I know that your very busy with the new sailwave set up but I had
no respond from anybody and if you can help me I will highly appreciate
it.
I face a problem when I
score an offshore race using time on distance scoring system.
The program calculates the corrected times ( even negative values
)correctly but it sorts and scores the competitors wrong. It scores them
exactly the other way around !!!
Any ideas
Yiannis Papazoglou
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
I know that your very busy with the new sailwave set up but I had no respond from anybody and if you can help me I will highly appreciate it.
I face a problem when I score an offshore race using time on distance scoring system.
The program calculates the corrected times ( even negative values )correctly but it sorts and scores the competitors wrong. It scores them exactly the other way around !!!
Any ideas
Yiannis Papazoglou
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
Perhaps you could attach your Sailwave file (*.blw) to an email to this group.
We could then see what is happening and what is causing it.
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield, South Africa
----- Original Message -----
From: ioannis papazoglou
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 11:13 AM
Subject: FW: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
I know that your very busy with the new sailwave set up but I had no respond from anybody and if you can help me I will highly appreciate it.
I face a problem when I score an offshore race using time on distance scoring system.
The program calculates the corrected times ( even negative values )correctly but it sorts and scores the competitors wrong. It scores them exactly the other way around !!!
Any ideas
Yiannis Papazoglou
I know that
your very busy with the new sailwave set up but I had no respond from anybody
and if you can help me I will highly appreciate it.
I face a problem
when I score an offshore race using time on distance scoring system.
The program calculates the corrected times ( even negative values
)correctly but it sorts and scores the competitors wrong. It scores them
exactly the other way around !!!
Any ideas
Yiannis Papazoglou
Your E-mail and
More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
Those PHRF numbers seem awfully high. I think that might be your problem. When I look at boat number 2 “VANDOME” and take his PHRF number of 788, multiply it by the distance of the race 11.6, that yields a total handicap of 9140.8 seconds or something like 2.5 hours! I am guessing that what you entered as the PHRF number was really the boats total handicap which would be PHRF * distance.
Sailwave will multiply the PHRF number by the distance for you. The PHRF number you put in for each boat should be its handicap per unit of distance, not already multiplied by the distance. Alternatively, if you have already calculated all PHRFs based on the length of the race you could go into the “Edit Race” and set the race length to 1 and although it would be entered wrong you should get the right answer in the end.
I know that
your very busy with the new sailwave set up but I had no respond from anybody
and if you can help me I will highly appreciate it.
I face a problem
when I score an offshore race using time on distance scoring system.
The program calculates the corrected times ( even negative values
)correctly but it sorts and scores the competitors wrong. It scores them
exactly the other way around !!!
Any ideas
Yiannis Papazoglou
Your E-mail and
More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
Those PHRF numbers seem awfully high. I think that might be your problem. When I look at boat number 2 “VANDOME” and take his PHRF number of 788, multiply it by the distance of the race 11.6, that yields a total handicap of 9140.8 seconds or something like 2.5 hours! I am guessing that what you entered as the PHRF number was really the boats total handicap which would be PHRF * distance.
Sailwave will multiply the PHRF number by the distance for you. The PHRF number you put in for each boat should be its handicap per unit of distance, not already multiplied by the distance. Alternatively, if you have already calculated all PHRFs based on the length of the race you could go into the “Edit Race” and set the race length to 1 and although it would be entered wrong you should get the right answer in the end.
I know that your very busy with the new sailwave set up but I had no respond from anybody and if you can help me I will highly appreciate it.
I face a problem when I score an offshore race using time on distance scoring system.
The program calculates the corrected times ( even negative values )correctly but it sorts and scores the competitors wrong. It scores them exactly the other way around !!!
Any ideas
Yiannis Papazoglou
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.
I would politely suggest you speak to the folks who generated the orc club official certificates. I still hold the opinion/belief that the PHRF numbers you have been given via the certificates already have the distance factored in. PHRF handicaps when correctly expressed are in seconds per nautical mile. Perhaps the orc races are always the same length 11.6 miles, so the person preparing the certificates factored it in to make the scoring “easier”. PHRF handicaps in the range of 769 thru 901 are so large that they I cannot imagine them as fitting the definition of seconds per mile. 901 seconds is 15 minutes. Handicapping a boat 15 minutes per mile simply does not fit. The case I present is also supported by the fact that the corrected time goes negative. I do not believe that should ever happen under the PHRF handicapping system.
I believe that for all normal PHRF handicaps the Sailwave software performs correctly. I do think it would be better if it sorted the negative numbers as all being smaller than the positive numbers and ordered the boats correctly based on the handicap numbers you provided (and it did not sort the negative numbers correctly, I will agree with you on that) but I also think that it is only because of the negative numbers that we found out that something is wrong with the PHRF numbers you are using and that needs to be corrected to provide fair race scoring to the orc racers.
Best of Luck and do try to check with your local PHRF folks.
Jamie goodevening,
the PHRF numbers used are the numbers refered on the orc club official certificates.
the calculation is correct. I did it manually as well. The numbers are negative. The problem is that the competitors are
not scored correctly.
Best regards
Yiannis
Subject: Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
Yiannis,
Those PHRF numbers seem awfully high. I think that might be your problem. When I look at boat number 2 “VANDOME” and take his PHRF number of 788, multiply it by the distance of the race 11.6, that yields a total handicap of 9140.8 seconds or something like 2.5 hours! I am guessing that what you entered as the PHRF number was really the boats total handicap which would be PHRF * distance.
Sailwave will multiply the PHRF number by the distance for you. The PHRF number you put in for each boat should be its handicap per unit of distance, not already multiplied by the distance. Alternatively, if you have already calculated all PHRFs based on the length of the race you could go into the “Edit Race” and set the race length to 1 and although it would be entered wrong you should get the right answer in the end.
I know that your very busy with the new sailwave set up but I had no respond from anybody and if you can help me I will highly appreciate it.
I face a problem when I score an offshore race using time on distance scoring system.
The program calculates the corrected times ( even negative values )correctly but it sorts and scores the competitors wrong. It scores them exactly the other way around !!!
Any ideas
Yiannis Papazoglou
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.
Caveat to the following - this is the first time I have looked at ToD
handicapping, so I may be completely of beam. Apologies in advance if
so.
I have had a look at the ORC web site () and the rating
values look plausible (). I also
followed the link () to their scoring
options and using the information on their web site the calculations
Sailwave is doing appear correct. The ORC web site does not say in what
units the distance is measured, but are they nautical miles or statute
miles! I would assume nautical.
What Sailwave seems to be doing when sorting corrected times is taking
the value of the corrected time ignoring any plus (+) or minus (-)
sign. I would have expected that all corrected times would be a
positive value and therefore no problem with sorting on corrected
times, but when negative times occur it has highlighted a boundary
condition that was possibly not anticipated. My supposition, of ignoring sign of corrected time, is shown on
examination of the Corrected Time column; ‘Glaroni’ given 3rd place has
a positive corrected time but is placed between two boats with negative
corrected times, i.e. ignoring the sign (+ or -) of the corrected time
this would be correct.
Kind regards,
Huw
I would politely suggest you speak to the folks who generated
the orc club official certificates. �I still hold the opinion/belief
that the PHRF numbers you have been given via the certificates already
have the distance factored in. �PHRF handicaps when correctly expressed
are in seconds per nautical mile. �Perhaps the orc races are always the
same length 11.6 miles, so the person preparing the certificates
factored it in to make the scoring “easier”. �PHRF handicaps in the
range of 769 thru 901 are so large that they I cannot imagine them as
fitting the definition of seconds per mile. �901 seconds is 15 minutes.
�Handicapping a boat 15 minutes per mile simply does not fit. �The case
I present is also supported by the fact that the corrected time goes
negative. �I do not believe that should ever happen under the PHRF
handicapping system.�
I believe that for all normal PHRF handicaps the Sailwave
software performs correctly. �I do think it would be better if it
sorted the negative numbers as all being smaller than the positive
numbers and ordered the boats correctly based on the handicap numbers
you provided (and it did not sort the negative numbers correctly, I
will agree with you on that) but I also think that it is only because
of the negative numbers that we found out that something is wrong with
the PHRF numbers you are using and that needs to be corrected to
provide fair race scoring to the orc racers.
Best of Luck and do try to check with your local PHRF folks.
�
Jamie goodevening,
the�PHRF numbers used are the numbers refered on the orc club official
certificates.
the calculation is correct. I did it manually as well. The numbers are
negative. The problem is that the competitors are
not scored correctly.
Best regards
Yiannis
�
Subject: Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
�
Yiannis,
Those PHRF numbers seem awfully high. �I think that might be
your problem. �When I look at boat number 2 “VANDOME” and take his PHRF
number of 788, multiply it by the distance of the race 11.6, that
yields a total handicap of 9140.8 seconds or something like 2.5 hours!
�I am guessing that what you entered as the PHRF number was really the
boats total handicap which would be PHRF * distance.
Sailwave will multiply the PHRF number by the distance for
you. �The PHRF number you put in for each boat should be its handicap
per unit of distance, not already multiplied by the distance.
�Alternatively, if you have already calculated all PHRFs based on the
length of the race you could go into the “Edit Race” and set the race
length to 1 and although it would be entered wrong you should get the
right answer in the end.
I�know that your very busy with the new
sailwave set up but I had no respond from anybody and if you can help
me I will�highly appreciate it.
I face a problem when I score an offshore
race using time on distance scoring system.
The program calculates the corrected times�( even negative values
)correctly but it sorts and scores the competitors wrong. It scores
them exactly the other way around !!!
Any ideas
Yiannis Papazoglou
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows
Live Hotmail Free. Sign
up now.
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get
it now.
Time on Distance is not the usual method of ranking, the numbers are give to distribute boats into groups of similar performance.
The formula used gives correct results, reference time for GAVINA is 11.6 * 901.7 = 10460 s or 02:54:20, so the boat was 0:01:26 slow on reference time.
But this result may not be labelled as “corrected time”.
There should be a reference boat defines, existing or virtual.
Example : if the reference boat is the fastest one, ALMIRA GPH 769, values used for handicap should be de DIFFERENCES on GPH
Subject: Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
Yiannis & Jamie,
Caveat to the following - this is the first time I have looked at ToD handicapping, so I may be completely of beam. Apologies in advance if so.
I have had a look at the ORC web site (www.orc.org ) and the rating values look plausible (http://www.orc.org/clubcert.htm ). I also followed the link (http://www.orc.org/clubscoring.htm ) to their scoring options and using the information on their web site the calculations Sailwave is doing appear correct. The ORC web site does not say in what units the distance is measured, but are they nautical miles or statute miles! I would assume nautical.
What Sailwave seems to be doing when sorting corrected times is taking the value of the corrected time ignoring any plus (+) or minus (-) sign. I would have expected that all corrected times would be a positive value and therefore no problem with sorting on corrected times, but when negative times occur it has highlighted a boundary condition that was possibly not anticipated.
RACE1 - 27/06/09 at
Start: Start 1, Finishes: Finish time, Time: 14:05:00, Distance: 11.6
My supposition, of ignoring sign of corrected time, is shown on examination of the Corrected Time column; ‘Glaroni’ given 3rd place has a positive corrected time but is placed between two boats with negative corrected times, i.e. ignoring the sign (+ or -) of the corrected time this would be correct.
Kind regards,
Huw
On 27/03/2010 03:05, Jamie Diamond wrote:
Yiannis,
I would politely suggest you speak to the folks who generated the orc club official certificates. I still hold the opinion/belief that the PHRF numbers you have been given via the certificates already have the distance factored in. PHRF handicaps when correctly expressed are in seconds per nautical mile. Perhaps the orc races are always the same length 11.6 miles, so the person preparing the certificates factored it in to make the scoring "easier". PHRF handicaps in the range of 769 thru 901 are so large that they I cannot imagine them as fitting the definition of seconds per mile. 901 seconds is 15 minutes. Handicapping a boat 15 minutes per mile simply does not fit. The case I present is also supported by the fact that the corrected time goes negative. I do not believe that should ever happen under the PHRF handicapping system.
I believe that for all normal PHRF handicaps the Sailwave software performs correctly. I do think it would be better if it sorted the negative numbers as all being smaller than the positive numbers and ordered the boats correctly based on the handicap numbers you provided (and it did not sort the negative numbers correctly, I will agree with you on that) but I also think that it is only because of the negative numbers that we found out that something is wrong with the PHRF numbers you are using and that needs to be corrected to provide fair race scoring to the orc racers.
Best of Luck and do try to check with your local PHRF folks.
Jamie Diamond
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 1:22 PM, ioannis papazoglou <ypapazoglou@hotmail.com> > > wrote:
Jamie goodevening,
the PHRF numbers used are the numbers refered on the orc club official certificates.
the calculation is correct. I did it manually as well. The numbers are negative. The problem is that the competitors are
not scored correctly.
Best regards
Yiannis
Subject: Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
Yiannis,
Those PHRF numbers seem awfully high. I think that might be your problem. When I look at boat number 2 "VANDOME" and take his PHRF number of 788, multiply it by the distance of the race 11.6, that yields a total handicap of 9140.8 seconds or something like 2.5 hours! I am guessing that what you entered as the PHRF number was really the boats total handicap which would be PHRF * distance.
Sailwave will multiply the PHRF number by the distance for you. The PHRF number you put in for each boat should be its handicap per unit of distance, not already multiplied by the distance. Alternatively, if you have already calculated all PHRFs based on the length of the race you could go into the "Edit Race" and set the race length to 1 and although it would be entered wrong you should get the right answer in the end.
I know that your very busy with the new sailwave set up but I had no respond from anybody and if you can help me I will highly appreciate it.
I face a problem when I score an offshore race using time on distance scoring system.
The program calculates the corrected times ( even negative values )correctly but it sorts and scores the competitors wrong. It scores them exactly the other way around !!!
Any ideas
Yiannis Papazoglou
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. [Sign up now.](https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969)
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.
Corrected time is calculated by the distance coefficient as follows:*
Corrected time = Elapsed
time - (ToD * Distance)
This is the most popular
method of calculating corrected time. With Time on distance (ToD), the
coefficient of time allowance of one boat will not change with wind
velocity, but will change with length of the course. One boat will be
always be giving to another the same handicap in s/NM, and it is easy
to calculate the difference in elapsed time between two boats needed
for a win in corrected time. The ToD method is best used in constant
wind conditions.
ORC works with
nautical miles.�
Time on Distance
is not the usual method of ranking, the numbers are give to distribute
boats into groups of similar performance.�
�
The formula used
gives correct results, reference time for GAVINA is 11.6 * 901.7 =
10460 s or 02:54:20, so the boat was 0:01:26 slow on reference time.
But this result
may not be labelled as “corrected time”.
�
There should be a
reference boat defines, existing or virtual.�
Example : if the
reference boat is the fastest one, ALMIRA GPH 769, values used for
handicap should be de DIFFERENCES on GPH
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
Yiannis & Jamie,
Caveat to the following - this is the first time I have looked at ToD
handicapping, so I may be completely of beam. Apologies in advance if
so.
I have had a look at the ORC web site ()
and the rating values look plausible ().
I also followed the link ()
to their scoring options and using the information on their web site
the calculations Sailwave is doing appear correct. The ORC web site
does not say in what units the distance is measured, but are they
nautical miles or statute miles! I would assume nautical.
What Sailwave seems to be doing when sorting corrected times is taking
the value of the corrected time ignoring any plus (+) or minus (-)
sign. I would have expected that all corrected times would be a
positive value and therefore no problem with sorting on corrected
times, but when negative times occur it has highlighted a boundary
condition that was possibly not anticipated. My supposition, of ignoring sign of corrected time, is shown on
examination of the Corrected Time column; ‘Glaroni’ given 3rd place has
a positive corrected time but is placed between two boats with negative
corrected times, i.e. ignoring the sign (+ or -) of the corrected time
this would be correct.
Kind regards,
Huw
On 27/03/2010 03:05, Jamie Diamond wrote:
I would politely suggest you speak to the folks who
generated the orc club official certificates. �I still hold the
opinion/belief that the PHRF numbers you have been given via the
certificates already have the distance factored in. �PHRF handicaps
when correctly expressed are in seconds per nautical mile. �Perhaps the
orc races are always the same length 11.6 miles, so the person
preparing the certificates factored it in to make the scoring “easier”.
�PHRF handicaps in the range of 769 thru 901 are so large that they I
cannot imagine them as fitting the definition of seconds per mile. �901
seconds is 15 minutes. �Handicapping a boat 15 minutes per mile simply
does not fit. �The case I present is also supported by the fact that
the corrected time goes negative. �I do not believe that should ever
happen under the PHRF handicapping system.�
I believe that for all normal PHRF handicaps the Sailwave
software performs correctly. �I do think it would be better if it
sorted the negative numbers as all being smaller than the positive
numbers and ordered the boats correctly based on the handicap numbers
you provided (and it did not sort the negative numbers correctly, I
will agree with you on that) but I also think that it is only because
of the negative numbers that we found out that something is wrong with
the PHRF numbers you are using and that needs to be corrected to
provide fair race scoring to the orc racers.
Best of Luck and do try to check with your local PHRF folks.
�
Jamie goodevening,
the�PHRF numbers used are the numbers refered on the orc club official
certificates.
the calculation is correct. I did it manually as well. The numbers are
negative. The problem is that the competitors are
not scored correctly.
Best regards
Yiannis
�
Subject: Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
�
Yiannis,
Those PHRF numbers seem awfully high. �I think that might
be your problem. �When I look at boat number 2 “VANDOME” and take his
PHRF number of 788, multiply it by the distance of the race 11.6, that
yields a total handicap of 9140.8 seconds or something like 2.5 hours!
�I am guessing that what you entered as the PHRF number was really the
boats total handicap which would be PHRF * distance.
Sailwave will multiply the PHRF number by the distance for
you. �The PHRF number you put in for each boat should be its handicap
per unit of distance, not already multiplied by the distance.
�Alternatively, if you have already calculated all PHRFs based on the
length of the race you could go into the “Edit Race” and set the race
length to 1 and although it would be entered wrong you should get the
right answer in the end.
I�know that your very busy with the new
sailwave set up but I had no respond from anybody and if you can help
me I will�highly appreciate it.
I face a problem when I score an offshore
race using time on distance scoring system.
The program calculates the corrected times�( even negative values
)correctly but it sorts and scores the competitors wrong. It scores
them exactly the other way around !!!
Any ideas
Yiannis Papazoglou
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows
Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.
I understand, and I’m telling just the same as ORC, but ToD is NOT GPH (General purpose Handicap)
The principle is that you define a reference boat, usually the fastest of the fleet, of if there are groups, the top limit of the group, or a “symbolic” value like 800 or 750, then you substract this value from all GPH to get the ToD in sec/M. And there is no problem any more.
You were using PHRF, someone told the GPH numbers were unusually high… this is the reason why.
Corrected time is calculated by the distance coefficient as follows:*
_ Corrected time = Elapsed time - (ToD * Distance)_
This is the most popular method of calculating corrected time. With Time on distance (ToD), the coefficient of time allowance of one boat will not change with wind velocity, but will change with length of the course. One boat will be always be giving to another the same handicap in s/NM, and it is easy to calculate the difference in elapsed time between two boats needed for a win in corrected time. The ToD method is best used in constant wind conditions.*
From what you have said this is not the correct formula to use.
Kind regards, Huw
On 27/03/2010 11:19, Philippe DE TROY wrote:
ORC works with nautical miles.
Time on Distance is not the usual method of ranking, the numbers are give to distribute boats into groups of similar performance.
The formula used gives correct results, reference time for GAVINA is 11.6 * 901.7 = 10460 s or 02:54:20, so the boat was 0:01:26 slow on reference time.
But this result may not be labelled as "corrected time".
There should be a reference boat defines, existing or virtual.
Example : if the reference boat is the fastest one, ALMIRA GPH 769, values used for handicap should be de DIFFERENCES on GPH
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
Yiannis & Jamie,
Caveat to the following - this is the first time I have looked at ToD handicapping, so I may be completely of beam. Apologies in advance if so.
I have had a look at the ORC web site ([www.orc.org](http://www.orc.org) ) and the rating values look plausible ([http://www.orc.org/clubcert.htm](http://www.orc.org/clubcert.htm) ). I also followed the link ([http://www.orc.org/clubscoring.htm](http://www.orc.org/clubscoring.htm) ) to their scoring options and using the information on their web site the calculations Sailwave is doing appear correct. The ORC web site does not say in what units the distance is measured, but are they nautical miles or statute miles! I would assume nautical.
What Sailwave seems to be doing when sorting corrected times is taking the value of the corrected time ignoring any plus (+) or minus (-) sign. I would have expected that all corrected times would be a positive value and therefore no problem with sorting on corrected times, but when negative times occur it has highlighted a boundary condition that was possibly not anticipated.
RACE1 - 27/06/09 at
Start: Start 1, Finishes: Finish time, Time: 14:05:00, Distance: 11.6
My supposition, of ignoring sign of corrected time, is shown on examination of the Corrected Time column; 'Glaroni' given 3rd place has a positive corrected time but is placed between two boats with negative corrected times, i.e. ignoring the sign (+ or -) of the corrected time this would be correct.
Kind regards,
Huw
On 27/03/2010 03:05, Jamie Diamond wrote:
Yiannis,
I would politely suggest you speak to the folks who generated the orc club official certificates. I still hold the opinion/belief that the PHRF numbers you have been given via the certificates already have the distance factored in. PHRF handicaps when correctly expressed are in seconds per nautical mile. Perhaps the orc races are always the same length 11.6 miles, so the person preparing the certificates factored it in to make the scoring "easier". PHRF handicaps in the range of 769 thru 901 are so large that they I cannot imagine them as fitting the definition of seconds per mile. 901 seconds is 15 minutes. Handicapping a boat 15 minutes per mile simply does not fit. The case I present is also supported by the fact that the corrected time goes negative. I do not believe that should ever happen under the PHRF handicapping system.
I believe that for all normal PHRF handicaps the Sailwave software performs correctly. I do think it would be better if it sorted the negative numbers as all being smaller than the positive numbers and ordered the boats correctly based on the handicap numbers you provided (and it did not sort the negative numbers correctly, I will agree with you on that) but I also think that it is only because of the negative numbers that we found out that something is wrong with the PHRF numbers you are using and that needs to be corrected to provide fair race scoring to the orc racers.
Best of Luck and do try to check with your local PHRF folks.
Jamie Diamond
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 1:22 PM, ioannis papazoglou <ypapazoglou@hotmail.com> wrote:
Jamie goodevening,
the PHRF numbers used are the numbers refered on the orc club official certificates.
the calculation is correct. I did it manually as well. The numbers are negative. The problem is that the competitors are
not scored correctly.
Best regards
Yiannis
Subject: Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
Yiannis,
Those PHRF numbers seem awfully high. I think that might be your problem. When I look at boat number 2 "VANDOME" and take his PHRF number of 788, multiply it by the distance of the race 11.6, that yields a total handicap of 9140.8 seconds or something like 2.5 hours! I am guessing that what you entered as the PHRF number was really the boats total handicap which would be PHRF * distance.
Sailwave will multiply the PHRF number by the distance for you. The PHRF number you put in for each boat should be its handicap per unit of distance, not already multiplied by the distance. Alternatively, if you have already calculated all PHRFs based on the length of the race you could go into the "Edit Race" and set the race length to 1 and although it would be entered wrong you should get the right answer in the end.
I know that your very busy with the new sailwave set up but I had no respond from anybody and if you can help me I will highly appreciate it.
I face a problem when I score an offshore race using time on distance scoring system.
The program calculates the corrected times ( even negative values )correctly but it sorts and scores the competitors wrong. It scores them exactly the other way around !!!
Any ideas
Yiannis Papazoglou
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Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.
I think I now understand but it is not explained on the ORC web site
that a reference boat has to be decided and that the ToD value in the
equation [ c = e - (ToD * Distance) is, or should be, a difference
value [ORC ToD reference boat - ORC ToD specific boat]. On the ORC web
site sample certificate page () under
the scoring section it just shows Time on Distance values for Offshore
(Coastal/Long Distance) and Inshore (windward / Leeward). As has been shown Sailwave will not produce expected results as in the
case raised by Yiannis. How Colin could cope with this scenario I don’t
know.
Kind regards,
Huw
I understand, and
I’m telling just the same as ORC, but ToD is NOT GPH (General purpose
Handicap)
The principle is
that you define a reference boat, usually the fastest of the fleet, of
if there are groups, the top limit of the group, or a “symbolic” value
like 800 or 750, then you substract this value from�all GPH to get the
ToD in sec/M.� And there is no problem any more.�
�
You were using
PHRF, someone told the�GPH numbers were unusually high… this is the
reason why.�
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
Hi Phil,
Thanks for the information but I am still confused. I will go back and
re-read your information.
The following is from the ORC web site ()
From what you have said this is not the correct formula to use.
Kind regards, Huw
On 27/03/2010 11:19, Philippe DE TROY wrote:
Corrected time is calculated by the distance coefficient as follows:*
Corrected time = Elapsed time -
(ToD * Distance)
This is the most popular method of
calculating corrected time. With Time on distance (ToD), the
coefficient of time allowance of one boat will not change with wind
velocity, but will change with length of the course. One boat will be
always be giving to another the same handicap in s/NM, and it is easy
to calculate the difference in elapsed time between two boats needed
for a win in corrected time. The ToD method is best used in constant
wind conditions.
�
ORC works with
nautical miles.�
Time on
Distance is not the usual method of ranking, the numbers are give to
distribute boats into groups of similar performance.�
�
The formula
used gives correct results, reference time for GAVINA is 11.6 * 901.7 =
10460 s or 02:54:20, so the boat was 0:01:26 slow on reference time.
But this
result may not be labelled as “corrected time”.
�
There should
be a reference boat defines, existing or virtual.�
Example : if
the reference boat is the fastest one, ALMIRA GPH 769, values used for
handicap should be de DIFFERENCES on GPH
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
Yiannis & Jamie,
Caveat to the following - this is the first time I have looked at ToD
handicapping, so I may be completely of beam. Apologies in advance if
so.
I have had a look at the ORC web site ()
and the rating values look plausible (). I also
followed the link () to their
scoring options and using the information on their web site the
calculations Sailwave is doing appear correct. The ORC web site does
not say in what units the distance is measured, but are they nautical
miles or statute miles! I would assume nautical.
What Sailwave seems to be doing when sorting corrected times is taking
the value of the corrected time ignoring any plus (+) or minus (-)
sign. I would have expected that all corrected times would be a
positive value and therefore no problem with sorting on corrected
times, but when negative times occur it has highlighted a boundary
condition that was possibly not anticipated. My supposition, of ignoring sign of corrected time, is shown on
examination of the Corrected Time column; ‘Glaroni’ given 3rd place has
a positive corrected time but is placed between two boats with negative
corrected times, i.e. ignoring the sign (+ or -) of the corrected time
this would be correct.
Kind regards,
Huw
On 27/03/2010 03:05, Jamie Diamond wrote:
I would politely suggest you speak to the folks who
generated the orc club official certificates. �I still hold the
opinion/belief that the PHRF numbers you have been given via the
certificates already have the distance factored in. �PHRF handicaps
when correctly expressed are in seconds per nautical mile. �Perhaps the
orc races are always the same length 11.6 miles, so the person
preparing the certificates factored it in to make the scoring “easier”.
�PHRF handicaps in the range of 769 thru 901 are so large that they I
cannot imagine them as fitting the definition of seconds per mile. �901
seconds is 15 minutes. �Handicapping a boat 15 minutes per mile simply
does not fit. �The case I present is also supported by the fact that
the corrected time goes negative. �I do not believe that should ever
happen under the PHRF handicapping system.�
I believe that for all normal PHRF handicaps the
Sailwave software performs correctly. �I do think it would be better if
it sorted the negative numbers as all being smaller than the positive
numbers and ordered the boats correctly based on the handicap numbers
you provided (and it did not sort the negative numbers correctly, I
will agree with you on that) but I also think that it is only because
of the negative numbers that we found out that something is wrong with
the PHRF numbers you are using and that needs to be corrected to
provide fair race scoring to the orc racers.
Best of Luck and do try to check with your local PHRF
folks.
�
Jamie goodevening,
the�PHRF numbers used are the numbers refered on the orc club official
certificates.
the calculation is correct. I did it manually as well. The numbers are
negative. The problem is that the competitors are
not scored correctly.
Best regards
Yiannis
�
Subject: Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
�
Yiannis,
Those PHRF numbers seem awfully high. �I think that
might be your problem. �When I look at boat number 2 “VANDOME” and take
his PHRF number of 788, multiply it by the distance of the race 11.6,
that yields a total handicap of 9140.8 seconds or something like 2.5
hours! �I am guessing that what you entered as the PHRF number was
really the boats total handicap which would be PHRF * distance.
Sailwave will multiply the PHRF number by the distance
for you. �The PHRF number you put in for each boat should be its
handicap per unit of distance, not already multiplied by the distance.
�Alternatively, if you have already calculated all PHRFs based on the
length of the race you could go into the “Edit Race” and set the race
length to 1 and although it would be entered wrong you should get the
right answer in the end.
I�know that your very busy with the new
sailwave set up but I had no respond from anybody and if you can help
me I will�highly appreciate it.
I face a problem when I score an offshore
race using time on distance scoring system.
The program calculates the corrected times�( even negative values
)correctly but it sorts and scores the competitors wrong. It scores
them exactly the other way around !!!
Any ideas
Yiannis Papazoglou
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Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
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I think I now understand but it is not explained on the ORC web site
that a reference boat has to be decided and that the ToD value in the
equation [ c = e - (ToD * Distance) is, or should be, a difference
value [ORC ToD reference boat - ORC ToD specific boat]. On the ORC web
site sample certificate page (http://www.orc.org/clubcert.htm) under
the scoring section it just shows Time on Distance values for Offshore
(Coastal/Long Distance) and Inshore (windward / Leeward).
As has been shown Sailwave will not produce expected results as in the
case raised by Yiannis. How Colin could cope with this scenario I don’t
know.
Kind regards,
Huw
On 27/03/2010 12:02, Philippe DE TROY wrote:
I understand, and
I’m telling just the same as ORC, but ToD is NOT GPH (General purpose
Handicap)
The principle is
that you define a reference boat, usually the fastest of the fleet, of
if there are groups, the top limit of the group, or a “symbolic” value
like 800 or 750, then you substract this value from all GPH to get the
ToD in sec/M. And there is no problem any more.
You were using
PHRF, someone told the GPH numbers were unusually high… this is the
reason why.
Corrected time is calculated by the distance coefficient as follows:*
Corrected time = Elapsed time -
(ToD * Distance)
This is the most popular method of
calculating corrected time. With Time on distance (ToD), the
coefficient of time allowance of one boat will not change with wind
velocity, but will change with length of the course. One boat will be
always be giving to another the same handicap in s/NM, and it is easy
to calculate the difference in elapsed time between two boats needed
for a win in corrected time. The ToD method is best used in constant
wind conditions.
From what you have said this is not the correct formula to use.
Kind regards, Huw
On 27/03/2010 11:19, Philippe DE TROY wrote:
ORC works with
nautical miles.
Time on
Distance is not the usual method of ranking, the numbers are give to
distribute boats into groups of similar performance.
The formula
used gives correct results, reference time for GAVINA is 11.6 * 901.7 =
10460 s or 02:54:20, so the boat was 0:01:26 slow on reference time.
But this
result may not be labelled as “corrected time”.
There should
be a reference boat defines, existing or virtual.
Example : if
the reference boat is the fastest one, ALMIRA GPH 769, values used for
handicap should be de DIFFERENCES on GPH
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
Yiannis & Jamie,
Caveat to the following - this is the first time I have looked at ToD
handicapping, so I may be completely of beam. Apologies in advance if
so.
I have had a look at the ORC web site (www.orc.org)
and the rating values look plausible (http://www.orc.org/clubcert.htm). I also
followed the link (http://www.orc.org/clubscoring.htm) to their
scoring options and using the information on their web site the
calculations Sailwave is doing appear correct. The ORC web site does
not say in what units the distance is measured, but are they nautical
miles or statute miles! I would assume nautical.
What Sailwave seems to be doing when sorting corrected times is taking
the value of the corrected time ignoring any plus (+) or minus (-)
sign. I would have expected that all corrected times would be a
positive value and therefore no problem with sorting on corrected
times, but when negative times occur it has highlighted a boundary
condition that was possibly not anticipated.
RACE1 - 27/06/09 at
Start: Start 1, Finishes: Finish time,
Time: 14:05:00, Distance: 11.6
My supposition, of ignoring sign of corrected time, is shown on
examination of the Corrected Time column; ‘Glaroni’ given 3rd place has
a positive corrected time but is placed between two boats with negative
corrected times, i.e. ignoring the sign (+ or -) of the corrected time
this would be correct.
Kind regards,
Huw
On 27/03/2010 03:05, Jamie Diamond wrote:
Yiannis,
I would politely suggest you speak to the folks who
generated the orc club official certificates. I still hold the
opinion/belief that the PHRF numbers you have been given via the
certificates already have the distance factored in. PHRF handicaps
when correctly expressed are in seconds per nautical mile. Perhaps the
orc races are always the same length 11.6 miles, so the person
preparing the certificates factored it in to make the scoring “easier”.
PHRF handicaps in the range of 769 thru 901 are so large that they I
cannot imagine them as fitting the definition of seconds per mile. 901
seconds is 15 minutes. Handicapping a boat 15 minutes per mile simply
does not fit. The case I present is also supported by the fact that
the corrected time goes negative. I do not believe that should ever
happen under the PHRF handicapping system.
I believe that for all normal PHRF handicaps the
Sailwave software performs correctly. I do think it would be better if
it sorted the negative numbers as all being smaller than the positive
numbers and ordered the boats correctly based on the handicap numbers
you provided (and it did not sort the negative numbers correctly, I
will agree with you on that) but I also think that it is only because
of the negative numbers that we found out that something is wrong with
the PHRF numbers you are using and that needs to be corrected to
provide fair race scoring to the orc racers.
Best of Luck and do try to check with your local PHRF
folks.
Jamie Diamond
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 1:22 PM, > > > > > > ioannis papazoglou ypapazoglou@hotmail.com > > > > > > wrote:
Jamie goodevening,
the PHRF numbers used are the numbers refered on the orc club official
certificates.
the calculation is correct. I did it manually as well. The numbers are
negative. The problem is that the competitors are
not scored correctly.
Best regards
Yiannis
Subject: Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
Yiannis,
Those PHRF numbers seem awfully high. I think that
might be your problem. When I look at boat number 2 “VANDOME” and take
his PHRF number of 788, multiply it by the distance of the race 11.6,
that yields a total handicap of 9140.8 seconds or something like 2.5
hours! I am guessing that what you entered as the PHRF number was
really the boats total handicap which would be PHRF * distance.
Sailwave will multiply the PHRF number by the distance
for you. The PHRF number you put in for each boat should be its
handicap per unit of distance, not already multiplied by the distance.
Alternatively, if you have already calculated all PHRFs based on the
length of the race you could go into the “Edit Race” and set the race
length to 1 and although it would be entered wrong you should get the
right answer in the end.
I know that your very busy with the new
sailwave set up but I had no respond from anybody and if you can help
me I will highly appreciate it.
I face a problem when I score an offshore
race using time on distance scoring system.
The program calculates the corrected times ( even negative values
)correctly but it sorts and scores the competitors wrong. It scores
them exactly the other way around !!!
Any ideas
Yiannis Papazoglou
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Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by
Microsoft. Get it now.
I think I now understand but it is not explained on the ORC web site that a reference boat has to be decided and that the ToD value in the equation [ c = e - (ToD * Distance) is, or should be, a difference value [ORC ToD reference boat - ORC ToD specific boat]. On the ORC web site sample certificate page ([http://www.orc.org/clubcert.htm](http://www.orc.org/clubcert.htm) ) under the scoring section it just shows Time on Distance values for Offshore (Coastal/Long Distance) and Inshore (windward / Leeward).
As has been shown Sailwave will not produce expected results as in the case raised by Yiannis. How Colin could cope with this scenario I don't know.
Kind regards,
Huw
On 27/03/2010 12:02, Philippe DE TROY wrote:
I understand, and I'm telling just the same as ORC, but ToD is NOT GPH (General purpose Handicap)
The principle is that you define a reference boat, usually the fastest of the fleet, of if there are groups, the top limit of the group, or a "symbolic" value like 800 or 750, then you substract this value from all GPH to get the ToD in sec/M. And there is no problem any more.
You were using PHRF, someone told the GPH numbers were unusually high... this is the reason why.
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
Hi Phil,
Thanks for the information but I am still confused. I will go back and re-read your information.
The following is from the ORC web site ([http://www.orc.org/clubscoring.htm](http://www.orc.org/clubscoring.htm))
*** Time on Distance***
Corrected time is calculated by the distance coefficient as follows:*
_ Corrected time = Elapsed time - (ToD * Distance)_
This is the most popular method of calculating corrected time. With Time on distance (ToD), the coefficient of time allowance of one boat will not change with wind velocity, but will change with length of the course. One boat will be always be giving to another the same handicap in s/NM, and it is easy to calculate the difference in elapsed time between two boats needed for a win in corrected time. The ToD method is best used in constant wind conditions.*
From what you have said this is not the correct formula to use.
Kind regards, Huw
On 27/03/2010 11:19, Philippe DE TROY wrote:
ORC works with nautical miles.
Time on Distance is not the usual method of ranking, the numbers are give to distribute boats into groups of similar performance.
The formula used gives correct results, reference time for GAVINA is 11.6 * 901.7 = 10460 s or 02:54:20, so the boat was 0:01:26 slow on reference time.
But this result may not be labelled as "corrected time".
There should be a reference boat defines, existing or virtual.
Example : if the reference boat is the fastest one, ALMIRA GPH 769, values used for handicap should be de DIFFERENCES on GPH
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
Yiannis & Jamie,
Caveat to the following - this is the first time I have looked at ToD handicapping, so I may be completely of beam. Apologies in advance if so.
I have had a look at the ORC web site ([www.orc.org](http://www.orc.org) ) and the rating values look plausible ([http://www.orc.org/clubcert.htm](http://www.orc.org/clubcert.htm) ). I also followed the link ([http://www.orc.org/clubscoring.htm](http://www.orc.org/clubscoring.htm) ) to their scoring options and using the information on their web site the calculations Sailwave is doing appear correct. The ORC web site does not say in what units the distance is measured, but are they nautical miles or statute miles! I would assume nautical.
What Sailwave seems to be doing when sorting corrected times is taking the value of the corrected time ignoring any plus (+) or minus (-) sign. I would have expected that all corrected times would be a positive value and therefore no problem with sorting on corrected times, but when negative times occur it has highlighted a boundary condition that was possibly not anticipated.
RACE1 - 27/06/09 at
Start: Start 1, Finishes: Finish time, Time: 14:05:00, Distance: 11.6
My supposition, of ignoring sign of corrected time, is shown on examination of the Corrected Time column; 'Glaroni' given 3rd place has a positive corrected time but is placed between two boats with negative corrected times, i.e. ignoring the sign (+ or -) of the corrected time this would be correct.
Kind regards,
Huw
On 27/03/2010 03:05, Jamie Diamond wrote:
Yiannis,
I would politely suggest you speak to the folks who generated the orc club official certificates. I still hold the opinion/belief that the PHRF numbers you have been given via the certificates already have the distance factored in. PHRF handicaps when correctly expressed are in seconds per nautical mile. Perhaps the orc races are always the same length 11.6 miles, so the person preparing the certificates factored it in to make the scoring "easier". PHRF handicaps in the range of 769 thru 901 are so large that they I cannot imagine them as fitting the definition of seconds per mile. 901 seconds is 15 minutes. Handicapping a boat 15 minutes per mile simply does not fit. The case I present is also supported by the fact that the corrected time goes negative. I do not believe that should ever happen under the PHRF handicapping system.
I believe that for all normal PHRF handicaps the Sailwave software performs correctly. I do think it would be better if it sorted the negative numbers as all being smaller than the positive numbers and ordered the boats correctly based on the handicap numbers you provided (and it did not sort the negative numbers correctly, I will agree with you on that) but I also think that it is only because of the negative numbers that we found out that something is wrong with the PHRF numbers you are using and that needs to be corrected to provide fair race scoring to the orc racers.
Best of Luck and do try to check with your local PHRF folks.
Jamie Diamond
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 1:22 PM, ioannis papazoglou <ypapazoglou@hotmail.com> wrote:
Jamie goodevening,
the PHRF numbers used are the numbers refered on the orc club official certificates.
the calculation is correct. I did it manually as well. The numbers are negative. The problem is that the competitors are
not scored correctly.
Best regards
Yiannis
Subject: Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
Yiannis,
Those PHRF numbers seem awfully high. I think that might be your problem. When I look at boat number 2 "VANDOME" and take his PHRF number of 788, multiply it by the distance of the race 11.6, that yields a total handicap of 9140.8 seconds or something like 2.5 hours! I am guessing that what you entered as the PHRF number was really the boats total handicap which would be PHRF * distance.
Sailwave will multiply the PHRF number by the distance for you. The PHRF number you put in for each boat should be its handicap per unit of distance, not already multiplied by the distance. Alternatively, if you have already calculated all PHRFs based on the length of the race you could go into the "Edit Race" and set the race length to 1 and although it would be entered wrong you should get the right answer in the end.
I know that your very busy with the new sailwave set up but I had no respond from anybody and if you can help me I will highly appreciate it.
I face a problem when I score an offshore race using time on distance scoring system.
The program calculates the corrected times ( even negative values )correctly but it sorts and scores the competitors wrong. It scores them exactly the other way around !!!
Any ideas
Yiannis Papazoglou
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. [Sign up now.](https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969)
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.
I think I now understand but it is not explained on the ORC web site
that a reference boat has to be decided and that the ToD value in the
equation [ c = e - (ToD * Distance) is, or should be, a difference
value [ORC ToD reference boat - ORC ToD specific boat]. On the ORC web
site sample certificate page (http://www.orc.org/clubcert.htm)
under the scoring section it just shows Time on Distance values for
Offshore (Coastal/Long Distance) and Inshore (windward / Leeward).
As has been shown Sailwave will not produce expected results as in the
case raised by Yiannis. How Colin could cope with this scenario I don’t
know.
Kind regards,
Huw
On 27/03/2010 12:02, Philippe DE TROY wrote:
�
I
understand, and I’m telling just the same as ORC, but ToD is NOT GPH
(General purpose Handicap)
The
principle is that you define a reference boat, usually the fastest of
the fleet, of if there are groups, the top limit of the group, or a
“symbolic” value like 800 or 750, then you substract this value
from�all GPH to get the ToD in sec/M.� And there is no problem any
more.�
�
You were
using PHRF, someone told the�GPH numbers were unusually high… this is
the reason why.�
Corrected time is calculated by the distance coefficient as follows:*
Corrected time = Elapsed time - (ToD *
Distance)
This is the most popular method of
calculating corrected time. With Time on distance (ToD), the
coefficient of time allowance of one boat will not change with wind
velocity, but will change with length of the course. One boat will be
always be giving to another the same handicap in s/NM, and it is easy
to calculate the difference in elapsed time between two boats needed
for a win in corrected time. The ToD method is best used in constant
wind conditions.
From what you have said this is not the correct formula to use.
Kind regards, Huw
On 27/03/2010 11:19, Philippe DE TROY wrote:
�
ORC
works with nautical miles.�
Time on
Distance is not the usual method of ranking, the numbers are give to
distribute boats into groups of similar performance.�
�
The
formula used gives correct results, reference time for GAVINA is 11.6 *
901.7 = 10460 s or 02:54:20, so the boat was 0:01:26 slow on reference
time.
But this
result may not be labelled as “corrected time”.
�
There
should be a reference boat defines, existing or virtual.�
Example
: if the reference boat is the fastest one, ALMIRA GPH 769, values used
for handicap should be de DIFFERENCES on GPH
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
Yiannis & Jamie,
Caveat to the following - this is the first time I have looked at ToD
handicapping, so I may be completely of beam. Apologies in advance if
so.
I have had a look at the ORC web site (www.orc.org) and the
rating values look plausible (http://www.orc.org/clubcert.htm).
I also followed the link (http://www.orc.org/clubscoring.htm)
to their scoring options and using the information on their web site
the calculations Sailwave is doing appear correct. The ORC web site
does not say in what units the distance is measured, but are they
nautical miles or statute miles! I would assume nautical.
What Sailwave seems to be doing when sorting corrected times is taking
the value of the corrected time ignoring any plus (+) or minus (-)
sign. I would have expected that all corrected times would be a
positive value and therefore no problem with sorting on corrected
times, but when negative times occur it has highlighted a boundary
condition that was possibly not anticipated.
RACE1�-�27/06/09�at�
Start: Start 1, Finishes: Finish time, Time:
14:05:00, Distance: 11.6
My supposition, of ignoring sign of corrected time, is shown on
examination of the Corrected Time column; ‘Glaroni’ given 3rd place has
a positive corrected time but is placed between two boats with negative
corrected times, i.e. ignoring the sign (+ or -) of the corrected time
this would be correct.
Kind regards,
Huw
On 27/03/2010 03:05, Jamie Diamond wrote:
�
Yiannis,
I would politely suggest you speak to the folks
who generated the orc club official certificates. �I still hold the
opinion/belief that the PHRF numbers you have been given via the
certificates already have the distance factored in. �PHRF handicaps
when correctly expressed are in seconds per nautical mile. �Perhaps the
orc races are always the same length 11.6 miles, so the person
preparing the certificates factored it in to make the scoring “easier”.
�PHRF handicaps in the range of 769 thru 901 are so large that they I
cannot imagine them as fitting the definition of seconds per mile. �901
seconds is 15 minutes. �Handicapping a boat 15 minutes per mile simply
does not fit. �The case I present is also supported by the fact that
the corrected time goes negative. �I do not believe that should ever
happen under the PHRF handicapping system.�
I believe that for all normal PHRF handicaps the
Sailwave software performs correctly. �I do think it would be better if
it sorted the negative numbers as all being smaller than the positive
numbers and ordered the boats correctly based on the handicap numbers
you provided (and it did not sort the negative numbers correctly, I
will agree with you on that) but I also think that it is only because
of the negative numbers that we found out that something is wrong with
the PHRF numbers you are using and that needs to be corrected to
provide fair race scoring to the orc racers.
Best of Luck and do try to check with your local
PHRF folks.
Jamie Diamond
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 1:22 > > > > > > > > PM, ioannis papazoglou ypapazoglou@hotmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote:
�
Jamie goodevening,
the�PHRF numbers used are the numbers refered on the orc club official
certificates.
the calculation is correct. I did it manually as well. The numbers are
negative. The problem is that the competitors are
not scored correctly.
Best regards
Yiannis
�
Subject: Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
�
Yiannis,
Those PHRF numbers seem awfully high. �I think
that might be your problem. �When I look at boat number 2 “VANDOME” and
take his PHRF number of 788, multiply it by the distance of the race
11.6, that yields a total handicap of 9140.8 seconds or something like
2.5 hours! �I am guessing that what you entered as the PHRF number was
really the boats total handicap which would be PHRF * distance.
Sailwave will multiply the PHRF number by the
distance for you. �The PHRF number you put in for each boat should be
its handicap per unit of distance, not already multiplied by the
distance. �Alternatively, if you have already calculated all PHRFs
based on the length of the race you could go into the “Edit Race” and
set the race length to 1 and although it would be entered wrong you
should get the right answer in the end.
Best Regards,
Jamie Diamond
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 2:37 AM, ioannis > > > > > > > > > papazoglou ipapazoglou@wdd.moa.gov.cy > > > > > > > > > wrote:
�
[Attachment(s) from ioannis papazoglou included
below]
Good
morning,
Please
find attached a test for offshore races. The data are real and is from
last years national championship.
I�know that your very busy with the new
sailwave set up but I had no respond from anybody and if you can help
me I will�highly appreciate it.
I face a problem when I score an offshore
race using time on distance scoring system.
The program calculates the corrected times�( even negative values
)correctly but it sorts and scores the competitors wrong. It scores
them exactly the other way around !!!
Any ideas
Yiannis Papazoglou
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows
Live Hotmail Free. Sign
up now.
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by
Microsoft. Get
it now.
I think I now understand but it is not explained on the ORC web site that a reference boat has to be decided and that the ToD value in the equation [ c = e - (ToD * Distance) is, or should be, a difference value [ORC ToD reference boat - ORC ToD specific boat]. On the ORC web site sample certificate page (http://www.orc.org/clubcert.htm) under the scoring section it just shows Time on Distance values for Offshore (Coastal/Long Distance) and Inshore (windward / Leeward).
As has been shown Sailwave will not produce expected results as in the case raised by Yiannis. How Colin could cope with this scenario I don’t know.
Kind regards,
Huw
On 27/03/2010 12:02, Philippe DE TROY wrote:
I understand, and I’m telling just the same as ORC, but ToD is NOT GPH (General purpose Handicap)
The principle is that you define a reference boat, usually the fastest of the fleet, of if there are groups, the top limit of the group, or a “symbolic” value like 800 or 750, then you substract this value from all GPH to get the ToD in sec/M. And there is no problem any more.
You were using PHRF, someone told the GPH numbers were unusually high… this is the reason why.
Time on Distance Corrected time is calculated by the distance coefficient as follows:
Corrected time = Elapsed time - (ToD * Distance) This is the most popular method of calculating corrected time. With Time on distance (ToD), the coefficient of time allowance of one boat will not change with wind velocity, but will change with length of the course. One boat will be always be giving to another the same handicap in s/NM, and it is easy to calculate the difference in elapsed time between two boats needed for a win in corrected time. The ToD method is best used in constant wind conditions.
From what you have said this is not the correct formula to use.
Kind regards, Huw
On 27/03/2010 11:19, Philippe DE TROY wrote:
ORC works with nautical miles.
Time on Distance is not the usual method of ranking, the numbers are give to distribute boats into groups of similar performance.
The formula used gives correct results, reference time for GAVINA is 11.6 * 901.7 = 10460 s or 02:54:20, so the boat was 0:01:26 slow on reference time.
But this result may not be labelled as “corrected time”.
There should be a reference boat defines, existing or virtual.
Example : if the reference boat is the fastest one, ALMIRA GPH 769, values used for handicap should be de DIFFERENCES on GPH
Subject: Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
Yiannis & Jamie,
Caveat to the following - this is the first time I have looked at ToD handicapping, so I may be completely of beam. Apologies in advance if so.
I have had a look at the ORC web site (www.orc.org) and the rating values look plausible (http://www.orc.org/clubcert.htm). I also followed the link (http://www.orc.org/clubscoring.htm) to their scoring options and using the information on their web site the calculations Sailwave is doing appear correct. The ORC web site does not say in what units the distance is measured, but are they nautical miles or statute miles! I would assume nautical.
What Sailwave seems to be doing when sorting corrected times is taking the value of the corrected time ignoring any plus (+) or minus (-) sign. I would have expected that all corrected times would be a positive value and therefore no problem with sorting on corrected times, but when negative times occur it has highlighted a boundary condition that was possibly not anticipated.
RACE1 - 27/06/09 at
Start: Start 1, Finishes: Finish time, Time: 14:05:00, Distance: 11.6
My supposition, of ignoring sign of corrected time, is shown on examination of the Corrected Time column; ‘Glaroni’ given 3rd place has a positive corrected time but is placed between two boats with negative corrected times, i.e. ignoring the sign (+ or -) of the corrected time this would be correct.
Kind regards,
Huw
On 27/03/2010 03:05, Jamie Diamond wrote:
Yiannis,
I would politely suggest you speak to the folks who generated the orc club official certificates. I still hold the opinion/belief that the PHRF numbers you have been given via the certificates already have the distance factored in. PHRF handicaps when correctly expressed are in seconds per nautical mile. Perhaps the orc races are always the same length 11.6 miles, so the person preparing the certificates factored it in to make the scoring “easier”. PHRF handicaps in the range of 769 thru 901 are so large that they I cannot imagine them as fitting the definition of seconds per mile. 901 seconds is 15 minutes. Handicapping a boat 15 minutes per mile simply does not fit. The case I present is also supported by the fact that the corrected time goes negative. I do not believe that should ever happen under the PHRF handicapping system.
I believe that for all normal PHRF handicaps the Sailwave software performs correctly. I do think it would be better if it sorted the negative numbers as all being smaller than the positive numbers and ordered the boats correctly based on the handicap numbers you provided (and it did not sort the negative numbers correctly, I will agree with you on that) but I also think that it is only because of the negative numbers that we found out that something is wrong with the PHRF numbers you are using and that needs to be corrected to provide fair race scoring to the orc racers.
Best of Luck and do try to check with your local PHRF folks.
Jamie goodevening,
the PHRF numbers used are the numbers refered on the orc club official certificates.
the calculation is correct. I did it manually as well. The numbers are negative. The problem is that the competitors are
not scored correctly.
Best regards
Yiannis
Subject: Re: [sailwave] problems in scoring offshore races
Yiannis,
Those PHRF numbers seem awfully high. I think that might be your problem. When I look at boat number 2 “VANDOME” and take his PHRF number of 788, multiply it by the distance of the race 11.6, that yields a total handicap of 9140.8 seconds or something like 2.5 hours! I am guessing that what you entered as the PHRF number was really the boats total handicap which would be PHRF * distance.
Sailwave will multiply the PHRF number by the distance for you. The PHRF number you put in for each boat should be its handicap per unit of distance, not already multiplied by the distance. Alternatively, if you have already calculated all PHRFs based on the length of the race you could go into the “Edit Race” and set the race length to 1 and although it would be entered wrong you should get the right answer in the end.
I know that your very busy with the new sailwave set up but I had no respond from anybody and if you can help me I will highly appreciate it.
I face a problem when I score an offshore race using time on distance scoring system.
The program calculates the corrected times ( even negative values )correctly but it sorts and scores the competitors wrong. It scores them exactly the other way around !!!
Any ideas
Yiannis Papazoglou
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I may be way off here but there seems to be a lot of discussion that is interchanging PHRF and ORC. They are 2 different handicap systems. If one is using PHRF use the conversion formulas to get a PHRF rating and then score using PHRF.
Here is a link to the conversion formula at PHRFNE http://www.phrfne.org/page/570
Caveat to the following - this is the first time I have looked at ToD
handicapping, so I may be completely of beam. Apologies in advance if so.
I have had a look at the ORC web site (www.orc.org) and the rating
values look plausible (http://www.orc.org/clubcert.htm). I also followed
the link (http://www.orc.org/clubscoring.htm) to their scoring options
and using the information on their web site the calculations Sailwave is
doing appear correct. The ORC web site does not say in what units the
distance is measured, but are they nautical miles or statute miles! I
would assume nautical.
What Sailwave seems to be doing when sorting corrected times is taking
the value of the corrected time ignoring any plus (+) or minus (-) sign.
I would have expected that all corrected times would be a positive value
and therefore no problem with sorting on corrected times, but when
negative times occur it has highlighted a boundary condition that was
possibly not anticipated.
OK This gives the formula for IMS and these are similar to ORC : PHRF = IMS GPH - 550 or PHRF = - 480 + 0.9 * IMS GPH
The constant 550 does not affect the final result, it just moves the scale of corrected times downwards.
This is NOT necessary in a "all-ORC" fleet
In a mixed PHRF-ORC fleet, probably the second formula could give slightly different results (but not in the present case)
Phil
···
----- Original Message ----- From: "phinnros" <phinnros@nbnet.nb.ca>
To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 2:26 PM
Subject: [sailwave] Re: problems in scoring offshore races
I may be way off here but there seems to be a lot of discussion that is interchanging PHRF and ORC. They are 2 different handicap systems. If one is using PHRF use the conversion formulas to get a PHRF rating and then score using PHRF.
Here is a link to the conversion formula at PHRFNE http://www.phrfne.org/page/570
Caveat to the following - this is the first time I have looked at ToD
handicapping, so I may be completely of beam. Apologies in advance if so.
I have had a look at the ORC web site (www.orc.org) and the rating
values look plausible (http://www.orc.org/clubcert.htm). I also followed
the link (http://www.orc.org/clubscoring.htm) to their scoring options
and using the information on their web site the calculations Sailwave is
doing appear correct. The ORC web site does not say in what units the
distance is measured, but are they nautical miles or statute miles! I
would assume nautical.
What Sailwave seems to be doing when sorting corrected times is taking
the value of the corrected time ignoring any plus (+) or minus (-) sign.
I would have expected that all corrected times would be a positive value
and therefore no problem with sorting on corrected times, but when
negative times occur it has highlighted a boundary condition that was
possibly not anticipated.
I think you may have missed the point of the discussion. Both PHRF and ORC Club use Time on Distance type scoring. Sailwave apparently cannot score ORC Club although it can score PHRF.
The reason is that PHRF ToD scoring is standard - like IRC and every other rating system I've ever heard of. It converts everyone's time into an equivalent time for some base boat. So if the average boats sail the course in 1 hour everyone's time will be converted to look like a boat that would typically sail the course in say 50 minutes. In other words, if you sail around the course at the speed predicted for your boat (which is say one hour) then your corrected time will be say 50 minutes.
ORC Club is different and unique. If you sail around the course in the speed predicted for your boat then your corrected "time" will be zero (00:00:00). That means about half the boats should have negative corrected time. In the real world we would describe that as time travel - finishing a race before you have started it!
I wouldn't try to actually and really "convert" ORC ratings into PHRF ratings as that is a subtle and sophisticated process. Instead, I would treat ORC Club ratings like PHRF ratings for scoring only and then score using Sailwave's PHRF ToD scoring. The way to do that is subtract some constant number from every GPH, say 600. Then every boat will have a positive corrected time that is close at least close to the actual time for the race.
Art Los Angeles
PS - I am guessing that ORC ToD was developed by some marketing people who don't actually sail as the concept of negative corrected times will NOT be understood by the sailors.
phinnros wrote:
···
I may be way off here but there seems to be a lot of discussion that is interchanging PHRF and ORC. They are 2 different handicap systems. If one is using PHRF use the conversion formulas to get a PHRF rating and then score using PHRF. Here is a link to the conversion formula at PHRFNE http://www.phrfne.org/page/570
Caveat to the following - this is the first time I have looked at ToD handicapping, so I may be completely of beam. Apologies in advance if so.
I have had a look at the ORC web site (www.orc.org) and the rating values look plausible (http://www.orc.org/clubcert.htm). I also followed the link (http://www.orc.org/clubscoring.htm) to their scoring options and using the information on their web site the calculations Sailwave is doing appear correct. The ORC web site does not say in what units the distance is measured, but are they nautical miles or statute miles! I would assume nautical.
What Sailwave seems to be doing when sorting corrected times is taking the value of the corrected time ignoring any plus (+) or minus (-) sign. I would have expected that all corrected times would be a positive value and therefore no problem with sorting on corrected times, but when negative times occur it has highlighted a boundary condition that was possibly not anticipated.
