Hi Jon,

I’m attempting to address the issues with the current TLE scoring method. I’m wondering if we could implement a scoring code method where the score is based on the points of the last boat to finish and not receive a letter score, plus n points.

I understand that I could manually calculate this for each race, but I’m hoping to avoid that.

Hi Peter,

I’ll have a look and see what I can do.

Currently scoring at the RS 30th Anniversary Event

Jon

Hi Peter,

The key bit of course is ‘*the last boat to finish*’, i.e meet definition of finishing in RRS, within the time limit. However, the formatting can already configured so that only the points show.

Personally, I would like code showing so that it highlights that a competitor has not met finishing definition.

I presume because of the RRS definition of finishing, a boat given TLE is not considered to have finished?

The impact of having a TLE code needs to be considered for long series racing RRS Appendix A A5.3. Would it be fair that a boat could be be finished under TLE procedure but be scored more points than boat recorded DNF, RET, OCS, UFD?

Have I missed something in my understanding?

Kind regards,

Huw

Hi Huw,

It’s clear that I didn’t explain it correctly and we would never use it for long series.

Let assume we had a race with the following results:

Boat | Result | Comment | Posted score |

- | - | - | - |

A | 1 | | 1 |

B | 2 | | 2 |

C | 3 | | 3 |

D | 4 | | 4 |

E | RET | did meet the definition of finish ( retired after finishing) | 11 RET |

F | DSQ | did meet the definition of finish | 11 DSQ |

G | RDG | 2nd place redress awarded | 2 RDG |

H | UFD | did meet the definition of finish | 11 UFD |

I | UFD | did not meet the definition of finish | 11 UFD |

K | TLE | | 5 TLE |

In the above example, a TLE score would be 1 point more than the points of the last boat that finished and didn’t receive a “letter” score.

I am attempting to avoid the Race Committee having to track whether certain “letter” score results meet the definition of Finish or not and to avoid having two scoring codes for those “letter” score definitions (e.g., an UFD code for boats that met the finish definition and an UFD code for those that didn’t meet the finish definition).

I am aiming to use TLE, but not with the current World Sailing suggested instruction, which has a major flaw and adds more requirements for the Race Committee.

The current WS suggested instruction:

The Finishing Window is the time for boats to finish after the first boat sails the course and finishes. Boats failing to finish within the Finishing Window, and not subsequently retiring, penalized or given redress, will be scored Time Limit Expired (TLE) without a hearing. A boat scored TLE shall be scored points for the finishing place [one][two] more than the points scored by the last boat that finished within the Finishing Window. This changes RRS 35, A5.1, A5.2 and A10.

Let assume that boat H was the last boat to finish within the window. With the above instruction, Boat H would receive 11 + 1 or 2 points, which is not the intended outcome.

I did submit a WS Q&A over one year ago regarding this, but I have not received an answer as of today.

Peter

Peter,

If boat H was scored UFD, i.e. infringed rule 30.3, doesn’t that mean that she failed to Start, thus can’t be considered to be a finisher?

Hi Peter,

I agree you might not use TLE for a long series but there could be clubs who would want to

Kind regards,

Huw

Malcolm,

There have been discussions regarding this in the past, but I’ll explain it for boat H in a UFD scenario.

For a boat to be a finisher, she has to meet the definition of “*Finish*” and she needs to meet the definition of "*Start"* because it is part of the definition of *Finish*.

In my example:

- Boat H was in the triangle 1 minute before her starting signal (she broke RRS 30.3)
- At her starting signal her hull was on the pre-start side and then she crossed the starting line from the pre-start side to the course side. ( she met the definition of
*start*)
- A part of her hull crossed the finishing line from the course side ( she met the definition of
*Finish*)
- She will be receiving an UFD starting penalty, but that doesn’t change that she met the definition of
*Finish*
- On a side note:
- If she
*sailed the course,* she will trigger as per RRS 35 the time limit

My example is related to a UFD penalty, but it applies to many other letter scores.

Formatting seems to have been totally messed up – RESEND

Some general and specific comments:

I tend to think time limits in general are a BAD policy. The usual

argument for the policy is “to allow additional races to be run” but in

my experience the boats that end up getting cut off are usually sailing

as fast as they can toward the finishing line anyway so there is no real

time gained for an additional start by having a time limit.

The obvious exception is when the wind completely dies and no more boats

are ever going to finish within any reasonable time. In some places that

might happen fairly often but in others (like where I race) it will be

very rare. I think a good RC will recognize when a dying wind “scr**s” a

significant portion of the fleet and will abandon the race as allowed by

RRS 32.1(d). That makes the TLE problem go away.

You probably want the TLE score to relate to all the boats that

“competed” in the race. You know a boat “competed” when she sails around

the course and crosses the finishing line. Pre-2021, all boats that

crossed the finishing line from the course side had “finished” and so

were finishers. The 2021-24 RRS caused a problem by saying you cannot

“finish” unless you “started” correctly. That will change on January 1,

2025 when “after starting” will be changed to “after her starting

signal” in the Definition: Finish. So, it should be possible to go back

to using “finishers” for calculating a TLE score. We’ll have to wait

until World Sailing releases the text of the new rulebook to the public.

If you want to have a special score for TLE I’d suggest “2 more than the

number of boats crossing the finishing line.” Why not “1 more than …”?

– a boat that recognizes what is happening and is the last boat likely

to finish before a time limit will get the same score whether or not she

actually crosses the finishing line (as last finisher or last finisher

before her plus one). You don’t really want that, you want boats to

continue racing up until the time limit and so “2 more than …” gives a

boat an incentive to improve her score by one point by continuing to

race until the time limit. Of course, you could give a bigger incentive

by using a number greater than 2.

IMHO World Sailing really messed up the concept of “finishing” in the

current rulebook. The new 2025-28 rulebook is expected to fix that but

we won’t know that for certain until the final text of the new rulebook

is released on July 1, 2024.

Art