Flights and all that

ian5 · 14 August 2005 13:06

Hi all,

I've just finished doing the results for the GP14 Nationals in Poole,
using App LE Addendum C, for which I used Excel. I was hoping to use
sw but I thought it would be cutting it a bit fine to go with the
development version. Anyhow, after the fact I am entering the results
into sw to see if I get the same outcome

On that score, I have a question on the interpretation of the very
last paragraph in Addendum C, namely:

"For boats with scores from final-series races, ties in the regatta
score are broken by final series scores with no race score excluded.
This changes rule A8."

Could you tell me what, if anything sw does if this optional rule is
in force? I haven't found anywhere in V1.82 to select this in a
scoring system.

I thought it meant that A8.1 was modified to include only final series
scores inclusive of discards, but an alternative view is that the
_total_ final series score (including discards) is used to resolve
ties.

Also, the optional clause in the previous App C para, ie [However, no
more than one score may be excluded from the final series and only
when two or more final-series races have been completed.] - can sw
handle that?

And finally! What is the best way to import my existing results into
sw?

Regards
Ian

RalphT · 14 August 2005 13:15

Hi Ian
Martin has identified some bugs in 1.82 re flights & we probably need to wait until Colin returns to
resolve the problems.
I will send you some test files for Martin's event so that you can see how I imported competitors &
race results from Excel.

Regards
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: ian [mailto:yahoo@iws.uk.com]
Sent: 14 August 2005 14:06
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Flights and all that

Hi all,

I've just finished doing the results for the GP14 Nationals in Poole,
using App LE Addendum C, for which I used Excel. I was hoping to use
sw but I thought it would be cutting it a bit fine to go with the
development version. Anyhow, after the fact I am entering the results
into sw to see if I get the same outcome

On that score, I have a question on the interpretation of the very
last paragraph in Addendum C, namely:

"For boats with scores from final-series races, ties in the regatta
score are broken by final series scores with no race score excluded.
This changes rule A8."

Could you tell me what, if anything sw does if this optional rule is
in force? I haven't found anywhere in V1.82 to select this in a
scoring system.

I thought it meant that A8.1 was modified to include only final series
scores inclusive of discards, but an alternative view is that the
_total_ final series score (including discards) is used to resolve
ties.

Also, the optional clause in the previous App C para, ie [However, no
more than one score may be excluded from the final series and only
when two or more final-series races have been completed.] - can sw
handle that?

And finally! What is the best way to import my existing results into
sw?

Regards
Ian

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

RalphT · 14 August 2005 13:25

Hi Ian
Forgot to reply to your AddC queries.

Some time ago, one of Colin's upgrades established that these issues had yet to be resolved.
Not sure if they have been dealt with so will need to wait until Colin gets back from holiday

PS
Martin actually used SW for his Qual & Finals event.
There are some bugs which required 'manual intervention' but apart from this, the overall package
worked fine (after burning some midnight oil in Derbyshire & Norway!!)

Regards
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: ian [mailto:yahoo@iws.uk.com]
Sent: 14 August 2005 14:06
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Flights and all that

Hi all,

I've just finished doing the results for the GP14 Nationals in Poole,
using App LE Addendum C, for which I used Excel. I was hoping to use
sw but I thought it would be cutting it a bit fine to go with the
development version. Anyhow, after the fact I am entering the results
into sw to see if I get the same outcome

On that score, I have a question on the interpretation of the very
last paragraph in Addendum C, namely:

"For boats with scores from final-series races, ties in the regatta
score are broken by final series scores with no race score excluded.
This changes rule A8."

Could you tell me what, if anything sw does if this optional rule is
in force? I haven't found anywhere in V1.82 to select this in a
scoring system.

I thought it meant that A8.1 was modified to include only final series
scores inclusive of discards, but an alternative view is that the
_total_ final series score (including discards) is used to resolve
ties.

Also, the optional clause in the previous App C para, ie [However, no
more than one score may be excluded from the final series and only
when two or more final-series races have been completed.] - can sw
handle that?

And finally! What is the best way to import my existing results into
sw?

Regards
Ian

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

Martin_Bolgen · 14 August 2005 18:59

Hi!
I did the LEaC, in the European Youth Championship for the Europe Class.

I can tell you that SW will not handle your change of App.A8. We had the same here..... This is because SW will not see the difference between Qualification series, and Final series scores. In the EYC all scores should count towards the final score, but ties should be broken by only Final series scores. I had to do it "manualy" by changing the rank number.

I can say that SW helped me to score. Probably alot better than Excel would have done, but it was far from stright through!

There is alot of weaknesses, from setting up the series, the sailnumberwizard, rearranging groups, and publishing race flights for tomorrw....

One of my first decisions, was to handle male and females in different files. It was a "pain in the ass" to make the same changes in printouts and so on, but that decision I do not regret. It helped me to KISS, if that make sense...

Ralph says: "after burning some midnight oil" .... I have had some much later evenings than this week, regarding scoring. That was before SW...

Actually, I burned more "midnight oil" before the event, than during....

This kind of events, qualifications and finals counting towards the whole championship, is the most complicated I've seen. The way 49er/29er did in Copenhagen this week, is easier: The take the score from Qual's, and make them into a non- discardable race in the finals. Then you can just set up a new series, and import the standing!

I still think Colin do have a problem: Making one general software to score everything. As I see it, it might be possible, but WOW- It will be complex and very difficult to handle.

If we could separate into 3, it could be more manageable. Maybe like this:

1. Standard fleet racing
2. Group/Flight racing ( Including App. LE Add.C)
3. Team racing (App.D)

And maybe also one for Match Racing, wich should be quite easy (?).

All these 3 (4) different scorings could be in one software, but a tick off in the startup stating what you wants to do...?

The arguments for saying that I'm wrong, is that SW right now are very flexible. And that actually made it possible for me to handle the EYC....

(I did actually not score the whole event, but tested how to do it in advance, and then trained the people in charge from monday to thursday. They did it themselves from friday to sunday, having me on the phone and e-mail...... They did call...).

Hope to find some time later this week, to summarize my experiences for the SUG.

My only conclution right now is: PREPARE! That is a keyword for making good events, and that also applies for the jury, Race management, courses and social activities. Doing a event just based upon experience, and preparation while running, does not do it!

SW is a greate tool, also for preparation!

Regards,
Martin

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Ralph Tingle
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 3:25 PM
  Subject: RE: [sailwave] Flights and all that

Hi Ian
Forgot to reply to your AddC queries.

Some time ago, one of Colin's upgrades established that these issues had yet to be resolved.
Not sure if they have been dealt with so will need to wait until Colin gets back from holiday

  PS
  Martin actually used SW for his Qual & Finals event.
  There are some bugs which required 'manual intervention' but apart from this, the overall package
  worked fine (after burning some midnight oil in Derbyshire & Norway!!)

Regards
Ralph

  -----Original Message-----
  From: ian [mailto:yahoo@iws.uk.com]
  Sent: 14 August 2005 14:06
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [sailwave] Flights and all that

Hi all,

  I've just finished doing the results for the GP14 Nationals in Poole,
  using App LE Addendum C, for which I used Excel. I was hoping to use
  sw but I thought it would be cutting it a bit fine to go with the
  development version. Anyhow, after the fact I am entering the results
  into sw to see if I get the same outcome

On that score, I have a question on the interpretation of the very
last paragraph in Addendum C, namely:

  "For boats with scores from final-series races, ties in the regatta
  score are broken by final series scores with no race score excluded.
  This changes rule A8."

  Could you tell me what, if anything sw does if this optional rule is
  in force? I haven't found anywhere in V1.82 to select this in a
  scoring system.

  I thought it meant that A8.1 was modified to include only final series
  scores inclusive of discards, but an alternative view is that the
  _total_ final series score (including discards) is used to resolve
  ties.

  Also, the optional clause in the previous App C para, ie [However, no
  more than one score may be excluded from the final series and only
  when two or more final-series races have been completed.] - can sw
  handle that?

And finally! What is the best way to import my existing results into
sw?

Regards
Ian

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

  Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
  sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
  Yahoo! Groups Links

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com

SPONSORED LINKS Sailing Boating Caribbean sailing
Sailing adventure Sailing cruise Sailing lesson

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

    a.. Visit your group "sailwave" on the web.

    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
     sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ian5 · 15 August 2005 08:57

Hi Martin,

Very interesting! I totally agree about the preparation - its essential.

I know its a bit off topic, but what did you (and competitors) think
of the flight system itself? I think there are mixed feelings about it
amongst the gp sailors.

Regards,
Ian

Hi!
I did the LEaC, in the European Youth Championship for the Europe Class.

I can tell you that SW will not handle your change of App.A8. We had

the same here..... This is because SW will not see the difference
between Qualification series, and Final series scores. In the EYC all
scores should count towards the final score, but ties should be broken
by only Final series scores. I had to do it "manualy" by changing the
rank number.

I can say that SW helped me to score. Probably alot better than

Excel would have done, but it was far from stright through!

There is alot of weaknesses, from setting up the series, the

sailnumberwizard, rearranging groups, and publishing race flights for
tomorrw....

One of my first decisions, was to handle male and females in

different files. It was a "pain in the ass" to make the same changes
in printouts and so on, but that decision I do not regret. It helped
me to KISS, if that make sense...

Ralph says: "after burning some midnight oil" .... I have had some

much later evenings than this week, regarding scoring. That was before
SW...

Actually, I burned more "midnight oil" before the event, than during....

This kind of events, qualifications and finals counting towards the

whole championship, is the most complicated I've seen. The way
49er/29er did in Copenhagen this week, is easier: The take the score
from Qual's, and make them into a non- discardable race in the finals.
Then you can just set up a new series, and import the standing!

I still think Colin do have a problem: Making one general software

to score everything. As I see it, it might be possible, but WOW- It
will be complex and very difficult to handle.

If we could separate into 3, it could be more manageable. Maybe like

this:

1. Standard fleet racing
2. Group/Flight racing ( Including App. LE Add.C)
3. Team racing (App.D)

And maybe also one for Match Racing, wich should be quite easy (?).

All these 3 (4) different scorings could be in one software, but a

tick off in the startup stating what you wants to do...?

The arguments for saying that I'm wrong, is that SW right now are

very flexible. And that actually made it possible for me to handle the
EYC....

(I did actually not score the whole event, but tested how to do it

in advance, and then trained the people in charge from monday to
thursday. They did it themselves from friday to sunday, having me on
the phone and e-mail...... They did call...).

Hope to find some time later this week, to summarize my experiences

for the SUG.

My only conclution right now is: PREPARE! That is a keyword for

making good events, and that also applies for the jury, Race
management, courses and social activities. Doing a event just based
upon experience, and preparation while running, does not do it!

SW is a greate tool, also for preparation!

Regards,
Martin
  From: Ralph Tingle
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 3:25 PM
  Subject: RE: [sailwave] Flights and all that

  Hi Ian
  Forgot to reply to your AddC queries.

  Some time ago, one of Colin's upgrades established that these

issues had yet to be resolved.

Not sure if they have been dealt with so will need to wait until

Colin gets back from holiday

  PS
  Martin actually used SW for his Qual & Finals event.
  There are some bugs which required 'manual intervention' but apart

from this, the overall package

  worked fine (after burning some midnight oil in Derbyshire & Norway!!)

  Regards
  Ralph

  From: ian [mailto:yahoo@i…]
  Sent: 14 August 2005 14:06
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [sailwave] Flights and all that

  Hi all,

  I've just finished doing the results for the GP14 Nationals in Poole,
  using App LE Addendum C, for which I used Excel. I was hoping to use
  sw but I thought it would be cutting it a bit fine to go with the
  development version. Anyhow, after the fact I am entering the results
  into sw to see if I get the same outcome

  On that score, I have a question on the interpretation of the very
  last paragraph in Addendum C, namely:

  "For boats with scores from final-series races, ties in the regatta
  score are broken by final series scores with no race score excluded.
  This changes rule A8."

  Could you tell me what, if anything sw does if this optional rule is
  in force? I haven't found anywhere in V1.82 to select this in a
  scoring system.

  I thought it meant that A8.1 was modified to include only final series
  scores inclusive of discards, but an alternative view is that the
  _total_ final series score (including discards) is used to resolve
  ties.

  Also, the optional clause in the previous App C para, ie [However, no
  more than one score may be excluded from the final series and only
  when two or more final-series races have been completed.] - can sw
  handle that?

  And finally! What is the best way to import my existing results into
  sw?

  Regards
  Ian

  -!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/

-!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files'

section at

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

  Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
  sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
  Yahoo! Groups Links

  -!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/

-!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files'

section at

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Martin Bølgen <martin@s...> wrote:

  ----- Original Message -----
  -----Original Message-----
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

  Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
  sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com

  SPONSORED LINKS Sailing Boating Caribbean sailing
        Sailing adventure Sailing cruise Sailing lesson

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

    a.. Visit your group "sailwave" on the web.

    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
     sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RalphT · 15 August 2005 10:12

Hi Ian

You queried:
I know its a bit off topic, but what did you (and competitors) think of the flight system itself? I
think there are mixed feelings about it amongst the gp sailors.

If I could respond from a race management point of view.
One of the problems of running races for big fleets (say 100-150+) is the ability of the race
officer to achieve a fair start due to:

LONG START LINES
ISAF recommend a start line of all boats end to end, multiplied by a factor of up to 1.5.
In reality, this can be a major problem & the race officer has no option but to settle for a shorter
line, which then produces overcrowding and in some instances can be quite dangerous, especially with
mixed class races.

MOVING START LINES
Many sailors expect the RO to be perfect and be able to call a start line which consists of a start
boat and pin end which is constantly moving up and down and forwards and backwards.
This is not a problem in small fleets but it is a different proposition with a line of over 500m and
100+ boats all wanting to get a perfect start.

COMPETITORS KNOWING WHERE THE LINE IS
It is difficult enough for competitors to identify transits for a short line but in very long lines
it becomes pointless when the boat next to you starts moving forward to try & see their pin end
transit.
This only causes all the other boats to windward to also edge forward & thereby cause a General
Recall.
The greater the number of competitors on the line, the greater the likelihood of a General Recall.
You may say that the resulting black flag is OK but is it really fair when there is another General
Recall under black flag & lots of boats got away with it because the race team could only
conclusively identify some 6 - 10 boats???

ISAF GUIDELINES
I have seen somewhere (can't remember where!) that in order to overcome these problems, ISAF have
expressed a view that starts should ideally be limited to around 60 competitors and therefore the
flights system will need to be used.

BETTER OR WORSE?
In deciding if this is a move in the right direction, I suspect that most sailors of will prefer one
mass start especially as it is more dramatic, the bigger the fleet is.
Unfortunately, competitors still expect the RO to:
- be perfect when calling the start,
- maintain a true line in relation to the wind,
- ensure that the beat is long enough to prevent carnage at the first rounding of the windward mark

If competitors vote for a single mass start, it should be with the realisation that the RO will try
his/her best but is, after all, only human!!

Look forward to comments from competitors

Regards
Ralph

Mike · 15 August 2005 11:07

"One of the problems of running races for big fleets (say 100-150+)
is the ability of the race officer to achieve a fair start"

Er, wasn't that why Gate Starts were introduced? Personally, as a competitor, I find 50 boat start lines exciting enough (let alone 150), and as a RO more than long enough to manage
Having never experienced flights I can't comment on them, but I have enjoyed the thrills, and lack of barging, that a gate start can produce. Why less barging, because the focus is on a constantly changing small group of boats starting / about to start and any unfair goings on can be easily spotted, and subsequently penalized, from the guard boat

Mike Croker
Lancing SC

Ralph Tingle wrote:

···

Hi Ian

You queried:
I know its a bit off topic, but what did you (and competitors) think of the flight system itself? I
think there are mixed feelings about it amongst the gp sailors.

If I could respond from a race management point of view.
One of the problems of running races for big fleets (say 100-150+) is the ability of the race
officer to achieve a fair start due to:

LONG START LINES
ISAF recommend a start line of all boats end to end, multiplied by a factor of up to 1.5.
In reality, this can be a major problem & the race officer has no option but to settle for a shorter
line, which then produces overcrowding and in some instances can be quite dangerous, especially with
mixed class races.

MOVING START LINES
Many sailors expect the RO to be perfect and be able to call a start line which consists of a start
boat and pin end which is constantly moving up and down and forwards and backwards.
This is not a problem in small fleets but it is a different proposition with a line of over 500m and
100+ boats all wanting to get a perfect start.

COMPETITORS KNOWING WHERE THE LINE IS
It is difficult enough for competitors to identify transits for a short line but in very long lines
it becomes pointless when the boat next to you starts moving forward to try & see their pin end
transit.
This only causes all the other boats to windward to also edge forward & thereby cause a General
Recall.
The greater the number of competitors on the line, the greater the likelihood of a General Recall.
You may say that the resulting black flag is OK but is it really fair when there is another General
Recall under black flag & lots of boats got away with it because the race team could only
conclusively identify some 6 - 10 boats???

ISAF GUIDELINES
I have seen somewhere (can't remember where!) that in order to overcome these problems, ISAF have
expressed a view that starts should ideally be limited to around 60 competitors and therefore the
flights system will need to be used.

BETTER OR WORSE?
In deciding if this is a move in the right direction, I suspect that most sailors of will prefer one
mass start especially as it is more dramatic, the bigger the fleet is.
Unfortunately, competitors still expect the RO to:
- be perfect when calling the start,
- maintain a true line in relation to the wind,
- ensure that the beat is long enough to prevent carnage at the first rounding of the windward mark

If competitors vote for a single mass start, it should be with the realisation that the RO will try
his/her best but is, after all, only human!!

Look forward to comments from competitors

Regards
Ralph

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links

mtownsend · 15 August 2005 15:09

If you don't want to use flights, don't like gates, try using a multiple
race committee boat starting line. The rule below is for a two segment,
three RC start-line, but you can add as many RC boats as you want. If you
don't want to have more than forty boats per line then add another RC boat,
or two. We used this system for the Melges Worlds, sailors seemed happy and
it was easy from the RC side, once you figured out the geometry of the whole
mess.

xx.1 The Starting Line will consist of three committee boats; starboard end
boat, mid-line Signal Boat and port end line boat. The mid-line boat might
not be on a straight line between the starboard end Signal Boat and the port
end line boat.
xx.2 The Starting Line will be between a staff displaying an orange flag on
the starboard end Signal Boat and a staff displaying an orange flag on the
mid-line boat and between staffs displaying orange flags on the mid-line
boat and the port end line boat.
xx.3 When RRS 30.1 Round-an-End Rule is in effect for a start. Boats subject
to this rule shall sail to the pre-start side of the line around either end,
or around the mid-line boat, leaving it to port as if it were the port end
of the starting line, before starting. This modifies RRS 30.1.

···

_____

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 3:12 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Flights and all that

Hi Ian

You queried:
I know its a bit off topic, but what did you (and competitors) think of the
flight system itself? I
think there are mixed feelings about it amongst the gp sailors.

If I could respond from a race management point of view.
One of the problems of running races for big fleets (say 100-150+) is the
ability of the race
officer to achieve a fair start due to:

LONG START LINES
ISAF recommend a start line of all boats end to end, multiplied by a factor
of up to 1.5.
In reality, this can be a major problem & the race officer has no option but
to settle for a shorter
line, which then produces overcrowding and in some instances can be quite
dangerous, especially with
mixed class races.

MOVING START LINES
Many sailors expect the RO to be perfect and be able to call a start line
which consists of a start
boat and pin end which is constantly moving up and down and forwards and
backwards.
This is not a problem in small fleets but it is a different proposition with
a line of over 500m and
100+ boats all wanting to get a perfect start.

COMPETITORS KNOWING WHERE THE LINE IS
It is difficult enough for competitors to identify transits for a short line
but in very long lines
it becomes pointless when the boat next to you starts moving forward to try
& see their pin end
transit.
This only causes all the other boats to windward to also edge forward &
thereby cause a General
Recall.
The greater the number of competitors on the line, the greater the
likelihood of a General Recall.
You may say that the resulting black flag is OK but is it really fair when
there is another General
Recall under black flag & lots of boats got away with it because the race
team could only
conclusively identify some 6 - 10 boats???

ISAF GUIDELINES
I have seen somewhere (can't remember where!) that in order to overcome
these problems, ISAF have
expressed a view that starts should ideally be limited to around 60
competitors and therefore the
flights system will need to be used.

BETTER OR WORSE?
In deciding if this is a move in the right direction, I suspect that most
sailors of will prefer one
mass start especially as it is more dramatic, the bigger the fleet is.
Unfortunately, competitors still expect the RO to:
- be perfect when calling the start,
- maintain a true line in relation to the wind,
- ensure that the beat is long enough to prevent carnage at the first
rounding of the windward mark

If competitors vote for a single mass start, it should be with the
realisation that the RO will try
his/her best but is, after all, only human!!

Look forward to comments from competitors

Regards
Ralph

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!-
http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com