We are using Sailwave 2:16:7 in RYA NHC Esternal/Debug mode for our Cruiser races. In publishing results we find that the published Re-align figure does not agree with the next race handicap used and on looking at the results it does not seem that the 2014 re-alignment is in place.
Are we doing something wrong? The file is attached.
Regards
Richard Hopper
Hi Richard,
There is a difference between NHC2013 and NHC2014
NHC2013 did not realign any ratings during the series, but at the end of each race Sailwave calculates what the realigned value would be although this is not normally used - It is used however when it is the last race in the series as this is the figure that is used for the next series.
NHC2014 does not have a realigned field as the ratings of all the competitors (that sailed) are always automatically realigned at the end of every race. So there is no realignment to be done by the user in NHC2014.
Hope this helps
Jon
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”
On 3 July 2014 08:46, richardhopper365@yahoo.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
We are using Sailwave 2:16:7 in RYA NHC Esternal/Debug mode for our Cruiser races. In publishing results we find that the published Re-align figure does not agree with the next race handicap used and on looking at the results it does not seem that the 2014 re-alignment is in place.
Are we doing something wrong? The file is attached.
Regards
Richard Hopper
Thank you Jon. What I wanted to show in the published results was the handicap to be used in the next race.
I cannot see any evidence that the programme is re-aligning the handicaps after each race.
Richard
Richard
Currently the only way to publish the ratings for the next race is to publish the next race. This would look like this
There are obviously no results so you need to tick the box include DNC results but it does give you what you want. It is on my todo list to add the ability to include it in the series results
Jon
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”
On 3 July 2014 09:55, richardhopper365@yahoo.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Thank you Jon. What I wanted to show in the published results was the handicap to be used in the next race.
I cannot see any evidence that the programme is re-aligning the handicaps after each race.
Richard
Thank you Jon but I am still concerned that the re-alignment after each race does not appear to be taking place in our series. It still looks as if we are using the 2013 system despite the fact that we are using the current version.
Richard
Hi Richard,
Are you using the 2013 Excel helper file or the newer 2014 version?
Kind regards,
Huw
On 03/07/2014 13:49,
[sailwave] wrote:
Thank you Jon but I am still concerned that there-alignment after each race does not appear to be taking
place in our series. It still looks as if we are using the
2013 system despite the fact that we are using the current
version.
Richard
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Hi Richard,
I did do a rescore using the NHC2014 system and did get different ratings from you although the overall results didn’t change.
As you have Sailwave set to use the external template it will depend upon which template you are using. Have you modified the location of templates in the global settings?
If you click rescore you should get excel open if you then select the “config” worksheet it will display the version of the template you are using - It should be 2014-01-05-0
This should normally be installed with the latest version but if you need it then it can be downloaded from
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/220425/SWNHC3.xls
Jon
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”
On 3 July 2014 13:49, richardhopper365@yahoo.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Thank you Jon but I am still concerned that the re-alignment after each race does not appear to be taking place in our series. It still looks as if we are using the 2013 system despite the fact that we are using the current version.
Richard
Thank you Jon. I was using the 2013 template but I had never modified its location. I have reinstalled the programme but still get the out of date template. I presume that is because SW Helper is out of date.
Richard
Hi Richard,
Its my fault the installer wasn’t installing the new template file - I’ve updated the installer now so hopefully it is OK now so either download again 2_16_7_1 or just download the template as per my earlier email. Sorry
Regards
Jon
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”
On 3 July 2014 17:40, richardhopper365@yahoo.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Thank you Jon. I was using the 2013 template but I had never modified its location. I have reinstalled the programme but still get the out of date template. I presume that is because SW Helper is out of date.
Richard
Thank you Jon. I have now installed the up to date template.
Best wishes
Richard
Now all you have to do Richard is look very carefully at the effect of the realignment after each race, and realise the degree of the distortion this causes for your results. It might not be that great for you if most of the boats sail in all races. Better to amend the spreadsheet to remove the realignment, and always use external mode with this amendment. RYA have now accepted there is an issue, as I’ve previously commented on here.
Alan
On 4 Jul 2014, at 06:38, “richardhopper365@yahoo.com [sailwave]” sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Thank you Jon. I have now installed the up to date template.
Best wishes
Richard
Just for interest - the finishing positions in this case - at least after 6 races where the same for NHC2013 as NHC2014 - would be interesting to see what effect removing the re-alignment has
Jon
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”
On 4 July 2014 07:33, Alan Spence alan.spence@ntlworld.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Now all you have to do Richard is look very carefully at the effect of the realignment after each race, and realise the degree of the distortion this causes for your results. It might not be that great for you if most of the boats sail in all races. Better to amend the spreadsheet to remove the realignment, and always use external mode with this amendment. RYA have now accepted there is an issue, as I’ve previously commented on here.
Alan
On 4 Jul 2014, at 06:38, “richardhopper365@yahoo.com [sailwave]” sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Thank you Jon. I have now installed the up to date template.
Best wishes
Richard
Hi Jon,
We will shortly be scoring NHC races in Falmouth Week. We would like to show the ‘next race handicap’ as part of the standard publishing process, without publishing again with the ratings set. We don’t have a spare button on the website, and it is another job for the scorer in a high pressure environment (we upload from the Committee Boat, there are multiple fleets and it gets very hectic).
Would it be possible to show the next race rating on the series results scoring publication page. At present the series scoring page always shows the R1 rating. Could it show both R1 and R next, or even just R next. The individual race results always show the current race rating, so are visible to competitors.
The discussion about the alignment is very interesting, do you think there will be any change from the RYA before August 10th (Falmouth Week) ? As you know, we at Flushing are dual scoring IRC and NHC this season, but the vast majority of our boats have now got IRC certificates and I don’t think they take the NHC results very seriously, because of the way the numbers jump about.
Regards Mike
Alan whilst I accept that realignment after each race introduces distortion; the distortion is nothing like so great as when a competitor enters the series late and uses the boat’s base handicap. We experienced this last year on two occasions!
The base handicaps are I believe crude and tend to over estimate performance this coupled with adjustments of 30% for good performance and 15% for poor tends to push up handicaps. The RYA have done this to discourage “sandbagging”. I am of the view that an adjustment of say 25% for good and poor would improve the system and realignment.
Richard
Richard, You do indeed identify the issue that caused people to think realignment after every race is a good idea, but there’s another way round this issue (see next paragraph). And, this issue isn’t enough to justify causing the NHC 2014 system not to work soundly week in week out as boats drop out of and into the boats actually racing. Any progressive system that can cause the progression to be materially caused by something other than boat’s relative performances is broken. I accept that if a very large number of boats sail week in, week out, and that is the pool that the realignment at the end of 2013 was based on, then there won’t be as great a problem, but I think there are many clubs where the participants in a series does vary quite a bit week by week, and a progressive system that doesn’t work in these circumstances isn’t sound.
The issue of when a competitor enters the series late would in my opinion be better dealt with by realigning the new entrant to the rest of the fleet - the relativities then will be exactly the same as NHC 2014 is achieving. (Multiply the new entrants base rating by the inverse of the realignment factor you would use under NHC 2014.) Technically you should also realign every boat that misses a race when it rejoins (but using their previous race handicap, not the base), but if you don’t do this, the effect will be of much lower order than the effect of the current realignment.
No one who’s looked at my spreadsheet and commentary has come back to me disagreeing with what I’m saying (yet!), and it does demonstrate a real problem
NHC 2014 does deal with extreme performers, I think well, and this may mean there isn’t the need to adjust poor performers by only 15% any more - your suggestion of 25% both good and poor is worth considering and would be easy to test with the external mode which has parameters for these which can be easily changed. As you say this would also reduce the drift (which does need end of series or end of year realignment), but it wouldn’t stop the effect of boats dropping in and out of the pool being used for realignment, which is what makes NHC 2014 flawed.
Alan
On 5 Jul 2014, at 08:49, “richardhopper365@yahoo.com [sailwave]” sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Alan whilst I accept that realignment after each race introduces distortion; the distortion is nothing like so great as when a competitor enters the series late and uses the boat’s base handicap. We experienced this last year on two occasions!
The base handicaps are I believe crude and tend to over estimate performance this coupled with adjustments of 30% for good performance and 15% for poor tends to push up handicaps. The RYA have done this to discourage “sandbagging”. I am of the view that an adjustment of say 25% for good and poor would improve the system and realignment.
Richard