computerised sign on/off and real time recording

Terry · 1 April 2009 17:29

Hi Mark,

Thank you very much for your very interesting and complete
response. I did take your previous email back to the Dinghy Captain and it was
decided to stick to the original score and not make any further changes now as
results have already been announced.

I was also informed that the decision was in fact to Penalise
Hal in Race 5 by awarding him a time penalty (for not taking the penalty turn)
and the time penalty would have been enough to place Hal second. As I was not
scoring SW with elapsed times and thought it would be good to reflect an
alteration by showing RDG (perhaps as you point out, this should have been SCP)

Anyhow, I read your posting with great interest and feel I now
know a lot more about scoring. I will also pass your comments on to those
involved.

Thanks again for your time and interest

Regards

Terry

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 01 April 2009 13:49
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

As
the scorer send this one back to the protest committee and request they
clarify their scoring instructions.

It
seems the result the protest committee wants is 1st Tim, 2nd Hal. The
result on the water was 1st Hal, 2nd Tim. You need to know which rules
they are using to get to the desired result so that the results can have the
correct scoring codes.

Request
clarification of the following; what are the facts found, what rules apply,
which boats scores should be adjusted, and which rule is being used to adjust
each score. Specifically how did the protest committee find in respect to the
following rules?

```
 Rule
```

64.1(a) requires that if Hal was found to have broken a rule he
should be disqualified, unless some other penalty applies. I don’t see any
other penalty applying?

```
 Under
```

which part of Rule 62 are they granting redress to Hal? If anyone the
redress should be to Tim? Although I don’t see how they can give redress
to anyone given the described situation.

```
 Under
```

64.2 they can “make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats
affected”, however there are more boats affected than just Hal and
Tim. What about Rebecca, who as a result of the protest and the granted
redress will no longer win the Winter Series, was this considered?

If
they want the result that you have expressed, then they should have issued
scoring instructions along the following lines:

```
 Redress
```
is granted under Rule 64.1(?), the following scoring adjustments
shall be made under Rule 64.2.

  Tim shall be granted redress and receive points for

1st place. Score = RDG 1.0

```
  Hal shall not be disqualified and shall instead
```
receive a scoring penalty and receive one additional point for a
total of two points. Score = SCP 2.0

  All other boats scores shall remain the

same.

Given
the facts I don’t see how a Protest Committee can grant redress under 64.1, but
that is not the scorers problem, that is what the appeals process is in place
to handle!

And
once they make their mind up it will take you 30 seconds to score in SailWave
thanks to Colin…

I
have listed the rules below for reference.

44.3
Scoring Penalty

(a) A boat
takes a Scoring Penalty by displaying a yellow flag at the first reasonable
opportunity after the incident.

62
REDRESS

62.1A
request for redress or a protest committee’s decision to consider redress
shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boat’s score in a race or
series has, through no fault of her own, been made significantly worse by

(a) an
improper action or omission of the race committee, protest committee or
organizing authority, but not by a protest committee decision when the boat was
a party to the hearing;

(b) injury
or physical damage because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of
Part 2 or of a vessel not racing that was required to keep clear;

© giving
help (except to herself or her crew) in compliance with rule 1.1; or

(d) a boat
against which a penalty has been imposed under rule 2 or disciplinary action
has been taken under rule 69.1(b).

64
DECISIONS

64.1
Penalties and Exoneration

(a) When the
protest committee decides that a boat that is a party to a protest
hearing has broken a rule, it shall disqualify her unless some other
penalty applies. A penalty shall be imposed whether or not the applicable rulewas mentioned in the protest.

64.2
Decisions on Redress

When the
protest committee decides that a boat is entitled to redress under rule 62, it
shall make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected, whether
or not they asked for redress. This may be to adjust the scoring (see rule A10
for some examples) or finishing times of boats, to abandon the race, to
let the results stand or to make some other arrangement. When in doubt about
the facts or probable results of any arrangement for the race or series,
especially before abandoning the race, the protest committee shall take
evidence from appropriate sources.

A6
CHANGES IN PLACES AND SCORES OF OTHER BOATS

A6.2 If the protest
committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boat’s score, the scores
of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides
otherwise.

A10
GUIDANCE ON REDRESS

If the
protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boat’s score for
a race, it is advised to consider scoring her

(a) points
equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded
upward), of her points in all the races in the series except the race in
question;

(b) points
equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded
upward), of her points in all the races before the race in question; or

© points
based on the position of the boat in the race at the time of the incident that
justified redress.

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30,
2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave]
Points change for 1st place

This is an interesting twist as now it
has a different Series Winner as a tiebreaker.

If Hal is scored 1^st but
receives a one point penalty, and Tim remains second, who receives the trophy
for R5?

I believe the point of the protest
was for Tim to receive the crucial 1 point instead of 2 for the series. I also
believe the 1^st place was awarded to Tim on the day of the race.

Any thoughts?

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 31 March 2009 04:58
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

I am not sure that the protest committee
can uphold the protest and give redress, but that is a different problem…

The reason for the 1.5 is because
you have two boats tied for first, so they split the points for 1st and 2nd.

If
the protest committee’s decision was to uphold the protest and give redress by
giving Hal a 1 point penalty.

Then shouldn’t Hal be scored 1st plus a
1 point scoring penalty and Tim should remain 2nd.

GYC Dinghy Winter Series 08/09

Greenwich Yacht Club

Results as of 20:57 on March 30, 2009

Overall

Sailed:6, Discards:1, To count:5, Ratings:PY,
Entries:15, Scoring system:Appendix A

Rank

Skipper

R1

R2

R3

R4

R5

R6

Total

Nett

Notes

1st

Rebecca
Scott

1.0

5.0

3.0

(15.0
DNF)

7.0

32.0

17.0

2nd

Tim
Jeffries

2.0

7.0

4.0

2.0

(8.0)

25.0

17.0

3rd

Nick
Fossey

(16.0
DNC)

3.0

1.0

15.0
DNF

1.0

39.0

23.0

4th

Steve
Wilson

3.0

(16.0
DNC)

4.0

2.0

16.0
DNC

3.0

44.0

28.0

5th

Brian
Harrison

(16.0
DNC)

4.0

6.0

16.0
DNC

5.0

2.0

49.0

33.0

6th

Tony
Norwell

5.0

(16.0
DNC)

2.0

16.0
DNC

3.0

16.0
DNC

58.0

42.0

7th

Dan
Groves

7.0

(16.0
DNC)

10.0
OOD

6.0

15.0
DNF

6.0

60.0

44.0

8th

Lucy
Preston

(16.0
DNC)

5.0

16.0
DNC

7.0

16.0
DNC

5.0

65.0

49.0

9th

Toby
Denham

(16.0
DNC)

16.0
DNC

1.0

16.0
DNC

4.0

16.0
DNC

69.0

53.0

10th

Richard
Senior

4.0

(16.0
DNC)

16.0
DNC

5.0

16.0
DNC

73.0

57.0

11th

Simon
Powell

(16.0
DNC)

16.0
DNC

8.0

16.0
DNC

6.0

16.0
DNC

78.0

62.0

12th

Hal
Andrews

(16.0
DNC)

16.0
DNC

2.0
SCP+1

16.0
DNC

82.0

66.0

13th

Mark

(16.0
DNC)

16.0
DNC

4.0

84.0

68.0

14th

Louise
Weight

6.0

(16.0
DNC)

16.0
DNC

86.0

70.0

15th

Frances

(16.0
DNC)

16.0
DNC

15.0
DNS

16.0
DNC

95.0

79.0

Sailwave Scoring Software 2.00
build 3

www.sailwave.com

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:41 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st
place

Thank you for all the great responses, slowly starting to
make a bit of sense of it all now.

Hal finished first in race 5 and Tim finished second. The
race was scored and entered as such. Then shortly after the boats came off the
water the OOD was informed of the protest and a protest committee was called.
The decided to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point
penalty to effectively put him into second place and Tim into first place.

Now as Sailwave user, I merely followed the OOD
instructions updated Hals, score to RDG and entered the points to two. I can
not recall now as this was some time ago, but I guess I must have changed Tim
to 1st place to effectively show the results correctly.

From what is described, I should not have done it in this
way. In my defence I would say it seemed the logical way to do it at the time,
it seemed to work as it was intended. It was only when race 6 was entered that
the confusion came about. Not sure we how such a situation can be avoided for
other novice users in the future.

I have uploaded the results with race 6 as I had it
before (as somebody asked for this)

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries6.blw

I have now changed Hal’s score to 15th for race 5
with RDG and rescored which provided the results as I expected. (Although I was
not aware that 3rd place would become second and not sure this is what the race
committee wanted. But alas’ the final standings stay the same and I will know
what to do next time round.

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 14:53
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

The file shows that you had a tie on the
water for first place between Hal and Tim, is that correct?

Hal was then given redress, scoring code
RDG, for 2nd place.

I don’t see a copy of the file with 6
races scored, do you have that as well?

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st
place

You might be on to something here, but
then I am still confused as to why the score became 1.5 even if it was because
of the redress.

I was also wondering whether it had
anything to do with the new entry (Mark) in race 6 (or perhaps a combination of
this and the Redress)

R5 Tim hailed the protest to Hal for
touching a mark and thought he was heard. Hal was not aware of it and did not
take a penalty turn.

No other source confirmed the mark being
touched. The Protest committee decided to give redress instead of disqualify
Hal.

In Sailwave I changed Hal’s
results to RDG and the points to 2 which produced what was required by
committee. (It did however change Tim’s results to 1)

As we can see, the next race altered
Tim’s results to 1.5

The blw file can be downloaded from:

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.blw

Thanks for the prompt and helpful
response.

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 00:52
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

I think the problem may have started
with the way the Race 5 redress was scored for Hal Andrews. What was the
finding of the protest committee in respect to Hal Andrews score in race
5? Did they decide to adjust the other boats scores? If not Rule A6.2
states that *“If the protest decides to give redress by adjusting a
boat’s score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest
committee decides otherwise.” * Therefore I would have
expected to see the following result for race five:

Rank

Skipper

Place

Nett

Notes

1

Tim
Jeffries

1

1.0

2

Hal
Andrews

RDG

2.0

2

Tony
Norwell

2

2.0

3

Toby
Denham

3

3.0

4

Brian
Harrison

4

4.0

5

Richard
Senior

5

5.0

7

Rebecca
Scott

DNF

13.0

7

Nick
Fossey

DNF

13.0

7

Dan
Groves

DNF

13.0

10

Steve
Wilson

DNC

14.0

10

Lucy
Preston

DNC

14.0

10

Louise
Weight

DNC

14.0

10

Frances

DNC

14.0

Without being able to see the .blw file
it is difficult to see why Sailwave is calculating the results in this manner.

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 3:22 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Using Version 1.5 Build 5

Our series finished today with close competition between the two leaders. I
was very much looking forward to wowing them by producing results as soon as
the race finished. Nothing complicated about it. One design class so just
enter the positions for the last race and rescore for the series results.

Before todays race Tim was in the lead with 16 points. In the last race he
scored 1 point for first place.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.bak.htm

But today he did poorly and strangely so did the runner up. What I do not
understand is why, after re-scoring the series, Tim has received 1.5 points
for the last event. Why would this have changed.

Here is the score after todays race, and race5 has clearly changed the score
for the winner.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.htm

Regards
Terry

ColinJenkins · 6 April 2009 08:41

hi all - not followed this thread in detail yet -
is there stuff i need to do (bugs to fix) or was it resolved…?

cj

Terry wrote:

···

sailwave@yahoogroups.commailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.comOn Behalf Of
Sent:
**To:**sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:

sailwave@yahoogroups.commailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.comOn Behalf Of
Sent:
**To:**sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:sailwave@yahoogroups.commailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.comOn Behalf Of
Sent:
**To:**sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:sailwave@yahoogroups.commailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.comOn Behalf Of
Sent:
**To:**sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:www.avg.com

Philippe_DE_TROY · 6 April 2009 09:58

Colin,

The bug does not appear in 1.92 built 12 and 2.03

This was due to a wrong setting of the ranks and codes…

H finished first and was later dsq, further rdg 2nd whilr T finished 2 but was re-ranked 1.

As SW 1.57 scored ties on ranks, regardless of further DSQ, T was then scored 1.5 as 2 1st were found, other competitors not re-ranked: 3, 4, 5…

With SW 1.95 and subsequent, the scores are correct.

The scorer should have let ranks 1 to H and 2 to T, then T rdg 1 and H pen 2…

Phil

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:41 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

hi all - not followed this thread in detail yet - is there stuff i need to do (bugs to fix) or was it resolved…?
cj

Terry wrote:
Hi Mark,

Thank you very much for your very interesting and complete response. I did take your previous email back to the Dinghy Captain and it was decided to stick to the original score and not make any further changes now as results have already been announced.

I was also informed that the decision was in fact to Penalise Hal in Race 5 by awarding him a time penalty (for not taking the penalty turn) and the time penalty would have been enough to place Hal second. As I was not scoring SW with elapsed times and thought it would be good to reflect an alteration by showing RDG (perhaps as you point out, this should have been SCP)

Anyhow, I read your posting with great interest and feel I now know a lot more about scoring. I will also pass your comments on to those involved.

Thanks again for your time and interest

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 01 April 2009 13:49
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

As the scorer send this one back to the protest committee and request they clarify their scoring instructions.

It seems the result the protest committee wants is 1st Tim, 2nd Hal. The result on the water was 1st Hal, 2nd Tim. You need to know which rules they are using to get to the desired result so that the results can have the correct scoring codes.

Request clarification of the following; what are the facts found, what rules apply, which boats scores should be adjusted, and which rule is being used to adjust each score. Specifically how did the protest committee find in respect to the following rules?

  Rule 64.1(a) requires that if Hal was found to have broken a rule he should be disqualified, unless some other penalty applies. I don't see any other penalty applying?

  Under which part of Rule 62 are they granting redress to Hal? If anyone the redress should be to Tim? Although I don't see how they can give redress to anyone given the described situation.

  Under 64.2 they can "make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected", however there are more boats affected than just Hal and Tim. What about Rebecca, who as a result of the protest and the granted redress will no longer win the Winter Series, was this considered?

If they want the result that you have expressed, then they should have issued scoring instructions along the following lines:

  Redress is granted under Rule 64.1(?), the following scoring adjustments shall be made under Rule 64.2.

    Tim shall be granted redress and receive points for 1st place. Score = RDG 1.0

    Hal shall not be disqualified and shall instead receive a scoring penalty and receive one additional point for a total of two points. Score = SCP 2.0

    All other boats scores shall remain the same.

Given the facts I don't see how a Protest Committee can grant redress under 64.1, but that is not the scorers problem, that is what the appeals process is in place to handle!

And once they make their mind up it will take you 30 seconds to score in SailWave thanks to Colin...

I have listed the rules below for reference.

** 44.3 Scoring Penalty**

(a) A boat takes a Scoring Penalty by displaying a yellow flag at the first reasonable opportunity after the incident.

** 62 REDRESS**

** 62.1** A request for redress or a protest committees decision to consider redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boats score in a race or series has, through no fault of her own, been made significantly worse by

(a) an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest committee or organizing authority, but not by a protest committee decision when the boat was a *party* to the hearing;

(b) injury or physical damage because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2 or of a vessel not *racing*     that was required to keep clear;

(c) giving help (except to herself or her crew) in compliance with rule 1.1; or

(d) a boat against which a penalty has been imposed under rule 2 or disciplinary action has been taken under rule 69.1(b).

** 64 DECISIONS**

** 64.1 Penalties and Exoneration**

(a) When the protest committee decides that a boat that is a *party*     to a protest hearing has broken a *rule*    , it shall disqualify her unless some other penalty applies. A penalty shall be imposed whether or not the applicable *rule*     was mentioned in the *protest*.

** 64.2 Decisions on Redress**

When the protest committee decides that a boat is entitled to redress under rule 62, it shall make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected, whether or not they asked for redress. This may be to adjust the scoring (see rule A10 for some examples) or finishing times of boats, to *    abandon*     the race, to let the results stand or to make some other arrangement. When in doubt about the facts or probable results of any arrangement for the race or series, especially before *abandoning*     the race, the protest committee shall take evidence from appropriate sources.

** A6 CHANGES IN PLACES AND SCORES OF OTHER BOATS**

** A6.2** If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boats score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides otherwise.

** A10 GUIDANCE ON REDRESS**

If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boats score for a race, it is advised to consider scoring her

(a) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races in the series except the race in question;

(b) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races before the race in question; or

(c) points based on the position of the boat in the race at the time of the incident that justified redress.

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

This is an interesting twist as now it has a different Series Winner as a tiebreaker.

If Hal is scored 1<sup>st</sup> but receives a one point penalty, and Tim remains second, who receives the trophy for R5?

 I believe the point of the protest was for Tim to receive the crucial 1 point instead of 2 for the series. I also believe the 1<sup>st</sup> place was awarded to Tim on the day of the race.

Any thoughts?

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 31 March 2009 04:58
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

I am not sure that the protest committee can uphold the protest and give redress, but that is a different problem...

The reason for the 1.5 is because you have two boats tied for first, so they split the points for 1st and 2nd.

If the protest committee's decision was to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point penalty.

Then shouldn't Hal be scored 1st plus a 1 point scoring penalty and Tim should remain 2nd.

GYC Dinghy Winter Series 08/09

Greenwich Yacht Club

Results as of 20:57 on March 30, 2009

Overall

      Sailed:6, Discards:1, To count:5, Ratings:PY, Entries:15, Scoring system:Appendix A

Rank

Skipper

R1

R2

R3

R4

R5

R6

Total

Nett

Notes

1st

Rebecca Scott

1.0

5.0

3.0

(15.0 DNF)

7.0

32.0

17.0

2nd

Tim Jeffries

2.0

7.0

4.0

2.0

(8.0)

25.0

17.0

3rd

Nick Fossey

(16.0 DNC)

3.0

1.0

15.0 DNF

1.0

39.0

23.0

4th

Steve Wilson

3.0

(16.0 DNC)

4.0

2.0

16.0 DNC

3.0

44.0

28.0

5th

Brian Harrison

(16.0 DNC)

4.0

6.0

16.0 DNC

5.0

2.0

49.0

33.0

6th

Tony Norwell

5.0

(16.0 DNC)

2.0

16.0 DNC

3.0

16.0 DNC

58.0

42.0

7th

Dan Groves

7.0

(16.0 DNC)

10.0 OOD

6.0

15.0 DNF

6.0

60.0

44.0

8th

Lucy Preston

(16.0 DNC)

5.0

16.0 DNC

7.0

16.0 DNC

5.0

65.0

49.0

9th

Toby Denham

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

1.0

16.0 DNC

4.0

16.0 DNC

69.0

53.0

10th

Richard Senior

4.0

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

5.0

16.0 DNC

73.0

57.0

11th

Simon Powell

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

8.0

16.0 DNC

6.0

16.0 DNC

78.0

62.0

12th

Hal Andrews

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

2.0 SCP+1

16.0 DNC

82.0

66.0

13th

Mark

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

4.0

84.0

68.0

14th

Louise Weight

6.0

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

86.0

70.0

15th

Frances

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

15.0 DNS

16.0 DNC

95.0

79.0

Sailwave Scoring Software 2.00 build 3

www.sailwave.com

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:41 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Thank you for all the great responses, slowly starting to make a bit of sense of it all now.

Hal finished first in race 5 and Tim finished second. The race was scored and entered as such. Then shortly after the boats came off the water the OOD was informed of the protest and a protest committee was called. The decided to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point penalty to effectively put him into second place and Tim into first place.

Now as Sailwave user, I merely followed the OOD instructions updated Hals, score to RDG and entered the points to two. I can not recall now as this was some time ago, but I guess I must have changed Tim to 1st place to effectively show the results correctly.

From what is described, I should not have done it in this way. In my defence I would say it seemed the logical way to do it at the time, it seemed to work as it was intended. It was only when race 6 was entered that the confusion came about. Not sure we how such a situation can be avoided for other novice users in the future.

I have uploaded the results with race 6 as I had it before (as somebody asked for this)

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries6.blw

I have now changed Hals score to 15th for race 5 with RDG and rescored which provided the results as I expected. (Although I was not aware that 3rd place would become second and not sure this is what the race committee wanted. But alas' the final standings stay the same and I will know what to do next time round. :)

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 14:53
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

The file shows that you had a tie on the water for first place between Hal and Tim, is that correct?

Hal was then given redress, scoring code RDG, for 2nd place.

I don't see a copy of the file with 6 races scored, do you have that as well?

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

You might be on to something here, but then I am still confused as to why the score became 1.5 even if it was because of the redress.

I was also wondering whether it had anything to do with the new entry (Mark) in race 6 (or perhaps a combination of this and the Redress)

R5 Tim hailed the protest to Hal for touching a mark and thought he was heard. Hal was not aware of it and did not take a penalty turn.

No other source confirmed the mark being touched. The Protest committee decided to give redress instead of disqualify Hal.

In Sailwave I changed Hals results to RDG and the points to 2 which produced what was required by committee. (It did however change Tims results to 1)

As we can see, the next race altered Tims results to 1.5

The blw file can be downloaded from:

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.blw

Thanks for the prompt and helpful response.

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 00:52
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

I think the problem may have started with the way the Race 5 redress was scored for Hal Andrews. What was the finding of the protest committee in respect to Hal Andrews score in race 5? Did they decide to adjust the other boats scores? If not Rule A6.2 states that *    "If the protest decides to give redress by adjusting a boat's score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides otherwise." *     Therefore I would have expected to see the following result for race five:

Rank

Skipper

Place

Nett

Notes

1

Tim Jeffries

1

1.0

2

Hal Andrews

RDG

2.0

2

Tony Norwell

2

2.0

3

Toby Denham

3

3.0

4

Brian Harrison

4

4.0

5

Richard Senior

5

5.0

7

Rebecca Scott

DNF

13.0

7

Nick Fossey

DNF

13.0

7

Dan Groves

DNF

13.0

10

Steve Wilson

DNC

14.0

10

Lucy Preston

DNC

14.0

10

Louise Weight

DNC

14.0

10

Frances

DNC

14.0

Without being able to see the .blw file it is difficult to see why Sailwave is calculating the results in this manner.

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 3:22 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Using Version 1.5 Build 5

Our series finished today with close competition between the two leaders. I
was very much looking forward to wowing them by producing results as soon as
the race finished. Nothing complicated about it. One design class so just
enter the positions for the last race and rescore for the series results.

Before todays race Tim was in the lead with 16 points. In the last race he
scored 1 point for first place.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.bak.htm

But today he did poorly and strangely so did the runner up. What I do not
understand is why, after re-scoring the series, Tim has received 1.5 points

for the last event. Why would this have changed.

Here is the score after todays race, and race5 has clearly changed the score
for the winner.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.htm

Regards
Terry



---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - [www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com)
Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.35/2034 - Release Date: 04/01/09 06:06:00

ColinJenkins · 7 April 2009 08:27

Thanks Phil.

One thing I need to do is add fields for redress/penalty codes in
addition to the result code/place. i.e. allowing DNF+Redress,
currently it assumes that if no place is in the result but it’s a bit
iffy…

CJ

Philippe DE TROY wrote:

···

sailwave@yahoogroups.commailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.comOn Behalf Of
Sent:
**To:**sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:

sailwave@yahoogroups.commailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.comOn Behalf Of
Sent:
**To:**sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:sailwave@yahoogroups.commailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.comOn Behalf Of
Sent:
**To:**sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:sailwave@yahoogroups.commailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.comOn Behalf Of
Sent:
**To:**sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:www.avg.com www.avg.com

Harvey_John · 7 April 2009 08:50

I’m not sure (but i could be missing somethin)

With his R6 added it scores 1.5 for 1st place in R5.

I just had a quick play again and this seems to be because an extra person gets added to the results in R6 and somehow that alters the scoring for R5.

Why should adding the 15th competitor in race 6 change the points scored in R5?

This is in Sw 2 B3. Link to series with 6 races

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries6.blw

John

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe DE TROY
Sent: 06 April 2009 10:59
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Colin,

The bug does not appear in 1.92 built 12 and 2.03

This was due to a wrong setting of the ranks and codes…

H finished first and was later dsq, further rdg 2nd whilr T finished 2 but was re-ranked 1.

As SW 1.57 scored ties on ranks, regardless of further DSQ, T was then scored 1.5 as 2 1st were found, other competitors not re-ranked: 3, 4, 5…

With SW 1.95 and subsequent, the scores are correct.

The scorer should have let ranks 1 to H and 2 to T, then T rdg 1 and H pen 2…

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:41 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

hi all - not followed this thread in detail yet - is there stuff i need to do (bugs to fix) or was it resolved...?

cj

Terry wrote:

  Hi Mark,

  Thank you very much for your very interesting and complete response. I did take your previous email back to the Dinghy Captain and it was decided to stick to the original score and not make any further changes now as results have already been announced.

  I was also informed that the decision was in fact to Penalise Hal in Race 5 by awarding him a time penalty (for not taking the penalty turn) and the time penalty would have been enough to place Hal second. As I was not scoring SW with elapsed times and thought it would be good to reflect an alteration by showing RDG (perhaps as you point out, this should have been SCP)

  Anyhow, I read your posting with great interest and feel I now know a lot more about scoring. I will also pass your comments on to those involved.

  Thanks again for your time and interest

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 01 April 2009 13:49
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

  As the scorer send this one back to the protest committee and request they clarify their scoring instructions.

  It seems the result the protest committee wants is 1st Tim, 2nd Hal. The result on the water was 1st Hal, 2nd Tim. You need to know which rules they are using to get to the desired result so that the results can have the correct scoring codes.

  Request clarification of the following; what are the facts found, what rules apply, which boats scores should be adjusted, and which rule is being used to adjust each score. Specifically how did the protest committee find in respect to the following rules?

    Rule 64.1(a) requires that if Hal was found to have broken a rule he should be disqualified, unless some other penalty applies. I don't see any other penalty applying?

    Under which part of Rule 62 are they granting redress to Hal? If anyone the redress should be to Tim? Although I don't see how they can give redress to anyone given the described situation.

    Under 64.2 they can "make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected", however there are more boats affected than just Hal and Tim. What about Rebecca, who as a result of the protest and the granted redress will no longer win the Winter Series, was this considered?

  If they want the result that you have expressed, then they should have issued scoring instructions along the following lines:

    Redress is granted under Rule 64.1(?), the following scoring adjustments shall be made under Rule 64.2.

      Tim shall be granted redress and receive points for 1st place. Score = RDG 1.0

      Hal shall not be disqualified and shall instead receive a scoring penalty and receive one additional point for a total of two points. Score = SCP 2.0

      All other boats scores shall remain the same.

  Given the facts I don't see how a Protest Committee can grant redress under 64.1, but that is not the scorers problem, that is what the appeals process is in place to handle!

  And once they make their mind up it will take you 30 seconds to score in SailWave thanks to Colin...

  I have listed the rules below for reference.

** 44.3 Scoring Penalty**

  (a) A boat takes a Scoring Penalty by displaying a yellow flag at the first reasonable opportunity after the incident.

** 62 REDRESS**

** 62.1** A request for redress or a protest committee’s decision to consider redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boat’s score in a race or series has, through no fault of her own, been made significantly worse by

  (a) an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest committee or organizing authority, but not by a protest committee decision when the boat was a *party* to the hearing;

  (b) injury or physical damage because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2 or of a vessel not *racing*       that was required to keep clear;

  (c) giving help (except to herself or her crew) in compliance with rule 1.1; or

  (d) a boat against which a penalty has been imposed under rule 2 or disciplinary action has been taken under rule 69.1(b).

** 64 DECISIONS**

** 64.1 Penalties and Exoneration**

  (a) When the protest committee decides that a boat that is a *party*       to a protest hearing has broken a *rule*      , it shall disqualify her unless some other penalty applies. A penalty shall be imposed whether or not the applicable *rule*       was mentioned in the *protest*.

** 64.2 Decisions on Redress**

  When the protest committee decides that a boat is entitled to redress under rule 62, it shall make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected, whether or not they asked for redress. This may be to adjust the scoring (see rule A10 for some examples) or finishing times of boats, to *abandon*       the race, to let the results stand or to make some other arrangement. When in doubt about the facts or probable results of any arrangement for the race or series, especially before *      abandoning*       the race, the protest committee shall take evidence from appropriate sources.

** A6 CHANGES IN PLACES AND SCORES OF OTHER BOATS**

** A6.2** If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boat’s score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides otherwise.

** A10 GUIDANCE ON REDRESS**

  If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boat’s score for a race, it is advised to consider scoring her

  (a) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races in the series except the race in question;

  (b) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races before the race in question; or

  (c) points based on the position of the boat in the race at the time of the incident that justified redress.

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

  This is an interesting twist as now it has a different Series Winner as a tiebreaker.

  If Hal is scored 1<sup>st</sup> but receives a one point penalty, and Tim remains second, who receives the trophy for R5?

   I believe the point of the protest was for Tim to receive the crucial 1 point instead of 2 for the series. I also believe the 1<sup>st</sup> place was awarded to Tim on the day of the race.

  Any thoughts?

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 31 March 2009 04:58
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

  I am not sure that the protest committee can uphold the protest and give redress, but that is a different problem...

  The reason for the 1.5 is because you have two boats tied for first, so they split the points for 1st and 2nd.

  If the protest committee's decision was to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point penalty.

  Then shouldn't Hal be scored 1st plus a 1 point scoring penalty and Tim should remain 2nd.

GYC Dinghy Winter Series 08/09

Greenwich Yacht Club

Results as of 20:57 on March 30, 2009

Overall

        Sailed:6, Discards:1, To count:5, Ratings:PY, Entries:15, Scoring system:Appendix A

Rank

Skipper

R1

R2

R3

R4

R5

R6

Total

Nett

Notes

1st

Rebecca Scott

1.0

5.0

3.0

(15.0 DNF)

7.0

32.0

17.0

2nd

Tim Jeffries

2.0

7.0

4.0

2.0

(8.0)

25.0

17.0

3rd

Nick Fossey

(16.0 DNC)

3.0

1.0

15.0 DNF

1.0

39.0

23.0

4th

Steve Wilson

3.0

(16.0 DNC)

4.0

2.0

16.0 DNC

3.0

44.0

28.0

5th

Brian Harrison

(16.0 DNC)

4.0

6.0

16.0 DNC

5.0

2.0

49.0

33.0

6th

Tony Norwell

5.0

(16.0 DNC)

2.0

16.0 DNC

3.0

16.0 DNC

58.0

42.0

7th

Dan Groves

7.0

(16.0 DNC)

10.0 OOD

6.0

15.0 DNF

6.0

60.0

44.0

8th

Lucy Preston

(16.0 DNC)

5.0

16.0 DNC

7.0

16.0 DNC

5.0

65.0

49.0

9th

Toby Denham

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

1.0

16.0 DNC

4.0

16.0 DNC

69.0

53.0

10th

Richard Senior

4.0

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

5.0

16.0 DNC

73.0

57.0

11th

Simon Powell

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

8.0

16.0 DNC

6.0

16.0 DNC

78.0

62.0

12th

Hal Andrews

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

2.0 SCP+1

16.0 DNC

82.0

66.0

13th

Mark

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

4.0

84.0

68.0

14th

Louise Weight

6.0

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

86.0

70.0

15th

Frances

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

15.0 DNS

16.0 DNC

95.0

79.0

  Sailwave Scoring Software 2.00 build 3

www.sailwave.com

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:41 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

  Thank you for all the great responses, slowly starting to make a bit of sense of it all now.

  Hal finished first in race 5 and Tim finished second. The race was scored and entered as such. Then shortly after the boats came off the water the OOD was informed of the protest and a protest committee was called. The decided to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point penalty to effectively put him into second place and Tim into first place.

  Now as Sailwave user, I merely followed the OOD instructions updated Hals, score to RDG and entered the points to two. I can not recall now as this was some time ago, but I guess I must have changed Tim to 1st place to effectively show the results correctly.

  From what is described, I should not have done it in this way. In my defence I would say it seemed the logical way to do it at the time, it seemed to work as it was intended. It was only when race 6 was entered that the confusion came about. Not sure we how such a situation can be avoided for other novice users in the future.

  I have uploaded the results with race 6 as I had it before (as somebody asked for this)

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries6.blw

  I have now changed Hal’s score to 15th for race 5 with RDG and rescored which provided the results as I expected. (Although I was not aware that 3rd place would become second and not sure this is what the race committee wanted. But alas' the final standings stay the same and I will know what to do next time round. :)

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 14:53
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

  The file shows that you had a tie on the water for first place between Hal and Tim, is that correct?

  Hal was then given redress, scoring code RDG, for 2nd place.

  I don't see a copy of the file with 6 races scored, do you have that as well?

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

  You might be on to something here, but then I am still confused as to why the score became 1.5 even if it was because of the redress.

  I was also wondering whether it had anything to do with the new entry (Mark) in race 6 (or perhaps a combination of this and the Redress)

  R5 Tim hailed the protest to Hal for touching a mark and thought he was heard. Hal was not aware of it and did not take a penalty turn.

  No other source confirmed the mark being touched. The Protest committee decided to give redress instead of disqualify Hal.

  In Sailwave I changed Hal’s results to RDG and the points to 2 which produced what was required by committee. (It did however change Tim’s results to 1)

  As we can see, the next race altered Tim’s results to 1.5

  The blw file can be downloaded from:

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.blw

  Thanks for the prompt and helpful response.

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 00:52
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

  I think the problem may have started with the way the Race 5 redress was scored for Hal Andrews. What was the finding of the protest committee in respect to Hal Andrews score in race 5? Did they decide to adjust the other boats scores? If not Rule A6.2 states that *      "If the protest decides to give redress by adjusting a boat's score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides otherwise." *       Therefore I would have expected to see the following result for race five:

Rank

Skipper

Place

Nett

Notes

1

Tim Jeffries

1

1.0

2

Hal Andrews

RDG

2.0

2

Tony Norwell

2

2.0

3

Toby Denham

3

3.0

4

Brian Harrison

4

4.0

5

Richard Senior

5

5.0

7

Rebecca Scott

DNF

13.0

7

Nick Fossey

DNF

13.0

7

Dan Groves

DNF

13.0

10

Steve Wilson

DNC

14.0

10

Lucy Preston

DNC

14.0

10

Louise Weight

DNC

14.0

10

Frances

DNC

14.0

  Without being able to see the .blw file it is difficult to see why Sailwave is calculating the results in this manner.

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 3:22 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Using Version 1.5 Build 5

  Our series finished today with close competition between the two leaders. I
  was very much looking forward to wowing them by producing results as soon as
  the race finished. Nothing complicated about it. One design class so just
  enter the positions for the last race and rescore for the series results.

  Before todays race Tim was in the lead with 16 points. In the last race he
  scored 1 point for first place.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.bak.htm

  But today he did poorly and strangely so did the runner up. What I do not
  understand is why, after re-scoring the series, Tim has received 1.5 points

for the last event. Why would this have changed.

  Here is the score after todays race, and race5 has clearly changed the score

for the winner.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.htm

Regards
Terry



---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - [www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com)
Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.35/2034 - Release Date: 04/01/09 06:06:00

Philippe_DE_TROY · 7 April 2009 09:00

Adding another competitor in R6 affects the scores for codes, i.e. you score DNF as n and DNC as n+1, so after R5, DNF and associated codes are scored 14 and DNC and associated are scored as 15, but after R6, all previous races are also rescored and DNF becomes 15, DNC becomes 16. As many competitors have more codes than discardable, all, except some at the top of the ranking, are affected and this is not a bug…

Perhaps you didn’t notice the 1.5, it was clearly induced by the re-scoring of Tim as 1 without setting this as a RDG

Phil

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Harvey, John

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:50 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

I’m not sure (but i could be missing somethin)

With his R6 added it scores 1.5 for 1st place in R5.

I just had a quick play again and this seems to be because an extra person gets added to the results in R6 and somehow that alters the scoring for R5.

Why should adding the 15th competitor in race 6 change the points scored in R5?

This is in Sw 2 B3. Link to series with 6 races

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries6.blw

John

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe DE TROY
Sent: 06 April 2009 10:59
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Colin,

The bug does not appear in 1.92 built 12 and 2.03

This was due to a wrong setting of the ranks and codes...

H finished first and was later dsq, further rdg 2nd whilr T finished 2 but was re-ranked 1.

As SW 1.57 scored ties on ranks, regardless of further DSQ, T was then scored 1.5 as 2 1st were found, other competitors not re-ranked: 3, 4, 5...

With SW 1.95 and subsequent,      the scores are correct.

The scorer should have let ranks 1 to H and 2 to T, then T rdg 1 and H pen 2...

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:41 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

  hi all - not followed this thread in detail yet - is there stuff i need to do (bugs to fix) or was it resolved...?

cj

Terry wrote:

    Hi Mark,

    Thank you very much for your very interesting and complete response. I did take your previous email back to the Dinghy Captain and it was decided to stick to the original score and not make any further changes now as results have already been announced.

    I was also informed that the decision was in fact to Penalise Hal in Race 5 by awarding him a time penalty (for not taking the penalty turn) and the time penalty would have been enough to place Hal second. As I was not scoring SW with elapsed times and thought it would be good to reflect an alteration by showing RDG (perhaps as you point out, this should have been SCP)

    Anyhow, I read your posting with great interest and feel I now know a lot more about scoring. I will also pass your comments on to those involved.

    Thanks again for your time and interest

Regards

Terry

From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 01 April 2009 13:49
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

    As the scorer send this one back to the protest committee and request they clarify their scoring instructions.

    It seems the result the protest committee wants is 1st Tim, 2nd Hal. The result on the water was 1st Hal, 2nd Tim. You need to know which rules they are using to get to the desired result so that the results can have the correct scoring codes.

    Request clarification of the following; what are the facts found, what rules apply, which boats scores should be adjusted, and which rule is being used to adjust each score. Specifically how did the protest committee find in respect to the following rules?

      Rule 64.1(a) requires that if Hal was found to have broken a rule he should be disqualified, unless some other penalty applies. I don't see any other penalty applying?

      Under which part of Rule 62 are they granting redress to Hal? If anyone the redress should be to Tim? Although I don't see how they can give redress to anyone given the described situation.

      Under 64.2 they can "make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected", however there are more boats affected than just Hal and Tim. What about Rebecca, who as a result of the protest and the granted redress will no longer win the Winter Series, was this considered?

    If they want the result that you have expressed, then they should have issued scoring instructions along the following lines:

      Redress is granted under Rule 64.1(?), the following scoring adjustments shall be made under Rule 64.2.

        Tim shall be granted redress and receive points for 1st place. Score = RDG 1.0

        Hal shall not be disqualified and shall instead receive a scoring penalty and receive one additional point for a total of two points. Score = SCP 2.0

        All other boats scores shall remain the same.

    Given the facts I don't see how a Protest Committee can grant redress under 64.1, but that is not the scorers problem, that is what the appeals process is in place to handle!

    And once they make their mind up it will take you 30 seconds to score in SailWave thanks to Colin...

    I have listed the rules below for reference.

** 44.3 Scoring Penalty**

    (a) A boat takes a Scoring Penalty by displaying a yellow flag at the first reasonable opportunity after the incident.

** 62 REDRESS**

** 62.1** A request for redress or a protest committees decision to consider redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boats score in a race or series has, through no fault of her own, been made significantly worse by

    (a) an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest committee or organizing authority, but not by a protest committee decision when the boat was a *party* to the hearing;

    (b) injury or physical damage because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2 or of a vessel not *racing*         that was required to keep clear;

    (c) giving help (except to herself or her crew) in compliance with rule 1.1; or

    (d) a boat against which a penalty has been imposed under rule 2 or disciplinary action has been taken under rule 69.1(b).

** 64 DECISIONS**

** 64.1 Penalties and Exoneration**

    (a) When the protest committee decides that a boat that is a *party*         to a protest hearing has broken a *rule*        , it shall disqualify her unless some other penalty applies. A penalty shall be imposed whether or not the applicable *rule*         was mentioned in the *protest*.

** 64.2 Decisions on Redress**

    When the protest committee decides that a boat is entitled to redress under rule 62, it shall make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected, whether or not they asked for redress. This may be to adjust the scoring (see rule A10 for some examples) or finishing times of boats, to *abandon*         the race, to let the results stand or to make some other arrangement. When in doubt about the facts or probable results of any arrangement for the race or series, especially before *abandoning*         the race, the protest committee shall take evidence from appropriate sources.

** A6 CHANGES IN PLACES AND SCORES OF OTHER BOATS**

** A6.2** If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boats score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides otherwise.

** A10 GUIDANCE ON REDRESS**

    If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boats score for a race, it is advised to consider scoring her

    (a) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races in the series except the race in question;

    (b) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races before the race in question; or

    (c) points based on the position of the boat in the race at the time of the incident that justified redress.

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

    This is an interesting twist as now it has a different Series Winner as a tiebreaker.

    If Hal is scored 1<sup>st</sup> but receives a one point penalty, and Tim remains second, who receives the trophy for R5?

     I believe the point of the protest was for Tim to receive the crucial 1 point instead of 2 for the series. I also believe the 1<sup>st</sup> place was awarded to Tim on the day of the race.

    Any thoughts?

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 31 March 2009 04:58
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

    I am not sure that the protest committee can uphold the protest and give redress, but that is a different problem...

    The reason for the 1.5 is because you have two boats tied for first, so they split the points for 1st and 2nd.

    If the protest committee's decision was to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point penalty.

    Then shouldn't Hal be scored 1st plus a 1 point scoring penalty and Tim should remain 2nd.

GYC Dinghy Winter Series 08/09

Greenwich Yacht Club

Results as of 20:57 on March 30, 2009

Overall

          Sailed:6, Discards:1, To count:5, Ratings:PY, Entries:15, Scoring system:Appendix A

Rank

Skipper

R1

R2

R3

R4

R5

R6

Total

Nett

Notes

1st

Rebecca Scott

1.0

5.0

3.0

(15.0 DNF)

7.0

32.0

17.0

2nd

Tim Jeffries

2.0

7.0

4.0

2.0

(8.0)

25.0

17.0

3rd

Nick Fossey

(16.0 DNC)

3.0

1.0

15.0 DNF

1.0

39.0

23.0

4th

Steve Wilson

3.0

(16.0 DNC)

4.0

2.0

16.0 DNC

3.0

44.0

28.0

5th

Brian Harrison

(16.0 DNC)

4.0

6.0

16.0 DNC

5.0

2.0

49.0

33.0

6th

Tony Norwell

5.0

(16.0 DNC)

2.0

16.0 DNC

3.0

16.0 DNC

58.0

42.0

7th

Dan Groves

7.0

(16.0 DNC)

10.0 OOD

6.0

15.0 DNF

6.0

60.0

44.0

8th

Lucy Preston

(16.0 DNC)

5.0

16.0 DNC

7.0

16.0 DNC

5.0

65.0

49.0

9th

Toby Denham

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

1.0

16.0 DNC

4.0

16.0 DNC

69.0

53.0

10th

Richard Senior

4.0

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

5.0

16.0 DNC

73.0

57.0

11th

Simon Powell

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

8.0

16.0 DNC

6.0

16.0 DNC

78.0

62.0

12th

Hal Andrews

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

2.0 SCP+1

16.0 DNC

82.0

66.0

13th

Mark

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

4.0

84.0

68.0

14th

Louise Weight

6.0

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

86.0

70.0

15th

Frances

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

15.0 DNS

16.0 DNC

95.0

79.0

    Sailwave Scoring Software 2.00 build 3

www.sailwave.com

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:41 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

    Thank you for all the great responses, slowly starting to make a bit of sense of it all now.

    Hal finished first in race 5 and Tim finished second. The race was scored and entered as such. Then shortly after the boats came off the water the OOD was informed of the protest and a protest committee was called. The decided to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point penalty to effectively put him into second place and Tim into first place.

    Now as Sailwave user, I merely followed the OOD instructions updated Hals, score to RDG and entered the points to two. I can not recall now as this was some time ago, but I guess I must have changed Tim to 1st place to effectively show the results correctly.

    From what is described, I should not have done it in this way. In my defence I would say it seemed the logical way to do it at the time, it seemed to work as it was intended. It was only when race 6 was entered that the confusion came about. Not sure we how such a situation can be avoided for other novice users in the future.

    I have uploaded the results with race 6 as I had it before (as somebody asked for this)

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries6.blw

    I have now changed Hals score to 15th for race 5 with RDG and rescored which provided the results as I expected. (Although I was not aware that 3rd place would become second and not sure this is what the race committee wanted. But alas' the final standings stay the same and I will know what to do next time round. :)

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 14:53
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

    The file shows that you had a tie on the water for first place between Hal and Tim, is that correct?

    Hal was then given redress, scoring code RDG, for 2nd place.

    I don't see a copy of the file with 6 races scored, do you have that as well?

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

    You might be on to something here, but then I am still confused as to why the score became 1.5 even if it was because of the redress.

    I was also wondering whether it had anything to do with the new entry (Mark) in race 6 (or perhaps a combination of this and the Redress)

    R5 Tim hailed the protest to Hal for touching a mark and thought he was heard. Hal was not aware of it and did not take a penalty turn.

    No other source confirmed the mark being touched. The Protest committee decided to give redress instead of disqualify Hal.

    In Sailwave I changed Hals results to RDG and the points to 2 which produced what was required by committee. (It did however change Tims results to 1)

    As we can see, the next race altered Tims results to 1.5

    The blw file can be downloaded from:

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.blw

    Thanks for the prompt and helpful response.

Regards

    Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 00:52
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

    I think the problem may have started with the way the Race 5 redress was scored for Hal Andrews. What was the finding of the protest committee in respect to Hal Andrews score in race 5? Did they decide to adjust the other boats scores? If not Rule A6.2 states that *        "If the protest decides to give redress by adjusting a boat's score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides otherwise." *         Therefore I would have expected to see the following result for race five:

Rank

Skipper

Place

Nett

Notes

1

Tim Jeffries

1

1.0

2

Hal Andrews

RDG

2.0

2

Tony Norwell

2

2.0

3

Toby Denham

3

3.0

4

Brian Harrison

4

4.0

5

Richard Senior

5

5.0

7

Rebecca Scott

DNF

13.0

7

Nick Fossey

DNF

13.0

7

Dan Groves

DNF

13.0

10

Steve Wilson

DNC

14.0

10

Lucy Preston

DNC

14.0

10

Louise Weight

DNC

14.0

10

Frances

DNC

14.0

    Without being able to see the .blw file it is difficult to see why Sailwave is calculating the results in this manner.

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 3:22 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Using Version 1.5 Build 5

    Our series finished today with close competition between the two leaders. I
    was very much looking forward to wowing them by producing results as soon as
    the race finished. Nothing complicated about it. One design class so just
    enter the positions for the last race and rescore for the series results.

    Before todays race Tim was in the lead with 16 points. In the last race he

scored 1 point for first place.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.bak.htm

    But today he did poorly and strangely so did the runner up. What I do not
    understand is why, after re-scoring the series, Tim has received 1.5 points
    for the last event. Why would this have changed.

    Here is the score after todays race, and race5 has clearly changed the score

for the winner.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.htm

Regards
Terry



---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - [www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com)
Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.35/2034 - Release Date: 04/01/09 06:06:00

Harvey_John · 7 April 2009 09:26

No I still don’t understand

I understand of course that DNC changes but why does that affect the scoring of 1,2 in R5?

If you take the series with R6 added then Tim is scored 1.5 points.

If you delete Mark who was a new sailer in R6 then Tim is scored as 1 point.

I dont understand why adding that 1 sailor changes the points for Tim.

John

···

From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe DE TROY
Sent: 07 April 2009 10:01
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Adding another competitor in R6 affects the scores for codes, i.e. you score DNF as n and DNC as n+1, so after R5, DNF and associated codes are scored 14 and DNC and associated are scored as 15, but after R6, all previous races are also rescored and DNF becomes 15, DNC becomes 16. As many competitors have more codes than discardable, all, except some at the top of the ranking, are affected and this is not a bug…

Perhaps you didn’t notice the 1.5, it was clearly induced by the re-scoring of Tim as 1 without setting this as a RDG

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From:
Harvey, John

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:50 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

I'm not sure (but i could be missing somethin)

With his R6 added it scores 1.5 for 1st place in R5.

I just had a quick play again and this seems to be because an extra person gets added to the results in R6 and somehow that alters the scoring for R5.

Why should adding the 15th competitor in race 6 change the points scored in R5?

This is in Sw 2 B3. Link to series with 6 races

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries6.blw

John

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe DE TROY
Sent: 06 April 2009 10:59
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Colin,

  The bug does not appear in 1.92 built 12 and 2.03

  This was due to a wrong setting of the ranks and codes...

  H finished first and was later dsq, further rdg 2nd whilr T finished 2 but was re-ranked 1.

  As SW 1.57 scored ties on ranks, regardless of further DSQ, T was then scored 1.5 as 2 1st were found, other competitors not re-ranked: 3, 4, 5...

  With SW 1.95 and subsequent,        the scores are correct.

  The scorer should have let ranks 1 to H and 2 to T, then T rdg 1 and H pen 2...

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:41 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

    hi all - not followed this thread in detail yet - is there stuff i need to do (bugs to fix) or was it resolved...?

cj

Terry wrote:

      Hi Mark,

      Thank you very much for your very interesting and complete response. I did take your previous email back to the Dinghy Captain and it was decided to stick to the original score and not make any further changes now as results have already been announced.

      I was also informed that the decision was in fact to Penalise Hal in Race 5 by awarding him a time penalty (for not taking the penalty turn) and the time penalty would have been enough to place Hal second. As I was not scoring SW with elapsed times and thought it would be good to reflect an alteration by showing RDG (perhaps as you point out, this should have been SCP)

      Anyhow, I read your posting with great interest and feel I now know a lot more about scoring. I will also pass your comments on to those involved.

      Thanks again for your time and interest

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 01 April 2009 13:49
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

      As the scorer send this one back to the protest committee and request they clarify their scoring instructions.

      It seems the result the protest committee wants is 1st Tim, 2nd Hal. The result on the water was 1st Hal, 2nd Tim. You need to know which rules they are using to get to the desired result so that the results can have the correct scoring codes.

      Request clarification of the following; what are the facts found, what rules apply, which boats scores should be adjusted, and which rule is being used to adjust each score. Specifically how did the protest committee find in respect to the following rules?

        Rule 64.1(a) requires that if Hal was found to have broken a rule he should be disqualified, unless some other penalty applies. I don't see any other penalty applying?

        Under which part of Rule 62 are they granting redress to Hal? If anyone the redress should be to Tim? Although I don't see how they can give redress to anyone given the described situation.

        Under 64.2 they can "make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected", however there are more boats affected than just Hal and Tim. What about Rebecca, who as a result of the protest and the granted redress will no longer win the Winter Series, was this considered?

      If they want the result that you have expressed, then they should have issued scoring instructions along the following lines:

        Redress is granted under Rule 64.1(?), the following scoring adjustments shall be made under Rule 64.2.

          Tim shall be granted redress and receive points for 1st place. Score = RDG 1.0

          Hal shall not be disqualified and shall instead receive a scoring penalty and receive one additional point for a total of two points. Score = SCP 2.0

          All other boats scores shall remain the same.

      Given the facts I don't see how a Protest Committee can grant redress under 64.1, but that is not the scorers problem, that is what the appeals process is in place to handle!

      And once they make their mind up it will take you 30 seconds to score in SailWave thanks to Colin...

      I have listed the rules below for reference.

** 44.3 Scoring Penalty**

      (a) A boat takes a Scoring Penalty by displaying a yellow flag at the first reasonable opportunity after the incident.

** 62 REDRESS**

** 62.1** A request for redress or a protest committee’s decision to consider redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boat’s score in a race or series has, through no fault of her own, been made significantly worse by

      (a) an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest committee or organizing authority, but not by a protest committee decision when the boat was a *party* to the hearing;

      (b) injury or physical damage because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2 or of a vessel not *racing*           that was required to keep clear;

      (c) giving help (except to herself or her crew) in compliance with rule 1.1; or

      (d) a boat against which a penalty has been imposed under rule 2 or disciplinary action has been taken under rule 69.1(b).

** 64 DECISIONS**

** 64.1 Penalties and Exoneration**

      (a) When the protest committee decides that a boat that is a *party*           to a protest hearing has broken a *rule*          , it shall disqualify her unless some other penalty applies. A penalty shall be imposed whether or not the applicable *rule*           was mentioned in the *protest*.

** 64.2 Decisions on Redress**

      When the protest committee decides that a boat is entitled to redress under rule 62, it shall make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected, whether or not they asked for redress. This may be to adjust the scoring (see rule A10 for some examples) or finishing times of boats, to *abandon*           the race, to let the results stand or to make some other arrangement. When in doubt about the facts or probable results of any arrangement for the race or series, especially before *abandoning*           the race, the protest committee shall take evidence from appropriate sources.

** A6 CHANGES IN PLACES AND SCORES OF OTHER BOATS**

** A6.2** If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boat’s score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides otherwise.

** A10 GUIDANCE ON REDRESS**

      If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boat’s score for a race, it is advised to consider scoring her

      (a) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races in the series except the race in question;

      (b) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races before the race in question; or

      (c) points based on the position of the boat in the race at the time of the incident that justified redress.

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

      This is an interesting twist as now it has a different Series Winner as a tiebreaker.

      If Hal is scored 1<sup>st</sup> but receives a one point penalty, and Tim remains second, who receives the trophy for R5?

       I believe the point of the protest was for Tim to receive the crucial 1 point instead of 2 for the series. I also believe the 1<sup>st</sup> place was awarded to Tim on the day of the race.

      Any thoughts?

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 31 March 2009 04:58
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

      I am not sure that the protest committee can uphold the protest and give redress, but that is a different problem...

      The reason for the 1.5 is because you have two boats tied for first, so they split the points for 1st and 2nd.

      If the protest committee's decision was to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point penalty.

      Then shouldn't Hal be scored 1st plus a 1 point scoring penalty and Tim should remain 2nd.

GYC Dinghy Winter Series 08/09

Greenwich Yacht Club

Results as of 20:57 on March 30, 2009

Overall

            Sailed:6, Discards:1, To count:5, Ratings:PY, Entries:15, Scoring system:Appendix A

Rank

Skipper

R1

R2

R3

R4

R5

R6

Total

Nett

Notes

1st

Rebecca Scott

1.0

5.0

3.0

(15.0 DNF)

7.0

32.0

17.0

2nd

Tim Jeffries

2.0

7.0

4.0

2.0

(8.0)

25.0

17.0

3rd

Nick Fossey

(16.0 DNC)

3.0

1.0

15.0 DNF

1.0

39.0

23.0

4th

Steve Wilson

3.0

(16.0 DNC)

4.0

2.0

16.0 DNC

3.0

44.0

28.0

5th

Brian Harrison

(16.0 DNC)

4.0

6.0

16.0 DNC

5.0

2.0

49.0

33.0

6th

Tony Norwell

5.0

(16.0 DNC)

2.0

16.0 DNC

3.0

16.0 DNC

58.0

42.0

7th

Dan Groves

7.0

(16.0 DNC)

10.0 OOD

6.0

15.0 DNF

6.0

60.0

44.0

8th

Lucy Preston

(16.0 DNC)

5.0

16.0 DNC

7.0

16.0 DNC

5.0

65.0

49.0

9th

Toby Denham

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

1.0

16.0 DNC

4.0

16.0 DNC

69.0

53.0

10th

Richard Senior

4.0

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

5.0

16.0 DNC

73.0

57.0

11th

Simon Powell

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

8.0

16.0 DNC

6.0

16.0 DNC

78.0

62.0

12th

Hal Andrews

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

2.0 SCP+1

16.0 DNC

82.0

66.0

13th

Mark

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

4.0

84.0

68.0

14th

Louise Weight

6.0

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

86.0

70.0

15th

Frances

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

15.0 DNS

16.0 DNC

95.0

79.0

      Sailwave Scoring Software 2.00 build 3

www.sailwave.com

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:41 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

      Thank you for all the great responses, slowly starting to make a bit of sense of it all now.

      Hal finished first in race 5 and Tim finished second. The race was scored and entered as such. Then shortly after the boats came off the water the OOD was informed of the protest and a protest committee was called. The decided to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point penalty to effectively put him into second place and Tim into first place.

      Now as Sailwave user, I merely followed the OOD instructions updated Hals, score to RDG and entered the points to two. I can not recall now as this was some time ago, but I guess I must have changed Tim to 1st place to effectively show the results correctly.

      From what is described, I should not have done it in this way. In my defence I would say it seemed the logical way to do it at the time, it seemed to work as it was intended. It was only when race 6 was entered that the confusion came about. Not sure we how such a situation can be avoided for other novice users in the future.

      I have uploaded the results with race 6 as I had it before (as somebody asked for this)

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries6.blw

      I have now changed Hal’s score to 15th for race 5 with RDG and rescored which provided the results as I expected. (Although I was not aware that 3rd place would become second and not sure this is what the race committee wanted. But alas' the final standings stay the same and I will know what to do next time round. :)

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 14:53
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

      The file shows that you had a tie on the water for first place between Hal and Tim, is that correct?

      Hal was then given redress, scoring code RDG, for 2nd place.

      I don't see a copy of the file with 6 races scored, do you have that as well?

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

      You might be on to something here, but then I am still confused as to why the score became 1.5 even if it was because of the redress.

      I was also wondering whether it had anything to do with the new entry (Mark) in race 6 (or perhaps a combination of this and the Redress)

      R5 Tim hailed the protest to Hal for touching a mark and thought he was heard. Hal was not aware of it and did not take a penalty turn.

      No other source confirmed the mark being touched. The Protest committee decided to give redress instead of disqualify Hal.

      In Sailwave I changed Hal’s results to RDG and the points to 2 which produced what was required by committee. (It did however change Tim’s results to 1)

      As we can see, the next race altered Tim’s results to 1.5

      The blw file can be downloaded from:

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.blw

      Thanks for the prompt and helpful response.

Regards

      Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 00:52
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

      I think the problem may have started with the way the Race 5 redress was scored for Hal Andrews. What was the finding of the protest committee in respect to Hal Andrews score in race 5? Did they decide to adjust the other boats scores? If not Rule A6.2 states that *          "If the protest decides to give redress by adjusting a boat's score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides otherwise." *           Therefore I would have expected to see the following result for race five:

Rank

Skipper

Place

Nett

Notes

1

Tim Jeffries

1

1.0

2

Hal Andrews

RDG

2.0

2

Tony Norwell

2

2.0

3

Toby Denham

3

3.0

4

Brian Harrison

4

4.0

5

Richard Senior

5

5.0

7

Rebecca Scott

DNF

13.0

7

Nick Fossey

DNF

13.0

7

Dan Groves

DNF

13.0

10

Steve Wilson

DNC

14.0

10

Lucy Preston

DNC

14.0

10

Louise Weight

DNC

14.0

10

Frances

DNC

14.0

      Without being able to see the .blw file it is difficult to see why Sailwave is calculating the results in this manner.

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 3:22 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Using Version 1.5 Build 5

      Our series finished today with close competition between the two leaders. I
      was very much looking forward to wowing them by producing results as soon as
      the race finished. Nothing complicated about it. One design class so just
      enter the positions for the last race and rescore for the series results.

      Before todays race Tim was in the lead with 16 points. In the last race he
      scored 1 point for first place.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.bak.htm

      But today he did poorly and strangely so did the runner up. What I do not
      understand is why, after re-scoring the series, Tim has received 1.5 points
      for the last event. Why would this have changed.

      Here is the score after todays race, and race5 has clearly changed the score

for the winner.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.htm

Regards
Terry



---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - [www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com)
Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.35/2034 - Release Date: 04/01/09 06:06:00

Philippe_DE_TROY · 7 April 2009 10:41

John,

When you delete R6 from the regatta, and re-score, Tim is always ranked with 1.5.

1.5 shows a tie on the water and this was not the case.

Change his rank to 2 as on the water and give him RDG 1 and everything is repaired

Anyway the case is interesting, I’m asking an expert IJ about it, and in case of doubt, I will request an interpretation by ISAF, can take months for an answer.

There is a problem indeed.

Example (let’s assume it’s in 49er, so the case is realistic).

Last downwind leg for boat A, downwind on Stbd tack, 1st /15. Collision course with F, 6th, closehauled on port tack. A has to alter the course to avoid imminent collision and capsizes. You know 49er, it takes time to get the boat upright and sailing again, so B, C, D and E pass A, and finish 1, 2, 3 and 4, except that A comes back and half of the committe see A as 4th, the other half as 5th, and they decide to rank both as 4, should be scored 4.5.

Bad luck, F ties also with G for 6th place, both scored 6.5

A protests F and requests for redress. And wins.

Decision is A RDG 1 (was the average place in previous races) and F PEN 20% (3 places).

Questions/solutions

A scored 1.0 RDG
B scored 1.0
E scored 4.5 or 4.0 ???
G scored 6.5 or 6.0 ???
F scored for 6+3 = 9.0 PEN

Phil

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Harvey, John

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:26 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

No I still don’t understand

I understand of course that DNC changes but why does that affect the scoring of 1,2 in R5?

If you take the series with R6 added then Tim is scored 1.5 points.

If you delete Mark who was a new sailer in R6 then Tim is scored as 1 point.

I dont understand why adding that 1 sailor changes the points for Tim.

John

From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] ** On Behalf Of** Philippe DE TROY
Sent: 07 April 2009 10:01
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Adding another competitor in R6 affects the scores for codes, i.e. you score DNF as n and DNC as n+1, so after R5, DNF and associated codes are scored 14 and DNC and associated are scored as 15, but after R6, all previous races are also rescored and DNF becomes 15, DNC becomes 16.  As many competitors have more codes than discardable, all, except some at the top of the ranking, are affected and this is not a bug...

Perhaps you didn't notice the 1.5, it was clearly induced by the re-scoring of Tim as 1 without setting this as a RDG

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From:
Harvey, John

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:50 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

  I'm not sure (but i could be missing somethin)

  With his R6 added it scores 1.5 for 1st place in R5.

  I just had a quick play again and this seems to be because an extra person gets added to the results in R6 and somehow that alters the scoring for R5.

  Why should adding the 15th competitor in race 6 change the points scored in R5?

  This is in Sw 2 B3. Link to series with 6 races

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries6.blw

John

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe DE TROY
Sent: 06 April 2009 10:59
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Colin,

    The bug does not appear in 1.92 built 12 and 2.03

    This was due to a wrong setting of the ranks and codes...

    H finished first and was later dsq, further rdg 2nd whilr T finished 2 but was re-ranked 1.

    As SW 1.57 scored ties on ranks, regardless of further DSQ, T was then scored 1.5 as 2 1st were found, other competitors not re-ranked: 3, 4, 5...

    With SW 1.95 and subsequent,          the scores are correct.

    The scorer should have let ranks 1 to H and 2 to T, then T rdg 1 and H pen 2...

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:41 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

      hi all - not followed this thread in detail yet - is there stuff i need to do (bugs to fix) or was it resolved...?

cj

Terry wrote:

        Hi Mark,

        Thank you very much for your very interesting and complete response. I did take your previous email back to the Dinghy Captain and it was decided to stick to the original score and not make any further changes now as results have already been announced.

        I was also informed that the decision was in fact to Penalise Hal in Race 5 by awarding him a time penalty (for not taking the penalty turn) and the time penalty would have been enough to place Hal second. As I was not scoring SW with elapsed times and thought it would be good to reflect an alteration by showing RDG (perhaps as you point out, this should have been SCP)

        Anyhow, I read your posting with great interest and feel I now know a lot more about scoring. I will also pass your comments on to those involved.

        Thanks again for your time and interest

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 01 April 2009 13:49
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

        As the scorer send this one back to the protest committee and request they clarify their scoring instructions.

        It seems the result the protest committee wants is 1st Tim, 2nd Hal. The result on the water was 1st Hal, 2nd Tim. You need to know which rules they are using to get to the desired result so that the results can have the correct scoring codes.

        Request clarification of the following; what are the facts found, what rules apply, which boats scores should be adjusted, and which rule is being used to adjust each score. Specifically how did the protest committee find in respect to the following rules?

          Rule 64.1(a) requires that if Hal was found to have broken a rule he should be disqualified, unless some other penalty applies. I don't see any other penalty applying?

          Under which part of Rule 62 are they granting redress to Hal? If anyone the redress should be to Tim? Although I don't see how they can give redress to anyone given the described situation.

          Under 64.2 they can "make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected", however there are more boats affected than just Hal and Tim. What about Rebecca, who as a result of the protest and the granted redress will no longer win the Winter Series, was this considered?

        If they want the result that you have expressed, then they should have issued scoring instructions along the following lines:

          Redress is granted under Rule 64.1(?), the following scoring adjustments shall be made under Rule 64.2.

            Tim shall be granted redress and receive points for 1st place. Score = RDG 1.0

            Hal shall not be disqualified and shall instead receive a scoring penalty and receive one additional point for a total of two points. Score = SCP 2.0

            All other boats scores shall remain the same.

        Given the facts I don't see how a Protest Committee can grant redress under 64.1, but that is not the scorers problem, that is what the appeals process is in place to handle!

        And once they make their mind up it will take you 30 seconds to score in SailWave thanks to Colin...

        I have listed the rules below for reference.

** 44.3 Scoring Penalty**

        (a) A boat takes a Scoring Penalty by displaying a yellow flag at the first reasonable opportunity after the incident.

** 62 REDRESS**

** 62.1** A request for redress or a protest committees decision to consider redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boats score in a race or series has, through no fault of her own, been made significantly worse by

        (a) an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest committee or organizing authority, but not by a protest committee decision when the boat was a *party* to the hearing;

        (b) injury or physical damage because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2 or of a vessel not *racing*             that was required to keep clear;

        (c) giving help (except to herself or her crew) in compliance with rule 1.1; or

        (d) a boat against which a penalty has been imposed under rule 2 or disciplinary action has been taken under rule 69.1(b).

** 64 DECISIONS**

** 64.1 Penalties and Exoneration**

        (a) When the protest committee decides that a boat that is a *party*             to a protest hearing has broken a *rule*            , it shall disqualify her unless some other penalty applies. A penalty shall be imposed whether or not the applicable *rule*             was mentioned in the *protest*.

** 64.2 Decisions on Redress**

        When the protest committee decides that a boat is entitled to redress under rule 62, it shall make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected, whether or not they asked for redress. This may be to adjust the scoring (see rule A10 for some examples) or finishing times of boats, to *abandon*             the race, to let the results stand or to make some other arrangement. When in doubt about the facts or probable results of any arrangement for the race or series, especially before *abandoning*             the race, the protest committee shall take evidence from appropriate sources.

** A6 CHANGES IN PLACES AND SCORES OF OTHER BOATS**

** A6.2** If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boats score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides otherwise.

** A10 GUIDANCE ON REDRESS**

        If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boats score for a race, it is advised to consider scoring her

        (a) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races in the series except the race in question;

        (b) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races before the race in question; or

        (c) points based on the position of the boat in the race at the time of the incident that justified redress.

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

        This is an interesting twist as now it has a different Series Winner as a tiebreaker.

        If Hal is scored 1<sup>st</sup> but receives a one point penalty, and Tim remains second, who receives the trophy for R5?

         I believe the point of the protest was for Tim to receive the crucial 1 point instead of 2 for the series. I also believe the 1<sup>st</sup> place was awarded to Tim on the day of the race.

        Any thoughts?

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 31 March 2009 04:58
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

        I am not sure that the protest committee can uphold the protest and give redress, but that is a different problem...

        The reason for the 1.5 is because you have two boats tied for first, so they split the points for 1st and 2nd.

        If the protest committee's decision was to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point penalty.

        Then shouldn't Hal be scored 1st plus a 1 point scoring penalty and Tim should remain 2nd.

GYC Dinghy Winter Series 08/09

Greenwich Yacht Club

Results as of 20:57 on March 30, 2009

Overall

              Sailed:6, Discards:1, To count:5, Ratings:PY, Entries:15, Scoring system:Appendix A

Rank

Skipper

R1

R2

R3

R4

R5

R6

Total

Nett

Notes

1st

Rebecca Scott

1.0

5.0

3.0

(15.0 DNF)

7.0

32.0

17.0

2nd

Tim Jeffries

2.0

7.0

4.0

2.0

(8.0)

25.0

17.0

3rd

Nick Fossey

(16.0 DNC)

3.0

1.0

15.0 DNF

1.0

39.0

23.0

4th

Steve Wilson

3.0

(16.0 DNC)

4.0

2.0

16.0 DNC

3.0

44.0

28.0

5th

Brian Harrison

(16.0 DNC)

4.0

6.0

16.0 DNC

5.0

2.0

49.0

33.0

6th

Tony Norwell

5.0

(16.0 DNC)

2.0

16.0 DNC

3.0

16.0 DNC

58.0

42.0

7th

Dan Groves

7.0

(16.0 DNC)

10.0 OOD

6.0

15.0 DNF

6.0

60.0

44.0

8th

Lucy Preston

(16.0 DNC)

5.0

16.0 DNC

7.0

16.0 DNC

5.0

65.0

49.0

9th

Toby Denham

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

1.0

16.0 DNC

4.0

16.0 DNC

69.0

53.0

10th

Richard Senior

4.0

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

5.0

16.0 DNC

73.0

57.0

11th

Simon Powell

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

8.0

16.0 DNC

6.0

16.0 DNC

78.0

62.0

12th

Hal Andrews

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

2.0 SCP+1

16.0 DNC

82.0

66.0

13th

Mark

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

4.0

84.0

68.0

14th

Louise Weight

6.0

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

86.0

70.0

15th

Frances

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

15.0 DNS

16.0 DNC

95.0

79.0

        Sailwave Scoring Software 2.00 build 3

www.sailwave.com

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:41 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

        Thank you for all the great responses, slowly starting to make a bit of sense of it all now.

        Hal finished first in race 5 and Tim finished second. The race was scored and entered as such. Then shortly after the boats came off the water the OOD was informed of the protest and a protest committee was called. The decided to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point penalty to effectively put him into second place and Tim into first place.

        Now as Sailwave user, I merely followed the OOD instructions updated Hals, score to RDG and entered the points to two. I can not recall now as this was some time ago, but I guess I must have changed Tim to 1st place to effectively show the results correctly.

        From what is described, I should not have done it in this way. In my defence I would say it seemed the logical way to do it at the time, it seemed to work as it was intended. It was only when race 6 was entered that the confusion came about. Not sure we how such a situation can be avoided for other novice users in the future.

        I have uploaded the results with race 6 as I had it before (as somebody asked for this)

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries6.blw

        I have now changed Hals score to 15th for race 5 with RDG and rescored which provided the results as I expected. (Although I was not aware that 3rd place would become second and not sure this is what the race committee wanted. But alas' the final standings stay the same and I will know what to do next time round. :)

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 14:53
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

        The file shows that you had a tie on the water for first place between Hal and Tim, is that correct?

        Hal was then given redress, scoring code RDG, for 2nd place.

        I don't see a copy of the file with 6 races scored, do you have that as well?

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

        You might be on to something here, but then I am still confused as to why the score became 1.5 even if it was because of the redress.

        I was also wondering whether it had anything to do with the new entry (Mark) in race 6 (or perhaps a combination of this and the Redress)

        R5 Tim hailed the protest to Hal for touching a mark and thought he was heard. Hal was not aware of it and did not take a penalty turn.

        No other source confirmed the mark being touched. The Protest committee decided to give redress instead of disqualify Hal.

        In Sailwave I changed Hals results to RDG and the points to 2 which produced what was required by committee. (It did however change Tims results to 1)

        As we can see, the next race altered Tims results to 1.5

        The blw file can be downloaded from:

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.blw

        Thanks for the prompt and helpful response.

Regards

        Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 00:52
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

        I think the problem may have started with the way the Race 5 redress was scored for Hal Andrews. What was the finding of the protest committee in respect to Hal Andrews score in race 5? Did they decide to adjust the other boats scores? If not Rule A6.2 states that *            "If the protest decides to give redress by adjusting a boat's score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides otherwise." *             Therefore I would have expected to see the following result for race five:

Rank

Skipper

Place

Nett

Notes

1

Tim Jeffries

1

1.0

2

Hal Andrews

RDG

2.0

2

Tony Norwell

2

2.0

3

Toby Denham

3

3.0

4

Brian Harrison

4

4.0

5

Richard Senior

5

5.0

7

Rebecca Scott

DNF

13.0

7

Nick Fossey

DNF

13.0

7

Dan Groves

DNF

13.0

10

Steve Wilson

DNC

14.0

10

Lucy Preston

DNC

14.0

10

Louise Weight

DNC

14.0

10

Frances

DNC

14.0

        Without being able to see the .blw file it is difficult to see why Sailwave is calculating the results in this manner.

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 3:22 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Using Version 1.5 Build 5

        Our series finished today with close competition between the two leaders. I
        was very much looking forward to wowing them by producing results as soon as
        the race finished. Nothing complicated about it. One design class so just
        enter the positions for the last race and rescore for the series results.

        Before todays race Tim was in the lead with 16 points. In the last race he
        scored 1 point for first place.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.bak.htm

        But today he did poorly and strangely so did the runner up. What I do not
        understand is why, after re-scoring the series, Tim has received 1.5 points
        for the last event. Why would this have changed.

        Here is the score after todays race, and race5 has clearly changed the score

for the winner.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.htm

Regards
Terry



---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - [www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com)
Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.35/2034 - Release Date: 04/01/09 06:06:00

Philippe_DE_TROY · 7 April 2009 10:57

Colin, after lots of simulations, it appears that there is something wrong indeed…

I rescored on 6 races by 15 competitors (the reference file) Tim is scored 1.5

I delete race 6 but NOT the 15th competitor, Tim is scored 1.5

I delete the 15th competitor, Tim is scored 1.0

I insert a new competitor, no results, and I rescore, 1.5 again…

This bug is out of the logics of appendix A

But once again, it wouldn’t appear if only 1 boat was ranked 1 on the water. If Tim is ranked 2 then RDG-1, no problem.

It helped anyway to raise a question about ties on the water and I look further for a solution.

Phil

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:41 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

hi all - not followed this thread in detail yet - is there stuff i need to do (bugs to fix) or was it resolved…?
cj

Terry wrote:
Hi Mark,

Thank you very much for your very interesting and complete response. I did take your previous email back to the Dinghy Captain and it was decided to stick to the original score and not make any further changes now as results have already been announced.

I was also informed that the decision was in fact to Penalise Hal in Race 5 by awarding him a time penalty (for not taking the penalty turn) and the time penalty would have been enough to place Hal second. As I was not scoring SW with elapsed times and thought it would be good to reflect an alteration by showing RDG (perhaps as you point out, this should have been SCP)

Anyhow, I read your posting with great interest and feel I now know a lot more about scoring. I will also pass your comments on to those involved.

Thanks again for your time and interest

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 01 April 2009 13:49
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

As the scorer send this one back to the protest committee and request they clarify their scoring instructions.

It seems the result the protest committee wants is 1st Tim, 2nd Hal. The result on the water was 1st Hal, 2nd Tim. You need to know which rules they are using to get to the desired result so that the results can have the correct scoring codes.

Request clarification of the following; what are the facts found, what rules apply, which boats scores should be adjusted, and which rule is being used to adjust each score. Specifically how did the protest committee find in respect to the following rules?

  Rule 64.1(a) requires that if Hal was found to have broken a rule he should be disqualified, unless some other penalty applies. I don't see any other penalty applying?

  Under which part of Rule 62 are they granting redress to Hal? If anyone the redress should be to Tim? Although I don't see how they can give redress to anyone given the described situation.

  Under 64.2 they can "make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected", however there are more boats affected than just Hal and Tim. What about Rebecca, who as a result of the protest and the granted redress will no longer win the Winter Series, was this considered?

If they want the result that you have expressed, then they should have issued scoring instructions along the following lines:

  Redress is granted under Rule 64.1(?), the following scoring adjustments shall be made under Rule 64.2.

    Tim shall be granted redress and receive points for 1st place. Score = RDG 1.0

    Hal shall not be disqualified and shall instead receive a scoring penalty and receive one additional point for a total of two points. Score = SCP 2.0

    All other boats scores shall remain the same.

Given the facts I don't see how a Protest Committee can grant redress under 64.1, but that is not the scorers problem, that is what the appeals process is in place to handle!

And once they make their mind up it will take you 30 seconds to score in SailWave thanks to Colin...

I have listed the rules below for reference.

** 44.3 Scoring Penalty**

(a) A boat takes a Scoring Penalty by displaying a yellow flag at the first reasonable opportunity after the incident.

** 62 REDRESS**

** 62.1** A request for redress or a protest committees decision to consider redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boats score in a race or series has, through no fault of her own, been made significantly worse by

(a) an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest committee or organizing authority, but not by a protest committee decision when the boat was a *party* to the hearing;

(b) injury or physical damage because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2 or of a vessel not *racing*     that was required to keep clear;

(c) giving help (except to herself or her crew) in compliance with rule 1.1; or

(d) a boat against which a penalty has been imposed under rule 2 or disciplinary action has been taken under rule 69.1(b).

** 64 DECISIONS**

** 64.1 Penalties and Exoneration**

(a) When the protest committee decides that a boat that is a *party*     to a protest hearing has broken a *rule*    , it shall disqualify her unless some other penalty applies. A penalty shall be imposed whether or not the applicable *rule*     was mentioned in the *protest*.

** 64.2 Decisions on Redress**

When the protest committee decides that a boat is entitled to redress under rule 62, it shall make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected, whether or not they asked for redress. This may be to adjust the scoring (see rule A10 for some examples) or finishing times of boats, to *    abandon*     the race, to let the results stand or to make some other arrangement. When in doubt about the facts or probable results of any arrangement for the race or series, especially before *abandoning*     the race, the protest committee shall take evidence from appropriate sources.

** A6 CHANGES IN PLACES AND SCORES OF OTHER BOATS**

** A6.2** If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boats score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides otherwise.

** A10 GUIDANCE ON REDRESS**

If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boats score for a race, it is advised to consider scoring her

(a) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races in the series except the race in question;

(b) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races before the race in question; or

(c) points based on the position of the boat in the race at the time of the incident that justified redress.

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

This is an interesting twist as now it has a different Series Winner as a tiebreaker.

If Hal is scored 1<sup>st</sup> but receives a one point penalty, and Tim remains second, who receives the trophy for R5?

 I believe the point of the protest was for Tim to receive the crucial 1 point instead of 2 for the series. I also believe the 1<sup>st</sup> place was awarded to Tim on the day of the race.

Any thoughts?

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 31 March 2009 04:58
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

I am not sure that the protest committee can uphold the protest and give redress, but that is a different problem...

The reason for the 1.5 is because you have two boats tied for first, so they split the points for 1st and 2nd.

If the protest committee's decision was to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point penalty.

Then shouldn't Hal be scored 1st plus a 1 point scoring penalty and Tim should remain 2nd.

GYC Dinghy Winter Series 08/09

Greenwich Yacht Club

Results as of 20:57 on March 30, 2009

Overall

      Sailed:6, Discards:1, To count:5, Ratings:PY, Entries:15, Scoring system:Appendix A

Rank

Skipper

R1

R2

R3

R4

R5

R6

Total

Nett

Notes

1st

Rebecca Scott

1.0

5.0

3.0

(15.0 DNF)

7.0

32.0

17.0

2nd

Tim Jeffries

2.0

7.0

4.0

2.0

(8.0)

25.0

17.0

3rd

Nick Fossey

(16.0 DNC)

3.0

1.0

15.0 DNF

1.0

39.0

23.0

4th

Steve Wilson

3.0

(16.0 DNC)

4.0

2.0

16.0 DNC

3.0

44.0

28.0

5th

Brian Harrison

(16.0 DNC)

4.0

6.0

16.0 DNC

5.0

2.0

49.0

33.0

6th

Tony Norwell

5.0

(16.0 DNC)

2.0

16.0 DNC

3.0

16.0 DNC

58.0

42.0

7th

Dan Groves

7.0

(16.0 DNC)

10.0 OOD

6.0

15.0 DNF

6.0

60.0

44.0

8th

Lucy Preston

(16.0 DNC)

5.0

16.0 DNC

7.0

16.0 DNC

5.0

65.0

49.0

9th

Toby Denham

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

1.0

16.0 DNC

4.0

16.0 DNC

69.0

53.0

10th

Richard Senior

4.0

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

5.0

16.0 DNC

73.0

57.0

11th

Simon Powell

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

8.0

16.0 DNC

6.0

16.0 DNC

78.0

62.0

12th

Hal Andrews

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

2.0 SCP+1

16.0 DNC

82.0

66.0

13th

Mark

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

4.0

84.0

68.0

14th

Louise Weight

6.0

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

86.0

70.0

15th

Frances

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

15.0 DNS

16.0 DNC

95.0

79.0

Sailwave Scoring Software 2.00 build 3

www.sailwave.com

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:41 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Thank you for all the great responses, slowly starting to make a bit of sense of it all now.

Hal finished first in race 5 and Tim finished second. The race was scored and entered as such. Then shortly after the boats came off the water the OOD was informed of the protest and a protest committee was called. The decided to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point penalty to effectively put him into second place and Tim into first place.

Now as Sailwave user, I merely followed the OOD instructions updated Hals, score to RDG and entered the points to two. I can not recall now as this was some time ago, but I guess I must have changed Tim to 1st place to effectively show the results correctly.

From what is described, I should not have done it in this way. In my defence I would say it seemed the logical way to do it at the time, it seemed to work as it was intended. It was only when race 6 was entered that the confusion came about. Not sure we how such a situation can be avoided for other novice users in the future.

I have uploaded the results with race 6 as I had it before (as somebody asked for this)

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries6.blw

I have now changed Hals score to 15th for race 5 with RDG and rescored which provided the results as I expected. (Although I was not aware that 3rd place would become second and not sure this is what the race committee wanted. But alas' the final standings stay the same and I will know what to do next time round. :)

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 14:53
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

The file shows that you had a tie on the water for first place between Hal and Tim, is that correct?

Hal was then given redress, scoring code RDG, for 2nd place.

I don't see a copy of the file with 6 races scored, do you have that as well?

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

You might be on to something here, but then I am still confused as to why the score became 1.5 even if it was because of the redress.

I was also wondering whether it had anything to do with the new entry (Mark) in race 6 (or perhaps a combination of this and the Redress)

R5 Tim hailed the protest to Hal for touching a mark and thought he was heard. Hal was not aware of it and did not take a penalty turn.

No other source confirmed the mark being touched. The Protest committee decided to give redress instead of disqualify Hal.

In Sailwave I changed Hals results to RDG and the points to 2 which produced what was required by committee. (It did however change Tims results to 1)

As we can see, the next race altered Tims results to 1.5

The blw file can be downloaded from:

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.blw

Thanks for the prompt and helpful response.

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 00:52
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

I think the problem may have started with the way the Race 5 redress was scored for Hal Andrews. What was the finding of the protest committee in respect to Hal Andrews score in race 5? Did they decide to adjust the other boats scores? If not Rule A6.2 states that *    "If the protest decides to give redress by adjusting a boat's score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides otherwise." *     Therefore I would have expected to see the following result for race five:

Rank

Skipper

Place

Nett

Notes

1

Tim Jeffries

1

1.0

2

Hal Andrews

RDG

2.0

2

Tony Norwell

2

2.0

3

Toby Denham

3

3.0

4

Brian Harrison

4

4.0

5

Richard Senior

5

5.0

7

Rebecca Scott

DNF

13.0

7

Nick Fossey

DNF

13.0

7

Dan Groves

DNF

13.0

10

Steve Wilson

DNC

14.0

10

Lucy Preston

DNC

14.0

10

Louise Weight

DNC

14.0

10

Frances

DNC

14.0

Without being able to see the .blw file it is difficult to see why Sailwave is calculating the results in this manner.

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 3:22 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Using Version 1.5 Build 5

Our series finished today with close competition between the two leaders. I
was very much looking forward to wowing them by producing results as soon as
the race finished. Nothing complicated about it. One design class so just
enter the positions for the last race and rescore for the series results.

Before todays race Tim was in the lead with 16 points. In the last race he
scored 1 point for first place.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.bak.htm

But today he did poorly and strangely so did the runner up. What I do not
understand is why, after re-scoring the series, Tim has received 1.5 points

for the last event. Why would this have changed.

Here is the score after todays race, and race5 has clearly changed the score
for the winner.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.htm

Regards
Terry



---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - [www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com)
Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.35/2034 - Release Date: 04/01/09 06:06:00

Gordon_Davies · 7 April 2009 11:59

On what grounds does A get redress? There is no damage or injury (merely a capsize) so 62.1b does not apply. The only grounds would be that F has a penalty imposed for a rule 2 infringement - unlikely in the case of a simple port and starboard, or even a rule 69 hearing goes against her.

Gordon

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Philippe DE TROY

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:41 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

John,

When you delete R6 from the regatta, and re-score, Tim is always ranked with 1.5.

1.5 shows a tie on the water and this was not the case.

Change his rank to 2 as on the water and give him RDG 1 and everything is repaired

Anyway the case is interesting, I’m asking an expert IJ about it, and in case of doubt, I will request an interpretation by ISAF, can take months for an answer.

There is a problem indeed.

Example (let’s assume it’s in 49er, so the case is realistic).

Last downwind leg for boat A, downwind on Stbd tack, 1st /15. Collision course with F, 6th, closehauled on port tack. A has to alter the course to avoid imminent collision and capsizes. You know 49er, it takes time to get the boat upright and sailing again, so B, C, D and E pass A, and finish 1, 2, 3 and 4, except that A comes back and half of the committe see A as 4th, the other half as 5th, and they decide to rank both as 4, should be scored 4.5.

Bad luck, F ties also with G for 6th place, both scored 6.5

A protests F and requests for redress. And wins.

Decision is A RDG 1 (was the average place in previous races) and F PEN 20% (3 places).

Questions/solutions

A scored 1.0 RDG

B scored 1.0

E scored 4.5 or 4.0 ???

G scored 6.5 or 6.0 ???
F scored for 6+3 = 9.0 PEN

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Harvey, John

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:26 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

No I still don’t understand

I understand of course that DNC changes but why does that affect the scoring of 1,2 in R5?

If you take the series with R6 added then Tim is scored 1.5 points.

If you delete Mark who was a new sailer in R6 then Tim is scored as 1 point.

I dont understand why adding that 1 sailor changes the points for Tim.

John

From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Philippe DE TROY
Sent: 07 April 2009 10:01
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

  Adding another competitor in R6 affects the scores for codes, i.e. you score DNF as n and DNC as n+1, so after R5, DNF and associated codes are scored 14 and DNC and associated are scored as 15, but after R6, all previous races are also rescored and DNF becomes 15, DNC becomes 16.  As many competitors have more codes than discardable, all, except some at the top of the ranking, are affected and this is not a bug...

  Perhaps you didn't notice the 1.5, it was clearly induced by the re-scoring of Tim as 1 without setting this as a RDG

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Harvey, John

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:50 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

    I'm not sure (but i could be missing somethin)

    With his R6 added it scores 1.5 for 1st place in R5.

    I just had a quick play again and this seems to be because an extra person gets added to the results in R6 and somehow that alters the scoring for R5.

    Why should adding the 15th competitor in race 6 change the points scored in R5?

    This is in Sw 2 B3. Link to series with 6 races

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries6.blw

John

From: sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] ** On Behalf Of** Philippe DE TROY
Sent: 06 April 2009 10:59
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Colin,

      The bug does not appear in 1.92 built 12 and 2.03

      This was due to a wrong setting of the ranks and codes...

      H finished first and was later dsq, further rdg 2nd whilr T finished 2 but was re-ranked 1.

      As SW 1.57 scored ties on ranks, regardless of further DSQ, T was then scored 1.5 as 2 1st were found, other competitors not re-ranked: 3, 4, 5...

      With SW 1.95 and subsequent,            the scores are correct.

      The scorer should have let ranks 1 to H and 2 to T, then T rdg 1 and H pen 2...

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:41 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

        hi all - not followed this thread in detail yet - is there stuff i need to do (bugs to fix) or was it resolved...?

cj

Terry wrote:

          Hi Mark,

          Thank you very much for your very interesting and complete response. I did take your previous email back to the Dinghy Captain and it was decided to stick to the original score and not make any further changes now as results have already been announced.

          I was also informed that the decision was in fact to Penalise Hal in Race 5 by awarding him a time penalty (for not taking the penalty turn) and the time penalty would have been enough to place Hal second. As I was not scoring SW with elapsed times and thought it would be good to reflect an alteration by showing RDG (perhaps as you point out, this should have been SCP)

          Anyhow, I read your posting with great interest and feel I now know a lot more about scoring. I will also pass your comments on to those involved.

          Thanks again for your time and interest

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 01 April 2009 13:49
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

          As the scorer send this one back to the protest committee and request they clarify their scoring instructions.

          It seems the result the protest committee wants is 1st Tim, 2nd Hal. The result on the water was 1st Hal, 2nd Tim. You need to know which rules they are using to get to the desired result so that the results can have the correct scoring codes.

          Request clarification of the following; what are the facts found, what rules apply, which boats scores should be adjusted, and which rule is being used to adjust each score. Specifically how did the protest committee find in respect to the following rules?

            Rule 64.1(a) requires that if Hal was found to have broken a rule he should be disqualified, unless some other penalty applies. I don't see any other penalty applying?

            Under which part of Rule 62 are they granting redress to Hal? If anyone the redress should be to Tim? Although I don't see how they can give redress to anyone given the described situation.

            Under 64.2 they can "make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected", however there are more boats affected than just Hal and Tim. What about Rebecca, who as a result of the protest and the granted redress will no longer win the Winter Series, was this considered?
       If they want the result that you have expressed, then they should have issued scoring instructions along the following lines:

            Redress is granted under Rule 64.1(?), the following scoring adjustments shall be made under Rule 64.2.

              Tim shall be granted redress and receive points for 1st place. Score = RDG 1.0

              Hal shall not be disqualified and shall instead receive a scoring penalty and receive one additional point for a total of two points. Score = SCP 2.0

              All other boats scores shall remain the same.
        Given the facts I don't see how a Protest Committee can grant redress under 64.1, but that is not the scorers problem, that is what the appeals process is in place to handle!

          And once they make their mind up it will take you 30 seconds to score in SailWave thanks to Colin...

          I have listed the rules below for reference.

** 44.3 Scoring Penalty**

          (a) A boat takes a Scoring Penalty by displaying a yellow flag at the first reasonable opportunity after the incident.

** 62 REDRESS**

** 62.1** A request for redress or a protest committees decision to consider redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boats score in a race or series has, through no fault of her own, been made significantly worse by

          (a) an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest committee or organizing authority, but not by a protest committee decision when the boat was a *party* to the hearing;

          (b) injury or physical damage because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2 or of a vessel not *racing*               that was required to keep clear;

          (c) giving help (except to herself or her crew) in compliance with rule 1.1; or

          (d) a boat against which a penalty has been imposed under rule 2 or disciplinary action has been taken under rule 69.1(b).

** 64 DECISIONS**

** 64.1 Penalties and Exoneration**

          (a) When the protest committee decides that a boat that is a *party*               to a protest hearing has broken a *rule*              , it shall disqualify her unless some other penalty applies. A penalty shall be imposed whether or not the applicable *rule*               was mentioned in the *protest*.

** 64.2 Decisions on Redress**

          When the protest committee decides that a boat is entitled to redress under rule 62, it shall make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected, whether or not they asked for redress. This may be to adjust the scoring (see rule A10 for some examples) or finishing times of boats, to *abandon*               the race, to let the results stand or to make some other arrangement. When in doubt about the facts or probable results of any arrangement for the race or series, especially before *abandoning*               the race, the protest committee shall take evidence from appropriate sources.

** A6 CHANGES IN PLACES AND SCORES OF OTHER BOATS**

A6.2 If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boats score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides otherwise.

** A10 GUIDANCE ON REDRESS**

          If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boats score for a race, it is advised to consider scoring her

          (a) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races in the series except the race in question;

          (b) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races before the race in question; or

          (c) points based on the position of the boat in the race at the time of the incident that justified redress.

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

          This is an interesting twist as now it has a different Series Winner as a tiebreaker.

          If Hal is scored 1<sup>st</sup> but receives a one point penalty, and Tim remains second, who receives the trophy for R5?

           I believe the point of the protest was for Tim to receive the crucial 1 point instead of 2 for the series. I also believe the 1<sup>st</sup>
          place was awarded to Tim on the day of the race.

          Any thoughts?

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 31 March 2009 04:58
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

          I am not sure that the protest committee can uphold the protest and give redress, but that is a different problem...

          The reason for the 1.5 is because you have two boats tied for first, so they split the points for 1st and 2nd.

          If the protest committee's decision was to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point penalty.

          Then shouldn't Hal be scored 1st plus a 1 point scoring penalty and Tim should remain 2nd.

GYC Dinghy Winter Series 08/09

Greenwich Yacht Club

Results as of 20:57 on March 30, 2009

Overall
                Sailed:6, Discards:1, To count:5, Ratings:PY, Entries:15, Scoring system:Appendix A

Rank

Skipper

R1

R2

R3

R4

R5

R6

Total

Nett

Notes

1st

Rebecca Scott

1.0

5.0

3.0

(15.0 DNF)

7.0

32.0

17.0

2nd

Tim Jeffries

2.0

7.0

4.0

2.0

(8.0)

25.0

17.0

3rd

Nick Fossey

(16.0 DNC)

3.0

1.0

15.0 DNF

1.0

39.0

23.0

4th

Steve Wilson

3.0

(16.0 DNC)

4.0

2.0

16.0 DNC

3.0

44.0

28.0

5th

Brian Harrison

(16.0 DNC)

4.0

6.0

16.0 DNC

5.0

2.0

49.0

33.0

6th

Tony Norwell

5.0

(16.0 DNC)

2.0

16.0 DNC

3.0

16.0 DNC

58.0

42.0

7th

Dan Groves

7.0

(16.0 DNC)

10.0 OOD

6.0

15.0 DNF

6.0

60.0

44.0

8th

Lucy Preston

(16.0 DNC)

5.0

16.0 DNC

7.0

16.0 DNC

5.0

65.0

49.0

9th

Toby Denham

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

1.0

16.0 DNC

4.0

16.0 DNC

69.0

53.0

10th

Richard Senior

4.0

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

5.0

16.0 DNC

73.0

57.0

11th

Simon Powell

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

8.0

16.0 DNC

6.0

16.0 DNC

78.0

62.0

12th

Hal Andrews

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

2.0 SCP+1

16.0 DNC

82.0

66.0

13th

Mark

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

4.0

84.0

68.0

14th

Louise Weight

6.0

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

86.0

70.0

15th

Frances

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

15.0 DNS

16.0 DNC

95.0

79.0

          Sailwave Scoring Software 2.00 build 3

www.sailwave.com

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:41 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

          Thank you for all the great responses, slowly starting to make a bit of sense of it all now.

          Hal finished first in race 5 and Tim finished second. The race was scored and entered as such. Then shortly after the boats came off the water the OOD was informed of the protest and a protest committee was called. The decided to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point penalty to effectively put him into second place and Tim into first place.

          Now as Sailwave user, I merely followed the OOD instructions updated Hals, score to RDG and entered the points to two. I can not recall now as this was some time ago, but I guess I must have changed Tim to 1st place to effectively show the results correctly.

          From what is described, I should not have done it in this way. In my defence I would say it seemed the logical way to do it at the time, it seemed to work as it was intended. It was only when race 6 was entered that the confusion came about. Not sure we how such a situation can be avoided for other novice users in the future.

          I have uploaded the results with race 6 as I had it before (as somebody asked for this)

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries6.blw

          I have now changed Hals score to 15th for race 5 with RDG and rescored which provided the results as I expected. (Although I was not aware that 3rd place would become second and not sure this is what the race committee wanted. But alas' the final standings stay the same and I will know what to do next time round. :)

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 14:53
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

          The file shows that you had a tie on the water for first place between Hal and Tim, is that correct?

          Hal was then given redress, scoring code RDG, for 2nd place.

          I don't see a copy of the file with 6 races scored, do you have that as well?

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

          You might be on to something here, but then I am still confused as to why the score became 1.5 even if it was because of the redress.

          I was also wondering whether it had anything to do with the new entry (Mark) in race 6 (or perhaps a combination of this and the Redress)

          R5 Tim hailed the protest to Hal for touching a mark and thought he was heard. Hal was not aware of it and did not take a penalty turn.

          No other source confirmed the mark being touched. The Protest committee decided to give redress instead of disqualify Hal.

          In Sailwave I changed Hals results to RDG and the points to 2 which produced what was required by committee. (It did however change Tims results to 1)

          As we can see, the next race altered Tims results to 1.5

          The blw file can be downloaded from:

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.blw

          Thanks for the prompt and helpful response.

Regards

          Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 00:52
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

          I think the problem may have started with the way the Race 5 redress was scored for Hal Andrews. What was the finding of the protest committee in respect to Hal Andrews score in race 5? Did they decide to adjust the other boats scores? If not Rule A6.2 states that *              "If the protest decides to give redress by adjusting a boat's score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides otherwise." *               Therefore I would have expected to see the following result for race five:

Rank

Skipper

Place

Nett

Notes

1

Tim Jeffries

1

1.0

2

Hal Andrews

RDG

2.0

2

Tony Norwell

2

2.0

3

Toby Denham

3

3.0

4

Brian Harrison

4

4.0

5

Richard Senior

5

5.0

7

Rebecca Scott

DNF

13.0

7

Nick Fossey

DNF

13.0

7

Dan Groves

DNF

13.0

10

Steve Wilson

DNC

14.0

10

Lucy Preston

DNC

14.0

10

Louise Weight

DNC

14.0

10

Frances

DNC

14.0

          Without being able to see the .blw file it is difficult to see why Sailwave is calculating the results in this manner.

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 3:22 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Using Version 1.5 Build 5

          Our series finished today with close competition between the two leaders. I
          was very much looking forward to wowing them by producing results as soon as
          the race finished. Nothing complicated about it. One design class so just
          enter the positions for the last race and rescore for the series results.

          Before todays race Tim was in the lead with 16 points. In the last race he
          scored 1 point for first place.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.bak.htm

          But today he did poorly and strangely so did the runner up. What I do not
          understand is why, after re-scoring the series, Tim has received 1.5 points
          for the last event. Why would this have changed.

          Here is the score after todays race, and race5 has clearly changed the score

for the winner.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.htm

Regards
Terry



---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - [www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com)
Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.35/2034 - Release Date: 04/01/09 06:06:00

has notified the sender that this message has been received.

mtownsend · 8 April 2009 03:48

Tim and Hal are shown as being tied for 1st place in race 5. Therefore they split the points for 1st and 2nd; 1.5 points each.

Hal is given redress of 2 points this however does not change the places of other boats, so Tim still receives 1.5 points for the tied 1st place.

You need change Hals place to 2nd

···

From: Harvey, John

Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:26 AM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

No I still don’t understand

I understand of course that DNC changes but why does that affect the scoring of 1,2 in R5?

If you take the series with R6 added then Tim is scored 1.5 points.

If you delete Mark who was a new sailer in R6 then Tim is scored as 1 point.

I dont understand why adding that 1 sailor changes the points for Tim.

John

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe DE TROY
Sent: 07 April 2009 10:01
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Adding another competitor in R6 affects the scores for codes, i.e. you score DNF as n and DNC as n+1, so after R5, DNF and associated codes are scored 14 and DNC and associated are scored as 15, but after R6, all previous races are also rescored and DNF becomes 15, DNC becomes 16. As many competitors have more codes than discardable, all, except some at the top of the ranking, are affected and this is not a bug…

Perhaps you didn’t notice the 1.5, it was clearly induced by the re-scoring of Tim as 1 without setting this as a RDG

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Harvey, John

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:50 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

I'm not sure (but i could be missing somethin)

With his R6 added it scores 1.5 for 1st place in R5.

I just had a quick play again and this seems to be because an extra person gets added to the results in R6 and somehow that alters the scoring for R5.

Why should adding the 15th competitor in race 6 change the points scored in R5?

This is in Sw 2 B3. Link to series with 6 races

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries6.blw

John

From: sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe DE TROY
Sent: 06 April 2009 10:59
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Colin,

  The bug does not appear in 1.92 built 12 and 2.03

  This was due to a wrong setting of the ranks and codes...

  H finished first and was later dsq, further rdg 2nd whilr T finished 2 but was re-ranked 1.

  As SW 1.57 scored ties on ranks, regardless of further DSQ, T was then scored 1.5 as 2 1st were found, other competitors not re-ranked: 3, 4, 5...

  With SW 1.95 and subsequent,        the scores are correct.

  The scorer should have let ranks 1 to H and 2 to T, then T rdg 1 and H pen 2...

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:41 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

    hi all - not followed this thread in detail yet - is there stuff i need to do (bugs to fix) or was it resolved...?

cj

Terry wrote:

      Hi Mark,

      Thank you very much for your very interesting and complete response. I did take your previous email back to the Dinghy Captain and it was decided to stick to the original score and not make any further changes now as results have already been announced.

      I was also informed that the decision was in fact to Penalise Hal in Race 5 by awarding him a time penalty (for not taking the penalty turn) and the time penalty would have been enough to place Hal second. As I was not scoring SW with elapsed times and thought it would be good to reflect an alteration by showing RDG (perhaps as you point out, this should have been SCP)

      Anyhow, I read your posting with great interest and feel I now know a lot more about scoring. I will also pass your comments on to those involved.

      Thanks again for your time and interest

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 01 April 2009 13:49
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

      As the scorer send this one back to the protest committee and request they clarify their scoring instructions.

      It seems the result the protest committee wants is 1st Tim, 2nd Hal. The result on the water was 1st Hal, 2nd Tim. You need to know which rules they are using to get to the desired result so that the results can have the correct scoring codes.

      Request clarification of the following; what are the facts found, what rules apply, which boats scores should be adjusted, and which rule is being used to adjust each score. Specifically how did the protest committee find in respect to the following rules?

        Rule 64.1(a) requires that if Hal was found to have broken a rule he should be disqualified, unless some other penalty applies. I don't see any other penalty applying?

        Under which part of Rule 62 are they granting redress to Hal? If anyone the redress should be to Tim? Although I don't see how they can give redress to anyone given the described situation.

        Under 64.2 they can "make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected", however there are more boats affected than just Hal and Tim. What about Rebecca, who as a result of the protest and the granted redress will no longer win the Winter Series, was this considered?
   If they want the result that you have expressed, then they should have issued scoring instructions along the following lines:

        Redress is granted under Rule 64.1(?), the following scoring adjustments shall be made under Rule 64.2.

          Tim shall be granted redress and receive points for 1st place. Score = RDG 1.0

          Hal shall not be disqualified and shall instead receive a scoring penalty and receive one additional point for a total of two points. Score = SCP 2.0

          All other boats scores shall remain the same.
    Given the facts I don't see how a Protest Committee can grant redress under 64.1, but that is not the scorers problem, that is what the appeals process is in place to handle!

      And once they make their mind up it will take you 30 seconds to score in SailWave thanks to Colin...

      I have listed the rules below for reference.

** 44.3 Scoring Penalty**

      (a) A boat takes a Scoring Penalty by displaying a yellow flag at the first reasonable opportunity after the incident.

** 62 REDRESS**

62.1 A request for redress or a protest committees decision to consider redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boats score in a race or series has, through no fault of her own, been made significantly worse by

      (a) an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest committee or organizing authority, but not by a protest committee decision when the boat was a *party*           to the hearing;

      (b) injury or physical damage because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2 or of a vessel not *racing* that was required to keep clear;

      (c) giving help (except to herself or her crew) in compliance with rule 1.1; or

      (d) a boat against which a penalty has been imposed under rule 2 or disciplinary action has been taken under rule 69.1(b).

** 64 DECISIONS**

** 64.1 Penalties and Exoneration**

      (a) When the protest committee decides that a boat that is a *party*           to a protest hearing has broken a *rule*          , it shall disqualify her unless some other penalty applies. A penalty shall be imposed whether or not the applicable *rule*           was mentioned in the *protest*.

** 64.2 Decisions on Redress**

      When the protest committee decides that a boat is entitled to redress under rule 62, it shall make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected, whether or not they asked for redress. This may be to adjust the scoring (see rule A10 for some examples) or finishing times of boats, to *          abandon*           the race, to let the results stand or to make some other arrangement. When in doubt about the facts or probable results of any arrangement for the race or series, especially before *          abandoning*           the race, the protest committee shall take evidence from appropriate sources.

** A6 CHANGES IN PLACES AND SCORES OF OTHER BOATS**

A6.2 If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boats score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides otherwise.

** A10 GUIDANCE ON REDRESS**

      If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boats score for a race, it is advised to consider scoring her

      (a) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races in the series except the race in question;

      (b) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races before the race in question; or

      (c) points based on the position of the boat in the race at the time of the incident that justified redress.

From:
Terry

Sent:
Monday, March 30, 2009 11:56 PM

To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

      This is an interesting twist as now it has a different Series Winner as a tiebreaker.

      If Hal is scored 1<sup>st</sup> but receives a one point penalty, and Tim remains second, who receives the trophy for R5?

       I believe the point of the protest was for Tim to receive the crucial 1 point instead of 2 for the series. I also believe the 1<sup>st</sup> place was awarded to Tim on the day of the race.

      Any thoughts?

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 31 March 2009 04:58
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

      I am not sure that the protest committee can uphold the protest and give redress, but that is a different problem...

      The reason for the 1.5 is because you have two boats tied for first, so they split the points for 1st and 2nd.

      If the protest committee's decision was to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point penalty.

      Then shouldn't Hal be scored 1st plus a 1 point scoring penalty and Tim should remain 2nd.

GYC Dinghy Winter Series 08/09

Greenwich Yacht Club

Results as of 20:57 on March 30, 2009

Overall
            Sailed:6, Discards:1, To count:5, Ratings:PY, Entries:15, Scoring system:Appendix A

Rank

Skipper

R1

R2

R3

R4

R5

R6

Total

Nett

Notes

1st

Rebecca Scott

1.0

5.0

3.0

(15.0 DNF)

7.0

32.0

17.0

2nd

Tim Jeffries

2.0

7.0

4.0

2.0

(8.0)

25.0

17.0

3rd

Nick Fossey

(16.0 DNC)

3.0

1.0

15.0 DNF

1.0

39.0

23.0

4th

Steve Wilson

3.0

(16.0 DNC)

4.0

2.0

16.0 DNC

3.0

44.0

28.0

5th

Brian Harrison

(16.0 DNC)

4.0

6.0

16.0 DNC

5.0

2.0

49.0

33.0

6th

Tony Norwell

5.0

(16.0 DNC)

2.0

16.0 DNC

3.0

16.0 DNC

58.0

42.0

7th

Dan Groves

7.0

(16.0 DNC)

10.0 OOD

6.0

15.0 DNF

6.0

60.0

44.0

8th

Lucy Preston

(16.0 DNC)

5.0

16.0 DNC

7.0

16.0 DNC

5.0

65.0

49.0

9th

Toby Denham

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

1.0

16.0 DNC

4.0

16.0 DNC

69.0

53.0

10th

Richard Senior

4.0

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

5.0

16.0 DNC

73.0

57.0

11th

Simon Powell

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

8.0

16.0 DNC

6.0

16.0 DNC

78.0

62.0

12th

Hal Andrews

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

2.0 SCP+1

16.0 DNC

82.0

66.0

13th

Mark

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

4.0

84.0

68.0

14th

Louise Weight

6.0

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

86.0

70.0

15th

Frances

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

15.0 DNS

16.0 DNC

95.0

79.0

      Sailwave Scoring Software 2.00 build 3

www.sailwave.com

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:41 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

      Thank you for all the great responses, slowly starting to make a bit of sense of it all now.

      Hal finished first in race 5 and Tim finished second. The race was scored and entered as such. Then shortly after the boats came off the water the OOD was informed of the protest and a protest committee was called. The decided to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point penalty to effectively put him into second place and Tim into first place.

      Now as Sailwave user, I merely followed the OOD instructions updated Hals, score to RDG and entered the points to two. I can not recall now as this was some time ago, but I guess I must have changed Tim to 1st place to effectively show the results correctly.

      From what is described, I should not have done it in this way. In my defence I would say it seemed the logical way to do it at the time, it seemed to work as it was intended. It was only when race 6 was entered that the confusion came about. Not sure we how such a situation can be avoided for other novice users in the future.

      I have uploaded the results with race 6 as I had it before (as somebody asked for this)

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries6.blw

      I have now changed Hals score to 15th for race 5 with RDG and rescored which provided the results as I expected. (Although I was not aware that 3rd place would become second and not sure this is what the race committee wanted. But alas' the final standings stay the same and I will know what to do next time round. :)

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 14:53
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

      The file shows that you had a tie on the water for first place between Hal and Tim, is that correct?

      Hal was then given redress, scoring code RDG, for 2nd place.

      I don't see a copy of the file with 6 races scored, do you have that as well?

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

      You might be on to something here, but then I am still confused as to why the score became 1.5 even if it was because of the redress.

      I was also wondering whether it had anything to do with the new entry (Mark) in race 6 (or perhaps a combination of this and the Redress)

      R5 Tim hailed the protest to Hal for touching a mark and thought he was heard. Hal was not aware of it and did not take a penalty turn.

      No other source confirmed the mark being touched. The Protest committee decided to give redress instead of disqualify Hal.

      In Sailwave I changed Hals results to RDG and the points to 2 which produced what was required by committee. (It did however change Tims results to 1)

      As we can see, the next race altered Tims results to 1.5

      The blw file can be downloaded from:

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.blw

      Thanks for the prompt and helpful response.

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 00:52
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

      I think the problem may have started with the way the Race 5 redress was scored for Hal Andrews. What was the finding of the protest committee in respect to Hal Andrews score in race 5? Did they decide to adjust the other boats scores? If not Rule A6.2 states that *          "If the protest decides to give redress by adjusting a boat's score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides otherwise." *           Therefore I would have expected to see the following result for race five:

Rank

Skipper

Place

Nett

Notes

1

Tim Jeffries

1

1.0

2

Hal Andrews

RDG

2.0

2

Tony Norwell

2

2.0

3

Toby Denham

3

3.0

4

Brian Harrison

4

4.0

5

Richard Senior

5

5.0

7

Rebecca Scott

DNF

13.0

7

Nick Fossey

DNF

13.0

7

Dan Groves

DNF

13.0

10

Steve Wilson

DNC

14.0

10

Lucy Preston

DNC

14.0

10

Louise Weight

DNC

14.0

10

Frances

DNC

14.0

      Without being able to see the .blw file it is difficult to see why Sailwave is calculating the results in this manner.

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 3:22 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Using Version 1.5 Build 5

      Our series finished today with close competition between the two leaders. I
      was very much looking forward to wowing them by producing results as soon as
      the race finished. Nothing complicated about it. One design class so just
      enter the positions for the last race and rescore for the series results.

      Before todays race Tim was in the lead with 16 points. In the last race he
      scored 1 point for first place.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.bak.htm

      But today he did poorly and strangely so did the runner up. What I do not
      understand is why, after re-scoring the series, Tim has received 1.5 points
      for the last event. Why would this have changed.

      Here is the score after todays race, and race5 has clearly changed the score

for the winner.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.htm

Regards
Terry



---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - [www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com)
Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.35/2034 - Release Date: 04/01/09 06:06:00

Philippe_DE_TROY · 8 April 2009 07:52

Amend to “A is hit by a committee boat, the helmsman id injured but decides to continue racing”

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Gordon Davies

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 1:59 PM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

On what grounds does A get redress? There is no damage or injury (merely a capsize) so 62.1b does not apply. The only grounds would be that F has a penalty imposed for a rule 2 infringement - unlikely in the case of a simple port and starboard, or even a rule 69 hearing goes against her.

Gordon

----- Original Message -----

From:
Philippe DE TROY

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:41 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

John,

When you delete R6 from the regatta, and re-score, Tim is always ranked with 1.5.

1.5 shows a tie on the water and this was not the case.

Change his rank to 2 as on the water and give him RDG 1 and everything is repaired

Anyway the case is interesting, I'm asking an expert IJ about it, and in case of doubt, I will request an interpretation by ISAF, can take months for an answer.

There is a problem indeed.

Example (let's assume it's in 49er, so the case is realistic).

Last downwind leg for boat A, downwind on Stbd tack, 1st /15.  Collision course with F, 6th, closehauled on port tack.  A has to alter the course to avoid imminent collision and capsizes.  You know 49er, it takes time to get the boat upright and sailing again, so B, C, D and E pass A, and finish 1, 2, 3 and 4, except that A comes back and half of the committe see A as 4th, the other half as 5th, and they decide to rank both as 4, should be scored 4.5.

Bad luck, F ties also with G for 6th place, both scored 6.5

A protests F and requests for redress.  And wins.

Decision is A RDG 1 (was the average place in previous races) and F PEN 20% (3 places).

Questions/solutions

A scored 1.0 RDG

B scored 1.0

E scored 4.5 or 4.0 ???

G scored 6.5 or 6.0 ???
  F scored for 6+3 = 9.0 PEN

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Harvey, John

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:26 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

No I still don’t understand

  I understand of course that DNC changes but why does that affect the scoring of 1,2 in R5?

  If you take the series with R6 added then Tim is scored 1.5 points.

  If you delete Mark who was a new sailer in R6 then Tim is scored as 1 point.

  I dont understand why adding that 1 sailor changes the points for Tim.

John

From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Philippe DE TROY
Sent: 07 April 2009 10:01
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

    Adding another competitor in R6 affects the scores for codes, i.e. you score DNF as n and DNC as n+1, so after R5, DNF and associated codes are scored 14 and DNC and associated are scored as 15, but after R6, all previous races are also rescored and DNF becomes 15, DNC becomes 16.  As many competitors have more codes than discardable, all, except some at the top of the ranking, are affected and this is not a bug...

    Perhaps you didn't notice the 1.5, it was clearly induced by the re-scoring of Tim as 1 without setting this as a RDG

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Harvey, John

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:50 AM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

      I'm not sure (but i could be missing somethin)

      With his R6 added it scores 1.5 for 1st place in R5.

      I just had a quick play again and this seems to be because an extra person gets added to the results in R6 and somehow that alters the scoring for R5.

      Why should adding the 15th competitor in race 6 change the points scored in R5?

      This is in Sw 2 B3. Link to series with 6 races

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries6.blw

John

From: sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] ** On Behalf Of** Philippe DE TROY
Sent: 06 April 2009 10:59
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Colin,

        The bug does not appear in 1.92 built 12 and 2.03

        This was due to a wrong setting of the ranks and codes...

        H finished first and was later dsq, further rdg 2nd whilr T finished 2 but was re-ranked 1.

        As SW 1.57 scored ties on ranks, regardless of further DSQ, T was then scored 1.5 as 2 1st were found, other competitors not re-ranked: 3, 4, 5...

        With SW 1.95 and subsequent,              the scores are correct.

        The scorer should have let ranks 1 to H and 2 to T, then T rdg 1 and H pen 2...

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:41 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

          hi all - not followed this thread in detail yet - is there stuff i need to do (bugs to fix) or was it resolved...?

cj

Terry wrote:

            Hi Mark,

            Thank you very much for your very interesting and complete response. I did take your previous email back to the Dinghy Captain and it was decided to stick to the original score and not make any further changes now as results have already been announced.

            I was also informed that the decision was in fact to Penalise Hal in Race 5 by awarding him a time penalty (for not taking the penalty turn) and the time penalty would have been enough to place Hal second. As I was not scoring SW with elapsed times and thought it would be good to reflect an alteration by showing RDG (perhaps as you point out, this should have been SCP)

            Anyhow, I read your posting with great interest and feel I now know a lot more about scoring. I will also pass your comments on to those involved.

            Thanks again for your time and interest

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 01 April 2009 13:49
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

            As the scorer send this one back to the protest committee and request they clarify their scoring instructions.

            It seems the result the protest committee wants is 1st Tim, 2nd Hal. The result on the water was 1st Hal, 2nd Tim. You need to know which rules they are using to get to the desired result so that the results can have the correct scoring codes.

            Request clarification of the following; what are the facts found, what rules apply, which boats scores should be adjusted, and which rule is being used to adjust each score. Specifically how did the protest committee find in respect to the following rules?

              Rule 64.1(a) requires that if Hal was found to have broken a rule he should be disqualified, unless some other penalty applies. I don't see any other penalty applying?

              Under which part of Rule 62 are they granting redress to Hal? If anyone the redress should be to Tim? Although I don't see how they can give redress to anyone given the described situation.

              Under 64.2 they can "make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected", however there are more boats affected than just Hal and Tim. What about Rebecca, who as a result of the protest and the granted redress will no longer win the Winter Series, was this considered?
         If they want the result that you have expressed, then they should have issued scoring instructions along the following lines:

              Redress is granted under Rule 64.1(?), the following scoring adjustments shall be made under Rule 64.2.

                Tim shall be granted redress and receive points for 1st place. Score = RDG 1.0

                Hal shall not be disqualified and shall instead receive a scoring penalty and receive one additional point for a total of two points. Score = SCP 2.0

                All other boats scores shall remain the same.
          Given the facts I don't see how a Protest Committee can grant redress under 64.1, but that is not the scorers problem, that is what the appeals process is in place to handle!

            And once they make their mind up it will take you 30 seconds to score in SailWave thanks to Colin...

            I have listed the rules below for reference.

** 44.3 Scoring Penalty**

            (a) A boat takes a Scoring Penalty by displaying a yellow flag at the first reasonable opportunity after the incident.

** 62 REDRESS**

** 62.1** A request for redress or a protest committees decision to consider redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boats score in a race or series has, through no fault of her own, been made significantly worse by

            (a) an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest committee or organizing authority, but not by a protest committee decision when the boat was a *party* to the hearing;

            (b) injury or physical damage because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2 or of a vessel not *racing*                 that was required to keep clear;

            (c) giving help (except to herself or her crew) in compliance with rule 1.1; or

            (d) a boat against which a penalty has been imposed under rule 2 or disciplinary action has been taken under rule 69.1(b).

** 64 DECISIONS**

** 64.1 Penalties and Exoneration**

            (a) When the protest committee decides that a boat that is a *party*                 to a protest hearing has broken a *rule*                , it shall disqualify her unless some other penalty applies. A penalty shall be imposed whether or not the applicable *rule*                 was mentioned in the *protest*.

** 64.2 Decisions on Redress**

            When the protest committee decides that a boat is entitled to redress under rule 62, it shall make as fair an arrangement as possible for all boats affected, whether or not they asked for redress. This may be to adjust the scoring (see rule A10 for some examples) or finishing times of boats, to *abandon*                 the race, to let the results stand or to make some other arrangement. When in doubt about the facts or probable results of any arrangement for the race or series, especially before *abandoning*                 the race, the protest committee shall take evidence from appropriate sources.

** A6 CHANGES IN PLACES AND SCORES OF OTHER BOATS**

A6.2 If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boats score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides otherwise.

** A10 GUIDANCE ON REDRESS**

            If the protest committee decides to give redress by adjusting a boats score for a race, it is advised to consider scoring her

            (a) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races in the series except the race in question;

            (b) points equal to the average, to the nearest tenth of a point (0.05 to be rounded upward), of her points in all the races before the race in question; or

            (c) points based on the position of the boat in the race at the time of the incident that justified redress.

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

            This is an interesting twist as now it has a different Series Winner as a tiebreaker.

            If Hal is scored 1<sup>st</sup> but receives a one point penalty, and Tim remains second, who receives the trophy for R5?

             I believe the point of the protest was for Tim to receive the crucial 1 point instead of 2 for the series. I also believe the 1<sup>st</sup> place was awarded to Tim on the day of the race.

            Any thoughts?

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 31 March 2009 04:58
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

            I am not sure that the protest committee can uphold the protest and give redress, but that is a different problem...

            The reason for the 1.5 is because you have two boats tied for first, so they split the points for 1st and 2nd.

            If the protest committee's decision was to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point penalty.

            Then shouldn't Hal be scored 1st plus a 1 point scoring penalty and Tim should remain 2nd.

GYC Dinghy Winter Series 08/09

Greenwich Yacht Club

Results as of 20:57 on March 30, 2009

Overall
                  Sailed:6, Discards:1, To count:5, Ratings:PY, Entries:15, Scoring system:Appendix A

Rank

Skipper

R1

R2

R3

R4

R5

R6

Total

Nett

Notes

1st

Rebecca Scott

1.0

5.0

3.0

(15.0 DNF)

7.0

32.0

17.0

2nd

Tim Jeffries

2.0

7.0

4.0

2.0

(8.0)

25.0

17.0

3rd

Nick Fossey

(16.0 DNC)

3.0

1.0

15.0 DNF

1.0

39.0

23.0

4th

Steve Wilson

3.0

(16.0 DNC)

4.0

2.0

16.0 DNC

3.0

44.0

28.0

5th

Brian Harrison

(16.0 DNC)

4.0

6.0

16.0 DNC

5.0

2.0

49.0

33.0

6th

Tony Norwell

5.0

(16.0 DNC)

2.0

16.0 DNC

3.0

16.0 DNC

58.0

42.0

7th

Dan Groves

7.0

(16.0 DNC)

10.0 OOD

6.0

15.0 DNF

6.0

60.0

44.0

8th

Lucy Preston

(16.0 DNC)

5.0

16.0 DNC

7.0

16.0 DNC

5.0

65.0

49.0

9th

Toby Denham

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

1.0

16.0 DNC

4.0

16.0 DNC

69.0

53.0

10th

Richard Senior

4.0

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

5.0

16.0 DNC

73.0

57.0

11th

Simon Powell

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

8.0

16.0 DNC

6.0

16.0 DNC

78.0

62.0

12th

Hal Andrews

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

2.0 SCP+1

16.0 DNC

82.0

66.0

13th

Mark

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

4.0

84.0

68.0

14th

Louise Weight

6.0

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

86.0

70.0

15th

Frances

(16.0 DNC)

16.0 DNC

15.0 DNS

16.0 DNC

95.0

79.0

            Sailwave Scoring Software 2.00 build 3

www.sailwave.com

From: Terry

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:41 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

            Thank you for all the great responses, slowly starting to make a bit of sense of it all now.

            Hal finished first in race 5 and Tim finished second. The race was scored and entered as such. Then shortly after the boats came off the water the OOD was informed of the protest and a protest committee was called. The decided to uphold the protest and give redress by giving Hal a 1 point penalty to effectively put him into second place and Tim into first place.

            Now as Sailwave user, I merely followed the OOD instructions updated Hals, score to RDG and entered the points to two. I can not recall now as this was some time ago, but I guess I must have changed Tim to 1st place to effectively show the results correctly.

            From what is described, I should not have done it in this way. In my defence I would say it seemed the logical way to do it at the time, it seemed to work as it was intended. It was only when race 6 was entered that the confusion came about. Not sure we how such a situation can be avoided for other novice users in the future.

            I have uploaded the results with race 6 as I had it before (as somebody asked for this)

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries6.blw

            I have now changed Hals score to 15th for race 5 with RDG and rescored which provided the results as I expected. (Although I was not aware that 3rd place would become second and not sure this is what the race committee wanted. But alas' the final standings stay the same and I will know what to do next time round. :)

Regards

Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 14:53
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

            The file shows that you had a tie on the water for first place between Hal and Tim, is that correct?

            Hal was then given redress, scoring code RDG, for 2nd place.

            I don't see a copy of the file with 6 races scored, do you have that as well?

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:56 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

            You might be on to something here, but then I am still confused as to why the score became 1.5 even if it was because of the redress.

            I was also wondering whether it had anything to do with the new entry (Mark) in race 6 (or perhaps a combination of this and the Redress)

            R5 Tim hailed the protest to Hal for touching a mark and thought he was heard. Hal was not aware of it and did not take a penalty turn.

            No other source confirmed the mark being touched. The Protest committee decided to give redress instead of disqualify Hal.

            In Sailwave I changed Hals results to RDG and the points to 2 which produced what was required by committee. (It did however change Tims results to 1)

            As we can see, the next race altered Tims results to 1.5

            The blw file can be downloaded from:

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.blw

            Thanks for the prompt and helpful response.

Regards

            Terry

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of S. Mark Townsend
Sent: 30 March 2009 00:52
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

            I think the problem may have started with the way the Race 5 redress was scored for Hal Andrews. What was the finding of the protest committee in respect to Hal Andrews score in race 5? Did they decide to adjust the other boats scores? If not Rule A6.2 states that *                "If the protest decides to give redress by adjusting a boat's score, the scores of other boats shall not be changed unless the protest committee decides otherwise." *                 Therefore I would have expected to see the following result for race five:

Rank

Skipper

Place

Nett

Notes

1

Tim Jeffries

1

1.0

2

Hal Andrews

RDG

2.0

2

Tony Norwell

2

2.0

3

Toby Denham

3

3.0

4

Brian Harrison

4

4.0

5

Richard Senior

5

5.0

7

Rebecca Scott

DNF

13.0

7

Nick Fossey

DNF

13.0

7

Dan Groves

DNF

13.0

10

Steve Wilson

DNC

14.0

10

Lucy Preston

DNC

14.0

10

Louise Weight

DNC

14.0

10

Frances

DNC

14.0

            Without being able to see the .blw file it is difficult to see why Sailwave is calculating the results in this manner.

From: Terry

Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 3:22 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [sailwave] Points change for 1st place

Using Version 1.5 Build 5

            Our series finished today with close competition between the two leaders. I
            was very much looking forward to wowing them by producing results as soon as
            the race finished. Nothing complicated about it. One design class so just
            enter the positions for the last race and rescore for the series results.

            Before todays race Tim was in the lead with 16 points. In the last race he

scored 1 point for first place.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.bak.htm

            But today he did poorly and strangely so did the runner up. What I do not
            understand is why, after re-scoring the series, Tim has received 1.5 points
            for the last event. Why would this have changed.

            Here is the score after todays race, and race5 has clearly changed the score
            for the winner.

http://www.greenwichyachtclub.co.uk/racing/0809dinghywinterseries.htm

Regards
Terry



---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - [www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com)
Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.35/2034 - Release Date: 04/01/09 06:06:00

has notified the sender that this message has been received.