http://www.evoikosailing.gr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=241&Itemid=48
···
Sent from my iPhone
Thank you Bill.
···
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Bill Plymdnos <jasonp66gr@...> wrote:
http://www.evoikosailing.gr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=241&Itemid=48
Sent from my iPhone
Does anyone have the number of Portsmout or handcicap for a SNIPE?
thanks
Francisco J Fernández
Sailing Coach - Team Leader
Club Nautico Atlántico Sud
Pto Madryn -Chubut- Patagonia Arg.
···
De: Bill Plymdnos jasonp66gr@yahoo.gr
Para: “sailwave@yahoogroups.com” sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: lunes, 3 de mayo, 2010 16:35:29
Asunto: [sailwave] Greek characters
http://www.evoikosa iling.gr/ index.php? option=com_ content&task= view&id=241& Itemid=48
Sent from my iPhone
The Classic and Vintage Racing Dinghy Association lists the
Snipe on their pages:- http://www.cvrda.org/dinghydata/Snipe.htm
. I have found the PY numbers given on several of their pages to be at least a
good guide to a useable handicap!
Ian Day
···
From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Fernandez
Sent: 04 May 2010 15:57
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Greek
characters
Does anyone
have the number of Portsmout or handcicap for a SNIPE?
thanks
Francisco
J Fernández
Sailing Coach - Team Leader
Club Nautico Atlántico Sud
Pto Madryn -Chubut- Patagonia Arg.
De: Bill Plymdnos
jasonp66gr@yahoo.gr
Para**:** “sailwave@yahoogroups.com”
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: lunes, 3 de mayo, 2010
16:35:29
Asunto: [sailwave] Greek
characters
http://www.evoikosa iling.gr/ index.php? option=com_
content&task= view&id=241& Itemid=48
Sent from my iPhone
I haven’t found a PY for the Snipe but the French HN rating system
includes Snipes. It should be possible to work out an equivalent rating.
Gordon
Francisco Fernandez wrote:
···
http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/web/pratique/Listing/ratings.asp
Does
anyone have the number of Portsmout or handcicap for a SNIPE?
thanks
Francisco
J FernándezSailing
Coach - Team LeaderClub
Nautico Atlántico SudPto
Madryn -Chubut- Patagonia Arg.
De: Bill
Plymdnos jasonp66gr@yahoo.gr
Para:
“sailwave@yahoogroups.com” sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: lunes, 3 de
mayo, 2010 16:35:29
Asunto: [sailwave]
Greek charactershttp://www.evoikosa
iling.gr/ index.php? option=com_ content&task= view&id=241&
Itemid=48Sent from my iPhone
From the French website
Class HN Time/time
420
D3
420
2
1130
0.885
6
4M
D3
4M
2
1120
0.8929
6.5
SNI
D3
SNIPE
2
1110
0.9009
7
LAS
D3
LASER
1
1100
0.9091
7.5
A snipe is a little faster than a 420 and a little slower than the
Laser.
By playing around with some old results you should get a reasonable
approximation.
PY 420 = 1087
PY Laser = 1080
Gordon
Francisco Fernandez wrote:
···
Does
anyone have the number of Portsmout or handcicap for a SNIPE?
thanks
Francisco
J FernándezSailing
Coach - Team LeaderClub
Nautico Atlántico SudPto
Madryn -Chubut- Patagonia Arg.
De: Bill
Plymdnos jasonp66gr@yahoo.gr
Para:
“sailwave@yahoogroups.com” sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: lunes, 3 de
mayo, 2010 16:35:29
Asunto: [sailwave]
Greek charactershttp://www.evoikosa
iling.gr/ index.php? option=com_ content&task= view&id=241&
Itemid=48Sent from my iPhone
US Sailing list the Portsmouth yardstick of a Snipe as 91.9. For comparison the Laser Full Rig is 91.1.
http://www.ussailing.org/portsmouth/pyindex.asp
Mark Townsend
s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com
···
From: Francisco Fernandez
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Greek characters
Does anyone have the number of Portsmout or handcicap for a SNIPE?
thanks
Francisco J Fernández
Sailing Coach - Team Leader
Club Nautico Atlántico Sud
Pto Madryn -Chubut- Patagonia Arg.
De: Bill Plymdnos jasonp66gr@yahoo.gr
Para: “sailwave@yahoogroups.com” sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: lunes, 3 de mayo, 2010 16:35:29
Asunto: [sailwave] Greek characters
[http://www.evoikosa iling.gr/ index.php? option=com_ content&task= view&id=241& Itemid=48](http://www.evoikosa iling.gr/ index.php? option=com_ content&task= view&id=241& Itemid=48)
Sent from my iPhone
Thanks Gordon, for your help
Francisco J Fernández
Sailing Coach - Team Leader
Club Nautico Atlántico Sud
Pto Madryn -Chubut- Patagonia Arg.
French tables should be now consistent with RYA-PY
With
- 420, PY 1130
- Snipe, PY 1110
- Laser standard PY 1100
Problem is that some peope are still using older PY tables.
Then…
- if your current tables have Laser standard and 420, use Laser + (420 - Laser) /3 or (2 * Laser + 420) /3
- if your current tables have only Laser, Snipe = Laser * 1110 / 1100, this confirms US PY 91.1 * 1110 / 1100 = 91.93
Phil
···
----- Original Message -----
From:
S. Mark Townsend
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Greek characters
US Sailing list the Portsmouth yardstick of a Snipe as 91.9. For comparison the Laser Full Rig is 91.1.
Mark Townsend
s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com
From: Francisco Fernandez
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Greek characters
Does anyone have the number of Portsmout or handcicap for a SNIPE?
thanks
Francisco J Fernández
Sailing Coach - Team Leader
Club Nautico Atlántico Sud
Pto Madryn -Chubut- Patagonia Arg.
De: Bill Plymdnos jasonp66gr@yahoo.gr
Para: "sailwave@yahoogroups.com " sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: lunes, 3 de mayo, 2010 16:35:29
Asunto: [sailwave] Greek characters[ http://www.evoikosa iling.gr/ index.php? option=com_ content&task= view&id=241& Itemid=48](http://www.evoikosa iling.gr/ index.php? option=com_ content&task= view&id=241& Itemid=48)
Sent from my iPhone
Philiippe,
RYA-PY handicap for Laser was changed this year to 1080. see RYA
website:
Gordon
Philippe DE TROY wrote:
···
French tables
should be now consistent with RYA-PY
With
- 420, PY 1130
- Snipe, PY 1110
- Laser standard PY
1100
Problem is that
some peope are still using older PY tables.
Then…
- if your current
tables have Laser standard and 420, use Laser + (420 - Laser) /3 or (2
- Laser + 420) /3
- if your current
tables have only Laser, Snipe = Laser * 1110 / 1100, this confirms US
PY 91.1 * 1110 / 1100 = 91.93
Phil
Original Message -----
From:
S. Mark Townsend
Sent:
Tuesday, May 04, 2010 5:25 PM
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Greek characters
US Sailing list the Portsmouth
yardstick of a Snipe as 91.9. For comparison the Laser Full Rig is 91.1.
Mark Townsend
s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com
From: Francisco Fernandez
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Greek characters
Does anyone have the number of Portsmout or
handcicap for a SNIPE?
thanks
Francisco
J FernándezSailingCoach - Team Leader
ClubNautico Atlántico Sud
PtoMadryn -Chubut- Patagonia Arg.
De:
Bill Plymdnos jasonp66gr@yahoo.gr
Para: “sailwave@yahoogroups.com”
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: lunes, 3 de
mayo, 2010 16:35:29
Asunto: [sailwave]
Greek charactershttp://www.evoikosa iling.gr/
index.php? option=com_ content&task= view&id=241& Itemid=48Sent from my iPhone
In the same table, 420 is 1087 and Snipe disappeared… then according to the very few consistent information, 2/3 Laser + 1/3 420 = 1082.
Sorry I’m giving up, if FFVoile and RYA are claiming their tables are synchronised and they are not there is no solution…
···
----- Original Message -----
From:
gordon
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Greek characters
Philiippe,
RYA-PY handicap for Laser was changed this year to 1080. see RYA website:
Gordon
Philippe DE TROY wrote:
French tables should be now consistent with RYA-PY
With
- 420, PY 1130
- Snipe, PY 1110
- Laser standard PY 1100
Problem is that some peope are still using older PY tables.
Then…
if your current tables have Laser standard and 420, use Laser + (420 - Laser) /3 or (2 * Laser + 420) /3if your current tables have only Laser, Snipe = Laser * 1110 / 1100, this confirms US PY 91.1 * 1110 / 1100 = 91.93Phil
----- Original Message -----
From:
S. Mark Townsend
Sent:
Tuesday, May 04, 2010 5:25 PM
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Greek characters
US Sailing list the Portsmouth yardstick of a Snipe as 91.9. For comparison the Laser Full Rig is 91.1.
Mark Townsend
s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com
From: Francisco Fernandez
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Greek characters
Does anyone have the number of Portsmout or handcicap for a SNIPE?
thanks
Francisco J Fernández Sailing Coach - Team Leader Club Nautico Atlántico Sud Pto Madryn -Chubut- Patagonia Arg.
De: Bill Plymdnos jasonp66gr@yahoo.gr
Para: “sailwave@yahoogroups.com” sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: lunes, 3 de mayo, 2010 16:35:29
Asunto:
[sailwave] Greek charactershttp://www.evoikosa iling.gr/ index.php? option=com_ content&task= view&id=241& Itemid=48
Sent from my iPhone
I understand that he RYA received a hugely increased number of result
returns which engendered these changes.
Gordon
Philippe DE TROY wrote:
···
French tables
should be now consistent with RYA-PY
With
- 420, PY 1130
- Snipe, PY 1110
- Laser
standard PY 1100
Problem is
that some peope are still using older PY tables.
Then…
- if your
current tables have Laser standard and 420, use Laser + (420 - Laser)
/3 or (2 * Laser + 420) /3- if your
current tables have only Laser, Snipe = Laser * 1110 / 1100, this
confirms US PY 91.1 * 1110 / 1100 = 91.93
Phil
Original Message -----
From:
S. Mark Townsend
Sent:
Tuesday, May 04, 2010 5:25 PM
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Greek characters
US Sailing list the Portsmouth
yardstick of a Snipe as 91.9. For comparison the Laser Full Rig is 91.1.
Mark Townsend
s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com
From: Francisco
Fernandez
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Greek characters
Does anyone have the number of Portsmout or
handcicap for a SNIPE?
thanks
Francisco
J FernándezSailingCoach - Team Leader
ClubNautico Atlántico Sud
PtoMadryn -Chubut- Patagonia Arg.
De:
Bill Plymdnos jasonp66gr@yahoo.gr
Para: “sailwave@yahoogroups.com” sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: lunes,
3 de mayo, 2010 16:35:29
Asunto:
[sailwave] Greek charactershttp://www.evoikosa
iling.gr/ index.php? option=com_ content&task= view&id=241&
Itemid=48Sent from my iPhone
But the tables should be changed yearly and exchanged with the French Federation, I’m investigating… Boats like the Laser have millions of results and the average speed doesn’t change by close to 2% in one year.
···
----- Original Message -----
From:
gordon
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Greek characters
I understand that he RYA received a hugely increased number of result returns which engendered these changes.
Gordon
Philippe DE TROY wrote:
In the same table, 420 is 1087 and Snipe disappeared. .. then according to the very few consistent information, 2/3 Laser + 1/3 420 = 1082.
Sorry I'm giving up, if FFVoile and RYA are claiming their tables are synchronised and they are not there is no solution...
----- Original Message -----
From:
gordon
Sent:
Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:07 PM
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Greek characters
Philiippe,
RYA-PY handicap for Laser was changed this year to 1080. see RYA website:Gordon
Philippe DE TROY wrote:
French tables should be now consistent with RYA-PY
With
- 420, PY 1130
- Snipe, PY 1110
Laser standard PY 1100 Problem is that some peope are still using older PY tables.
Then…
if your current tables have Laser standard and 420, use Laser + (420 - Laser) /3 or (2 * Laser + 420) /3if your current tables have only Laser, Snipe = Laser * 1110 / 1100, this confirms US PY 91.1 * 1110 / 1100 = 91.93Phil
----- Original Message -----
From:
S. Mark Townsend
Sent:
Tuesday, May 04, 2010 5:25 PM
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Greek characters
US Sailing list the Portsmouth yardstick of a Snipe as 91.9. For comparison the Laser Full Rig is 91.1.
Mark Townsend
s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com
From: Francisco Fernandez
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Greek characters
Does anyone have the number of Portsmout or handcicap for a SNIPE?
thanks
Francisco J Fernández Sailing Coach - Team Leader Club Nautico Atlántico Sud Pto Madryn -Chubut- Patagonia Arg.
De: Bill Plymdnos jasonp66gr@yahoo.gr
Para: “sailwave@yahoogroups.com” sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: lunes, 3 de mayo, 2010 16:35:29
Asunto:
[sailwave] Greek charactershttp://www.evoikosa iling.gr/ index.php? option=com_ content&task= view&id=241& Itemid=48
Sent from my iPhone
<0.2% 
I saw it as part of a wide ranging readjustment to the PY ratings. However I can't understand how the Laser 1 has got 'slower' relative to several other 'one design' classes, despite all the recent changes which HAVE made the boat easier to sail (for all).
Mike
Lancing SC
···
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Philippe DE TROY" <philippe@...> wrote:
Boats like the Laser have millions of results and the average speed doesn't change by close to 2% in one year.
If you read magazines like Y&Y - it has long been held that the
Laser had a major rating disadvantage in handicap sailing. The RYA’s
calculations, based on club returns, seem to bear this out.
It would seem that the mlatest changes take more account of results
from the major handicap and pursuit races that are such a feature of
the winter sailing scene n the UK. They are useful for handicapping
because of the large number of entries. It would seem that, n order to
maintain consistent results at these meetings competitors should
invest n a small fleet of boats - including a Thames A Rater for the
flat calms and a 420 when its honkng.
Gordon
Mike wrote:
···
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com,
“Philippe DE TROY” <philippe@…> wrote:Boats like the Laser have millions of results and the average
speed doesn’t change by close to 2% in one year.<0.2%
I saw it as part of a wide ranging readjustment to the PY ratings.
However I can’t understand how the Laser 1 has got ‘slower’ relative to
several other ‘one design’ classes, despite all the recent changes
which HAVE made the boat easier to sail (for all).Mike
Lancing SC
For flat water, I’d probably agree, but not on the sea, IME.
Which gets us into PY modification for local conditions, as encouraged, but maybe not promoted strongly enough, by the RYA.
And here be dragons
Mike and others,
Hi, I sit on the Portsmouth Yardstick Advisory Group, the group of people responsible for coming up with PY numbers so if there any questions please feel free to ask. It should be noted, I dont work for the RYA, or have any other vested interests in them though, I am just a volunteer so go easy on me.....
The last published number I could find for the snipe was the RYA list from 2003 and it was 1117 as per the cvrda website shown in an earlier post.
As for the laser getting "slower" in this years list you guys are correct in stating that the laser has an awful lot of returns sent to the RYA. In fact it is the most numerous class. Yes, the laser has had some modifications recently which have reportedly made it easier to sail for everyone, but perhaps not everyone has made the changes to the boat. Clubs returning may often have a mix of older boats sailing that dont have new sails or the latest kit. It has to be remembered that there are many different things that affect the returns, and not all are made from the latest boats with every modification.
Previous years returns may or may not have shown the laser needing to have its number adjusted, however this years certainly did. With the Laser being a primary yardstick it was debated at some length as to whether or not we should be amending the numbers. In the end it was decided that with the implementation of the new electronic returns PYS scheme that we may, in the future, see numbers be a little more fluid than previously. Therefore, there was no reason we could see not to change it by the amount the returns deemed necessary, as we did with other classes, some of which moved more than they might have done historically too.
The beauty of the new returns system made possible through sailwave is that the RYA now receives raw data from each race sent to work from. This is a vast improvement from the old system where clubs could effectively guess what handicap they thought should be used for each class over a year and send that back. More often than not it was easiest to just suggest they kept the same number which was then the only info the RYA had to work from even if it was way out. The new system adjusts the number after every race and feeds that back to the RYA.
So if you are currently scoring races using the PN system and sailwave please, please please enquire about making returns to the PYS if you are not doing so already. It is of benefit to us all to get more returns in to the RYA, and in turn benefits the clubs as the PYS website lets you know what numbers you could be using for your club, based purely on your return alone which could help if you wanted to adjust your club PN's for local conditions, as eluded to in a previous post. The RYA and PYAG would support any club intending to make local adjustments although from first hand experience I know that this can be a tricky thing to get passed a sail committee....
Hope that clarifies some things, and if you have any more questions please feel free to email at cgandy@tiscali.co.uk
As i said before i dont work for the RYA so may not have all the answers but could hopefully point you in the direction of people that do!
Chris
···
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mdcroker@...> wrote:
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Philippe DE TROY" <philippe@> wrote:
>
> Boats like the Laser have millions of results and the average speed doesn't change by close to 2% in one year.<0.2%
I saw it as part of a wide ranging readjustment to the PY ratings. However I can't understand how the Laser 1 has got 'slower' relative to several other 'one design' classes, despite all the recent changes which HAVE made the boat easier to sail (for all).
Mike
Lancing SC