Running version: 2.9.4
Series scored is NHC club
Don't have excel installed so can't run debug
···
------------
Here's the problem:
I have a series of 22 races.
1 boat races 6 of the first 13 races and scores places 8, 13, 13, 14, 10, 15,
On this 6th race the boat starts with a rating of 0.827 (series start default was 0.843) so the rating has progressively been eased. He has a real bummer when he finishes 15th (16 in race), but then on his 7th race Sailwave gives him a rating of 0.708 and he goes on to win.
Not only that, he races 3 more of the remaining 8 races and wins all 3!
By the end of the series his rating has been adjusted by sailwave to 0.811
So I then tried regatta mode scoring thinking it would make the problem worse, but the outcome was identical.
I'm no mathmetician, but this just feels wrong?
My fleet is trying to decide whether to use HNC for 2013 and this outcome doesn't fill me with confidence. If I don't have excel is there a way that this can be checked by someone if I send you the series file, perhaps I'm doing something wrong!
'Scuse my cynicism, but I suspect that you have discovered one of the issues with using predetermined formulae for calculating personal handicaps. I suspect that your dodgy boat was way off any sort of competitive time for race 6 (you do say “real bummer”), which caused the large handicap change (sounds like the potential changes are not bounded / constrained within a small margin - but I’ve not looked at the code), then had a series of small winning margins in the last 3 races (nothing excessive to drop its handicap significantly).
Hopefully I’m wrong, and there is a bug, as I was hoping to hand our personal handicap series over to ANO with instructions on how to crank the handle but nothing else!
I’ll be watching this with interest
Mike
Lancing SC
1 boat races 6 of the first 13 races and scores places 8, 13, 13, 14, 10, 15,
On this 6th race the boat starts with a rating of 0.827 (series start default was 0.843) so the rating has progressively been eased. He has a real bummer when he finishes 15th (16 in race), but then on his 7th race Sailwave gives him a rating of 0.708 and he goes on to win.
Not only that, he races 3 more of the remaining 8 races and wins all 3!
By the end of the series his rating has been adjusted by sailwave to 0.811
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "kitedrop1960" <sailingmiles@>
wrote:
> 1 boat races 6 of the first 13 races and scores places 8, 13, 13, 14,
10, 15,
> On this 6th race the boat starts with a rating of 0.827 (series start
default was 0.843) so the rating has progressively been eased. He has a
real bummer when he finishes 15th (16 in race), but then on his 7th race
Sailwave gives him a rating of 0.708 and he goes on to win.
> Not only that, he races 3 more of the remaining 8 races and wins all
3!
>
> By the end of the series his rating has been adjusted by sailwave to
0.811
>
'Scuse my cynicism, but I suspect that you have discovered one of the
issues with using predetermined formulae for calculating personal
handicaps. I suspect that your dodgy boat was way off any sort of
competitive time for race 6 (you do say "real bummer"), which caused the
large handicap change (sounds like the potential changes are not bounded
/ constrained within a small margin - but I've not looked at the code),
then had a series of small winning margins in the last 3 races (nothing
excessive to drop its handicap significantly).
Hopefully I'm wrong, and there is a bug, as I was hoping to hand our
personal handicap series over to ANO with instructions on how to crank
the handle but nothing else!
I'll be watching this with interest
Mike
Lancing SC
I wonder if this has something to do with you not having excel installed, as a lot of the calcs are referenced to the excel sheet running in the background, but then I’d expect it to throw an error out?
First the calculation results should be the same whether you have Excel installed or not, it does not use Excel when you use the internal mode all calculations are done by the program itself. The Excel version is very useful however for seeing how the results were arrived at and for generating your own custom schemes.
If you would like to send me your blw file or Paul as he has already offered - we could run it through the Excel version and send you the spreadsheet which you can view on google for the Race’s in question. If you think the algorithm needs some adjustment then the best thing you can do is first check that the results are correct and then send the example to the RYA. The more examples they have the better they can fine tune the algorithm.
The Back Calculated Time is the amount of time that the boat would need to have been quicker by to come equal first .e.g. a Back calculated time of 2:23 would mean the boat would have to have been 2 mins 23 seconds faster to have become equal first. The winning boat by definition therefore has a value of 00:00:00
I wonder if this has something to do with you not having excel installed, as a lot of the calcs are referenced to the excel sheet running in the background, but then I’d expect it to throw an error out?
Paul has correctly pointed out that in race 13 two boats have an invalid elapsed time
Also there are two boats that have raced without any Handicap / Rating specified
There are boats included which have not raced in any races. You must exclude any boats that don’t race in any races otherwise this can disrupt the re-align figures.
The documentation states that the maximum no of active boats that can be handled by the spreadsheet without modifying the template is 40. This file does fit within these limits as long as the non-racing boats are excluded. The program will work with larger spreadsheets but it is a compromise. If you make the template larger then it makes the files bigger and the calculations slower. A size of 40 was considered enough for most club races. Should you wish to use more than 40 you will need to expand the template. I will look at putting a facility to specify in the config worksheet, the size of the main worksheet so that a Warning is generated.
I wonder if this has something to do with you not having excel installed, as a lot of the calcs are referenced to the excel sheet running in the background, but then I’d expect it to throw an error out?
1) Paul has correctly pointed out that in race 13 two boats have an
invalid elapsed time
2) Also there are two boats that have raced without any Handicap /
Rating
specified
3) There are boats included which have not raced in any races. You
must
exclude any boats that don't race in any races otherwise this can
disrupt
the re-align figures.
4) The documentation states that the maximum no of active boats that
can
be handled by the spreadsheet without modifying the template is 40.
This
file does fit within these limits as long as the non-racing boats are
excluded. The program will work with larger spreadsheets but it is a
compromise.
Thanks for your rapid response Jon. I'll still be interested in hearing
how the adjustment method handles 'real bummer' performances - over to
kitedrop1960 to sort the results file!
I'd not spotted the 40 boat limit - is that per race or series? (Yes, I
know, RTFM....). If per series then definitely 'low' for a club dinghy
series.
Cheers
Mike
Lancing SC
I wonder if this has something to do with you not having excel installed, as a lot of the calcs are referenced to the excel sheet running in the background, but then I’d expect it to throw an error out?
I'm new to this forum although have been a sailwave user for some years....
I am struggling with the NHC results and have done the following:
1. started a new series in v2.9.4
2. Entered the competitors from a series run last season.
3. Entered the elapsed times from that series (with a few OOD results)
4. Scored the series using the debug mode for each race
Now it gets messy. Sometimes I have seen the results produced look correct to the incremental spreadsheet but after re-score is selected, the results change and one boat becomes a clear winner in the results shown in sailwave and from what I have seen, different to the spreadsheet.
So despite getting first place a boat will get a better handicap in the next race and become unbeatable.
I understand the concept of the adjustments and can replicate the maths in my own spreadsheet but an concerned that Sailwave (at least the beta version) isn't getting it right in my series.
many thanks jon & paul. let me revisit the file.
On Mar 15, 2013 11:39 PM, "Jon Eskdale" <jon@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> OK - Looking at the blw file.
>
> 1) Paul has correctly pointed out that in race 13 two boats have an
> invalid elapsed time
> 2) Also there are two boats that have raced without any Handicap / Rating
> specified
> 3) There are boats included which have not raced in any races. You must
> exclude any boats that don't race in any races otherwise this can disrupt
> the re-align figures.
> 4) The documentation states that the maximum no of active boats that can
> be handled by the spreadsheet without modifying the template is 40. This
> file does fit within these limits as long as the non-racing boats are
> excluded. The program will work with larger spreadsheets but it is a
> compromise. If you make the template larger then it makes the files bigger
> and the calculations slower. A size of 40 was considered enough for most
> club races. Should you wish to use more than 40 you will need to expand
> the template. I will look at putting a facility to specify in the config
> worksheet, the size of the main worksheet so that a Warning is generated.
>
> Jon
>
> Jon Eskdale
> Sailwave
> 03333 443377
> 07976 709777
>
>
> On 15 March 2013 19:24, Paul Craig <sailtastic@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> I wonder if this has something to do with you not having excel installed,
>> as a lot of the calcs are referenced to the excel sheet running in the
>> background, but then I'd expect it to throw an error out?
>>
>> Send me the file and I'll take a look at it.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
>> From: sailingmiles@...
>> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 18:07:46 +0000
>> Subject: [sailwave] Re: NHC adjustment - Surely this outcome can't be
>> correct?
>>
>>
>>
>> What is a Back Calculated Time and why would it show 00:00:00?
>>
>> This is what I see on the audit tab for the boat that begins winning in
>> the explanation I gave.
>>
>> --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mike.croker@> wrote:
>> >
>> > --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "kitedrop1960" <sailingmiles@>
>> > wrote:
>> > > 1 boat races 6 of the first 13 races and scores places 8, 13, 13, 14,
>> > 10, 15,
>> > > On this 6th race the boat starts with a rating of 0.827 (series start
>> > default was 0.843) so the rating has progressively been eased. He has a
>> > real bummer when he finishes 15th (16 in race), but then on his 7th race
>> > Sailwave gives him a rating of 0.708 and he goes on to win.
>> > > Not only that, he races 3 more of the remaining 8 races and wins all
>> > 3!
>> > >
>> > > By the end of the series his rating has been adjusted by sailwave to
>> > 0.811
>> > >
>> > 'Scuse my cynicism, but I suspect that you have discovered one of the
>> > issues with using predetermined formulae for calculating personal
>> > handicaps. I suspect that your dodgy boat was way off any sort of
>> > competitive time for race 6 (you do say "real bummer"), which caused the
>> > large handicap change (sounds like the potential changes are not bounded
>> > / constrained within a small margin - but I've not looked at the code),
>> > then had a series of small winning margins in the last 3 races (nothing
>> > excessive to drop its handicap significantly).
>> > Hopefully I'm wrong, and there is a bug, as I was hoping to hand our
>> > personal handicap series over to ANO with instructions on how to crank
>> > the handle but nothing else!
>> > I'll be watching this with interest
>> > Mike
>> > Lancing SC
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Always willing to check it could you give me an example where you think it is wrong. That is where you think it has calculated it wrong. If you think the algorithm should be different then that has to go to the RYA.
I’m new to this forum although have been a sailwave user for some years…
I am struggling with the NHC results and have done the following:
started a new series in v2.9.4
Entered the competitors from a series run last season.
Entered the elapsed times from that series (with a few OOD results)
Scored the series using the debug mode for each race
Now it gets messy. Sometimes I have seen the results produced look correct to the incremental spreadsheet but after re-score is selected, the results change and one boat becomes a clear winner in the results shown in sailwave and from what I have seen, different to the spreadsheet.
So despite getting first place a boat will get a better handicap in the next race and become unbeatable.
I understand the concept of the adjustments and can replicate the maths in my own spreadsheet but an concerned that Sailwave (at least the beta version) isn’t getting it right in my series.
I revisited the file, removed the boats that didn’t race and the ones that have no NHC and then re-scored the series.
I still have a problem for Easi Rider. When I display the results by Race Rating, after race, no rating is shown for this boat. Could you check it for me again please? New file attached
I wonder if this has something to do with you not having excel installed, as a lot of the calcs are referenced to the excel sheet running in the background, but then I’d expect it to throw an error out?
If there is an Excel spreadsheet for the NHC calculations out there somewhere I'm wondering if you could point me to it? I've looked at the RYA "term sheet" and some of the calculations seem questionable (meaning "less than ideal" but not "wrong") to me. I'd like to see a spreadsheet to see if it really does what the "term sheet" says.
Art
···
On 3/18/2013 4:12 AM, andypsc wrote:
Hi,
I'm new to this forum although have been a sailwave user for some years....
I am struggling with the NHC results and have done the following:
1. started a new series in v2.9.4
2. Entered the competitors from a series run last season.
3. Entered the elapsed times from that series (with a few OOD results)
4. Scored the series using the debug mode for each race
Now it gets messy. Sometimes I have seen the results produced look correct to the incremental spreadsheet but after re-score is selected, the results change and one boat becomes a clear winner in the results shown in sailwave and from what I have seen, different to the spreadsheet.
So despite getting first place a boat will get a better handicap in the next race and become unbeatable.
I understand the concept of the adjustments and can replicate the maths in my own spreadsheet but an concerned that Sailwave (at least the beta version) isn't getting it right in my series.
many thanks jon& paul. let me revisit the file.
On Mar 15, 2013 11:39 PM, "Jon Eskdale"<jon@...> wrote:
**
OK - Looking at the blw file.
1) Paul has correctly pointed out that in race 13 two boats have an
invalid elapsed time
2) Also there are two boats that have raced without any Handicap / Rating
specified
3) There are boats included which have not raced in any races. You must
exclude any boats that don't race in any races otherwise this can disrupt
the re-align figures.
4) The documentation states that the maximum no of active boats that can
be handled by the spreadsheet without modifying the template is 40. This
file does fit within these limits as long as the non-racing boats are
excluded. The program will work with larger spreadsheets but it is a
compromise. If you make the template larger then it makes the files bigger
and the calculations slower. A size of 40 was considered enough for most
club races. Should you wish to use more than 40 you will need to expand
the template. I will look at putting a facility to specify in the config
worksheet, the size of the main worksheet so that a Warning is generated.
Jon
Jon Eskdale
Sailwave
03333 443377
07976 709777
On 15 March 2013 19:24, Paul Craig<sailtastic@...> wrote:
**
Mike,
I wonder if this has something to do with you not having excel installed,
as a lot of the calcs are referenced to the excel sheet running in the
background, but then I'd expect it to throw an error out?
Send me the file and I'll take a look at it.
Paul
------------------------------
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: sailingmiles@...
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 18:07:46 +0000
Subject: [sailwave] Re: NHC adjustment - Surely this outcome can't be
correct?
What is a Back Calculated Time and why would it show 00:00:00?
This is what I see on the audit tab for the boat that begins winning in
the explanation I gave.
1 boat races 6 of the first 13 races and scores places 8, 13, 13, 14,
10, 15,
On this 6th race the boat starts with a rating of 0.827 (series start
default was 0.843) so the rating has progressively been eased. He has a
real bummer when he finishes 15th (16 in race), but then on his 7th race
Sailwave gives him a rating of 0.708 and he goes on to win.
Not only that, he races 3 more of the remaining 8 races and wins all
3!
By the end of the series his rating has been adjusted by sailwave to
0.811
'Scuse my cynicism, but I suspect that you have discovered one of the
issues with using predetermined formulae for calculating personal
handicaps. I suspect that your dodgy boat was way off any sort of
competitive time for race 6 (you do say "real bummer"), which caused the
large handicap change (sounds like the potential changes are not bounded
/ constrained within a small margin - but I've not looked at the code),
then had a series of small winning margins in the last 3 races (nothing
excessive to drop its handicap significantly).
Hopefully I'm wrong, and there is a bug, as I was hoping to hand our
personal handicap series over to ANO with instructions on how to crank
the handle but nothing else!
I'll be watching this with interest
Mike
Lancing SC
If there is an Excel spreadsheet for the NHC calculations out there
somewhere I’m wondering if you could point me to it? I’ve looked at the
RYA “term sheet” and some of the calculations seem questionable (meaning
“less than ideal” but not “wrong”) to me. I’d like to see a spreadsheet
to see if it really does what the “term sheet” says.
Art
On 3/18/2013 4:12 AM, andypsc wrote:
Hi,
I’m new to this forum although have been a sailwave user for some years…
I am struggling with the NHC results and have done the following:
started a new series in v2.9.4
Entered the competitors from a series run last season.
Entered the elapsed times from that series (with a few OOD results)
Scored the series using the debug mode for each race
Now it gets messy. Sometimes I have seen the results produced look correct to the incremental spreadsheet but after re-score is selected, the results change and one boat becomes a clear winner in the results shown in sailwave and from what I have seen, different to the spreadsheet.
So despite getting first place a boat will get a better handicap in the next race and become unbeatable.
I understand the concept of the adjustments and can replicate the maths in my own spreadsheet but an concerned that Sailwave (at least the beta version) isn’t getting it right in my series.
If there is an Excel spreadsheet for the NHC calculations out there
somewhere I’m wondering if you could point me to it? I’ve looked at the
RYA “term sheet” and some of the calculations seem questionable (meaning
“less than ideal” but not “wrong”) to me. I’d like to see a spreadsheet
to see if it really does what the “term sheet” says.
Art
On 3/18/2013 4:12 AM, andypsc wrote:
Hi,
I’m new to this forum although have been a sailwave user for some years…
I am struggling with the NHC results and have done the following:
started a new series in v2.9.4
Entered the competitors from a series run last season.
Entered the elapsed times from that series (with a few OOD results)
Scored the series using the debug mode for each race
Now it gets messy. Sometimes I have seen the results produced look correct to the incremental spreadsheet but after re-score is selected, the results change and one boat becomes a clear winner in the results shown in sailwave and from what I have seen, different to the spreadsheet.
So despite getting first place a boat will get a better handicap in the next race and become unbeatable.
I understand the concept of the adjustments and can replicate the maths in my own spreadsheet but an concerned that Sailwave (at least the beta version) isn’t getting it right in my series.
If there is an Excel spreadsheet for the NHC calculations out there
somewhere I'm wondering if you could point me to it? I've looked at the
RYA "term sheet" and some of the calculations seem questionable (meaning
"less than ideal" but not "wrong") to me. I'd like to see a spreadsheet
to see if it really does what the "term sheet" says.
Art
On 3/18/2013 4:12 AM, andypsc wrote:
Hi,
I'm new to this forum although have been a sailwave user for some
years....
I am struggling with the NHC results and have done the following:
1. started a new series in v2.9.4
2. Entered the competitors from a series run last season.
3. Entered the elapsed times from that series (with a few OOD results)
4. Scored the series using the debug mode for each race
Now it gets messy. Sometimes I have seen the results produced look
correct to the incremental spreadsheet but after re-score is selected, the
results change and one boat becomes a clear winner in the results shown in
sailwave and from what I have seen, different to the spreadsheet.
So despite getting first place a boat will get a better handicap in the
next race and become unbeatable.
I understand the concept of the adjustments and can replicate the maths
in my own spreadsheet but an concerned that Sailwave (at least the beta
version) isn't getting it right in my series.
On Mar 15, 2013 11:39 PM, "Jon Eskdale"<jon@...> wrote:
**
OK - Looking at the blw file.
1) Paul has correctly pointed out that in race 13 two boats have an
invalid elapsed time
2) Also there are two boats that have raced without any Handicap /
Rating
specified
3) There are boats included which have not raced in any races. You
must
exclude any boats that don't race in any races otherwise this can
disrupt
the re-align figures.
4) The documentation states that the maximum no of active boats that
can
be handled by the spreadsheet without modifying the template is 40.
This
file does fit within these limits as long as the non-racing boats are
excluded. The program will work with larger spreadsheets but it is a
compromise. If you make the template larger then it makes the files
bigger
and the calculations slower. A size of 40 was considered enough for
most
club races. Should you wish to use more than 40 you will need to
expand
the template. I will look at putting a facility to specify in the
config
worksheet, the size of the main worksheet so that a Warning is
generated.
Jon
Jon Eskdale
Sailwave
03333 443377
07976 709777
On 15 March 2013 19:24, Paul Craig<sailtastic@...> wrote:
**
Mike,
I wonder if this has something to do with you not having excel
installed,
as a lot of the calcs are referenced to the excel sheet running in
the
background, but then I'd expect it to throw an error out?
Send me the file and I'll take a look at it.
Paul
------------------------------
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: sailingmiles@...
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 18:07:46 +0000
Subject: [sailwave] Re: NHC adjustment - Surely this outcome can't be
correct?
What is a Back Calculated Time and why would it show 00:00:00?
This is what I see on the audit tab for the boat that begins winning
1 boat races 6 of the first 13 races and scores places 8, 13, 13,
14,
10, 15,
On this 6th race the boat starts with a rating of 0.827 (series
start
default was 0.843) so the rating has progressively been eased. He
has a
real bummer when he finishes 15th (16 in race), but then on his 7th
race
Sailwave gives him a rating of 0.708 and he goes on to win.
Not only that, he races 3 more of the remaining 8 races and wins
all
3!
By the end of the series his rating has been adjusted by sailwave
to
0.811
'Scuse my cynicism, but I suspect that you have discovered one of
the
issues with using predetermined formulae for calculating personal
handicaps. I suspect that your dodgy boat was way off any sort of
competitive time for race 6 (you do say "real bummer"), which
caused the
large handicap change (sounds like the potential changes are not
bounded
/ constrained within a small margin - but I've not looked at the
code),
then had a series of small winning margins in the last 3 races
(nothing
excessive to drop its handicap significantly).
Hopefully I'm wrong, and there is a bug, as I was hoping to hand our
personal handicap series over to ANO with instructions on how to
crank
the handle but nothing else!
I'll be watching this with interest
Mike
Lancing SC
