I have a question that I can’t seem to find an answer for in the group. Sailwave is counting DNCs and discarding actual finishes, and I can’t make it stop.
We have a series with a large number of races and equally large number of throw outs. To qualify, a sailor must sail in at least 50% of the races, and there are 50% throw-outs for qualifying sailors. basically this means that the sailor’s top 50% scores are counted. So in a 50 race series, a skipper must sail in at least 25 races, and their top 25 races (even if they sailed all 50) are scored. Theoretically, if a sailor qualifies, all of his DNCs are then thrown out.
When set up the series, I used a discard formula s/2 and a qualification formula of s/2. A DNC is scored as the number of boats that showed up to the starting line +1. My problem now is that a sailor who qualified, but had a number of bad scored in several races with bigger fleets is now having bad results thrown out and some DNCs for a day with a small fleet counted instead. So there are a number of DNC/3 being scored, while some actual 5th place finishes are being thrown out.
How do I force Sailwave to throw out the DNCs and count the actual finishes?
1 Like
Assuming you are using low point scoring, Sailwave will aways discard the highest points first. You can make races non-discardable or discard me first., you can also specify which codes are discardable.
If I understand your question correctly you are saying you want to include higher points in which a sailor competed. This doesn’t seem correct as you are then penalising the sailor for taking part in a race. If he hadn’t taken part you suggest it would be fine to use lower points from another race. It seems to me that what Sailwave is doing is correct. Possibly DNC should be No of Competitors in Series + 1 and then you won’t have this problem. As they have a 50% discard and need to have entered 50% they will never have a DNC included in their total.
Jon
···
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”
On 6 October 2014 00:54, mycsunfish@gmail.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
I have a question that I can’t seem to find an answer for in the group. Sailwave is counting DNCs and discarding actual finishes, and I can’t make it stop.
We have a series with a large number of races and equally large number of throw outs. To qualify, a sailor must sail in at least 50% of the races, and there are 50% throw-outs for qualifying sailors. basically this means that the sailor’s top 50% scores are counted. So in a 50 race series, a skipper must sail in at least 25 races, and their top 25 races (even if they sailed all 50) are scored. Theoretically, if a sailor qualifies, all of his DNCs are then thrown out.
When set up the series, I used a discard formula s/2 and a qualification formula of s/2. A DNC is scored as the number of boats that showed up to the starting line +1. My problem now is that a sailor who qualified, but had a number of bad scored in several races with bigger fleets is now having bad results thrown out and some DNCs for a day with a small fleet counted instead. So there are a number of DNC/3 being scored, while some actual 5th place finishes are being thrown out.
How do I force Sailwave to throw out the DNCs and count the actual finishes?
Scoring in long series must be done following RRS A9 so RET,DNF,DSQ, DNS are scored as numbers of participants in the startingarea+1 for a given race, and DNC (competitors not showing up in the start area) is scored as number of competitors in the series +1.
···
Mvh. Karsten Svenningsen
2014-10-06 11:11 GMT+02:00 Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com:
Assuming you are using low point scoring, Sailwave will aways discard the highest points first. You can make races non-discardable or discard me first., you can also specify which codes are discardable.
If I understand your question correctly you are saying you want to include higher points in which a sailor competed. This doesn’t seem correct as you are then penalising the sailor for taking part in a race. If he hadn’t taken part you suggest it would be fine to use lower points from another race. It seems to me that what Sailwave is doing is correct. Possibly DNC should be No of Competitors in Series + 1 and then you won’t have this problem. As they have a 50% discard and need to have entered 50% they will never have a DNC included in their total.
Jon
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”
On 6 October 2014 00:54, mycsunfish@gmail.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
I have a question that I can’t seem to find an answer for in the group. Sailwave is counting DNCs and discarding actual finishes, and I can’t make it stop.
We have a series with a large number of races and equally large number of throw outs. To qualify, a sailor must sail in at least 50% of the races, and there are 50% throw-outs for qualifying sailors. basically this means that the sailor’s top 50% scores are counted. So in a 50 race series, a skipper must sail in at least 25 races, and their top 25 races (even if they sailed all 50) are scored. Theoretically, if a sailor qualifies, all of his DNCs are then thrown out.
When set up the series, I used a discard formula s/2 and a qualification formula of s/2. A DNC is scored as the number of boats that showed up to the starting line +1. My problem now is that a sailor who qualified, but had a number of bad scored in several races with bigger fleets is now having bad results thrown out and some DNCs for a day with a small fleet counted instead. So there are a number of DNC/3 being scored, while some actual 5th place finishes are being thrown out.
How do I force Sailwave to throw out the DNCs and count the actual finishes?
I agree it is common to score longer series according to A9 although it doesn’t have to be if the SI’s specify. In this particular case what is being requested is that they have a 50% qualification and a 50 % discard which means that no boats that qualify should have any DNC’s If the NoR/SI’s say that their score is the total of their best x races sailed where x = 50% of the races sailed, then this means they will not have any discards.
It all depends upon the wording does it say best x races or best x races sailed
If it says sailed then you will have to make DNC equal to Number is series + 1, Their net score will be correct because it won’t include any DNC’s but it will affect the discards
Jon
Are you really sure you want to score like that: Its highly
unconventional, because, as you rightly point out, DNC in a race with few
starters scores lower points than a placing in a race with many starters.
Remember the RRS includes this:-
"A9 RACE SCORES IN A SERIES LONGER THAN A REGATTA
For a series that is held over a period of time longer than a
regatta, a boat that came to the starting area but did not start, did not
finish, retired or was disqualified shall be scored points for the
finishing place one more than the number of boats that came to the
starting area. A boat that did not come to the starting area shall be
scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of boats
entered in the series."
While I wouldn’t recommend that a club changes their scoring system
to suit their software, here I think you should consider changing your scoring
because its just weird!
regards, Jim C
···
On 6 Oct 2014 at 9:02, sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
I have a question that I can’t seem to find an answer for in the
group. Sailwave is counting DNCs and discarding actual finishes,
You got a number of responses, none of which seemed to answer the
question you asked. I don't believe Sailwave can be set up to
automatically discard DNCs before race scores, regardless of the number
of points. Excel might be a good option.
The reason Sailwave would not be set up to do this is the concept of
"discard" as used in the rulebook and the sport. In sailing we discard a
boat's "worst" races, which in a low point system means the boat's
largest scores. However, the scoring system you are using awards more
points to a finish in a race then to a DNC when few boats turn out. That
is unusual. Per rule A9, the default scoring system in the rulebook
awards DNC boats "Number entered in series +1" for a series longer than
a regatta (for a regatta, all boats normally sail all races so the issue
doesn't arise). Rule A9 assures that DNC scores will always be larger
than race scores and will always be discarded first. Your system doesn't
do that (I am assuming that you have some unique system specified in
your NOR and SIs, otherwise you are just ignoring the rules and scoring
incorrectly).
I would humbly suggest that your scoring system doesn't make sense and
in addition highlights the problem with using either a straight
low-point or straight high-point system for a long series of races where
the number of boats that turn out can vary significantly from race to
race. There are a number of alternatives, some value results with more
boats more highly, some value results with fewer boats more highly and
some value the result equally regardless of the number of boats. A
straight low-point system favors boats that sail in smaller races; a
straight high-point system favors boats that sail in larger races. My
club uses one of the systems that doesn't have a significant bias based
on race size. If I were you I'd seriously consider that.
For now, I'd suggest sticking with your current method of scoring or, if
you are currently doing it by hand, consider a spreadsheet such as
Excel. Either way it will take a little bit of work.
Some who responded have suggested switching to using the default system
in the rulebook for a series longer than a regatta. I hesitate to
suggest that as the default system in the rulebook is generally
considered to be unfair and inappropriate where the number of competing
boats could vary significantly from race to race. There are options to
be suggested if you want to consider switching to another system.
Art
···
On 10/5/2014 4:54 PM, mycsunfish@gmail.com [sailwave] wrote:
I have a question that I can't seem to find an answer for in the
group. Sailwave is counting DNCs and discarding actual finishes, and
I can't make it stop.
We have a series with a large number of races and equally large
number of throw outs. To qualify, a sailor must sail in at least 50%
of the races, and there are 50% throw-outs for qualifying sailors.
basically this means that the sailor's top 50% scores are counted.
So in a 50 race series, a skipper must sail in at least 25 races, and
their top 25 races (even if they sailed all 50) are scored.
Theoretically, if a sailor qualifies, all of his DNCs are then thrown
out.
When set up the series, I used a discard formula s/2 and a
qualification formula of s/2. A DNC is scored as the number of boats
that showed up to the starting line +1. My problem now is that a
sailor who qualified, but had a number of bad scored in several races
with bigger fleets is now having bad results thrown out and some DNCs
for a day with a small fleet counted instead. So there are a number
of DNC/3 being scored, while some actual 5th place finishes are being
thrown out.
How do I force Sailwave to throw out the DNCs and count the actual
finishes?
I don’t think there is any need to resort to Excel - Just set the DNC to Number is Series + 1 then all their DNC’s will get discarded first
The fact that in this case the qualification profile and the discard profile are both 50% means that all their DNC’s will be discarded so the fact that the value of a discard is not what you would want to count in a score is immaterial.
Jon
···
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”
On 6 October 2014 22:05, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
You got a number of responses, none of which seemed to answer the
question you asked. I don’t believe Sailwave can be set up to
automatically discard DNCs before race scores, regardless of the number
of points. Excel might be a good option.
The reason Sailwave would not be set up to do this is the concept of
“discard” as used in the rulebook and the sport. In sailing we discard a
boat’s “worst” races, which in a low point system means the boat’s
largest scores. However, the scoring system you are using awards more
points to a finish in a race then to a DNC when few boats turn out. That
is unusual. Per rule A9, the default scoring system in the rulebook
awards DNC boats “Number entered in series +1” for a series longer than
a regatta (for a regatta, all boats normally sail all races so the issue
doesn’t arise). Rule A9 assures that DNC scores will always be larger
than race scores and will always be discarded first. Your system doesn’t
do that (I am assuming that you have some unique system specified in
your NOR and SIs, otherwise you are just ignoring the rules and scoring
incorrectly).
I would humbly suggest that your scoring system doesn’t make sense and
in addition highlights the problem with using either a straight
low-point or straight high-point system for a long series of races where
the number of boats that turn out can vary significantly from race to
race. There are a number of alternatives, some value results with more
boats more highly, some value results with fewer boats more highly and
some value the result equally regardless of the number of boats. A
straight low-point system favors boats that sail in smaller races; a
straight high-point system favors boats that sail in larger races. My
club uses one of the systems that doesn’t have a significant bias based
on race size. If I were you I’d seriously consider that.
For now, I’d suggest sticking with your current method of scoring or, if
you are currently doing it by hand, consider a spreadsheet such as
Excel. Either way it will take a little bit of work.
Some who responded have suggested switching to using the default system
in the rulebook for a series longer than a regatta. I hesitate to
suggest that as the default system in the rulebook is generally
considered to be unfair and inappropriate where the number of competing
boats could vary significantly from race to race. There are options to
be suggested if you want to consider switching to another system.
Art
On 10/5/2014 4:54 PM, mycsunfish@gmail.com [sailwave] wrote:
I have a question that I can’t seem to find an answer for in the
group. Sailwave is counting DNCs and discarding actual finishes, and
I can’t make it stop.
We have a series with a large number of races and equally large
number of throw outs. To qualify, a sailor must sail in at least 50%
of the races, and there are 50% throw-outs for qualifying sailors.
basically this means that the sailor’s top 50% scores are counted.
So in a 50 race series, a skipper must sail in at least 25 races, and
their top 25 races (even if they sailed all 50) are scored.
Theoretically, if a sailor qualifies, all of his DNCs are then thrown
out.
When set up the series, I used a discard formula s/2 and a
qualification formula of s/2. A DNC is scored as the number of boats
that showed up to the starting line +1. My problem now is that a
sailor who qualified, but had a number of bad scored in several races
with bigger fleets is now having bad results thrown out and some DNCs
for a day with a small fleet counted instead. So there are a number
of DNC/3 being scored, while some actual 5th place finishes are being
thrown out.
How do I force Sailwave to throw out the DNCs and count the actual
finishes?
Jon,
Surely, John wanted to discard the DNCs without having to change his
scoring system. I think I'm correct in saying Sailwave is not set up to
do that.
You make a good point that at the end of the series all of the DNCs are
going to be discarded anyway (half the races will be discarded and a
qualifying boat can have no more than half the races as DNCs so for any
boat that qualifies all of her DNCs will be discarded). At that stage,
it makes no difference what points are assigned to the discarded races.
However, interim published results would potentially be distorted.
If going your route I'd personally be inclined to use a random number
such as 99 so that it is clear that it is not in compliance with the
scoring system as defined but done for convenience.
We used to score our long series using a boat's best X races, under a
high point system. Under a high-point system DNCs get zero points so it
is relatively easy. We had discards kick in after X races. So, if X
races then no discards, if X+1 races then one discard, if X+2 then two
discards, etc. That has virtually the same result as the "discard half"
method at the end and Sailwave can actually do it.
However, if John has any thought of changing what his club is doing then
I would seriously look at one of the multiple of long-series scoring
systems that are fairer than a simple low-point system (all are some
version of a high-point type system although they differ in their
details and what they reward). Sailwave can score quite a few of them
(though not all) and you don't have to mess around with a minimum number
of races with many of those systems (I think that is true of all the
ones that Sailwave can score).
Art
···
On 10/6/2014 3:09 PM, Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com [sailwave] wrote:
I don't think there is any need to resort to Excel - Just set the DNC to
Number is Series + 1 then all their DNC's will get discarded first
The fact that in this case the qualification profile and the discard
profile are both 50% means that all their DNC's will be discarded so the
fact that the value of a discard is not what you would want to count in a
score is immaterial.
Jon
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype "eskdale"
On 6 October 2014 22:05, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] < > sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
You got a number of responses, none of which seemed to answer the
question you asked. I don't believe Sailwave can be set up to
automatically discard DNCs before race scores, regardless of the number
of points. Excel might be a good option.
The reason Sailwave would not be set up to do this is the concept of
"discard" as used in the rulebook and the sport. In sailing we discard a
boat's "worst" races, which in a low point system means the boat's
largest scores. However, the scoring system you are using awards more
points to a finish in a race then to a DNC when few boats turn out. That
is unusual. Per rule A9, the default scoring system in the rulebook
awards DNC boats "Number entered in series +1" for a series longer than
a regatta (for a regatta, all boats normally sail all races so the issue
doesn't arise). Rule A9 assures that DNC scores will always be larger
than race scores and will always be discarded first. Your system doesn't
do that (I am assuming that you have some unique system specified in
your NOR and SIs, otherwise you are just ignoring the rules and scoring
incorrectly).
I would humbly suggest that your scoring system doesn't make sense and
in addition highlights the problem with using either a straight
low-point or straight high-point system for a long series of races where
the number of boats that turn out can vary significantly from race to
race. There are a number of alternatives, some value results with more
boats more highly, some value results with fewer boats more highly and
some value the result equally regardless of the number of boats. A
straight low-point system favors boats that sail in smaller races; a
straight high-point system favors boats that sail in larger races. My
club uses one of the systems that doesn't have a significant bias based
on race size. If I were you I'd seriously consider that.
For now, I'd suggest sticking with your current method of scoring or, if
you are currently doing it by hand, consider a spreadsheet such as
Excel. Either way it will take a little bit of work.
Some who responded have suggested switching to using the default system
in the rulebook for a series longer than a regatta. I hesitate to
suggest that as the default system in the rulebook is generally
considered to be unfair and inappropriate where the number of competing
boats could vary significantly from race to race. There are options to
be suggested if you want to consider switching to another system.
Art
On 10/5/2014 4:54 PM, mycsunfish@gmail.com [sailwave] wrote:
I have a question that I can't seem to find an answer for in the
group. Sailwave is counting DNCs and discarding actual finishes, and
I can't make it stop.
We have a series with a large number of races and equally large
number of throw outs. To qualify, a sailor must sail in at least 50%
of the races, and there are 50% throw-outs for qualifying sailors.
basically this means that the sailor's top 50% scores are counted.
So in a 50 race series, a skipper must sail in at least 25 races, and
their top 25 races (even if they sailed all 50) are scored.
Theoretically, if a sailor qualifies, all of his DNCs are then thrown
out.
When set up the series, I used a discard formula s/2 and a
qualification formula of s/2. A DNC is scored as the number of boats
that showed up to the starting line +1. My problem now is that a
sailor who qualified, but had a number of bad scored in several races
with bigger fleets is now having bad results thrown out and some DNCs
for a day with a small fleet counted instead. So there are a number
of DNC/3 being scored, while some actual 5th place finishes are being
thrown out.
How do I force Sailwave to throw out the DNCs and count the actual
finishes?
1 Like
Mark,
Can you send a copy of your NOR and SI’s so we can determine how DNC’s should be scored.
Unless you have made some special provision within the NOR then rule A9 applies.
···
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 16:54:03 -0700
Subject: [sailwave] How to Force Sailwave to discard DNCs first
I have a question that I can’t seem to find an answer for in the group. Sailwave is counting DNCs and discarding actual finishes, and I can’t make it stop.
We have a series with a large number of races and equally large number of throw outs. To qualify, a sailor must sail in at least 50% of the races, and there are 50% throw-outs for qualifying sailors. basically this means that the sailor’s top 50% scores are counted. So in a 50 race series, a skipper must sail in at least 25 races, and their top 25 races (even if they sailed all 50) are scored. Theoretically, if a sailor qualifies, all of his DNCs are then thrown out.
When set up the series, I used a discard formula s/2 and a qualification formula of s/2. A DNC is scored as the number of boats that showed up to the starting line +1. My problem now is that a sailor who qualified, but had a number of bad scored in several races with bigger fleets is now having bad results thrown out and some DNCs for a day with a small fleet counted instead. So there are a number of DNC/3 being scored, while some actual 5th place finishes are being thrown out.
How do I force Sailwave to throw out the DNCs and count the actual finishes?
Hi Art,
“However, interim published results would potentially be distorted.”
I don’t think that would happen as the qualifying and discard profile are both 50%
As long as they have qualified all should be fine.
Jon
···
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”
On 7 October 2014 02:28, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Jon,
Surely, John wanted to discard the DNCs without having to change his
scoring system. I think I’m correct in saying Sailwave is not set up to
do that.
You make a good point that at the end of the series all of the DNCs are
going to be discarded anyway (half the races will be discarded and a
qualifying boat can have no more than half the races as DNCs so for any
boat that qualifies all of her DNCs will be discarded). At that stage,
it makes no difference what points are assigned to the discarded races.
However, interim published results would potentially be distorted.
If going your route I’d personally be inclined to use a random number
such as 99 so that it is clear that it is not in compliance with the
scoring system as defined but done for convenience.
We used to score our long series using a boat’s best X races, under a
high point system. Under a high-point system DNCs get zero points so it
is relatively easy. We had discards kick in after X races. So, if X
races then no discards, if X+1 races then one discard, if X+2 then two
discards, etc. That has virtually the same result as the “discard half”
method at the end and Sailwave can actually do it.
However, if John has any thought of changing what his club is doing then
I would seriously look at one of the multiple of long-series scoring
systems that are fairer than a simple low-point system (all are some
version of a high-point type system although they differ in their
details and what they reward). Sailwave can score quite a few of them
(though not all) and you don’t have to mess around with a minimum number
of races with many of those systems (I think that is true of all the
ones that Sailwave can score).
Art
On 10/6/2014 3:09 PM, Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com [sailwave] wrote:
I don’t think there is any need to resort to Excel - Just set the DNC to
Number is Series + 1 then all their DNC’s will get discarded first
The fact that in this case the qualification profile and the discard
profile are both 50% means that all their DNC’s will be discarded so the
fact that the value of a discard is not what you would want to count in a
score is immaterial.
Jon
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”
On 6 October 2014 22:05, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] <
sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
You got a number of responses, none of which seemed to answer the
question you asked. I don’t believe Sailwave can be set up to
automatically discard DNCs before race scores, regardless of the number
of points. Excel might be a good option.
The reason Sailwave would not be set up to do this is the concept of
“discard” as used in the rulebook and the sport. In sailing we discard a
boat’s “worst” races, which in a low point system means the boat’s
largest scores. However, the scoring system you are using awards more
points to a finish in a race then to a DNC when few boats turn out. That
is unusual. Per rule A9, the default scoring system in the rulebook
awards DNC boats “Number entered in series +1” for a series longer than
a regatta (for a regatta, all boats normally sail all races so the issue
doesn’t arise). Rule A9 assures that DNC scores will always be larger
than race scores and will always be discarded first. Your system doesn’t
do that (I am assuming that you have some unique system specified in
your NOR and SIs, otherwise you are just ignoring the rules and scoring
incorrectly).
I would humbly suggest that your scoring system doesn’t make sense and
in addition highlights the problem with using either a straight
low-point or straight high-point system for a long series of races where
the number of boats that turn out can vary significantly from race to
race. There are a number of alternatives, some value results with more
boats more highly, some value results with fewer boats more highly and
some value the result equally regardless of the number of boats. A
straight low-point system favors boats that sail in smaller races; a
straight high-point system favors boats that sail in larger races. My
club uses one of the systems that doesn’t have a significant bias based
on race size. If I were you I’d seriously consider that.
For now, I’d suggest sticking with your current method of scoring or, if
you are currently doing it by hand, consider a spreadsheet such as
Excel. Either way it will take a little bit of work.
Some who responded have suggested switching to using the default system
in the rulebook for a series longer than a regatta. I hesitate to
suggest that as the default system in the rulebook is generally
considered to be unfair and inappropriate where the number of competing
boats could vary significantly from race to race. There are options to
be suggested if you want to consider switching to another system.
Art
On 10/5/2014 4:54 PM, mycsunfish@gmail.com [sailwave] wrote:
I have a question that I can’t seem to find an answer for in the
group. Sailwave is counting DNCs and discarding actual finishes, and
I can’t make it stop.
We have a series with a large number of races and equally large
number of throw outs. To qualify, a sailor must sail in at least 50%
of the races, and there are 50% throw-outs for qualifying sailors.
basically this means that the sailor’s top 50% scores are counted.
So in a 50 race series, a skipper must sail in at least 25 races, and
their top 25 races (even if they sailed all 50) are scored.
Theoretically, if a sailor qualifies, all of his DNCs are then thrown
out.
When set up the series, I used a discard formula s/2 and a
qualification formula of s/2. A DNC is scored as the number of boats
that showed up to the starting line +1. My problem now is that a
sailor who qualified, but had a number of bad scored in several races
with bigger fleets is now having bad results thrown out and some DNCs
for a day with a small fleet counted instead. So there are a number
of DNC/3 being scored, while some actual 5th place finishes are being
thrown out.
How do I force Sailwave to throw out the DNCs and count the actual
finishes?