Fw: [sailwave] Re: Boats one-second apart incorrectly shown as tied

Imported from Yahoo
1

Exactly Mike!

If Laser 167406 sneaks the overlap on Laser 189634 at the lee mark and sprints for the nearby line, gaining a place by just a few feet, he’s not going to be happy to be told afterward “it was a tie” because there was also a Topper in the race so “handicap rules apply”. No club I’ve ever sailed in would do that.

And the secondary point, if 189634 has 2 seconds added to his finish time (handicap > 1000 so 1 second won’t do) to force the result system to break the tie, and then said Topper beats him by 1 second, his bad day will get a whole lot worse, as will that of the race committee who falsified his time!

Ian.

···

From: Patricia Butterfield

Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 2:47 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Boats one-second apart incorrectly shown as tied

Guys

Lets make life easy.

Let the program work out ties, do not try to apply who was first on the water.

Go back to the rule book. Appendix A A7 boats are scored on corrected time.

The RYA PY instructions say “If two or more boats have identical corrected times, they have the same race position placing and the next boat place is two or more behind.”

If IRC Rule 12.2 says you round to 0.5

Pleas do not fiddle an impose Redress hearings on a Protest Committee.

Mike Butterfield IU IJ IRO

If you want your nose in front on the water sail OD, if not take the consequences.

From: Ian Savell

Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 2:25 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Boats one-second apart incorrectly shown as tied

On 18 July 2011 13:27, Mike mike.croker@phonecoop.coop wrote:

As results transcriber (from on-paper calculations done live into Sailwave) I cross check the results for errors (on both sides). In the case of a handicap race fleet where identically handicapped boats with differing finish times were given a tie (in Sailwave), then I would add / subtract a second to re-produce the previously posted (on paper) result. Just a SMOP in SW?
Is anyone here seriously saying that, in such a case (the recorded results do show a difference in place), a tie is a fair result?
Mike
Lancing SC

2

There are clearly two schools of thought here. In that case, how about adding a scoring option, so each club can choose which approach to implement? The default would be the current method, in which ties can happen even if two boats with the same handicap differ by a second at the finish line. The option could be a checkbox that prevents a tie in this case. Based on discussions at our club, the majority of racers would not expect a tie in this case, so we would enable the option. I know you can also do this manually by adding a second to the second boat's time, but that's obviously error prone, and somebody will miss it at some point.

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Patricia Butterfield <pmbutterfield@...> wrote:

From: Patricia Butterfield
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 2:47 PM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Boats one-second apart incorrectly shown as tied

Guys

Lets make life easy.

Let the program work out ties, do not try to apply who was first on the water.

Go back to the rule book. Appendix A A7 boats are scored on corrected time.

The RYA PY instructions say "If two or more boats have identical corrected times, they have the same race position placing and the next boat place is two or more behind."

If IRC Rule 12.2 says you round to 0.5

Pleas do not fiddle an impose Redress hearings on a Protest Committee.

Mike Butterfield IU IJ IRO

If you want your nose in front on the water sail OD, if not take the consequences.

From: Ian Savell
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 2:25 PM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Boats one-second apart incorrectly shown as tied

Exactly Mike!

If Laser 167406 sneaks the overlap on Laser 189634 at the lee mark and sprints for the nearby line, gaining a place by just a few feet, he's not going to be happy to be told afterward "it was a tie" because there was also a Topper in the race so "handicap rules apply". No club I've ever sailed in would do that.

And the secondary point, if 189634 has 2 seconds added to his finish time (handicap > 1000 so 1 second won't do) to force the result system to break the tie, and then said Topper beats him by 1 second, his bad day will get a whole lot worse, as will that of the race committee who falsified his time!

Ian.

On 18 July 2011 13:27, Mike <mike.croker@...> wrote:

  As results transcriber (from on-paper calculations done live into Sailwave) I cross check the results for errors (on both sides). In the case of a handicap race fleet where identically handicapped boats with differing finish times were given a tie (in Sailwave), then I would add / subtract a second to re-produce the previously posted (on paper) result. Just a SMOP in SW?
  Is anyone here seriously saying that, in such a case (the recorded results do show a difference in place), a tie is a fair result?
  Mike
  Lancing SC

3

The manual correction is perfect as long as there is no boat one second ahead AND no boat one second astern on corrected time, and results of a series are not calculated on the sum of corrected times (then best apply the handicap on the sum of elapsed times, provided the handicap doesn't change during the series).

But even in the worse case, the committe may also apply the correction to the boat ahead or astern...

Phil

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "jhuus" <jhuus1@gmail.com>
To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 2:50 PM
Subject: Fw: [sailwave] Re: Boats one-second apart incorrectly shown as tied

There are clearly two schools of thought here. In that case, how about adding a scoring option, so each club can choose which approach to implement? The default would be the current method, in which ties can happen even if two boats with the same handicap differ by a second at the finish line. The option could be a checkbox that prevents a tie in this case. Based on discussions at our club, the majority of racers would not expect a tie in this case, so we would enable the option. I know you can also do this manually by adding a second to the second boat's time, but that's obviously error prone, and somebody will miss it at some point.

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Patricia Butterfield <pmbutterfield@...> wrote:

From: Patricia Butterfield
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 2:47 PM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Boats one-second apart incorrectly shown as tied

Guys

Lets make life easy.

Let the program work out ties, do not try to apply who was first on the water.

Go back to the rule book. Appendix A A7 boats are scored on corrected time.

The RYA PY instructions say "If two or more boats have identical corrected times, they have the same race position placing and the next boat place is two or more behind."

If IRC Rule 12.2 says you round to 0.5

Pleas do not fiddle an impose Redress hearings on a Protest Committee.

Mike Butterfield IU IJ IRO

If you want your nose in front on the water sail OD, if not take the consequences.

From: Ian Savell
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 2:25 PM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Boats one-second apart incorrectly shown as tied

Exactly Mike!

If Laser 167406 sneaks the overlap on Laser 189634 at the lee mark and sprints for the nearby line, gaining a place by just a few feet, he's not going to be happy to be told afterward "it was a tie" because there was also a Topper in the race so "handicap rules apply". No club I've ever sailed in would do that.

And the secondary point, if 189634 has 2 seconds added to his finish time (handicap > 1000 so 1 second won't do) to force the result system to break the tie, and then said Topper beats him by 1 second, his bad day will get a whole lot worse, as will that of the race committee who falsified his time!

Ian.

On 18 July 2011 13:27, Mike <mike.croker@...> wrote:

  As results transcriber (from on-paper calculations done live into Sailwave) I cross check the results for errors (on both sides). In the case of a handicap race fleet where identically handicapped boats with differing finish times were given a tie (in Sailwave), then I would add / subtract a second to re-produce the previously posted (on paper) result. Just a SMOP in SW?
  Is anyone here seriously saying that, in such a case (the recorded results do show a difference in place), a tie is a fair result?
  Mike
  Lancing SC

------------------------------------

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