High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

RalphT · 13 June 2008 08:21

I use a high points scoring system where 1st place scores 10 points down to 10th place which scores 1 point.

All other boats in the race score zero points (similar to F1 motor racing scoring system)

If there is a tie break, it is broken based upon Appendix A8 but using points scored instead of places

Because of this this tie breaking system, I cannot use Sailwave, which breaks ties on places.

At the moment I use a spreadsheet for scoring but would really like to use SW

Does anyone have any thoughts on how I might solve the problem?? Apart from changing my tie breaking system!!

Regards

Ralph

Philippe_DE_TROY · 13 June 2008 10:03

Ralph,

Unless there are ties in the races, there should be no differences.

With small fleets, committees are generally able to declare who is ahead, who is astern…

On handicap, there uses to be ties in races even, when PY is over 1000, identical boats with a difference of 1 second may be calculated as ties.

Then indeed, two boats ranked 3 receive 3.5 and is series ties breaking there is a difference… unless you change also this Racing Rule.

Should be sorted out by Colin.

In the EditScoreSystem window, in the tab SeriesRanking, give more options (under [ ] Include discards …, give an option [ ] break ties on scores (non standard)

Phil

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 10:21 AM

Subject: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

I use a high points scoring system where 1st place scores 10 points down to 10th place which scores 1 point.

All other boats in the race score zero points (similar to F1 motor racing scoring system)

If there is a tie break, it is broken based upon Appendix A8 but using points scored instead of places

Because of this this tie breaking system, I cannot use Sailwave, which breaks ties on places.

At the moment I use a spreadsheet for scoring but would really like to use SW

Does anyone have any thoughts on how I might solve the problem?? A part from changing my tie breaking system!!

Regards

Ralph

RalphT · 13 June 2008 10:30

Hi Phil

I don’t think you understand the scoring system I am using - I have changed RRS Appendix A

In an example of 6 boats racing, points scoring would be as follows

3 points for 1st

2 points for 2nd

1 point for 3rd

0 points for 4th, 5th & 6th

In a 3 race series using my system, the following tie can occur - showing points (place)

Boat A 3 (1), 2 (2), 0 (6)

Boat B 2 (2), 3 (1), 0 (5)

Sailwave would break the tie in favour of Boat B because it beat Boat A in race 3

What I need to do is ignore race 3 because both boats had the same points score and award the tie break to Boat B because it scored more points in the race 2 than Boat A

IS THERE AN ERROR IN SAILWAVE???

The issue (I think) is that Sailwave breaks ties on the scored RANK - not scored POINTS

This is normally one and the same thing but in my high points system (where all boats score zero points below a certain rank/finishing place), it causes a problem

I tested SW in the early days of this event and that is where I discovered the problem

What is interesting is that Appendix A refers to scores not finishing places when ‘scoring’ a regatta

If my assessment of SW & RRS is correct, SW is technically wrong, but of course, it never shows up normally

Would be interested to hear what the rules experts say about this interpretation

Regards

Ralph

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe De Troy
Sent: 13 June 2008 11:04
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Ralph,

Unless there are ties in the races, there should be no differences.

With small fleets, committees are generally able to declare who is ahead, who is astern…

On handicap, there uses to be ties in races even, when PY is over 1000, identical boats with a difference of 1 second may be calculated as ties.

Then indeed, two boats ranked 3 receive 3.5 and is series ties breaking there is a difference… unless you change also this Racing Rule.

Should be sorted out by Colin.

In the EditScoreSystem window, in the tab SeriesRanking, give more options (under [ ] Include discards …, give an option [ ] break ties on scores (non standard)

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 10:21 AM

Subject: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

I use a high points scoring system where 1st place scores 10 points down to 10th place which scores 1 point.

All other boats in the race score zero points (similar to F1 motor racing scoring system)

If there is a tie break, it is broken based upon Appendix A8 but using points scored instead of places

Because of this this tie breaking system, I cannot use Sailwave, which breaks ties on places.

At the moment I use a spreadsheet for scoring but would really like to use SW

Does anyone have any thoughts on how I might solve the problem?? A part from changing my tie breaking system!!

Regards

Ralph

Philippe_DE_TROY · 13 June 2008 11:12

Ralph,

ISAF AppA.8.1 states that “If there is a series score tie between two or more boats, each boats race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour of the boat(s) with the best score(s). No excluded scores shall be used.”

It’s clear, if Sailwave breaks ties on ranks, it’s wrong. But…

In you example, AppA.8.1 cannot break the tie, both scores listed in order are 3, 2, 0.

Then AppA.8.2 applies and the tie is not broken on race 3 (both 0), but well on race 2 and boat B wins.

I made a simulation on these data, and just changed the result of race 3 (boat B 6 and boat A 5), and the final result is unaffected.

However, it would be nice to have the opportunity to change from points/score to ranks in SW…

Phil

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 12:30 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Hi Phil

I don’t think you understand the scoring system I am using - I have changed RRS Appendix A

In an example of 6 boats racing, points scoring would be as follows

3 points for 1st

2 points for 2nd

1 point for 3rd

0 points for 4th, 5th & 6th

In a 3 race series using my system, the following tie can occur - showing points (place)

Boat A 3 (1), 2 (2), 0 (6)

Boat B 2 (2), 3 (1), 0 (5)

Sailwave would break the tie in favour of Boat B because it beat Boat A in race 3

What I need to do is ignore race 3 because both boats had the same points score and award the tie break to Boat B because it scored more points in the race 2 than Boat A

IS THERE AN ERROR IN SAILWAVE???

The issue (I think) is that Sailwave breaks ties on the scored RANK - not scored POINTS

This is normally one and the same thing but in my high points system (where all boats score zero points below a certain rank/finishing place), it causes a problem

I tested SW in the early days of this event and that is where I discovered the problem

What is interesting is that Appendix A refers to scores not finishing places when ‘scoring’ a regatta

If my assessment of SW & RRS is correct, SW is technically wrong, but of course, it never shows up normally

Would be interested to hear what the rules experts say about this interpretation

Regards

Ralph

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe De Troy
Sent: 13 June 2008 11:04
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Ralph,

Unless there are ties in the races, there should be no differences.

With small fleets, committees are generally able to declare who is ahead, who is astern…

On handicap, there uses to be ties in races even, when PY is over 1000, identical boats with a difference of 1 second may be calculated as ties.

Then indeed, two boats ranked 3 receive 3.5 and is series ties breaking there is a difference… . unless you change also this Racing Rule.

Should be sorted out by Colin.

In the EditScoreSystem window, in the tab SeriesRanking, give more options (under [ ] Include discards …, give an option [ ] break ties on scores (non standard)

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 10:21 AM

Subject: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

I use a high points scoring system where 1st place scores 10 points down to 10th place which scores 1 point.

All other boats in the race score zero points (similar to F1 motor racing scoring system)

If there is a tie break, it is broken based upon Appendix A8 but using points scored instead of places

Because of this this tie breaking system, I cannot use Sailwave, which breaks ties on places.

At the moment I use a spreadsheet for scoring but would really like to use SW

Does anyone have any thoughts on how I might solve the problem??  A    part from changing my tie breaking system!!

Regards

Ralph

RalphT · 13 June 2008 11:29

Phil

“I made a simulation on these data, and just changed the result of race 3 (boat B 6 and boat A 5), and the final result is unaffected.”

Not sure what test you carried out

Could you give more detail as I am not sure if you are saying that SW works with my scoring system …???

Regards

Ralph

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe De Troy
Sent: 13 June 2008 12:13
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Ralph,

ISAF AppA.8.1 states that “If there is a series score tie between two or more boats, each boat’s race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour of the boat(s) with the best score(s). No excluded scores shall be used.”

It’s clear, if Sailwave breaks ties on ranks, it’s wrong. But…

In you example, AppA.8.1 cannot break the tie, both scores listed in order are 3, 2, 0.

Then AppA.8.2 applies and the tie is not broken on race 3 (both 0), but well on race 2 and boat B wins.

I made a simulation on these data, and just changed the result of race 3 (boat B 6 and boat A 5), and the final result is unaffected.

However, it would be nice to have the opportunity to change from points/score to ranks in SW…

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 12:30 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Hi Phil

I don’t think you understand the scoring system I am using - I have changed RRS Appendix A

In an example of 6 boats racing, points scoring would be as follows

3 points for 1st

2 points for 2nd

1 point for 3rd

0 points for 4th, 5th & 6th

In a 3 race series using my system, the following tie can occur - showing points (place)

Boat A 3 (1), 2 (2), 0 (6)

Boat B 2 (2), 3 (1), 0 (5)

Sailwave would break the tie in favour of Boat B because it beat Boat A in race 3

What I need to do is ignore race 3 because both boats had the same points score and award the tie break to Boat B because it scored more points in the race 2 than Boat A

IS THERE AN ERROR IN SAILWAVE???

The issue (I think) is that Sailwave breaks ties on the scored RANK - not scored POINTS

This is normally one and the same thing but in my high points system (where all boats score zero points below a certain rank/finishing place), it causes a problem

I tested SW in the early days of this event and that is where I discovered the problem

What is interesting is that Appendix A refers to scores not finishing places when ‘scoring’ a regatta

If my assessment of SW & RRS is correct, SW is technically wrong, but of course, it never shows up normally

Would be interested to hear what the rules experts say about this interpretation

Regards

Ralph

From: sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe De Troy
Sent: 13 June 2008 11:04
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Ralph,

Unless there are ties in the races, there should be no differences.

With small fleets, committees are generally able to declare who is ahead, who is astern…

On handicap, there uses to be ties in races even, when PY is over 1000, identical boats with a difference of 1 second may be calculated as ties.

Then indeed, two boats ranked 3 receive 3.5 and is series ties breaking there is a difference… . unless you change also this Racing Rule.

Should be sorted out by Colin.

In the EditScoreSystem window, in the tab SeriesRanking, give more options (under [ ] Include discards …, give an option [ ] break ties on scores (non standard)

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 10:21 AM

Subject: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

I use a high points scoring system where 1st place scores 10 points down to 10th place which scores 1 point.

All other boats in the race score zero points (similar to F1 motor racing scoring system)

If there is a tie break, it is broken based upon Appendix A8 but using points scored instead of places

Because of this this tie breaking system, I cannot use Sailwave, which breaks ties on places.

At the moment I use a spreadsheet for scoring but would really like to use SW

Does anyone have any thoughts on how I might solve the problem??  A    part from changing my tie breaking system!!

Regards

Ralph

Philippe_DE_TROY · 13 June 2008 11:32

Confirmation, when I untick “Apply AppA8.2”, both are ranked as 1 (unable to break the tie)

A general comment on tie breaking is that tere are not enough options…

For the World Championship of the Micro Class, the series format is several insre races and a long-distance race. The Class Regulations state that a tie is broken on the long-distance race, further according to ISAF App A.

This cannot be applied with SW, but works perfectly with other softwares like Freg2007 of the French Sailing Federation…

Phil

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Philippe De Troy

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 1:12 PM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Ralph,

ISAF AppA.8.1 states that “* If there is a series score tie between two or more boats, each boats race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour of the boat(s) with the best score(s) . No excluded scores shall be used.*”

It’s clear, if Sailwave breaks ties on ranks, it’s wrong. But…

In you example, AppA.8.1 cannot break the tie, both scores listed in order are 3, 2, 0.

Then AppA.8.2 applies and the tie is not broken on race 3 (both 0), but well on race 2 and boat B wins.

I made a simulation on these data, and just changed the result of race 3 (boat B 6 and boat A 5), and the final result is unaffected.

However, it would be nice to have the opportunity to change from points/score to ranks in SW…

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 12:30 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Hi Phil

I don't think you understand the scoring system I am using - I have changed RRS Appendix A

In an example of 6 boats racing, points scoring would be as follows

3 points for 1st

2 points for 2nd

1 point for 3rd

0 points for 4th, 5th & 6th

In a 3 race series using my system, the following tie can occur - showing points (place)

Boat A   3 (1),   2 (2),   0 (6)

Boat B   2 (2),   3 (1),   0 (5)

Sailwave would break the tie in favour of Boat B because it beat Boat A in race 3

What I need to do is ignore race 3 because both boats had the same points score and award the tie break to Boat B because it scored more points in the race 2 than Boat A

IS THERE AN ERROR IN SAILWAVE?????

The issue (I think) is that Sailwave breaks ties on the scored RANK - not scored POINTS

This is normally one and the same thing but in my high points system (where all boats score zero points below a certain rank/finishing place), it causes a problem

I tested SW in the early days of this event and that is where I discovered the problem

What is interesting is that Appendix A refers to scores not finishing places when 'scoring' a regatta

If my assessment of SW & RRS is correct, SW is technically wrong, but of course, it never shows up normally

Would be interested to hear what the rules experts say about this interpretation

Regards

Ralph

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe De Troy
Sent: 13 June 2008 11:04
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Ralph,

Unless there are ties in the races, there should be no differences.

With small fleets, committees are generally able to declare who is ahead, who is astern...

On handicap, there uses to be ties in races even, when PY is over 1000, identical boats with a difference of 1 second may be calculated as ties.

Then indeed, two boats ranked 3 receive 3.5 and is series ties breaking there is a difference..    . unless you change also this Racing Rule.

Should be sorted out by Colin.

In the EditScoreSystem window, in the tab SeriesRanking, give more options (under [ ] Include discards ..., give an option [ ] break ties on scores (non standard)

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 10:21 AM

Subject: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

  I use a high points scoring system where 1st place scores 10 points down to 10th place which scores 1 point.

  All other boats in the race score zero points (similar to F1 motor racing scoring system)

  If there is a tie break, it is broken based upon Appendix A8 but using points scored instead of places

  Because of this this tie breaking system, I cannot use Sailwave, which breaks ties on places.

  At the moment I use a spreadsheet for scoring but would really like to use SW

  Does anyone have any thoughts on how I might solve the problem??  A      part from changing my tie breaking system!!

Regards

  Ralph

Philippe_DE_TROY · 13 June 2008 11:40

Here the file…

Phil

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 1:29 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Phil

" I made a simulation on these data, and just changed the result of race 3 (boat B 6 and boat A 5), and the final result is unaffected."

Not sure what test you carried out

Could you give more detail as I am not sure if you are saying that SW works with my scoring system …???

Regards

Ralph

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe De Troy
Sent: 13 June 2008 12:13
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Ralph,

ISAF AppA.8.1 states that “* If there is a series score tie between two or more boats, each boats race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour of the boat(s) with the best score(s) . No excluded scores shall be used.*”

It’s clear, if Sailwave breaks ties on ranks, it’s wrong. But…

In you example, AppA.8.1 cannot break the tie, both scores listed in order are 3, 2, 0.

Then AppA.8.2 applies and the tie is not broken on race 3 (both 0), but well on race 2 and boat B wins.

I made a simulation on these data, and just changed the result of race 3 (boat B 6 and boat A 5), and the final result is unaffected.

However, it would be nice to have the opportunity to change from points/score to ranks in SW…

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 12:30 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Hi Phil

I don't think you understand the scoring system I am using - I have changed RRS Appendix A

In an example of 6 boats racing, points scoring would be as follows

3 points for 1st

2 points for 2nd

1 point for 3rd

0 points for 4th, 5th & 6th

In a 3 race series using my system, the following tie can occur - showing points (place)

Boat A   3 (1),   2 (2),   0 (6)

Boat B   2 (2),   3 (1),   0 (5)

Sailwave would break the tie in favour of Boat B because it beat Boat A in race 3

What I need to do is ignore race 3 because both boats had the same points score and award the tie break to Boat B because it scored more points in the race 2 than Boat A

IS THERE AN ERROR IN SAILWAVE?????

The issue (I think) is that Sailwave breaks ties on the scored RANK - not scored POINTS

This is normally one and the same thing but in my high points system (where all boats score zero points below a certain rank/finishing place), it causes a problem

I tested SW in the early days of this event and that is where I discovered the problem

What is interesting is that Appendix A refers to scores not finishing places when 'scoring' a regatta

If my assessment of SW & RRS is correct, SW is technically wrong, but of course, it never shows up normally

Would be interested to hear what the rules experts say about this interpretation

Regards

Ralph

From: sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe De Troy
Sent: 13 June 2008 11:04
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Ralph,

Unless there are ties in the races, there should be no differences.

With small fleets, committees are generally able to declare who is ahead, who is astern...

On handicap, there uses to be ties in races even, when PY is over 1000, identical boats with a difference of 1 second may be calculated as ties.

Then indeed, two boats ranked 3 receive 3.5 and is series ties breaking there is a difference..    . unless you change also this Racing Rule.

Should be sorted out by Colin.

In the EditScoreSystem window, in the tab SeriesRanking, give more options (under [ ] Include discards ..., give an option [ ] break ties on scores (non standard)

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 10:21 AM

Subject: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

  I use a high points scoring system where 1st place scores 10 points down to 10th place which scores 1 point.

  All other boats in the race score zero points (similar to F1 motor racing scoring system)

  If there is a tie break, it is broken based upon Appendix A8 but using points scored instead of places

  Because of this this tie breaking system, I cannot use Sailwave, which breaks ties on places.

  At the moment I use a spreadsheet for scoring but would really like to use SW

  Does anyone have any thoughts on how I might solve the problem??  A      part from changing my tie breaking system!!

Regards

  Ralph

RalphT · 13 June 2008 12:03

Thanks Phil

Hopefully, Colin will have a look & place the problem on the development plan

Just having another look & now not sure if tie break is on finishing place or scored rank but Colin will be able to resolve where the problem lies

Regards

Ralph

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe De Troy
Sent: 13 June 2008 12:40
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Here the file…

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 1:29 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Phil

" I made a simulation on these data, and just changed the result of race 3 (boat B 6 and boat A 5), and the final result is unaffected."

Not sure what test you carried out

Could you give more detail as I am not sure if you are saying that SW works with my scoring system …???

Regards

Ralph

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe De Troy
Sent: 13 June 2008 12:13
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Ralph,

ISAF AppA.8.1 states that “* If there is a series score tie between two or more boats, each boat’s race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour of the boat(s) with the best score(s) . No excluded scores shall be used.*”

It’s clear, if Sailwave breaks ties on ranks, it’s wrong. But…

In you example, AppA.8.1 cannot break the tie, both scores listed in order are 3, 2, 0.

Then AppA.8.2 applies and the tie is not broken on race 3 (both 0), but well on race 2 and boat B wins.

I made a simulation on these data, and just changed the result of race 3 (boat B 6 and boat A 5), and the final result is unaffected.

However, it would be nice to have the opportunity to change from points/score to ranks in SW…

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 12:30 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Hi Phil

I don't think you understand the scoring system I am using - I have changed RRS Appendix A

In an example of 6 boats racing, points scoring would be as follows

3 points for 1st

2 points for 2nd

1 point for 3rd

0 points for 4th, 5th & 6th

In a 3 race series using my system, the following tie can occur - showing points (place)

Boat A   3 (1),   2 (2),   0 (6)

Boat B   2 (2),   3 (1),   0 (5)

Sailwave would break the tie in favour of Boat B because it beat Boat A in race 3

What I need to do is ignore race 3 because both boats had the same points score and award the tie break to Boat B because it scored more points in the race 2 than Boat A

IS THERE AN ERROR IN SAILWAVE?????

The issue (I think) is that Sailwave breaks ties on the scored RANK - not scored POINTS

This is normally one and the same thing but in my high points system (where all boats score zero points below a certain rank/finishing place), it causes a problem

I tested SW in the early days of this event and that is where I discovered the problem

What is interesting is that Appendix A refers to scores not finishing places when 'scoring' a regatta

If my assessment of SW & RRS is correct, SW is technically wrong, but of course, it never shows up normally

Would be interested to hear what the rules experts say about this interpretation

Regards

Ralph

From: sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe De Troy
Sent: 13 June 2008 11:04
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Ralph,

Unless there are ties in the races, there should be no differences.

With small fleets, committees are generally able to declare who is ahead, who is astern...

On handicap, there uses to be ties in races even, when PY is over 1000, identical boats with a difference of 1 second may be calculated as ties.

Then indeed, two boats ranked 3 receive 3.5 and is series ties breaking there is a difference..    . unless you change also this Racing Rule.

Should be sorted out by Colin.

In the EditScoreSystem window, in the tab SeriesRanking, give more options (under [ ] Include discards ..., give an option [ ] break ties on scores (non standard)

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 10:21 AM

Subject: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

  I use a high points scoring system where 1st place scores 10 points down to 10th place which scores 1 point.

  All other boats in the race score zero points (similar to F1 motor racing scoring system)

  If there is a tie break, it is broken based upon Appendix A8 but using points scored instead of places

  Because of this this tie breaking system, I cannot use Sailwave, which breaks ties on places.

  At the moment I use a spreadsheet for scoring but would really like to use SW

  Does anyone have any thoughts on how I might solve the problem??  A      part from changing my tie breaking system!!

Regards

  Ralph

Philippe_DE_TROY · 13 June 2008 12:21

Ralph,

My simulations shows that ties are broken on points according to AppA.8

So SW works properly unless your local system states something else.

The main problem is that this this “something else” cannot be set up in SW, and that could be on the agenda.

Not so urgent, except for my World Championship, scheduled June 28-July 5…

Hope the Polish guys can handle our Class specifications with the software they are using.

Phil

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 2:03 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Thanks Phil

Hopefully, Colin will have a look & place the problem on the development plan

Just having another look & now not sure if tie break is on finishing place or scored rank but Colin will be able to resolve where the problem lies

Regards

Ralph

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe De Troy
Sent: 13 June 2008 12:40
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Here the file…

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 1:29 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Phil

" I made a simulation on these data, and just changed the result of race 3 (boat B 6 and boat A 5), and the final result is unaffected."

Not sure what test you carried out

Could you give more detail as I am not sure if you are saying that SW works with my scoring system ...???

Regards

Ralph

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe De Troy
Sent: 13 June 2008 12:13
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Ralph,

ISAF AppA.8.1 states that “* If there is a series score tie between two or more boats, each boats race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour of the boat(s) with the best score(s) . No excluded scores shall be used.*”

It's clear, if Sailwave breaks ties on **ranks**, it's wrong.  But...

In you example, AppA.8.1 cannot break the tie, both scores listed in order are 3, 2, 0.

Then AppA.8.2 applies and the tie is not broken on race 3 (both 0), but well on race 2 and boat B wins.

I made a simulation on these data, and just changed the result of race 3 (boat B 6 and boat A 5), and the final result is unaffected.

However, it would be nice to have the opportunity to change from points/score to ranks in SW...

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 12:30 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Hi Phil

  I don't think you understand the scoring system I am using - I have changed RRS Appendix A

  In an example of 6 boats racing, points scoring would be as follows

3 points for 1st

2 points for 2nd

1 point for 3rd

0 points for 4th, 5th & 6th

  In a 3 race series using my system, the following tie can occur - showing points (place)

  Boat A   3 (1),   2 (2),   0 (6)

  Boat B   2 (2),   3 (1),   0 (5)

  Sailwave would break the tie in favour of Boat B because it beat Boat A in race 3

  What I need to do is ignore race 3 because both boats had the same points score and award the tie break to Boat B because it scored more points in the race 2 than Boat A

IS THERE AN ERROR IN SAILWAVE???

  The issue (I think) is that Sailwave breaks ties on the scored RANK - not scored POINTS

  This is normally one and the same thing but in my high points system (where all boats score zero points below a certain rank/finishing place), it causes a problem

  I tested SW in the early days of this event and that is where I discovered the problem

  What is interesting is that Appendix A refers to scores not finishing places when 'scoring' a regatta

  If my assessment of SW & RRS is correct, SW is technically wrong, but of course, it never shows up normally

  Would be interested to hear what the rules experts say about this interpretation

Regards

Ralph

From: sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philippe De Troy
Sent: 13 June 2008 11:04
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

Ralph,

  Unless there are ties in the races, there should be no differences.

  With small fleets, committees are generally able to declare who is ahead, who is astern...

  On handicap, there uses to be ties in races even, when PY is over 1000, identical boats with a difference of 1 second may be calculated as ties.

  Then indeed, two boats ranked 3 receive 3.5 and is series ties breaking there is a difference..      . unless you change also this Racing Rule.

Should be sorted out by Colin.

  In the EditScoreSystem window, in the tab SeriesRanking, give more options (under [ ] Include discards ..., give an option [ ] break ties on scores (non standard)

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 10:21 AM

Subject: [sailwave] High Points Scoring - Tie Breaks

    I use a high points scoring system where 1st place scores 10 points down to 10th place which scores 1 point.

    All other boats in the race score zero points (similar to F1 motor racing scoring system)

    If there is a tie break, it is broken based upon Appendix A8 but using points scored instead of places

    Because of this this tie breaking system, I cannot use Sailwave, which breaks ties on places.

    At the moment I use a spreadsheet for scoring but would really like to use SW

    Does anyone have any thoughts on how I might solve the problem??  A        part from changing my tie breaking system!!

Regards

    Ralph