WRT 10 - that's just it - we race all over the
place and the start line and finish line are never the same place twice.
But perhaps an experiment that is doomed to failure based on the responses

here…

So can low point be assumed if no specific reference is made to low/bonus
point... I assumed you have to say which one you were going to use.

CJ

-----Original Message-----

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf Of
Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 22 May 2007 22:11
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!

Si’s can be brief following appendix L

1. Appendix L shorter
  1. this means nothing and can be discarded
    3 OK

  2. usually at the end
    5. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.

  3. see above

  4. ok

  5. ok
    9.ok
    10. where, please do not say verbally.
    11. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve
    this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are
    changing. look at Appendix A5.
    12. Appendix A applies in any event.
    ii ok
    iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did
    enough.

  6. i what is the other end?
    ii why M when you can fly the other 3 together?
    iii why restrict yourself?
    14
    i just use the flags that is what they are for.
    ii should this say amends RRS 26?
    iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.
    iv why bother
    v does this confuse?

    I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be
    busy.

    Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.

    I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ
Member RYA Race Management Group

----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Tingle
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???
I think you have achieved a world record for brevity :wink:

If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that

are a billion years old!
You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do
establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club

I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how
people will know what the race track will be :-0

Happy to provide as much help as you need
Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards
Ralph

From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Club SIs

Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I've come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

Any glaring holes (probably)...?

CJ

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.6/814 - Release Date: 21/05/2007

14:01

I agree.

But it could remain as an option, if properly done.

In the Micro Class, a World Championship uses to be organised on a period of 5 sailing days, 10 races, 3 races per day, one long inshore race (one day), one race may be a short inshore race (allows 1 short race on the same day), all other races are short windward-leeward, target time 60 to 90 minutes

Last day, at least 1 race required, no start after 13:00.

So each day 3 “slots”, a short race uses 1 slot, short offshore 2 slots, long offshore 3 slots, 13 slots needed, no more than 14 slots available (43, 12).

There is a second discard from 9 races sailed.

So…

1 slot lost, no action

2 slots lost, 9 races possible, no action

3 slots lost, replace the short inshore by a short race, 9 races possible, no other action, or short inshore sailed and action as for next point

4 slots lost, situation known no later than the end of day 2, 2nd discard granted from race 8, discretion of RC and with approval of the jury

5 slots lost or more, no action…

When there is any suspicion of giving an advantage to top crews, no action (current World Champion has already 1 OCS or DSQ, other top crew don’t have a bad race, especially when the current World Champion in from the host nation)

Phil

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Mike & Trish Butterfield

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 12:47 PM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

Sorry to be so negative again.

If you change the sailing instructions, this can alter who wins.

If it is done too late (how long is a piece of string) you invite a request for redress under RRS 62.

Be careful, advise at the briefing it may happen and do it ASAP as it is required.

Mike Butterfield

----- Original Message -----

From: Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 11:02 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

>>A good method to hold as much boats on the water till the last race is to
have the last discard with the max number of races planned, if needed you
change this number by amendment to the SI when it is clear that the max

number will not be reached.<<

We've started doing that for opens... goes down well...

CJ

----- Original Message -----

From: Mike & Trish Butterfield
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

See appendix A

A2 the starting point is low point one discard.

This can be changed.

Come back to me if you want on help on the Si,s.

Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Colin Jenkins
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:46 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Mike,

Thanks. My SIs are an attempt to reflect what actually happens at the
club - for exmple when running races from the roof we do not use flags -
just (very loud) beeps. WRT 10 - that's just it - we race all over the
place and the start line and finish line are never the same place twice.
But perhaps an experiment that is doomed to failure based on the responses

here…

So can low point be assumed if no specific reference is made to low/bonus
point... I assumed you have to say which one you were going to use.

CJ

-----Original Message-----

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf Of
Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 22 May 2007 22:11
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!

Si’s can be brief following appendix L

1. Appendix L shorter
  1. this means nothing and can be discarded
    3 OK

  2. usually at the end
    5. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.

  3. see above

  4. ok

  5. ok
    9.ok
    10. where, please do not say verbally.
    11. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve
    this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are
    changing. look at Appendix A5.
    12. Appendix A applies in any event.
    ii ok
    iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did
    enough.

  6. i what is the other end?
    ii why M when you can fly the other 3 together?
    iii why restrict yourself?
    14
    i just use the flags that is what they are for.
    ii should this say amends RRS 26?
    iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.
    iv why bother
    v does this confuse?

    I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be
    busy.

    Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.

    I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ
Member RYA Race Management Group

----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Tingle
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???
I think you have achieved a world record for brevity :wink:

If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that

are a billion years old!
You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do
establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club

I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how
people will know what the race track will be :-0

Happy to provide as much help as you need
Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards
Ralph

From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Club SIs

Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I've come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

Any glaring holes (probably)...?

CJ

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.6/814 - Release Date: 21/05/2007

14:01