Club SIs

Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I've come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

Any glaring holes (probably)...?

CJ

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

Minimal???

I think you have achieved a world record for brevity :wink:

If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing

Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that are a billion years old!

You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club

I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how people will know what the race track will be :-0

Happy to provide as much help as you need

Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards

Ralph

···

From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Club SIs

Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I’ve come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

Any glaring holes (probably)…?

CJ

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

Colin,

Whilst you have succeeded in producing a remarkable précis of the SIs I feel that they are to succinct to be of much use. The SIs become really important when there is a problem to be dealt with, which often ends up as a protest or request for redress. In this case the protest committee will refer only to the written text, not to your intentions or tradition. Most qualified Judges, myself included, would recommend that any departure from Appendix L should be undertaken only in extreme circumstances

Details count, for instance there is no reference to a schedule of races, nor to any other document which may inform competitors of races being run. There are no details of how competitors will be informed of changes to the SIs, changes to the schedule, protests etc.

Disturbingly both the IRPCS and RRS apply simultaneously. As there are important differences between the 2, you are creating an impossible situation for competitors. The usual practice is that only RRS apply except in particular circumstances (racing at night), when they cease to apply and IRPCS take over.

I can send you a copy of our club SIs should you so wish.

Gordon

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:24 AM

Subject: [sailwave] Club SIs

Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I’ve come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

Any glaring holes (probably)…?

CJ

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!

Si’s can be brief following appendix L

  1. Appendix L shorter

  2. this means nothing and can be discarded

3 OK

  1. usually at the end

  2. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.

  3. see above

  4. ok

  5. ok

9.ok

  1. where, please do not say verbally.

  2. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are changing. look at Appendix A5.

  3. Appendix A applies in any event.

ii ok

iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did enough.

i what is the other end?

ii why M when you can fly the other 3 together?

iii why restrict yourself?

14

i just use the flags that is what they are for.

ii should this say amends RRS 26?

iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.

iv why bother

v does this confuse?

I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be busy.

Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.

I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ

Member RYA Race Management Group

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???

I think you have achieved a world record for brevity :wink:

If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing

Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that are a billion years old!

You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club

I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how people will know what the race track will be :-0

Happy to provide as much help as you need

Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards

Ralph


From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] Club SIs

Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I’ve come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

Any glaring holes (probably)…?

CJ

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

Hear! hear!

Gordon

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Mike & Trish Butterfield

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:11 PM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!

Si’s can be brief following appendix L

  1. Appendix L shorter
  1. this means nothing and can be discarded

3 OK

  1. usually at the end
  1. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.
  1. see above
  1. ok
  1. ok

9.ok

  1. where, please do not say verbally.
  1. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are changing. look at Appendix A5.
  1. Appendix A applies in any event.

ii ok

iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did enough.

i what is the other end?

ii why M when you can fly the other 3 together?

iii why restrict yourself?

14

i just use the flags that is what they are for.

ii should this say amends RRS 26?

iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.

iv why bother

v does this confuse?

I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be busy.

Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.

I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ

Member RYA Race Management Group

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???

I think you have achieved a world record for brevity ;-)
If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that are a billion years old!
You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club
I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how people will know what the race track will be :-0
Happy to provide as much help as you need
Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards

Ralph


From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] Club SIs

Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I've come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

Any glaring holes (probably)...?

CJ

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

Mike,

Thanks. My SIs are an attempt to reflect what actually happens at the club - for exmple when running races from the roof we do not use flags - just (very loud) beeps. WRT 10 - that’s just it - we race all over the place and the start line and finish line are never the same place twice. But perhaps an experiment that is doomed to failure based on the responses here…

So can low point be assumed if no specific reference is made to low/bonus point… I assumed you have to say which one you were going to use.

CJ

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 22 May 2007 22:11
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!

Si’s can be brief following appendix L

  1. Appendix L shorter
  1. this means nothing and can be discarded

3 OK

  1. usually at the end
  1. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.
  1. see above
  1. ok
  1. ok

9.ok

  1. where, please do not say verbally.
  1. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are changing. look at Appendix A5.
  1. Appendix A applies in any event.

ii ok

iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did enough.

i what is the other end?

ii why M when you can fly the other 3 together?

iii why restrict yourself?

14

i just use the flags that is what they are for.

ii should this say amends RRS 26?

iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.

iv why bother

v does this confuse?

I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be busy.

Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.

I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ

Member RYA Race Management Group

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???

I think you have achieved a world record for brevity ;-)
If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that are a billion years old!
You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club
I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how people will know what the race track will be :-0
Happy to provide as much help as you need
Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards

Ralph


From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] Club SIs

Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I've come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

Any glaring holes (probably)...?

CJ

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did enough.

1.5 points - if somebody wants to do all the duty days just to say they’ve won a club series - let them… I’d prefer to be sailing than doing OOD. It’s been like that since about 300BC and works well.!!

CJ

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 22 May 2007 22:11
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!

Si’s can be brief following appendix L

  1. Appendix L shorter
  1. this means nothing and can be discarded

3 OK

  1. usually at the end
  1. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.
  1. see above
  1. ok
  1. ok

9.ok

  1. where, please do not say verbally.
  1. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are changing. look at Appendix A5.
  1. Appendix A applies in any event.

ii ok

iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did enough.

i what is the other end?

ii why M when you can fly the other 3 together?

iii why restrict yourself?

14

i just use the flags that is what they are for.

ii should this say amends RRS 26?

iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.

iv why bother

v does this confuse?

I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be busy.

Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.

I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ

Member RYA Race Management Group

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???

I think you have achieved a world record for brevity ;-)
If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that are a billion years old!
You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club
I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how people will know what the race track will be :-0
Happy to provide as much help as you need
Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards

Ralph


From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] Club SIs

Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I've come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

Any glaring holes (probably)...?

CJ

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

Ah, I see what you mean re :-

"A start line, finish line, course and number of laps shall be specified on the day. "

But again I was trying to reflect what actually happens - sometimes the OOD will use the blackboard, some use the noticeboard, some get there late and come out on a rib - the old SIs were specific but constantly ignored so I went wooly to reflect what actually happens in reality and that reality is not painful - as long as we all know what the course is nobody seems to mind how that information is relayed. Too chilled perhaps…!

CJ

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 22 May 2007 22:11
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!

Si’s can be brief following appendix L

  1. Appendix L shorter
  1. this means nothing and can be discarded

3 OK

  1. usually at the end
  1. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.
  1. see above
  1. ok
  1. ok

9.ok

  1. where, please do not say verbally.
  1. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are changing. look at Appendix A5.
  1. Appendix A applies in any event.

ii ok

iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did enough.

i what is the other end?

ii why M when you can fly the other 3 together?

iii why restrict yourself?

14

i just use the flags that is what they are for.

ii should this say amends RRS 26?

iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.

iv why bother

v does this confuse?

I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be busy.

Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.

I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ

Member RYA Race Management Group

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???

I think you have achieved a world record for brevity ;-)
If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that are a billion years old!
You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club
I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how people will know what the race track will be :-0
Happy to provide as much help as you need
Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards

Ralph


From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] Club SIs

Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I've come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

Any glaring holes (probably)...?

CJ

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

:slight_smile:

OK, I give up - my revolution has fizzled out - I’ll have another go based on App L.

CJ

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of gordon davies
Sent: 22 May 2007 22:30
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

Hear! hear!

Gordon

----- Original Message -----

From:
Mike & Trish Butterfield

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:11 PM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!
Si's can be brief following appendix L
  1. Appendix L shorter
2. this means nothing and can be discarded

3 OK

  1. usually at the end
5. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.
  1. see above
  1. ok
  1. ok

9.ok

10. where, please do not say verbally.
11. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are changing. look at Appendix A5.
12. Appendix A applies in any event.

ii ok

iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did enough.

i what is the other end?

ii why  M when you can fly the other 3 together?

iii why restrict yourself?

14

i just use the flags that is what they are for.

ii should this say amends RRS 26?

iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.

iv why bother

v does this confuse?

I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be busy.
Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.
I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ

Member RYA Race Management Group

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???

  I think you have achieved a world record for brevity ;-)
  If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
  Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that are a billion years old!
  You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club
  I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how people will know what the race track will be :-0
  Happy to provide as much help as you need
  Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards

Ralph


From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] Club SIs

  Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
  already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I've come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

  Any glaring holes (probably)...?

CJ

  No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

In my experience, courses on blackboards, or verbally given courses lead to problems. It is very frustrating for a protest committee to have to spend considerable time establishing what instructions were given to competitors. Write the course on paper -and append the course sheet to the results sheets.

Gordon

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:06 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Ah, I see what you mean re :-

" A start line, finish line, course and number of laps shall be specified on the day. "

But again I was trying to reflect what actually happens - sometimes the OOD will use the blackboard, some use the noticeboard, some get there late and come out on a rib - the old SIs were specific but constantly ignored so I went wooly to reflect what actually happens in reality and that reality is not painful - as long as we all know what the course is nobody seems to mind how that information is relayed. Too chilled perhaps…!

CJ

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 22 May 2007 22:11
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!
Si's can be brief following appendix L
  1. Appendix L shorter
2. this means nothing and can be discarded

3 OK

  1. usually at the end
5. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.
  1. see above
  1. ok
  1. ok

9.ok

10. where, please do not say verbally.
11. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are changing. look at Appendix A5.
12. Appendix A applies in any event.

ii ok

iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did enough.

i what is the other end?

ii why  M when you can fly the other 3 together?

iii why restrict yourself?

14

i just use the flags that is what they are for.

ii should this say amends RRS 26?

iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.

iv why bother

v does this confuse?

I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be busy.
Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.
I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ

Member RYA Race Management Group

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???

  I think you have achieved a world record for brevity ;-)
  If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
  Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that are a billion years old!
  You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club
  I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how people will know what the race track will be :-0
  Happy to provide as much help as you need
  Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards

Ralph


From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] Club SIs

  Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
  already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I've come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

  Any glaring holes (probably)...?

CJ

  No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

Hi Gordon,

I can’t remember anybody protesting. I think perhaps because often we all treat club racing as a practice session for events we go away to rather than something we try and win itself. For example I can often been seen tacking and gybing my A every 10 seconds or so during a club race - ditto the sipnnaker cats who often practice hoists. We also like to practice gong round corners and last weekend has a small course with about 10 laps which was great for the spinny boats. Not always of course, sometimes we actually race! It’s all very chilled.

CJ

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of gordon davies
Sent: 23 May 2007 06:20
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

In my experience, courses on blackboards, or verbally given courses lead to problems. It is very frustrating for a protest committee to have to spend considerable time establishing what instructions were given to competitors. Write the course on paper -and append the course sheet to the results sheets.

Gordon

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:06 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Ah, I see what you mean re :-

" A start line, finish line, course and number of laps shall be specified on the day. "

But again I was trying to reflect what actually happens - sometimes the OOD will use the blackboard, some use the noticeboard, some get there late and come out on a rib - the old SIs were specific but constantly ignored so I went wooly to reflect what actually happens in reality and that reality is not painful - as long as we all know what the course is nobody seems to mind how that information is relayed.  Too chilled  perhaps...!

CJ

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 22 May 2007 22:11
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

  I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!
  Si's can be brief following appendix L
  1. Appendix L shorter
  2. this means nothing and can be discarded

3 OK

  1. usually at the end
  5. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.
  1. see above
  1. ok
  1. ok

9.ok

  10. where, please do not say verbally.
  11. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are changing. look at Appendix A5.
  12. Appendix A applies in any event.

ii ok

  iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did enough.

i what is the other end?

  ii why  M when you can fly the other 3 together?

iii why restrict yourself?

14

  i just use the flags that is what they are for.

ii should this say amends RRS 26?

  iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.

iv why bother

v does this confuse?

  I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be busy.
  Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.
  I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ

Member RYA Race Management Group

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???

    I think you have achieved a world record for brevity ;-)
    If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
    Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that are a billion years old!
    You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club
    I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how people will know what the race track will be :-0
    Happy to provide as much help as you need
    Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards

Ralph


From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] Club SIs

    Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
    already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I've come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

    Any glaring holes (probably)...?

CJ

    No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

We have at least one protest a year invoking RRS 28 - usually a cruiser accusing another boat of missing a mark. Invariably we are confronted with 2 problems:

  • the course was written on the blackboard and has since been wiped off;

  • sloppy course setting often in the form of : “Start, Mark A, Mark B, Mark C x2” . Inevitably there is a debate about whether boats have to sail through the start line at the end of the first lap.

The protest committee is faced with the necessity to take witnesses in order to ascertain the exact course, and then interpret what the required course actually was.

All this for a motley fleet of bilge keelers and a class who insist that they only “race for fun”!

Gordon

PS My theory is that if there are no protests in club racing - either there is widespread ignorance of the rules, or they are being ignored. I believe that protests are a healthy sign in any fleet - but as an NJ I would say that wouldn’t I

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:31 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Hi Gordon,

I can’t remember anybody protesting. I think perhaps because often we all treat club racing as a practice session for events we go away to rather than something we try and win itself. For example I can often been seen tacking and gybing my A every 10 seconds or so during a club race - ditto the sipnnaker cats who often practice hoists. We also like to practice gong round corners and last weekend has a small course with about 10 laps which was great for the spinny boats. Not always of course, sometimes we actually race! It’s all very chilled.

CJ

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of gordon davies
Sent: 23 May 2007 06:20
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

In my experience, courses on blackboards, or verbally given courses lead to problems. It is very frustrating for a protest committee to have to spend considerable time establishing what instructions were given to competitors. Write the course on paper -and append the course sheet to the results sheets.

Gordon

----- Original Message -----

From: Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:06 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Ah, I see what you mean re :-

" A start line, finish line, course and number of laps shall be specified on the day. "

  But again I was trying to reflect what actually happens - sometimes the OOD will use the blackboard, some use the noticeboard, some get there late and come out on a rib - the old SIs were specific but constantly ignored so I went wooly to reflect what actually happens in reality and that reality is not painful - as long as we all know what the course is nobody seems to mind how that information is relayed.  Too chilled  perhaps...!

CJ

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 22 May 2007 22:11
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

    I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!
    Si's can be brief following appendix L
  1. Appendix L shorter
    2. this means nothing and can be discarded

3 OK

  1. usually at the end
    5. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.
  1. see above
  1. ok
  1. ok

9.ok

    10. where, please do not say verbally.
    11. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are changing. look at Appendix A5.
    12. Appendix A applies in any event.

ii ok

    iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did enough.

i what is the other end?

    ii why  M when you can fly the other 3 together?

iii why restrict yourself?

14

    i just use the flags that is what they are for.
    ii should this say amends RRS 26?
    iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.

iv why bother

v does this confuse?

    I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be busy.
    Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.
    I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ

    Member RYA Race Management Group

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???

      I think you have achieved a world record for brevity ;-)
      If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
      Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that are a billion years old!
      You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club
      I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how people will know what the race track will be :-0
      Happy to provide as much help as you need
      Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards

Ralph


From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] Club SIs

      Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
      already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I've come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

      Any glaring holes (probably)...?

CJ

      No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

Gordon,

PS My theory is that if there are no protests in club racing - either

there is widespread ignorance of the rules, or they are being ignored. I
believe that protests are a healthy sign in any fleet - but as an NJ I would
say that wouldn't I<<

Possibly, but we do get the rule book out and have kangaroo courts in the
bar.

I'm sure this is all sounding like a horror story for you pros - I suspect
Mike still has not recovered from my SIs :slight_smile:

Perhaps it's time for a change and perhaps changing to SIs to reflect
reality was a mistake - better to change reality to good SIs (that will be a
serious uphill struggle)...? after all when you go away to an event you're
going to get APP L based ones, not CJ type ones...

:slight_smile:

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

···

----- Original Message -----
From: Colin Jenkins
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:31 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Hi Gordon,

I can't remember anybody protesting. I think perhaps because often we all
treat club racing as a practice session for events we go away to rather than
something we try and win itself. For example I can often been seen tacking
and gybing my A every 10 seconds or so during a club race - ditto the
sipnnaker cats who often practice hoists. We also like to practice gong
round corners and last weekend has a small course with about 10 laps which
was great for the spinny boats. Not always of course, sometimes we actually
race! It's all very chilled.

CJ

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
gordon davies
Sent: 23 May 2007 06:20
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

In my experience, courses on blackboards, or verbally given courses lead to
problems. It is very frustrating for a protest committee to have to spend
considerable time establishing what instructions were given to competitors.
Write the course on paper -and append the course sheet to the results
sheets.

Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: Colin Jenkins
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:06 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Ah, I see what you mean re :-

"A start line, finish line, course and number of laps shall be specified on
the day. "

But again I was trying to reflect what actually happens - sometimes the OOD
will use the blackboard, some use the noticeboard, some get there late and
come out on a rib - the old SIs were specific but constantly ignored so I
went wooly to reflect what actually happens in reality and that reality is
not painful - as long as we all know what the course is nobody seems to mind
how that information is relayed. Too chilled perhaps...!

CJ

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 22 May 2007 22:11
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!

Si's can be brief following appendix L

1. Appendix L shorter
2. this means nothing and can be discarded
3 OK
4. usually at the end
5. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.
6. see above
7. ok
8. ok
9.ok
10. where, please do not say verbally.
11. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve
this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are
changing. look at Appendix A5.
12. Appendix A applies in any event.
ii ok
iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did
enough.
13.
i what is the other end?
ii why M when you can fly the other 3 together?
iii why restrict yourself?
14
i just use the flags that is what they are for.
ii should this say amends RRS 26?
iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.
iv why bother
v does this confuse?

I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be
busy.

Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.

I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ
Member RYA Race Management Group

----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Tingle
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???
I think you have achieved a world record for brevity :wink:

If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that
are a billion years old!
You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do
establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club

I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how
people will know what the race track will be :-0

Happy to provide as much help as you need
Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards
Ralph

From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Club SIs

Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I've come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

Any glaring holes (probably)...?

CJ

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.6/814 - Release Date: 21/05/2007
14:01

See appendix A

A2 the starting point is low point one discard.

This can be changed.

Come back to me if you want on help on the Si,s.

Mike

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:46 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Mike,

Thanks. My SIs are an attempt to reflect what actually happens at the club - for exmple when running races from the roof we do not use flags - just (very loud) beeps. WRT 10 - that’s just it - we race all over the place and the start line and finish line are never the same place twice. But perhaps an experiment that is doomed to failure based on the responses here…

So can low point be assumed if no specific reference is made to low/bonus point… I assumed you have to say which one you were going to use.

CJ

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 22 May 2007 22:11
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!
Si's can be brief following appendix L
  1. Appendix L shorter
2. this means nothing and can be discarded

3 OK

  1. usually at the end
5. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.
  1. see above
  1. ok
  1. ok

9.ok

10. where, please do not say verbally.
11. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are changing. look at Appendix A5.
12. Appendix A applies in any event.

ii ok

iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did enough.

i what is the other end?

ii why  M when you can fly the other 3 together?

iii why restrict yourself?

14

i just use the flags that is what they are for.

ii should this say amends RRS 26?

iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.

iv why bother

v does this confuse?

I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be busy.
Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.
I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ

Member RYA Race Management Group

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???

  I think you have achieved a world record for brevity ;-)
  If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
  Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that are a billion years old!
  You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club
  I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how people will know what the race track will be :-0
  Happy to provide as much help as you need
  Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards

Ralph


From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] Club SIs

  Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
  already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I've come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

  Any glaring holes (probably)...?

CJ

  No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

Colin,

Solving the problems at the bar is a bad solution.

Even if it is club racing, it has to be didactical, and solutions found at the bar depends on the number of beers offered before the “hearing” begins, there are no evidences, only influences.

Even for club racing, all problems should be submitted to a protest committee (could be the race committee or part thereof in club racing), and this one is suppose to find evidences and make decisions according to the RRS, this committee can also decide (but don’t tell it) that the infringer receives a penalty in beers.

Phil De Troy

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:55 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Gordon,

PS My theory is that if there are no protests in club racing - either
there is widespread ignorance of the rules, or they are being ignored. I
believe that protests are a healthy sign in any fleet - but as an NJ I would
say that wouldn’t I<<

Possibly, but we do get the rule book out and have kangaroo courts in the
bar.

I’m sure this is all sounding like a horror story for you pros - I suspect
Mike still has not recovered from my SIs :slight_smile:

Perhaps it’s time for a change and perhaps changing to SIs to reflect
reality was a mistake - better to change reality to good SIs (that will be a
serious uphill struggle)…? after all when you go away to an event you’re
going to get APP L based ones, not CJ type ones…

:slight_smile:

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Colin Jenkins
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:31 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Hi Gordon,

I can’t remember anybody protesting. I think perhaps because often we all
treat club racing as a practice session for events we go away to rather than
something we try and win itself. For example I can often been seen tacking
and gybing my A every 10 seconds or so during a club race - ditto the
sipnnaker cats who often practice hoists. We also like to practice gong
round corners and last weekend has a small course with about 10 laps which
was great for the spinny boats. Not always of course, sometimes we actually
race! It’s all very chilled.

CJ

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf Of
gordon davies
Sent: 23 May 2007 06:20
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

In my experience, courses on blackboards, or verbally given courses lead to
problems. It is very frustrating for a protest committee to have to spend
considerable time establishing what instructions were given to competitors.
Write the course on paper -and append the course sheet to the results
sheets.

Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: Colin Jenkins
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:06 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Ah, I see what you mean re :-

"A start line, finish line, course and number of laps shall be specified on
the day. "

But again I was trying to reflect what actually happens - sometimes the OOD
will use the blackboard, some use the noticeboard, some get there late and
come out on a rib - the old SIs were specific but constantly ignored so I
went wooly to reflect what actually happens in reality and that reality is
not painful - as long as we all know what the course is nobody seems to mind
how that information is relayed. Too chilled perhaps…!

CJ

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf Of
Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 22 May 2007 22:11
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!

Si’s can be brief following appendix L

  1. Appendix L shorter
  2. this means nothing and can be discarded
    3 OK
  3. usually at the end
  4. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.
  5. see above
  6. ok
  7. ok
    9.ok
  8. where, please do not say verbally.
  9. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve
    this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are
    changing. look at Appendix A5.
  10. Appendix A applies in any event.
    ii ok
    iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did
    enough.

i what is the other end?
ii why M when you can fly the other 3 together?
iii why restrict yourself?
14
i just use the flags that is what they are for.
ii should this say amends RRS 26?
iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.
iv why bother
v does this confuse?

I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be
busy.

Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.

I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ
Member RYA Race Management Group

----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Tingle
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???
I think you have achieved a world record for brevity :wink:

If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that
are a billion years old!
You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do
establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club

I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how
people will know what the race track will be :-0

Happy to provide as much help as you need
Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards
Ralph

From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Club SIs

Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I’ve come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

Any glaring holes (probably)…?

CJ

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.6/814 - Release Date: 21/05/2007
14:01

Low point anyway…

The Bonus system is sometimes applied, but the philosphy of this system show it was intended for manual computing (5,7 is short for 5 2/3, so 11,7 + 5,7 + 11,7 should be 29,0 instead of 29,1, and it should be considered as a tye with 8 + 8 + 13, the tye should be broken by the number of 3rd places …)

Number of discards, there is no rule.

The highest the level of the regatta, the lowest the number of discards.

Too many discards mean more OCS and more DSQ, and competitors leaving two races before the end as their ranking can no longer be affected.

A tradition is more than 3 races, 1 discard, more than 8 races 2 discards, more than 15 races 3 discards _ rule : integer(NbRaces=(Discards+1)^2) or Discards = integer(NbRaces^0.5-1)

A good method to hold as much boats on the water till the last race is to have the last discard with the max number of races planned, if needed you change this number by amendment to the SI when it is clear that the max number will not be reached.

Phil

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Mike & Trish Butterfield

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 11:09 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

See appendix A

A2 the starting point is low point one discard.

This can be changed.

Come back to me if you want on help on the Si,s.

Mike

----- Original Message -----

From: Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:46 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Mike,

Thanks.  My SIs are an attempt to reflect what actually happens at the club - for exmple when running races from the roof we do not use flags - just (very loud) beeps.  WRT 10 - that's just it - we race all over the place and the start line and finish line are never the same place twice.  But perhaps an experiment that is doomed to failure based on the responses here...
So can low point be assumed if no specific reference is made to low/bonus point...  I assumed you have to say which one you were going to use.

CJ

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 22 May 2007 22:11
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

  I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!
  Si's can be brief following appendix L
  1. Appendix L shorter
  2. this means nothing and can be discarded

3 OK

  1. usually at the end
  5. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.
  1. see above
  1. ok
  1. ok

9.ok

  10. where, please do not say verbally.
  11. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are changing. look at Appendix A5.
  12. Appendix A applies in any event.

ii ok

  iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did enough.

i what is the other end?

  ii why  M when you can fly the other 3 together?

iii why restrict yourself?

14

  i just use the flags that is what they are for.

ii should this say amends RRS 26?

  iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.

iv why bother

v does this confuse?

  I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be busy.
  Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.
  I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ

Member RYA Race Management Group

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???

    I think you have achieved a world record for brevity ;-)
    If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
    Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that are a billion years old!
    You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club
    I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how people will know what the race track will be :-0
    Happy to provide as much help as you need
    Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards

Ralph


From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] Club SIs

    Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
    already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I've come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

    Any glaring holes (probably)...?

CJ

    No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

If there is an “incident” but no-one protests, I have used the details (such as I can ascertain them) as an example for a rules evening. The debate is always more interesting when the examples are real, and especially when the protagonists are present.

Gordon

Ps I’d like to see how you write a “beer” penalty into AppL Sis. RRS 64.1 does allow for alternative penalties, but they would have to be mentioned in the SIs and/or the NOR

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
FFYB Web Manager

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:34 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

Colin,

Solving the problems at the bar is a bad solution.

Even if it is club racing, it has to be didactical, and solutions found at the bar depends on the number of beers offered before the “hearing” begins, there are no evidences, only influences.

Even for club racing, all problems should be submitted to a protest committee (could be the race committee or part thereof in club racing), and this one is suppose to find evidences and make decisions according to the RRS, this committee can also decide (but don’t tell it) that the infringer receives a penalty in beers.

Phil De Troy

----- Original Message -----

From: Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:55 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Gordon,

>>PS My theory is that if there are no protests in club racing - either
there is widespread ignorance of the rules, or they are being ignored. I
believe that protests are a healthy sign in any fleet - but as an NJ I would

say that wouldn’t I<<

Possibly, but we do get the rule book out and have kangaroo courts in the

bar.

I'm sure this is all sounding like a horror story for you pros - I suspect
Mike still has not recovered from my SIs :-)

Perhaps it's time for a change and perhaps changing to SIs to reflect
reality was a mistake - better to change reality to good SIs (that will be a

serious uphill struggle)… ? after all when you go away to an event you’re
going to get APP L based ones, not CJ type ones…

:slight_smile:

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Colin Jenkins
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:31 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Hi Gordon,

I can't remember anybody protesting. I think perhaps because often we all
treat club racing as a practice session for events we go away to rather than
something we try and win itself. For example I can often been seen tacking
and gybing my A every 10 seconds or so during a club race - ditto the
sipnnaker cats who often practice hoists. We also like to practice gong
round corners and last weekend has a small course with about 10 laps which
was great for the spinny boats. Not always of course, sometimes we actually
race! It's all very chilled.

CJ

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf Of
gordon davies
Sent: 23 May 2007 06:20
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

In my experience, courses on blackboards, or verbally given courses lead to
problems. It is very frustrating for a protest committee to have to spend
considerable time establishing what instructions were given to competitors.
Write the course on paper -and append the course sheet to the results

sheets.

Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: Colin Jenkins
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:06 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Ah, I see what you mean re :-

"A start line, finish line, course and number of laps shall be specified on

the day. "

But again I was trying to reflect what actually happens - sometimes the OOD
will use the blackboard, some use the noticeboard, some get there late and
come out on a rib - the old SIs were specific but constantly ignored so I
went wooly to reflect what actually happens in reality and that reality is
not painful - as long as we all know what the course is nobody seems to mind
how that information is relayed. Too chilled perhaps...!

CJ

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf Of
Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 22 May 2007 22:11
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!

Si’s can be brief following appendix L

1. Appendix L shorter
  1. this means nothing and can be discarded
    3 OK

  2. usually at the end
    5. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.

  3. see above

  4. ok

  5. ok
    9.ok
    10. where, please do not say verbally.
    11. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve
    this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are
    changing. look at Appendix A5.
    12. Appendix A applies in any event.
    ii ok
    iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did
    enough.

  6. i what is the other end?
    ii why M when you can fly the other 3 together?
    iii why restrict yourself?
    14
    i just use the flags that is what they are for.
    ii should this say amends RRS 26?
    iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.
    iv why bother
    v does this confuse?

    I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be
    busy.

    Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.

    I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ
Member RYA Race Management Group

----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Tingle
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???
I think you have achieved a world record for brevity :wink:

If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that

are a billion years old!
You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do
establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club

I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how
people will know what the race track will be :-0

Happy to provide as much help as you need
Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards
Ralph

From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Club SIs

Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I've come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

Any glaring holes (probably)...?

CJ

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.6/814 - Release Date: 21/05/2007

14:01

A good method to hold as much boats on the water till the last race is to

have the last discard with the max number of races planned, if needed you
change this number by amendment to the SI when it is clear that the max
number will not be reached.<<

We've started doing that for opens... goes down well...

CJ

···

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike & Trish Butterfield
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

See appendix A

A2 the starting point is low point one discard.

This can be changed.

Come back to me if you want on help on the Si,s.

Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Colin Jenkins
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:46 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Mike,

Thanks. My SIs are an attempt to reflect what actually happens at the
club - for exmple when running races from the roof we do not use flags -
just (very loud) beeps. WRT 10 - that's just it - we race all over the
place and the start line and finish line are never the same place twice.
But perhaps an experiment that is doomed to failure based on the responses
here...

So can low point be assumed if no specific reference is made to low/bonus
point... I assumed you have to say which one you were going to use.

CJ

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 22 May 2007 22:11
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!

Si's can be brief following appendix L

1. Appendix L shorter
2. this means nothing and can be discarded
3 OK
4. usually at the end
5. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.
6. see above
7. ok
8. ok
9.ok
10. where, please do not say verbally.
11. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve
this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are
changing. look at Appendix A5.
12. Appendix A applies in any event.
ii ok
iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did
enough.
13.
i what is the other end?
ii why M when you can fly the other 3 together?
iii why restrict yourself?
14
i just use the flags that is what they are for.
ii should this say amends RRS 26?
iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.
iv why bother
v does this confuse?

I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be
busy.

Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.

I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ
Member RYA Race Management Group

----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Tingle
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???
I think you have achieved a world record for brevity :wink:

If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that
are a billion years old!
You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do
establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club

I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how
people will know what the race track will be :-0

Happy to provide as much help as you need
Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards
Ralph

From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Club SIs

Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I've come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

Any glaring holes (probably)...?

CJ

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.6/814 - Release Date: 21/05/2007
14:01

The RYA have Rules Disputes procedures for Advisory hearings.

We teach how to run Advisory hearings in the bar.

I am running a day course at Pwllheli on 10 th June, other RYA regions have other dates to be fixed.

Mike Butterfield NJ IU IRO

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
FFYB Web Manager

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:34 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

Colin,

Solving the problems at the bar is a bad solution.

Even if it is club racing, it has to be didactical, and solutions found at the bar depends on the number of beers offered before the “hearing” begins, there are no evidences, only influences.

Even for club racing, all problems should be submitted to a protest committee (could be the race committee or part thereof in club racing), and this one is suppose to find evidences and make decisions according to the RRS, this committee can also decide (but don’t tell it) that the infringer receives a penalty in beers.

Phil De Troy

----- Original Message -----

From: Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:55 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Gordon,

>>PS My theory is that if there are no protests in club racing - either
there is widespread ignorance of the rules, or they are being ignored. I
believe that protests are a healthy sign in any fleet - but as an NJ I would

say that wouldn’t I<<

Possibly, but we do get the rule book out and have kangaroo courts in the

bar.

I'm sure this is all sounding like a horror story for you pros - I suspect
Mike still has not recovered from my SIs :-)

Perhaps it's time for a change and perhaps changing to SIs to reflect
reality was a mistake - better to change reality to good SIs (that will be a

serious uphill struggle)… ? after all when you go away to an event you’re
going to get APP L based ones, not CJ type ones…

:slight_smile:

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Colin Jenkins
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:31 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Hi Gordon,

I can't remember anybody protesting. I think perhaps because often we all
treat club racing as a practice session for events we go away to rather than
something we try and win itself. For example I can often been seen tacking
and gybing my A every 10 seconds or so during a club race - ditto the
sipnnaker cats who often practice hoists. We also like to practice gong
round corners and last weekend has a small course with about 10 laps which
was great for the spinny boats. Not always of course, sometimes we actually
race! It's all very chilled.

CJ

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf Of
gordon davies
Sent: 23 May 2007 06:20
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

In my experience, courses on blackboards, or verbally given courses lead to
problems. It is very frustrating for a protest committee to have to spend
considerable time establishing what instructions were given to competitors.
Write the course on paper -and append the course sheet to the results

sheets.

Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: Colin Jenkins
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:06 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Ah, I see what you mean re :-

"A start line, finish line, course and number of laps shall be specified on

the day. "

But again I was trying to reflect what actually happens - sometimes the OOD
will use the blackboard, some use the noticeboard, some get there late and
come out on a rib - the old SIs were specific but constantly ignored so I
went wooly to reflect what actually happens in reality and that reality is
not painful - as long as we all know what the course is nobody seems to mind
how that information is relayed. Too chilled perhaps...!

CJ

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf Of
Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 22 May 2007 22:11
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!

Si’s can be brief following appendix L

1. Appendix L shorter
  1. this means nothing and can be discarded
    3 OK

  2. usually at the end
    5. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.

  3. see above

  4. ok

  5. ok
    9.ok
    10. where, please do not say verbally.
    11. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve
    this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are
    changing. look at Appendix A5.
    12. Appendix A applies in any event.
    ii ok
    iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did
    enough.

  6. i what is the other end?
    ii why M when you can fly the other 3 together?
    iii why restrict yourself?
    14
    i just use the flags that is what they are for.
    ii should this say amends RRS 26?
    iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.
    iv why bother
    v does this confuse?

    I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be
    busy.

    Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.

    I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ
Member RYA Race Management Group

----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Tingle
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???
I think you have achieved a world record for brevity :wink:

If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that

are a billion years old!
You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do
establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club

I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how
people will know what the race track will be :-0

Happy to provide as much help as you need
Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards
Ralph

From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Club SIs

Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I've come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

Any glaring holes (probably)...?

CJ

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.6/814 - Release Date: 21/05/2007

14:01

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 11:02 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

A good method to hold as much boats on the water till the last race is to
have the last discard with the max number of races planned, if needed you
change this number by amendment to the SI when it is clear that the max
number will not be reached.<<

We’ve started doing that for opens… goes down well…

CJ

From: Mike & Trish Butterfield
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

See appendix A

A2 the starting point is low point one discard.

This can be changed.

Come back to me if you want on help on the Si,s.

Mike
From: Colin Jenkins
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:46 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Mike,

Thanks. My SIs are an attempt to reflect what actually happens at the
club - for exmple when running races from the roof we do not use flags -
just (very loud) beeps. WRT 10 - that’s just it - we race all over the
place and the start line and finish line are never the same place twice.
But perhaps an experiment that is doomed to failure based on the responses
here…

So can low point be assumed if no specific reference is made to low/bonus
point… I assumed you have to say which one you were going to use.

CJ

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf Of
Mike & Trish Butterfield
Sent: 22 May 2007 22:11
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club SIs

I have had a quick look at the SI, I find them a nightmare!

Si’s can be brief following appendix L

  1. Appendix L shorter
  2. this means nothing and can be discarded
    3 OK
  3. usually at the end
  4. a notice of race item, should be in club handbook.
  5. see above
  6. ok
  7. ok
    9.ok
  8. where, please do not say verbally.
  9. They get this penalty in any event, but you have to protest to achieve
    this. If you do not want to protest you have to specify the rule you are
    changing. look at Appendix A5.
  10. Appendix A applies in any event.
    ii ok
    iii is this 1.5 points or something else. I could win the series if I did
    enough.

i what is the other end?
ii why M when you can fly the other 3 together?
iii why restrict yourself?
14
i just use the flags that is what they are for.
ii should this say amends RRS 26?
iii there is no reqiurement for this in the rules it can be deleted.
iv why bother
v does this confuse?

I would ask that you review this as otherwise the protest committee will be
busy.

Tell me what you want and I can draft something for you if you wish.

I would recommend these are revisited.

Mike Butterfield IRO IU NJ
Member RYA Race Management Group

From: Ralph Tingle
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:57 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Club SIs

Minimal???
I think you have achieved a world record for brevity :wink:

If you look at Appendix L you will see all sorts of elements missing
Remember, the SIs should be written for new members as well as those that
are a billion years old!
You are quite right that the SIs should not restate the rules but they do
establish how the rules are applied to racing at your club

I suppose one glaring hole is that it might be advisable to include how
people will know what the race track will be :-0

Happy to provide as much help as you need
Suggest we do it outside SUG if you want to take up the offer

Regards
Ralph

From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 19 May 2007 11:25
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Club SIs

Our club SIs are about a billion years old and seem to restate everything
already in the RRS. In at attempt at a minimal set I’ve come up with this:-

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/racing_sis.php

Any glaring holes (probably)…?

CJ

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.1/807 - Release Date: 16/05/2007
18:05

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.6/814 - Release Date: 21/05/2007
14:01

···

----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
-----Original Message-----
----- Original Message -----