Hi: I'm running a regatta with Qualification and Finals races. I've set Appendix LE discards to 0,1 and also checked Do not recalculate qualifying race points when at least one finals race has been sailed.
After one Finals race a discard can appear in the first Finals race results. So a boat's first discard can move from the qualifying series to the first final race.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I would have imagined that in App LE the qualification series should be fixed after moving to the Finals. So a boat's discard in qualifying remains fixed. After the first Final race with 0,1 set there can be a discard in the Finals and this can move within the Finals series dependent upon the boat's results.
During qualifying the boats are in Blue, Red, Yellow Flights and reflighted each day. For the Finals they are reflighted into Gold, Silver, Bronze and not reflighted during the Finals series.
On the App LE page there is a suggestion that Qualification and Finals be run as two separate series. Is this to get around the problem of the movable discards? It is most inconvenient and extra work to run the event as two series. Is there any way around the problem when run as a single series? Why does Sailwave not freeze the qualifying series when moving to the Finals when Do not recalc is checked?
Thanks, Donald
Hi Donald
The issue is not with Sailwave but appendix LE Addendum C where paragraph 20.6 states
When fewer than _____ [opening-series] races have been completed
The opening statement for AddC states that an ‘opening series’ is both the Qualifying & Finals
You have spotted a major weakness in AddC whereby a boat could have a score discarded from the Qualifying races but then all discards being discarded from the Finals series instead.
v 2006 of Appendix had this weakness & I was hoping that it would have been picked it up in the latest release but sadly not!
If you want to apply common sense, then you will have to insert a paragraph in the SIs along the lines of
However, no more than one score may be excluded from the final series
If you are wondering where I got this wording from, it was in AddC of the 2005 version but was removed the following year
I cannot think why it was removed, perhaps one day someone will explain the logic of this injustice
After AddC 2005 was released, Colin did actually put an option in SW to limit the number of discards in the Finals but I can’t find it now so I presume that it has been taken out
Perhaps one day we might be able to persuade our MNAs to get this changed
Regards
Ralph
···
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of donald.wyllie
Sent: 15 March 2009 14:49
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Discards
Hi: I’m running a regatta with Qualification and Finals races. I’ve set Appendix LE discards to 0,1 and also checked Do not recalculate qualifying race points when at least one finals race has been sailed.
After one Finals race a discard can appear in the first Finals race results. So a boat’s first discard can move from the qualifying series to the first final race.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding but I would have imagined that in App LE the qualification series should be fixed after moving to the Finals. So a boat’s discard in qualifying remains fixed. After the first Final race with 0,1 set there can be a discard in the Finals and this can move within the Finals series dependent upon the boat’s results.
During qualifying the boats are in Blue, Red, Yellow Flights and reflighted each day. For the Finals they are reflighted into Gold, Silver, Bronze and not reflighted during the Finals series.
On the App LE page there is a suggestion that Qualification and Finals be run as two separate series. Is this to get around the problem of the movable discards? It is most inconvenient and extra work to run the event as two series. Is there any way around the problem when run as a single series? Why does Sailwave not freeze the qualifying series when moving to the Finals when Do not recalc is checked?
Thanks, Donald
1 comment below
···
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 15 March 2009 19:17
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Discards
Hi Donald
The issue is not with Sailwave but appendix LE Addendum C where paragraph 20.6 states
When fewer than _____ [opening-series] races have been completed
The opening statement for AddC states that an ‘opening series’ is both the Qualifying & Finals
You have spotted a major weakness in AddC whereby a boat could have a score discarded from the Qualifying races but then all discards being discarded from the Finals series instead.
v 2006 of Appendix had this weakness & I was hoping that it would have been picked it up in the latest release but sadly not!
If you want to apply common sense, then you will have to insert a paragraph in the SIs along the lines of
However , no more than one score may be excluded from the final series
If you are wondering where I got this wording from, it was in AddC of the 2005 version but was removed the following year
I cannot think why it was removed, perhaps one day someone will explain the logic of this injustice
After AddC 2005 was released, Colin did actually put an option in SW to limit the number of discards in the Finals but I can’t find it now so I presume that it has been taken out
[JH] Under “Scoring System”->App LE Addendum C->“Max number of discards allowed in Finals” which is a list similar to discard list , Toppers added a rule that says at least 2 races from final series must not be discarded.
Perhaps one day we might be able to persuade our MNAs to get this changed
Regards
Ralph
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] ** On Behalf Of** donald.wyllie
Sent: 15 March 2009 14:49
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Discards
Hi: I’m running a regatta with Qualification and Finals races. I’ve set Appendix LE discards to 0,1 and also checked Do not recalculate qualifying race points when at least one finals race has been sailed.
After one Finals race a discard can appear in the first Finals race results. So a boat’s first discard can move from the qualifying series to the first final race.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding but I would have imagined that in App LE the qualification series should be fixed after moving to the Finals. So a boat’s discard in qualifying remains fixed. After the first Final race with 0,1 set there can be a discard in the Finals and this can move within the Finals series dependent upon the boat’s results.
During qualifying the boats are in Blue, Red, Yellow Flights and reflighted each day. For the Finals they are reflighted into Gold, Silver, Bronze and not reflighted during the Finals series.
On the App LE page there is a suggestion that Qualification and Finals be run as two separate series. Is this to get around the problem of the movable discards? It is most inconvenient and extra work to run the event as two series. Is there any way around the problem when run as a single series? Why does Sailwave not freeze the qualifying series when moving to the Finals when Do not recalc is checked?
Thanks, Donald
Hi Ralph: Thank you, that explains a fair bit, but! This question is
not about App LE it is about how Sailwave works. What does the "Do not
recalculate … . check box do? Surely Do not recalculate means Do not
recalculate! I don’t think this is an App LE Addendum C problem.
Is this - discarded from the Qualifying races but then
all discards being discarded from the Finals series instead. -
not taken care of by setting the discards in the App LE page in Series
scoring to 0,1?
All I want Sailwave to do is stop recalculating the first set of races
when you move to the second set of races or Finals. Now, App LE appears
to allow the recalculation of discards but Sailwave seems to
allow you to stop this.
So, I ask again, what does the Do not recalc check box do? Seemingly
nothing at the moment.
The simple questions are:
-
What does the “Do not recalculate” check box actually do?
-
What does setting Finals discards to 0,1 actually do?
These two things do not appear to work in Sailwave.
Thanks, Donald
Ralph Tingle wrote:
···
mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups. com]
On Behalf Of donald.wyllie
Sent: 15 March 2009 14:49
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Discards
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Donald Wyllie
Sent: 15 March 2009 20:50
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Discards
Hi Ralph: Thank you, that explains a fair bit, but! This question is not about App LE it is about how Sailwave works. What does the "Do not recalculate … . check box do? Surely Do not recalculate means Do not recalculate! I don’t think this is an App LE Addendum C problem.
Is this - discarded from the Qualifying races but then all discards being discarded from the Finals series instead. - not taken care of by setting the discards in the App LE page in Series scoring to 0,1?
All I want Sailwave to do is stop recalculating the first set of races when you move to the second set of races or Finals. Now, App LE appears to allow the recalculation of discards but Sailwave seems to allow you to stop this.
So, I ask again, what does the Do not recalc check box do? Seemingly nothing at the moment.
The simple questions are:
What does the “Do not recalculate” check box actually do?
[JH] Means do not recalculate the race points. Things like DNC can change between qualifier & final so full recalculation could change the points awarded for DNC depending on which fleet you end up in. This does of course depend on the SI’s as to how DNC’s etc should be scoredWhat does setting Finals discards to 0,1 actually do?
[JH] That would say that after 1 race of the final series none of the discards can come from the final series. And after 2 races of the final series 1 of the discards can be applied to it.
The discard profile is taken as applying to the whole series depending on the combined number of races but the discards that can be applied to the final series is restricted as per your second question.
These two things do not appear to work in Sailwave.
Thanks, DonaldRalph Tingle wrote:
Hi Donald
The issue is not with Sailwave but appendix LE Addendum C where paragraph 20.6 states
When fewer than _____ [opening-series] races have been completed
The opening statement for AddC states that an 'opening series' is both the Qualifying & Finals
You have spotted a major weakness in AddC whereby a boat could have a score discarded from the Qualifying races but then all discards being discarded from the Finals series instead.
v 2006 of Appendix had this weakness & I was hoping that it would have been picked it up in the latest release but sadly not!
If you want to apply common sense, then you will have to insert a paragraph in the SIs along the lines of
However , no more than one score may be excluded from the final series
If you are wondering where I got this wording from, it was in AddC of the 2005 version but was removed the following year
I cannot think why it was removed, perhaps one day someone will explain the logic of this injustice
After AddC 2005 was released, Colin did actually put an option in SW to limit the number of discards in the Finals but I can't find it now so I presume that it has been taken out
Perhaps one day we might be able to persuade our MNAs to get this changed
Regards
Ralph
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] ** On Behalf Of** donald.wyllie
Sent: 15 March 2009 14:49
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] Discards
Hi: I'm running a regatta with Qualification and Finals races. I've set Appendix LE discards to 0,1 and also checked Do not recalculate qualifying race points when at least one finals race has been sailed. After one Finals race a discard can appear in the first Finals race results. So a boat's first discard can move from the qualifying series to the first final race. Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I would have imagined that in App LE the qualification series should be fixed after moving to the Finals. So a boat's discard in qualifying remains fixed. After the first Final race with 0,1 set there can be a discard in the Finals and this can move within the Finals series dependent upon the boat's results. During qualifying the boats are in Blue, Red, Yellow Flights and reflighted each day. For the Finals they are reflighted into Gold, Silver, Bronze and not reflighted during the Finals series. On the App LE page there is a suggestion that Qualification and Finals be run as two separate series. Is this to get around the problem of the movable discards? It is most inconvenient and extra work to run the event as two series. Is there any way around the problem when run as a single series? Why does Sailwave not freeze the qualifying series when moving to the Finals when Do not recalc is checked?Thanks, Donald
The do not recaluclate check box is there so that
if the fleet sizes change significantly in the finals - e.g. two fleets
instead of 3 - you can change the way DNF etc work and not affect the Q
races (bit of a kludge). However it does not affect the assignment
of discards. Add C discards - ‘float’ over Q and F with some
limitation in how the F discards are be supplied. Lots of classes dont
like this because it’s confusing (e.g. 49er and 29er) - so they change
the SIs to specify that the result at the end of Q and ‘fed into’ F as
a constant number of points - then F is scored as a normal series - you
can do this using the Merge facility - there is a carried forward field
in the competitor record for the purpose - so it depends on your SIs -
if they are standard Add C then discards can move between Q and F…
Does that make sense…?
What do you actually need to make it work for you…?
NB: If the boats are not using the same finish line - I would split
into 3 files…
Colin
donald.wyllie wrote:
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Thank you Colin for the clarification. So we really need a further
check box entitled “Change nout in the Qualification series after
entering the Finals.”
We, too, need the Q results to come over to Finals in a fixed format,
no floating discards. Like the 49ers & 29ers, Lasers don’t want
floating discards. All boats are using the same course.
Ian and I will discuss our various needs and get back to you.
Thanks Donald
Colin Jenkins wrote:
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as i recall how the finals discards work in
sailwave it allows you to say ‘at least N must be from F’ or ‘at most N
but be from F’ - if I added a 3rd option ‘N must be from F’ it would by
implication force the Q discards to stay put…
John Harvery alsos says its buggy and I have nto fixed it yet so I can
do that at the same time… But I forget the details now.
NB: the discard profile in a QF series is for the whole series (Q and
F) with the F specification just modifying it - its not two discard
profiles in sequence - the that change would effectively give you
that… I’ve had to implement it like that because of what Add C says
- however in my experience is always causes mass confusion…
When is your event…?
CJ
Donald Wyllie wrote:
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Would it not be easier to have a seperate Q & F profile in this case and apply them seperatly. (I understand it may be harder to implement that way now). But from the UI you could have a tick box somewhere alongside a a discard profile to allow that to be applied to the final series.
I may be wrong but it seems possible that depending on how many races are actually sailed in the qualifying series the discard profiles may have to be altered at the point the Final series starts and that could be a pain, though obviously possible, but the more that can be set up in advance and the less to have to change mid regatta the easier things are.
I’ll take a look for the issues and send you an email tonight.
Thanks
John
···
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Colin Jenkins
Sent: 16 March 2009 13:12
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Discards
as i recall how the finals discards work in sailwave it allows you to say ‘at least N must be from F’ or ‘at most N but be from F’ - if I added a 3rd option ‘N must be from F’ it would by implication force the Q discards to stay put…
John Harvery alsos says its buggy and I have nto fixed it yet so I can do that at the same time… But I forget the details now.
NB: the discard profile in a QF series is for the whole series (Q and F) with the F specification just modifying it - its not two discard profiles in sequence - the that change would effectively give you that… I’ve had to implement it like that because of what Add C says - however in my experience is always causes mass confusion…
When is your event…?
CJ
Donald Wyllie wrote:
Thank you Colin for the clarification. So we really need a further check box entitled "Change nout in the Qualification series after entering the Finals." We, too, need the Q results to come over to Finals in a fixed format, no floating discards. Like the 49ers & 29ers, Lasers don't want floating discards. All boats are using the same course. Ian and I will discuss our various needs and get back to you. Thanks DonaldColin Jenkins wrote:
The do not recaluclate check box is there so that if the fleet sizes change significantly in the finals - e.g. two fleets instead of 3 - you can change the way DNF etc work and not affect the Q races (bit of a kludge). However it does *not* affect the assignment of discards. Add C discards - 'float' over Q and F with some limitation in how the F discards are be supplied. Lots of classes dont like this because it's confusing (e.g. 49er and 29er) - so they change the SIs to specify that the result at the end of Q and 'fed into' F as a constant number of points - then F is scored as a normal series - you can do this using the Merge facility - there is a carried forward field in the competitor record for the purpose - so it depends on your SIs - if they are standard Add C then discards can move between Q and F...Does that make sense…?
What do you actually need to make it work for you...? NB: If the boats are not using the same finish line - I would split into 3 files...Colin
donald.wyllie wrote:
Hi: I'm running a regatta with Qualification and Finals races. I've set Appendix LE discards to 0,1 and also checked Do not recalculate qualifying race points when at least one finals race has been sailed. After one Finals race a discard can appear in the first Finals race results. So a boat's first discard can move from the qualifying series to the first final race. Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I would have imagined that in App LE the qualification series should be fixed after moving to the Finals. So a boat's discard in qualifying remains fixed. After the first Final race with 0,1 set there can be a discard in the Finals and this can move within the Finals series dependent upon the boat's results. During qualifying the boats are in Blue, Red, Yellow Flights and reflighted each day. For the Finals they are reflighted into Gold, Silver, Bronze and not reflighted during the Finals series. On the App LE page there is a suggestion that Qualification and Finals be run as two separate series. Is this to get around the problem of the movable discards? It is most inconvenient and extra work to run the event as two series. Is there any way around the problem when run as a single series? Why does Sailwave not freeze the qualifying series when moving to the Finals when Do not recalc is checked? Thanks, Donald ------------------------------ ------ -!- [http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/](http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/) -!- [http://www.sailing.org/](http://www.sailing.org/) -!- [http://www.sailwave.com/](http://www.sailwave.com/) -!- Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/](http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/) ~ On-Line Sailwave help...http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Thompson's Sailwave User Manual is available from [http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf](http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf) ~ Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to sailwave- digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG please send blank email to sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/](http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/) <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/join](http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/join) (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:sailwave-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: [http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/](http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/)--- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - [www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com) Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.13/2001 - Release Date: 03/14/09 06:54:00
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Hi Colin: Sounds good. Several things the Laser SIs said last year -
haven’t seen this year’s yet - were:
From Laser Standard SIs -
21.3 To determine the final series fleets at the end of the qualifying
series only: If two or more qualifying series have been completed by
all qualifying fleets, a boat’s qualifying series score will be the
total of her race scores excluding her worst score. [one drop in the Qs]
21.4 (a) When from 5 to 9 races have been completed, a boat’s regatta
score will be the total of her race scores excluding her worst score.
21.4 (b) When 10 or more races have been completed, a boat’s regatta
score will be the total of her race scores excluding her two worst
scores. However, no more than one score may be excluded from the final
series and only when 2 or more finals races have been completed.
21.5 For boat with scores from final-series races, rule A8 is changed
such that only final-series scores will be used to break ties with no
scores excluded.
And another problem is:
21.6 If a points scoring penalty for a breach of rule 42 or under the
Arbitration System would result in a score worse that DSQ, the penalty
will be that corresponding to DSQ. The scores of other boats will not
be changed.
So several problems to overcome.
Only one discard from each of qualifying and finals as I read it. So no
floating discards.
One, be able to fix the qualification scores and discards - set
qualification in stone. A button that says Do not change anything to do
with the qualifying. This I suppose would be on the App LE page. If we
don’t do this then the Q discard can float into the Finals. Maybe one
needs a section on the App LE page to allow users to set up
non-standard (ie sensible!) App LE controls.
Two, 21.4 (b) the first finals race cannot be discarded till two or
more races have been run and the total number = 10. I think Sailwave
deals with this by inserting 0,1 in the App LE page, but John maybe
suggests that this doesn’t work properly. The problem at the moment is
that Sailwave moves a Q discard into the finals after one Final race.
A different problem now:
Three, 21.6, can we set up an ARB penalty code that is 30% up to a
maximum = DSQ. I’ve never had to do this so don’t know if this ability
is already built in, we haven’t started playing with that yet. One
difficulty is the bit about “scores of other boats” not being changed.
I frankly do not understand this and it sounds most peculiar. I get a
penalty that drops me below other boats yet I don’t drop, weird!
Anyway I think we are moving forward on all of this.
Thank you very much.
Donald
Colin Jenkins wrote:
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Hi: Forgot to say in previous email that John is right. In the Lasers
there has to be 10 races before a second drop. This may or may not be
in the Finals. Or it could be the third or fourth Finals race before
races total to 10.
But if the scorer has to set this by hand it is not the end of the
world. I’m constructing a detailed checklist for daily use and this
would be one item. “Check number of races less than 10, set discards =
2 at 10 races, sort of thing.”
Donald
Harvey, John wrote:
···
mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups. com]
On Behalf Of Colin Jenkins
Sent: 16 March 2009 13:12
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Discards
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Umm. I interpret the SI’s differenty (Though i’m not looking at the whole SI’s) but from the extract below
21.4 says that the score will be based on discarding the 1 or 2 worst races. It does not say anything about 1 from Q & 1 from F.
21.4b just says that at most 1 can be discarded from the final series
Presumably the intention is to have less than 10 races in the qualifying series.
But if you had 9 Q races & 1 final you would have 2 discards from Q series
When you have 2 final races 1 of them can come from the Final series but you may have 2 in Q or 1 in Q & 1 in final.
My interpretation of these SI’s is that Sailwave does what you want.
John
[JH] I read that differntly. 21.4 It says the final series allocation will be based on Q series with 1 discard. for the purpose of assigning fleets. It does not say this should be used in the regatta scoring
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