Hi everyone,
Following my last post I have managed to make sailwave rescore a typical series from our club using the CHIPS method of scoring. It all works well and once I figured out what I was doing it was an easy change. I am looking in to the high scoring series system at the moment, as I said before, mainly for myself. However, I have started a post on our club forum to try to gauge opinion on whether people think it is a good system, whether its fairer than low scoring over a long series where the number of boats in each race can fluctuate wildly.
What I am after really is for some help clearing up how the discards should be applied to a high scoring system. Do any clubs that use CHIPS post on here, and if you are reading this please can you let me know what discards you allow over similar length series. We typically have series lasting over 14 weekends on average with 1 race per day. My understanding is that with high scoring you dont necessarily need to have any discards. How does it work, I'm a little confused.
Thanks in advance,
Chris Gandy
Draycote
Hi Chris
First, I don’t know if you have looked in the SUG Files area where the comprehensive paper “All about CHIPS” at this addres may be useful…
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4PzmSkcotZNWcsEgGy2fYXxK5mhyLeKSQBYOBgxDlVT29TETTSgMdO_4lgCf5l4JjxB5Ilq7Jfk-tsMtv8lq9wuaAcTn7ytu0xQ0MDMc9P_1r2y1rpwZ387a/%20All%20about%20CHIPS.pdf
CHIPS is used by Chipstead SC for a number of the club’s race series for which the following example of real current results may be of interest.
http://www.chipsteadsc.org.uk/results09/Laser%20&%20Radial%20Points%20(CHIPS).htm
This covers a long series of 26 races for 47 Lasers run over the 2009 season.
The Chpstead website also shows comparisons of the results for CHIPS versus LPS for all their current race series (other class and handicap races).
The way discards are handled is that one decides on how many races one wishes to count in the series, i.e. the maximum number of races for which the highest scores can be counted. The races that are not counted are of course the discards and all unsailed races are scored zero. This also means that one starts clocking up point scores from the first race that is sailed. In the case of the Chipstead Laser series a maximum of 9 of the 26 races are counted towards the total.
Hope this helps
Geoff
···
-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of chris
Sent: 27 October 2009 11:15
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] High Scoring using CHIPS and discards
Hi everyone,
Following my last post I have managed to make sailwave rescore a typical series from our club using the CHIPS method of scoring. It all works well and once I figured out what I was doing it was an easy change. I am looking in to the high scoring series system at the moment, as I said before, mainly for myself. However, I have started a post on our club forum to try to gauge opinion on whether people think it is a good system, whether its fairer than low scoring over a long series where the number of boats in each race can fluctuate wildly.
What I am after really is for some help clearing up how the discards should be applied to a high scoring system. Do any clubs that use CHIPS post on here, and if you are reading this please can you let me know what discards you allow over similar length series. We typically have series lasting over 14 weekends on average with 1 race per day. My understanding is that with high scoring you dont necessarily need to have any discards. How does it work, I’m a little confused.
Thanks in advance,
Chris Gandy
Draycote
Hi Geoff. Many thanks for the very quick reply. I have to be honest I hadnt looked in the SUG file area as I didnt know it existed. I have just had alook and many fo the files arent accessible. Not sure if you need certain rights or anything but I dont seem to be able to open them. However I found the All about CHIPS file on the internet when I was searching round for high score system information. It is a very useful document. Thank you.
I have run a comparison of one of our series using a low score system against the CHIPS and it has made a difference to a few positions, but the winner still won.
The one area I wasnt sure of is that of number of discards. Is that still purely down to the club to set? Is there a recommended percentage of races in a series to count that works best? I was under the impression that it would be fairest to have no discards in a long series but Im really not sure where that came from. Is that wrong? I'll have a look at the links you sent now.
Thanks again.
Chris
···
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Burrell" <geoff.burrell@...> wrote:
Hi Chris
First, I don't know if you have looked in the SUG Files area where the
comprehensive paper "All about CHIPS" at this addres may be useful..
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4PzmSkcotZNWcsEgGy2fYXxK5mhyLeKSQBYOBgxDlVT29TE
TTSgMdO_4lgCf5l4JjxB5Ilq7Jfk-tsMtv8lq9wuaAcTn7ytu0xQ0MDMc9P_1r2y1rpwZ387a/%2
0All%20about%20CHIPS.pdf
CHIPS is used by Chipstead SC for a number of the club's race series for
which the following example of real current results may be of interest.
http://www.chipsteadsc.org.uk/results09/Laser%20&%20Radial%20Points%20(CHIPS
).htm
This covers a long series of 26 races for 47 Lasers run over the 2009
season.
The Chpstead website also shows comparisons of the results for CHIPS versus
LPS for all their current race series (other class and handicap races).
The way discards are handled is that one decides on how many races one
wishes to count in the series, i.e. the maximum number of races for which
the highest scores can be counted. The races that are not counted are of
course the discards and all unsailed races are scored zero. This also means
that one starts clocking up point scores from the first race that is sailed.
In the case of the Chipstead Laser series a maximum of 9 of the 26 races are
counted towards the total.
Hope this helps
Geoff
-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of chris
Sent: 27 October 2009 11:15
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] High Scoring using CHIPS and discards
Hi everyone,
Following my last post I have managed to make sailwave rescore a typical
series from our club using the CHIPS method of scoring. It all works well
and once I figured out what I was doing it was an easy change. I am looking
in to the high scoring series system at the moment, as I said before, mainly
for myself. However, I have started a post on our club forum to try to gauge
opinion on whether people think it is a good system, whether its fairer than
low scoring over a long series where the number of boats in each race can
fluctuate wildly.
What I am after really is for some help clearing up how the discards
should be applied to a high scoring system. Do any clubs that use CHIPS post
on here, and if you are reading this please can you let me know what
discards you allow over similar length series. We typically have series
lasting over 14 weekends on average with 1 race per day. My understanding is
that with high scoring you dont necessarily need to have any discards. How
does it work, I'm a little confused.
Thanks in advance,
Chris Gandy
Draycote
Hi Chris, provided you have a Yahoo ID you should have no problem accessing the files at…
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/files/
If you still have probs let me know, in the meantime a lot of Geoff’s stuff on CHIPS can be viewed at…
http://www.chipsteadsc.org.uk/chips/chips.htm
Simon
SUGmeister
···
2009/10/27 chris cgandy@tiscali.co.uk
Hi Geoff. Many thanks for the very quick reply. I have to be honest I hadnt looked in the SUG file area as I didnt know it existed. I have just had alook and many fo the files arent accessible. Not sure if you need certain rights or anything but I dont seem to be able to open them. However I found the All about CHIPS file on the internet when I was searching round for high score system information. It is a very useful document. Thank you.
I have run a comparison of one of our series using a low score system against the CHIPS and it has made a difference to a few positions, but the winner still won.
The one area I wasnt sure of is that of number of discards. Is that still purely down to the club to set? Is there a recommended percentage of races in a series to count that works best? I was under the impression that it would be fairest to have no discards in a long series but Im really not sure where that came from. Is that wrong? I’ll have a look at the links you sent now.
Thanks again.
Chris
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, “Geoff Burrell” <geoff.burrell@…> wrote:
Hi Chris
First, I don’t know if you have looked in the SUG Files area where the
comprehensive paper “All about CHIPS” at this addres may be useful…
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4PzmSkcotZNWcsEgGy2fYXxK5mhyLeKSQBYOBgxDlVT29TE
TTSgMdO_4lgCf5l4JjxB5Ilq7Jfk-tsMtv8lq9wuaAcTn7ytu0xQ0MDMc9P_1r2y1rpwZ387a/%2
0All%20about%20CHIPS.pdf
CHIPS is used by Chipstead SC for a number of the club’s race series for
which the following example of real current results may be of interest.
http://www.chipsteadsc.org.uk/results09/Laser%20&%20Radial%20Points%20(CHIPS
).htm
This covers a long series of 26 races for 47 Lasers run over the 2009
season.
The Chpstead website also shows comparisons of the results for CHIPS versus
LPS for all their current race series (other class and handicap races).
The way discards are handled is that one decides on how many races one
wishes to count in the series, i.e. the maximum number of races for which
the highest scores can be counted. The races that are not counted are of
course the discards and all unsailed races are scored zero. This also means
that one starts clocking up point scores from the first race that is sailed.
In the case of the Chipstead Laser series a maximum of 9 of the 26 races are
counted towards the total.
Hope this helps
Geoff
-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of chris
Sent: 27 October 2009 11:15
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] High Scoring using CHIPS and discards
Hi everyone,
Following my last post I have managed to make sailwave rescore a typical
series from our club using the CHIPS method of scoring. It all works well
and once I figured out what I was doing it was an easy change. I am looking
in to the high scoring series system at the moment, as I said before, mainly
for myself. However, I have started a post on our club forum to try to gauge
opinion on whether people think it is a good system, whether its fairer than
low scoring over a long series where the number of boats in each race can
fluctuate wildly.
What I am after really is for some help clearing up how the discards
should be applied to a high scoring system. Do any clubs that use CHIPS post
on here, and if you are reading this please can you let me know what
discards you allow over similar length series. We typically have series
lasting over 14 weekends on average with 1 race per day. My understanding is
that with high scoring you dont necessarily need to have any discards. How
does it work, I’m a little confused.
Thanks in advance,
Chris Gandy
Draycote
Hi Chris
There is no “recommended” number of discards. It all comes down to how many of the available races can one expect most people to sail. In a long series running over many weeks it is unrealistic to expect people to sail more than about half or at best two-thirds due to family commitments, holidays, etc. And one wants to ensure a good proportion of ones club members are able to turn out and complete the ideal number of races - which is the maximum number that one is allowed to count. If for example 9 can be counted then the theoretical maximum score is 900, whereas those who sail only 8 races cannot attain more than 800. If one places no limit on the number of races that can count, saying that all races can be included in the total score, then that becomes unfair on those who cannot sail all (or nearly all) of the races. These are exactly the same considerations that apply to Low Point scoring but for which DNC scores have to be applied, which itself raises the problem of knowing what DNC score one should allocate when one rarely knows how many competitors will take place in a long series until the last race. (For LPS DNC scores only work sensibly for short series, whereas in HPS that problem conveniently goes away as well as the all to common tie resolution problem.) Also for short series it can be expected that most people will sail all or nearly all the races - since they have turned up at the regatta specifically to sail. In such cases then HP systems such as CHIPS offer less benefit since there tends to be less variability in the number of boats competing in each race - although even then one tends to find that tie resolution is a bit fairer using CHIPS.
For the above reason at Chipstead only about 35% of the races are counted in their long series - but it is all a matter of judgement.
Just for your interest, at Chipstead they also have the concept of “qualifying” in ones class series, which means that in order to compete in the “Top Dog” final race (and become Club Champion) one has to complete at least 9 races and finish in the top 4 in ones class races. Just like the “best in show” for dogs!
It is worth looking at the Chipstead SC results to see how the “discards” work out in practice, so (since you are having difficulty accessing the links) maybe you will have better luck via the club website - www.chipsteadsc.org.uk .
Cheers
Geoff
···
-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of chris
Sent: 27 October 2009 15:52
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] Re: High Scoring using CHIPS and discards
Hi Geoff. Many thanks for the very quick reply. I have to be honest I hadnt looked in the SUG file area as I didnt know it existed. I have just had alook and many fo the files arent accessible. Not sure if you need certain rights or anything but I dont seem to be able to open them. However I found the All about CHIPS file on the internet when I was searching round for high score system information. It is a very useful document. Thank you.
I have run a comparison of one of our series using a low score system against the CHIPS and it has made a difference to a few positions, but the winner still won.
The one area I wasnt sure of is that of number of discards. Is that still purely down to the club to set? Is there a recommended percentage of races in a series to count that works best? I was under the impression that it would be fairest to have no discards in a long series but Im really not sure where that came from. Is that wrong? I’ll have a look at the links you sent now.
Thanks again.
Chris
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com , “Geoff Burrell” <geoff.burrell@…> wrote:
Hi Chris
First, I don’t know if you have looked in the SUG Files area where the
comprehensive paper “All about CHIPS” at this addres may be useful…
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4PzmSkcotZNWcsEgGy2fYXxK5mhyLeKSQBYOBgxDlVT29TE
TTSgMdO_4lgCf5l4JjxB5Ilq7Jfk-tsMtv8lq9wuaAcTn7ytu0xQ0MDMc9P_1r2y1rpwZ387a/%2
0All%20about%20CHIPS.pdf
CHIPS is used by Chipstead SC for a number of the club’s race series for
which the following example of real current results may be of interest.
http://www.chipsteadsc.org.uk/results09/Laser%20&%20Radial%20Points%20(CHIPS
).htm
This covers a long series of 26 races for 47 Lasers run over the 2009
season.
The Chpstead website also shows comparisons of the results for CHIPS versus
LPS for all their current race series (other class and handicap races).
The way discards are handled is that one decides on how many races one
wishes to count in the series, i.e. the maximum number of races for which
the highest scores can be counted. The races that are not counted are of
course the discards and all unsailed races are scored zero. This also means
that one starts clocking up point scores from the first race that is sailed.
In the case of the Chipstead Laser series a maximum of 9 of the 26 races are
counted towards the total.
Hope this helps
Geoff
-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf
Of chris
Sent: 27 October 2009 11:15
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] High Scoring using CHIPS and discards
Hi everyone,
Following my last post I have managed to make sailwave rescore a typical
series from our club using the CHIPS method of scoring. It all works well
and once I figured out what I was doing it was an easy change. I am looking
in to the high scoring series system at the moment, as I said before, mainly
for myself. However, I have started a post on our club forum to try to gauge
opinion on whether people think it is a good system, whether its fairer than
low scoring over a long series where the number of boats in each race can
fluctuate wildly.
What I am after really is for some help clearing up how the discards
should be applied to a high scoring system. Do any clubs that use CHIPS post
on here, and if you are reading this please can you let me know what
discards you allow over similar length series. We typically have series
lasting over 14 weekends on average with 1 race per day. My understanding is
that with high scoring you dont necessarily need to have any discards. How
does it work, I’m a little confused.
Thanks in advance,
Chris Gandy
Draycote
Geoff,
Thank you for taking the time to reply to my posts. You have helped me understand the CHIPS system a lot better, certainly with regard to the discard situation anyway.
We have a discussion going on on our club website. Feel free to register with the forum and join in. It can be found here:
[url]http://www.dwsc.commrich.co.uk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2817[/url]
There are a few comments that say it doesnt reward winning enough and a couple of comments about retiring. It would be interesting to hear your points of view on these.
Once again, many thanks.
Chris Gandy
Draycote
···
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Burrell" <geoff.burrell@...> wrote:
Hi Chris
There is no "recommended" number of discards. It all comes down to how many
of the available races can one expect most people to sail. In a long series
running over many weeks it is unrealistic to expect people to sail more than
about half or at best two-thirds due to family commitments, holidays, etc.
And one wants to ensure a good proportion of ones club members are able to
turn out and complete the ideal number of races - which is the maximum
number that one is allowed to count. If for example 9 can be counted then
the theoretical maximum score is 900, whereas those who sail only 8 races
cannot attain more than 800. If one places no limit on the number of races
that can count, saying that all races can be included in the total score,
then that becomes unfair on those who cannot sail all (or nearly all) of the
races. These are exactly the same considerations that apply to Low Point
scoring but for which DNC scores have to be applied, which itself raises the
problem of knowing what DNC score one should allocate when one rarely knows
how many competitors will take place in a long series until the last race.
(For LPS DNC scores only work sensibly for short series, whereas in HPS that
problem conveniently goes away as well as the all to common tie resolution
problem.) Also for short series it can be expected that most people will
sail all or nearly all the races - since they have turned up at the regatta
specifically to sail. In such cases then HP systems such as CHIPS offer less
benefit since there tends to be less variability in the number of boats
competing in each race - although even then one tends to find that tie
resolution is a bit fairer using CHIPS.
For the above reason at Chipstead only about 35% of the races are counted in
their long series - but it is all a matter of judgement.
Just for your interest, at Chipstead they also have the concept of
"qualifying" in ones class series, which means that in order to compete in
the "Top Dog" final race (and become Club Champion) one has to complete at
least 9 races and finish in the top 4 in ones class races. Just like the
"best in show" for dogs!
It is worth looking at the Chipstead SC results to see how the "discards"
work out in practice, so (since you are having difficulty accessing the
links) maybe you will have better luck via the club website -
www.chipsteadsc.org.uk .
Cheers
Geoff
-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of chris
Sent: 27 October 2009 15:52
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: High Scoring using CHIPS and discards
Hi Geoff. Many thanks for the very quick reply. I have to be honest I
hadnt looked in the SUG file area as I didnt know it existed. I have just
had alook and many fo the files arent accessible. Not sure if you need
certain rights or anything but I dont seem to be able to open them. However
I found the All about CHIPS file on the internet when I was searching round
for high score system information. It is a very useful document. Thank you.
I have run a comparison of one of our series using a low score system
against the CHIPS and it has made a difference to a few positions, but the
winner still won.
The one area I wasnt sure of is that of number of discards. Is that still
purely down to the club to set? Is there a recommended percentage of races
in a series to count that works best? I was under the impression that it
would be fairest to have no discards in a long series but Im really not sure
where that came from. Is that wrong? I'll have a look at the links you sent
now.
Thanks again.
Chris
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Burrell" <geoff.burrell@>
wrote:
>
> Hi Chris
> First, I don't know if you have looked in the SUG Files area where the
> comprehensive paper "All about CHIPS" at this addres may be useful..
>
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4PzmSkcotZNWcsEgGy2fYXxK5mhyLeKSQBYOBgxDlVT29TE
>
TTSgMdO_4lgCf5l4JjxB5Ilq7Jfk-tsMtv8lq9wuaAcTn7ytu0xQ0MDMc9P_1r2y1rpwZ387a/%2
> 0All%20about%20CHIPS.pdf
> CHIPS is used by Chipstead SC for a number of the club's race series for
> which the following example of real current results may be of interest.
>
http://www.chipsteadsc.org.uk/results09/Laser%20&%20Radial%20Points%20(CHIPS
> ).htm
> This covers a long series of 26 races for 47 Lasers run over the 2009
> season.
> The Chpstead website also shows comparisons of the results for CHIPS
versus
> LPS for all their current race series (other class and handicap races).
> The way discards are handled is that one decides on how many races one
> wishes to count in the series, i.e. the maximum number of races for
which
> the highest scores can be counted. The races that are not counted are of
> course the discards and all unsailed races are scored zero. This also
means
> that one starts clocking up point scores from the first race that is
sailed.
> In the case of the Chipstead Laser series a maximum of 9 of the 26 races
are
> counted towards the total.
> Hope this helps
> Geoff
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf
> Of chris
> Sent: 27 October 2009 11:15
> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [sailwave] High Scoring using CHIPS and discards
>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Following my last post I have managed to make sailwave rescore a typical
> series from our club using the CHIPS method of scoring. It all works
well
> and once I figured out what I was doing it was an easy change. I am
looking
> in to the high scoring series system at the moment, as I said before,
mainly
> for myself. However, I have started a post on our club forum to try to
gauge
> opinion on whether people think it is a good system, whether its fairer
than
> low scoring over a long series where the number of boats in each race
can
> fluctuate wildly.
>
> What I am after really is for some help clearing up how the discards
> should be applied to a high scoring system. Do any clubs that use CHIPS
post
> on here, and if you are reading this please can you let me know what
> discards you allow over similar length series. We typically have series
> lasting over 14 weekends on average with 1 race per day. My
understanding is
> that with high scoring you dont necessarily need to have any discards.
How
> does it work, I'm a little confused.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Chris Gandy
> Draycote
>