You raise the introduction to Part 2. Yes, that is very relevant. As I
read it, if you were to organise a regatta under ISAF RRS and I were to
organise a regatta under RPCS on the same waters, whenever a boat from
your fleet met a boat from my fleet then MY rules would take precedence
over YOUR rules. Interesting ? And that is YOUR rules that say so.
Mike (Beggs).
You have lost the plot!!
ISAF I believe has nothing to do with National Championships and so
should not be blamed here.
The collision regs only apply in racing if the sailing instructions
say so not as you suggest. See the introduction to part 2.
What of mark rounding and luffing, you tell me what use the collision
regs are.
Some events pay to use the rules, (Americas Cup) and they are copyright.
There is a submission to ISAF than only ISAF appointed race officials
can use the rules to stop breakaway groups. If you race in one of
these type of races you will never be able to sail in an ISAF race
again. It will not go through.
There has to be control of events and ISAF does this, it is democratic
and you can have your own submissions put to them and they have to
respond at the November Meeting each year.
We as sailors have the power to do this.
Do not complain, get onboard and make ISAF work.
Mike Butterfield IRO
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Mike Beggs <mailto:mikebeggs@waitrose.com>
*To:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, October 08, 2006 11:00 AM
*Subject:* Re: [sailwave] ISAF and Nationals/Worlds
Gordan,
You seem to have lost sight of the original complaint by Colin. It
was:-
"Apparently the F16 cats a class I am closely associated with via
the A ( the As and F16s seem to have a thing going!) cannot have a
"Nationals" or a "Worlds" because of ISAF regulations" I have no
aversion to ISAF except it it does things like that.
If this is correct, and you have never denied it, ISAF is
overbearing and restrictive (like Rugby Union was once???) and
will drive competitors to set up their rival code.
I note Rugby Union, having been beaten by Rugby League, over the
'professional' issue, was forced in the end to join them.
Maybe ISAF should change to allow the F16's to do what they want,
and then the danger of a split can be averted?
I'm surprised you view the 'International Regulations for the
prevention of collisions at sea' as to "change the rules so
drastically.". They are a legal requirement for every vessel going
afloat. They are also the basis for ISAF rules, like port gives
way to starboard, and windward gives way to leeward. Not only
that, yacht racing after dark is carried out according to them -
but of course they are not ISAF 'copyright' !.
Mike.
gordon davies wrote:
Mike,
Surely, if you change the rules so drastically then you are
creating, in many respects, a new sport. A bit like Rugby Union
and Rugby League. If that is the intention, I would be interested
to know why you think this is necessary. What, apart from your
avowed aversion to any contact with the international
organisation which regulates the sport of racing under sail,
justifies this
We will be celebrating next year the foundation of the IYRU,
when, for the first time all European racing was conducted under
a single, mutually agreed, set of rules (based upon the 1875
Yacht Racing Association rules). Do we really ant to return to a
situation where each club, each class used a different set of rules?
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Mike Beggs <mailto:mikebeggs@waitrose.com>
*To:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, October 07, 2006 12:04 AM
*Subject:* Re: [sailwave] ISAF and Nationals/Worlds
Gordon,
Agreed, except your second paragraph which shows you have
missed my
original point.
I proposed organising an event held under the "Regulations
for the
prevention of collisions at sea". No reference to ISAF or MNA.or
affiliated Club.
The sailing instructions can set up a Protest Committee whose
decision
is final and everyone can go away happy.
Mike.
gordon davies wrote:
> Mike,
>
> As long as they call it something like the UK F16
Association Open
> Championship or the World F16 Association Open
Championship. These
> names seem perfectly adequate.
>
> In any case, if the Class Association wishes to deny right
of appeal,
> so as to ensure a definitive result, they will have to
comply with the
> stipulations of the relevant MNA.
>
> The use of the title National or World Championship without
MNA or
> ISAF approval would just be a gratuitous act of
provocation, and in my
> view unnecessary.
>
> In my view, rather than getting het up about the name of
the event, it
> is far better to devote time and energy to recruiting a
competent Race
> Officer, providing up to date SIs and adequate race management
> equipment, a Jury Chairman who will be present on the water to
> encourage rule observance (rather than turning up an hour
or two after
> sailing to see if anyone has dared protest) and a competent
Measurer
> who has read and understood the class rules, and, of
course, a Scorer,
> using Sailwave, who will have provisional results ready as
competitors
> arrive on shore.
>
> Sailors know the value of an event...there are some World
or National
> titles that are not worth much.
>
> Gordon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Mike Beggs <mailto:mikebeggs@waitrose.com
<mailto:mikebeggs%40waitrose.com>>
> *To:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>>
> *Sent:* Friday, October 06, 2006 9:42 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [sailwave] ISAF and Nationals/Worlds
>
> Gordon,
> I agree with all you say in your last email.
> So therefore F16 cats can have any Worlds or Nationals they
like,
> because ISAF will not be the organising authority.
> Problem solved - so Colin can do whatever he wants as long
as he is
> getting no grant aid from RYA.
> Mike.
>
> gordon davies wrote:
> > Mike,
> >
> > Classes voluntarily apply for International status,
presumably
> because
> > they see an advantage in doing so. They also have the
> possibility of
> > demanding to opt out of their International status. Does
anyone
> know
> > of a class that has done this?
> >
> > The rules can be substantially modified within the
ISAF/RRS system.
> > There are a few classes that have remained outside this
> system... the
> > Thames Barges is (I believe) one example: however there
have not
> been
> > many new boats built recently.
> >
> > ISAF only IMPOSES their own Judges and Measurers on
events for
> which
> > the they are themselves the organising authority. In all
other
> cases
> > the organising authority invites race officials from
among the
> > available qualified judges. The class association has every
> > possibility to be a full member of the organising
authority and
> thus
> > choose the race officials they wish. If a race official is
> considered
> > incompetent there is a well established reporting
procedure. Race
> > officials must re-apply for qualification every 4 years, and
> negative
> > reports are taken into consideration.
> >
> > It has been my experience that problems often arise when
> organisers,
> > including class associations, have not taken the trouble
to prepare
> > adequately. A classic example is the use of out-dated sailing
> > instructions, copied from one year to another, incorporating
> > instructions to solve problems that no longer exist.
> >
> > Rather than being restrictive and overbearing I find the
present
> ISAF
> > system incredibly flexible. In many countries, France
being an
> > example, the National Authority considerably limited the
liberty of
> > clubs and classes, who must follow the FFV stipulations
or risk
> losing
> > substantial grant aid. For instance all events use
standard sailing
> > instruction. Thus you will never see a P flag on a committee
> boat in
> > France as the FFV requires that all starts use, as a
minimum the I
> > flag. The RYA does not do this.
> >
> > Gordon
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Mike Beggs <mailto:mikebeggs@waitrose.com
<mailto:mikebeggs%40waitrose.com>
> <mailto:mikebeggs%40waitrose.com>>
> > *To:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>>
> > *Sent:* Friday, October 06, 2006 12:34 AM
> > *Subject:* Re: [sailwave] ISAF and Nationals/Worlds
> >
> > Gordon,
> > You say "As I understand it you are proposing an Unilateral
> > Declaration
> > of Independence and a breakaway from the present
organisation of
> > sailing."
> > No, I am proposing a Unilateral Declaration of
Independence and a
> > breakaway from the present organisation which is trying
to stop
> > sailing
> > (except under it's own control)
> > I never said we should not sail according to a mutually
agreed
> set of
> > rules, I just said they need not be 'copyright' of ISAF.
> > Also I am not convinced of the need for highly expensive
and often
> > incompetent Judges and Measurers imposed on International
Classes by
> > ISAF. Jobs for the boys ?
> > If you think it is 'eminently sensible' then you can
relax and let
> > those
> > who think it restrictive and overbearing do their own
thing too.
> > Mike
> >
> > gordon davies wrote:
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > As I understand it you are proposing an Unilateral
Declaration of
> > > Independence and a breakaway from the present
organisation of
> > sailing.
> > > I fail to see what a bunch of boats milling around and
maybe
> > sailing
> > > around the same course has to do with the sport of
sailing. Or
> > are you
> > > proposing a return to more ancient rules, with crews
brandishing
> > > cutlasses to cut opponents rigging. One of the fundamental
> > elements in
> > > the structure of any sport is the acceptance, by
competitors and
> > > organisers, of a set of mutually agreed rules.
> > >
> > > The different regulations pertaining to the use of the
World and
> > > National Championship titles seem eminently sensible in
that they
> > > prevent the devaluation of the title. Would you prefer
a boxing
> > > scenario with multiple World championships of little or no
> value? A
> > > World Championship is organised with the authorisation
of the
> > > recognised world wide organisation of our sport. This
guarantees
> > (at
> > > least that is the intention) that the title actually means
> > something.
> > > In the same way National Authorities authorise and regulate
> > National
> > > Championships.
> > >
> > > Class associations that do not meet ISAF, or MNA,
requirements
> have
> > > total liberty to organise Open Championships... so the
UK F16
> > > Association can organise the UK F16 Open Championships.
Is the
> > > enjoyment of the competitors, or the honour accorded to the
> winner,
> > > any less because the event is Open and not National?
> > >
> > > Gordon Davies
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > *From:* Mike Beggs <mailto:mikebeggs@waitrose.com
<mailto:mikebeggs%40waitrose.com>
> <mailto:mikebeggs%40waitrose.com>
> > <mailto:mikebeggs%40waitrose.com>>
> > > *To:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>>
> > > *Sent:* Thursday, October 05, 2006 10:37 AM
> > > *Subject:* Re: [sailwave] ISAF and Nationals/Worlds
> > >
> > > Colin,
> > > I have heard this twaddle before.
> > > You can, of course, do whatever you like in the way of
events and
> > > titles, provided you do not fall within RRS 87.1..
> > > The only possible involvement would be if you state in
the Sailing
> > > Instructions that the event is held under the banner of
an RYA
> > > affiliated club or association, as then the RYA might
stick their
> > > finger
> > > in the pie, or if the Rules quoted are ISAF Racing Rules of
> Sailing
> > > 2005-2008 as then ISAF might say 'copyright'.
> > > I suggest you call the organising authority 'World
Catamaran Race
> > > Organisation' (or what you will) and then put in the
"Rules :
> > > 'Regulations for Prevention of Collisions at Sea'
together with
> > those
> > > conventional courtesies acknowledged by racing sailors" or
> > equivalent.
> > > Then you can do what you like.
> > > It would, of course, be impolite to choose a title
which might
> cause
> > > confusion with established ISAF event - like "Olympic
Regatta
> > > 2007" or
> > > "Laser Worlds" as ISAF might think you are trying to
muscle in on
> > > their
> > > lucrative rackets.
> > > Good sailing !
> > > Mike.
> > >
> > > Colin Jenkins wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Apparently the F16 cats (a class I am closely
associated with
> > > via the A -
> > > > the As and F16s seem to have a thing going!) cannot
have a
> > > "Nationals" or a
> > > > "Worlds" because of ISAF regulatiions. So they are
getting round
> > > it by
> > > > having events like a "Global Challenge". Does anybody
know the
> > > deal here
> > > > precisely; I'm having trouble believing ISAF have any
'power'
> > > over what a
> > > > group of guys decide to call an event when they get
together
> > and go
> > > > sailng...!
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Colin
> > > > www.sailwave.com
> > > >
> > > > --
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> > > 03/10/2006
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