NHC and DNC vs DNS/DNF

I’ve been tasked by my club to run a RYA NHC scoring system in parallel with our standard PHRF ToD scoring. (We’re currently scoring PHRF via a different solution.)

We have just completed our first race and I’ve got everything entered into Sailwave. I’ve also replaced the SWNHC3.xls file with the contents of the SWNHC2015.xls file.

Our club typically doesn’t use the DNC code, but usually the DNS or DNF codes. I’ve noticed that boats that didn’t start (DNS) are getting their NHC rating adjusted. This doesn’t seem right. If I change it to DNC, it does not get adjusted. I also went into the Scoring System > Scoring codes and changed the DNS to “Score like DNC” and rescored, but the DNS boats are still getting their rating changed.

Should this action change in Sailwave? Or must I force myself to use DNC even in the case of a DNF (or DNS)?

···

==========================

Secondly, could you walk me through the steps needed to set up aliases and other changes needed to have two sets of results: One for RYA NHC, and another for PHRF ToD? I’ve figured out how to make an alias, but the rating for the alias is still listed as NHC3. I’m not sure if I’m supposed to have two “Scoring systems” and any associated fleets, or make these aliases have different fleet names and then have a “Scoring system change” in the Fleets section of the NHC scoring system, or ??? This program is so very powerful, but not entirely self explanatory, nor have I found any comprehensive documentation.

Regards,

Chad

Hi Chad - Welcome to Sailwave

You don’t say whether you are using internal or external NHC Calculations

With NHC if you select internal it will use the NHC2014 specification - With NHC2014 competitors that don’t compete will not get their ratings changed.

If you use external (Uses an Excel template) calculation you can choose any specification you like. Templates are supplied for NHC2014 and NHC2015 specifications or you can supply your own. If you use NHC2015, competitors that don’t race will also have their ratings adjusted.

There are some postings with videos on the use of Alias on this forum.

You don’t say where you are, but perhaps a quick telephone conversation would be quicker to answer your questions.

Drop me an email and we can arrange something.

Jon

···

Jon Eskdale

03333 443377

07530 112233

According to the RYA

In a regatta series if a boat does not compete or is unable to finish a race it also has its handicap adjusted to keep its handicap for the next race current with the rest of the boats. For the purpose of calculating an achieved handicap for these boats
they are given an artificial elapsed time of either the corrected time equal to the average of the first three boats corrected times or the corrected time of the median boat.

See

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/Pages/nhc.aspx&ved=0ahUKEwjomrWiu6TUAhVKx2MKHW9DCFAQFggdMAA&usg=AFQjCNHK-cuD335tvTlVZWgb6JumpMqM1A

···

-------- Original message --------

From: “yahoo_options@we9v.com [sailwave]”

Date:06/03/2017 11:40 PM (GMT-08:00)

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [sailwave] NHC and DNC vs DNS/DNF

I’ve been tasked by my club to run a RYA NHC scoring system in parallel with our standard PHRF ToD scoring. (We’re currently scoring PHRF via a different solution.)

We have just completed our first race and I’ve got everything entered into Sailwave. I’ve also replaced the SWNHC3.xls file with the contents of the SWNHC2015.xls file.

Our club typically doesn’t use the DNC code, but usually the DNS or DNF codes. I’ve noticed that boats that didn’t start (DNS) are getting their NHC rating adjusted. This doesn’t seem right. If I change it to DNC, it does not get adjusted. I also
went into the Scoring System > Scoring codes and changed the DNS to “Score like DNC” and rescored, but the DNS boats are still getting their rating changed.

Should this action change in Sailwave? Or must I force myself to use DNC even in the case of a DNF (or DNS)?

==========================

Secondly, could you walk me through the steps needed to set up aliases and other changes needed to have two sets of results: One for RYA NHC, and another for PHRF ToD? I’ve figured out how to make an alias, but the rating for the alias is still listed
as NHC3. I’m not sure if I’m supposed to have two “Scoring systems” and any associated fleets, or make these aliases have different fleet names and then have a “Scoring system change” in the Fleets section of the NHC scoring system, or ??? This program is
so very powerful, but not entirely self explanatory, nor have I found any comprehensive documentation.

Regards,

Chad

Chad,

Welcome to the club.

Properly speaking, the DNS code means something like "came to the

starting area but did not start" and the DNF code “started the race
but did not finish”. So if a boat just doesn’t show up, it would be
better to use DNC, which means “did not compete”. Sounds like now
would be a good time to regularize your procedures.

jrc
···

On 2017-06-03 9:34 PM,
[sailwave] wrote:

yahoo_options@we9v.com

          I've been tasked by my

club to run a RYA NHC scoring system in parallel with our
standard PHRF ToD scoring. (We’re currently scoring PHRF via a
different solution.)
We have just completed our first race and I’ve got
everything entered into Sailwave. I’ve also replaced the
SWNHC3.xls file with the contents of the SWNHC2015.xls file.

      Our club typically doesn't use the DNC code, but usually

the DNS or DNF codes. I’ve noticed that boats that didn’t
start (DNS) are getting their NHC rating adjusted. This
doesn’t seem right. If I change it to DNC, it does not get
adjusted. I also went into the Scoring System > Scoring
codes and changed the DNS to “Score like DNC” and rescored,
but the DNS boats are still getting their rating changed.

      Should this action change in Sailwave?  Or must I force

myself to use DNC even in the case of a DNF (or DNS)?

==========================

      Secondly, could you walk me through the steps needed to

set up aliases and other changes needed to have two sets of
results: One for RYA NHC, and another for PHRF ToD? I’ve
figured out how to make an alias, but the rating for the alias
is still listed as NHC3. I’m not sure if I’m supposed to have
two “Scoring systems” and any associated fleets, or make these
aliases have different fleet names and then have a “Scoring
system change” in the Fleets section of the NHC scoring
system, or ??? This program is so very powerful, but not
entirely self explanatory, nor have I found any comprehensive
documentation.

Regards,

Chad

John R Culter IRO CAN

      Vancouver Canada

      +1 604 742-8832

Hi Mark,

  In the page you refer to on the RYA web site

[] it specifically
states:

                          "Regatta Series" is no longer supported

by the NHC.

Second paragraph� under “How it works”

Kind regards,

Huw

···

http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/Pages/nhc.aspx
On 04/06/2017 16:19, Mark Townsend
[sailwave] wrote:

s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

According to the RYA

          In a regatta series if a boat does not compete or is

unable to finish a race it also has its handicap adjusted
to keep its handicap for the next race current with the
rest of the boats. For the purpose of calculating an
achieved handicap for these boats they are given an
artificial elapsed time of either the corrected time equal
to the average of the first three boats corrected times or
the corrected time of the median boat.�

See

-------- Original message --------

From:

Date:06/03/2017 11:40 PM (GMT-08:00)

To:

Subject: [sailwave] NHC and DNC vs DNS/DNF


I’ve been tasked by my club to run a RYA
NHC scoring system in parallel with our standard
PHRF ToD scoring. �(We’re currently scoring PHRF
via a different solution.)

                    We have just completed our first race and

I’ve got everything entered into Sailwave. �I’ve
also replaced the SWNHC3.xls file with the
contents of the SWNHC2015.xls file. �

                    Our club typically doesn't use the DNC

code, but usually the DNS or DNF codes. �I’ve
noticed that boats that didn’t start (DNS) are
getting their NHC rating adjusted. �This doesn’t
seem right. �If I change it to DNC, it does not
get adjusted. �I also went into the Scoring
System > Scoring codes and changed the DNS to
“Score like DNC” and rescored, but the DNS boats
are still getting their rating changed.

                    Should this action change in Sailwave? �Or

must I force myself to use DNC even in the case
of a DNF (or DNS)?

==========================

                    Secondly, could you walk me through the

steps needed to set up aliases and other changes
needed to have two sets of results: �One for RYA
NHC, and another for PHRF ToD? �I’ve figured out
how to make an alias, but the rating for the
alias is still listed as NHC3. �I’m not sure if
I’m supposed to have two “Scoring systems” and
any associated fleets, or make these aliases
have different fleet names and then have a
“Scoring system change” in the Fleets section of
the NHC scoring system, or ??? �This program is
so very powerful, but not entirely self
explanatory, nor have I found any comprehensive
documentation.

Regards,

Chad


Virus-free. www.avast.com

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/Pages/nhc.aspx&ved=0ahUKEwjomrWiu6TUAhVKx2MKHW9DCFAQFggdMAA&usg=AFQjCNHK-cuD335tvTlVZWgb6JumpMqM1A"yahoo_options@we9v.com [sailwave]"sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Thank you all for adding to this conversation.

And thanks to Jon for the voice chat this morning/afternoon.

There seems to be several differences between the 2014 rules/calculations and the 2015 version. FYI, the Sailwave internal calculations are based on the 2014 rules. From my conversation with Jon, the default internal calculations are not the 2015 rules/calcs, as there is contradictory information from RYA that prevents Jon from properly implementing Sailwave calculations.

According to the 2014 documentation, “If a boat has not taken part in a specific
race it will receive no adjustment and it will carry forward its current handicap to the next race.” But the 2015 version states, “To
realign all handicaps at the end of a race irrespective of participation.” The way Jon explained it for 2015, as did Mark, was that if the fleet was adjusted down on average, the non-participants were also adjusted down. I guess this makes sense. When using Internal, or manually selecting the 2014 version, it works as expected.

But, if you use External, and point to the 2015 rules, Sailwave does not act as expected. I have 10 competitors in this first race. 8 raced and finished. For the sake of this exercise, I chose DNC for boat 9, and DNS for boat 10. In running the (2015) calculations, the DNC boat does NOT have a new rating. The DNS boat DOES have an adjusted rating. This does not make sense and would appear to not be consistent with the rules of “To realign all handicaps at the end of a race irrespective of participation.” Note that the 2014/Internal calculations do not adjust the handicap of a DNC, DNS, or DNF boat (which seems correct). They all didn’t finish and therefore they all do not receive an adjustment. It would seem that the 2015 version should adjust the handicap whether it’s a DNS, DNC or DNF (or any other code) due to “irrespective of participation”.

John C., thanks for your suggestion to switch to DNC from DNS, but we still like to recognize boats that came out and didn’t finish (DNF). This indicates they tried to participate, but withdrew for whatever reason. In points scoring, it’s all the same (N+1), but again, the 2015 calculations don’t seem to match up.

For those of you who are scoring NHC, what’s the consensus on what version to use? 2014/Internal, or 2015 External? What are your reasons for choosing what you did? It would seem that the NHC was relatively new, they learned something in 2014, and adjusted accordingly in 2015. Therefore, it would seem that 2015 would be preferred. Back on Sailwave 2.18.5 Beta, Jon wrote “Note at the time of writing – Sailwave don’t recommend the use of the 2015 version other than for experimentation.” Based on my chat with Jon this morning, that doesn’t seem to have changed very much, as the RYA spreadsheet has some inconsistencies that haven’t been sorted out.

···

===========================

Lastly, if you found this thread at a later date via a search about using Aliases and Dual Scoring:

I found my way through it and here is some quick documentation on how to do it:

Set everything up with all competitors (including ratings), Scoring System, Races, etc.

Make sure all boats are assigned to a fleet. Then,

Setup > User Interface. Enable Competitor aliasing

Edit > New Competitor Aliasing

Select all competitors that you want to include in the new/dual scoring and hit OK

Note that a new column is added as well as a “@” indicating it’s an alias.

Tools > Set Competitor Field (This will start the process of assigning the alias boats to a new fleet, which is very key.)

Hit the Select Competitors button, then set the filters. At least one filter is required: Alias <> 0. In my case, I added a second filter as I previously had two fleets, so I set: Fleet = (name of fleet 1). To verify you selected the correct ones, you can use the Test button, then hit OK.

Now back in the Set competitor field window, set the “Field to change” to “Fleet”, Action > “Set this Value”, and then type in the name of the new fleet, such as “fleet 1 PHRF”.

Repeat the Tools > Set Competitor Field for each of the original fleets such that the alias boats have been assigned to a new fleet.

Now to add the dual scoring:

Scoring System > Fleets tab, hit the New Fleet button, then Edit Fleet

At the top of the “Edit scoring system fleet” window, where it says “and the value is” “edit me”, change that to your new fleet name.

In the Rating system tab, under the Rating System box, uncheck the Inherit box and then select your new/dual scoring system.

Repeat that for each of your alias fleets.

Lastly, go into each of your alias boats and change their rating unless its identical to the first scoring system, which it is likely not.

Sorry for the long step-by-step explanation, but I spent hours trying to search the usergroup to find bits an pieces of the answers. Now it’s mostly all in one place.

===================

Regards,

Chad

Lake Michigan, Wisconsin, USA

Hi Chad - as to which others are using / reasons I will leave up to them.

With regard to handling of different Result codes - I did include this in the Regatta mode (which the RYA subsequently discontinued)

You can still use the Regatta mode template SWNHC4.xls with Sailwave and its available at https://www.dropbox.com/s/2qg1jqflvkw3c4g/SWNHC4.xls?dl=1

And some emails a few years ago with the RYA

I’ve updated my Regatta spreadsheet to contain a configurable list of Result codes to specify how they get handled

Inline images 1

The first line of codes all get treated the same as DNC - Average of first 3

The Second line all get treated as DNF - Median of finishers

Although I feel we need to define a definitive list of a least how the common codes are handled.

Is this possible?

The above is not necessarily how I think it should be but just an example. DNS is probably straight forward but Should BFD and OCS be the same?

Their reply

I agree with the first line as in a DNS, DNC, BFD & OCS you do not have a true elapsed time and accordingly a performance.

I think the second line should be DNF and remove the others, as in the others I assume there would be an elapsed time and accordingly a performance indication for the boats. However by adding the DSQ, DGM, DNE the boat would be given the points plus 1 of the fleet etc?

Comments welcome

If you want to you could add this to the SWNHC2015 template

You can use different templates with Sailwave by using settings such as

Inline images 1

Just put the template with a different name in the same location as the default template

suggested setting is

Inline images 2

This Template is also interesting because if you look at the formula in the Damping section you can see how the different races have a different damping factor and so the early races affect the rating adjustment faster than the later ones. You can specify how this varies with the race number.

Jon

···

On 5 June 2017 at 02:49, yahoo_options@we9v.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Thank you all for adding to this conversation.

And thanks to Jon for the voice chat this morning/afternoon.

There seems to be several differences between the 2014 rules/calculations and the 2015 version. FYI, the Sailwave internal calculations are based on the 2014 rules. From my conversation with Jon, the default internal calculations are not the 2015 rules/calcs, as there is contradictory information from RYA that prevents Jon from properly implementing Sailwave calculations.

According to the 2014 documentation, “If a boat has not taken part in a specific
race it will receive no adjustment and it will carry forward its current handicap to the next race.” But the 2015 version states, “To
realign all handicaps at the end of a race irrespective of participation.” The way Jon explained it for 2015, as did Mark, was that if the fleet was adjusted down on average, the non-participants were also adjusted down. I guess this makes sense. When using Internal, or manually selecting the 2014 version, it works as expected.

But, if you use External, and point to the 2015 rules, Sailwave does not act as expected. I have 10 competitors in this first race. 8 raced and finished. For the sake of this exercise, I chose DNC for boat 9, and DNS for boat 10. In running the (2015) calculations, the DNC boat does NOT have a new rating. The DNS boat DOES have an adjusted rating. This does not make sense and would appear to not be consistent with the rules of “To realign all handicaps at the end of a race irrespective of participation.” Note that the 2014/Internal calculations do not adjust the handicap of a DNC, DNS, or DNF boat (which seems correct). They all didn’t finish and therefore they all do not receive an adjustment. It would seem that the 2015 version should adjust the handicap whether it’s a DNS, DNC or DNF (or any other code) due to “irrespective of participation”.

John C., thanks for your suggestion to switch to DNC from DNS, but we still like to recognize boats that came out and didn’t finish (DNF). This indicates they tried to participate, but withdrew for whatever reason. In points scoring, it’s all the same (N+1), but again, the 2015 calculations don’t seem to match up.

For those of you who are scoring NHC, what’s the consensus on what version to use? 2014/Internal, or 2015 External? What are your reasons for choosing what you did? It would seem that the NHC was relatively new, they learned something in 2014, and adjusted accordingly in 2015. Therefore, it would seem that 2015 would be preferred. Back on Sailwave 2.18.5 Beta, Jon wrote “Note at the time of writing – Sailwave don’t recommend the use of the 2015 version other than for experimentation.” Based on my chat with Jon this morning, that doesn’t seem to have changed very much, as the RYA spreadsheet has some inconsistencies that haven’t been sorted out.

===========================

Lastly, if you found this thread at a later date via a search about using Aliases and Dual Scoring:

I found my way through it and here is some quick documentation on how to do it:

Set everything up with all competitors (including ratings), Scoring System, Races, etc.

Make sure all boats are assigned to a fleet. Then,

Setup > User Interface. Enable Competitor aliasing

Edit > New Competitor Aliasing

Select all competitors that you want to include in the new/dual scoring and hit OK

Note that a new column is added as well as a “@” indicating it’s an alias.

Tools > Set Competitor Field (This will start the process of assigning the alias boats to a new fleet, which is very key.)

Hit the Select Competitors button, then set the filters. At least one filter is required: Alias <> 0. In my case, I added a second filter as I previously had two fleets, so I set: Fleet = (name of fleet 1). To verify you selected the correct ones, you can use the Test button, then hit OK.

Now back in the Set competitor field window, set the “Field to change” to “Fleet”, Action > “Set this Value”, and then type in the name of the new fleet, such as “fleet 1 PHRF”.

Repeat the Tools > Set Competitor Field for each of the original fleets such that the alias boats have been assigned to a new fleet.

Now to add the dual scoring:

Scoring System > Fleets tab, hit the New Fleet button, then Edit Fleet

At the top of the “Edit scoring system fleet” window, where it says “and the value is” “edit me”, change that to your new fleet name.

In the Rating system tab, under the Rating System box, uncheck the Inherit box and then select your new/dual scoring system.

Repeat that for each of your alias fleets.

Lastly, go into each of your alias boats and change their rating unless its identical to the first scoring system, which it is likely not.

Sorry for the long step-by-step explanation, but I spent hours trying to search the usergroup to find bits an pieces of the answers. Now it’s mostly all in one place.

===================

Regards,

Chad

Lake Michigan, Wisconsin, USA

Jon Eskdale

03333 443377

07530 112233