Noob questions

Imported from Yahoo
1

I really like the Sailwave app but hope it can help us.

How can I configure a DNC for a (long) series to not count. We don't
penalize or reward a DNC, simply they don't get a score. DNC's should
not be counted as races for that competitor either.

My second question: Can I configure individual throwouts? Ie If a
boat races 5 of the 9 races, they still qualify but would not have any
throwouts. A boat racing all 9 would get 3 throwouts. The current
system seems to be series based, not competitor based.

I love the program for Regattas, so we want to get it working for our
series racing

Thanks!

Patrick

2

Hi Patrick,

How can I configure a DNC for a (long) series to not count. We don't

penalize or reward a DNC, simply they don't get a score. DNC's should
not be counted as races for that competitor either.<<

Set it up as a fixed points of 0 and tick the cannot be discarded box.

My second question: Can I configure individual throwouts? Ie If a

boat races 5 of the 9 races, they still qualify but would not have any
throwouts. A boat racing all 9 would get 3 throwouts. The current
system seems to be series based, not competitor based.<<

Not that I can think of; have not come across it before - how does it work -
the boat with 5 races to count seems to have an anutomatic advantage over
the boat with 6 races to count etc...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

···

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3

Colin,

Thanks for your quick reply.

We do have a different seasonal scoring system in use than I have found anywhere.

Here is the text from our SI's.

16.1 Points will be awarded for race standings on the basis of 1 for first, 2 for second, 3 for third, etc.

16.2 A yacht which starts a race but does not finish (DNF) will be assigned points equal to the number of yachts starting the race in her fleet.

16.3 A yacht which is disqualified (DSQ) will be assigned points equal to one more than the number of yachts starting the race in her fleet.

16.4 Fleet standings for each series within each of the fleets will be established by the average points of yacht-owner or yacht-skipper in all races in which that yacht received points.

16.5 A yacht may elect to "throw out" or not count her points from up to three (3) races in the series by notifying the Handicap Committee in writing no later than seven (7) days after the last race of the series. As a condition of exercising the rule, the yacht must have received points in seven (7) races in the series, and may not throw out any score which will result in counting points from less than six (6) races in a series.

16.6 Fleet standing for the season within each of the fleets will be established by averaging the average finish points of a yacht-owner or yacht-skipper in each of the two series. To qualify for the season, a yacht-owner or yacht-skipper must race both series in the same fleet.

16.7 Ties shall be broken by the result of the races sailed against each other by determining which yacht beat the other the most number of times. If a tie still remains, the winner of the last race between the yachts will win.

Patrick

···

________________________________

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Mon 3/20/2006 4:44 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Hi Patrick,

How can I configure a DNC for a (long) series to not count. We don't

penalize or reward a DNC, simply they don't get a score. DNC's should
not be counted as races for that competitor either.<<

Set it up as a fixed points of 0 and tick the cannot be discarded box.

My second question: Can I configure individual throwouts? Ie If a

boat races 5 of the 9 races, they still qualify but would not have any
throwouts. A boat racing all 9 would get 3 throwouts. The current
system seems to be series based, not competitor based.<<

Not that I can think of; have not come across it before - how does it work -
the boat with 5 races to count seems to have an anutomatic advantage over
the boat with 6 races to count etc...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

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4

Hi Patrick,

I can't justify doing anything specific for you because your system is
unique. However in the scoring system you can choose to average
non-discarded points to get overall series points which will get you close.
Also for the averaged (+ averaged again) series you can import final
positions or points from a series and use averaging again; see import menu.
i.e. set up a sort of meta-series; many users do this.

NB: there is nothing in those SIs about DNC....

Just out of interest, why don't you just use the stadnard Appendix A long
series method; what advantages does your your club perceive in your
approach...? Why apply in writing for discards for example...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Gudat, Patrick
Sent: 20 March 2006 15:35
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: FW: [sailwave] Noob questions

Colin,

Thanks for your quick reply.

We do have a different seasonal scoring system in use than I have found
anywhere.

Here is the text from our SI's.

16.1 Points will be awarded for race standings on the basis of 1 for first,
2 for second, 3 for third, etc.

16.2 A yacht which starts a race but does not finish (DNF) will be assigned
points equal to the number of yachts starting the race in her fleet.

16.3 A yacht which is disqualified (DSQ) will be assigned points equal to
one more than the number of yachts starting the race in her fleet.

16.4 Fleet standings for each series within each of the fleets will be
established by the average points of yacht-owner or yacht-skipper in all
races in which that yacht received points.

16.5 A yacht may elect to "throw out" or not count her points from up to
three (3) races in the series by notifying the Handicap Committee in writing
no later than seven (7) days after the last race of the series. As a
condition of exercising the rule, the yacht must have received points in
seven (7) races in the series, and may not throw out any score which will
result in counting points from less than six (6) races in a series.

16.6 Fleet standing for the season within each of the fleets will be
established by averaging the average finish points of a yacht-owner or
yacht-skipper in each of the two series. To qualify for the season, a
yacht-owner or yacht-skipper must race both series in the same fleet.

16.7 Ties shall be broken by the result of the races sailed against each
other by determining which yacht beat the other the most number of times. If
a tie still remains, the winner of the last race between the yachts will
win.

Patrick

________________________________

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Mon 3/20/2006 4:44 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Hi Patrick,

How can I configure a DNC for a (long) series to not count. We don't

penalize or reward a DNC, simply they don't get a score. DNC's should
not be counted as races for that competitor either.<<

Set it up as a fixed points of 0 and tick the cannot be discarded box.

My second question: Can I configure individual throwouts? Ie If a

boat races 5 of the 9 races, they still qualify but would not have any
throwouts. A boat racing all 9 would get 3 throwouts. The current
system seems to be series based, not competitor based.<<

Not that I can think of; have not come across it before - how does it work -
the boat with 5 races to count seems to have an anutomatic advantage over
the boat with 6 races to count etc...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

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5

Colin,

I understand you not being able to re-program. Not a problem.

DNC's are irrelivant as you only count the races a sailor sails, not the ones they do not. Our approach offers sailor the opportunity to miss races for vacations, work, etc without being penalized. There is still a minimum (50%) number of races to complete. The average results also take out the difference in each sailors number of races. The throwouts in writing is being updated but is there as different throwouts could offer differing final results if tie-breakers come into play. (some history in the method)

This scoring method is not perfect. Which is why for another fleet, we have an even more complex system. For each race, you get a numerator (finishing place + 1) and a demoninator (total boats sailing that race). Your final score is the sum of the numerators divided by the sum of the demoninators for the series. Throwouts are 1 for every 7 races a boat sails. The highest fraction then is 1st.

This method fixes an issue the 1st method has while still addressing "DNC's are not a penalty". It makes a 1/5 score not as good as a 1/10 and conversly a 5/5 not as bad as a 10/10.

Overall our goal is to provide a fair scoring solution not penalizing an occasional missed race.

Patrick

···

________________________________

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Mon 3/20/2006 10:28 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Hi Patrick,

I can't justify doing anything specific for you because your system is
unique. However in the scoring system you can choose to average
non-discarded points to get overall series points which will get you close.
Also for the averaged (+ averaged again) series you can import final
positions or points from a series and use averaging again; see import menu.
i.e. set up a sort of meta-series; many users do this.

NB: there is nothing in those SIs about DNC....

Just out of interest, why don't you just use the stadnard Appendix A long
series method; what advantages does your your club perceive in your
approach...? Why apply in writing for discards for example...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Gudat, Patrick
Sent: 20 March 2006 15:35
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: FW: [sailwave] Noob questions

Colin,

Thanks for your quick reply.

We do have a different seasonal scoring system in use than I have found
anywhere.

Here is the text from our SI's.

16.1 Points will be awarded for race standings on the basis of 1 for first,
2 for second, 3 for third, etc.

16.2 A yacht which starts a race but does not finish (DNF) will be assigned
points equal to the number of yachts starting the race in her fleet.

16.3 A yacht which is disqualified (DSQ) will be assigned points equal to
one more than the number of yachts starting the race in her fleet.

16.4 Fleet standings for each series within each of the fleets will be
established by the average points of yacht-owner or yacht-skipper in all
races in which that yacht received points.

16.5 A yacht may elect to "throw out" or not count her points from up to
three (3) races in the series by notifying the Handicap Committee in writing
no later than seven (7) days after the last race of the series. As a
condition of exercising the rule, the yacht must have received points in
seven (7) races in the series, and may not throw out any score which will
result in counting points from less than six (6) races in a series.

16.6 Fleet standing for the season within each of the fleets will be
established by averaging the average finish points of a yacht-owner or
yacht-skipper in each of the two series. To qualify for the season, a
yacht-owner or yacht-skipper must race both series in the same fleet.

16.7 Ties shall be broken by the result of the races sailed against each
other by determining which yacht beat the other the most number of times. If
a tie still remains, the winner of the last race between the yachts will
win.

Patrick

________________________________

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Mon 3/20/2006 4:44 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Hi Patrick,

How can I configure a DNC for a (long) series to not count. We don't

penalize or reward a DNC, simply they don't get a score. DNC's should
not be counted as races for that competitor either.<<

Set it up as a fixed points of 0 and tick the cannot be discarded box.

My second question: Can I configure individual throwouts? Ie If a

boat races 5 of the 9 races, they still qualify but would not have any
throwouts. A boat racing all 9 would get 3 throwouts. The current
system seems to be series based, not competitor based.<<

Not that I can think of; have not come across it before - how does it work -
the boat with 5 races to count seems to have an anutomatic advantage over
the boat with 6 races to count etc...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.5/284 - Release Date: 17/03/2006

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!-
http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
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On-Line Sailwave help...
http://sailwave.com/help/HTML/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
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Boating sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Boating+sailing&w1=Boating+sailing&w2=S
ailing&w3=Boating&c=3&s=47&.sig=AJ1MU046R4ys2uZlDjAdtQ> Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Sailing&w1=Boating+sailing&w2=Sailing&w
3=Boating&c=3&s=47&.sig=1HQW16yAAPjllnOQiXMAUw> Boating
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the web.

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________________________________

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Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
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6

Hi Patrick,

OK, not sure I fully understand since a std long series can allow entrants
to miss large numbers of races by discarding about half of them say (our
club uses races/2+1). NB: In a std ISAF long series DNC is based on the
number of entrants to the race ob the day rather than the number in the
series, so even if you have to carry DNS, it's not a drama...

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Gudat, Patrick [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Gudat,
Patrick
Sent: 20 March 2006 17:09
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Colin,

I understand you not being able to re-program. Not a problem.

DNC's are irrelivant as you only count the races a sailor sails, not the
ones they do not. Our approach offers sailor the opportunity to miss races
for vacations, work, etc without being penalized. There is still a minimum
(50%) number of races to complete. The average results also take out the
difference in each sailors number of races. The throwouts in writing is
being updated but is there as different throwouts could offer differing
final results if tie-breakers come into play. (some history in the method)

This scoring method is not perfect. Which is why for another fleet, we have
an even more complex system. For each race, you get a numerator (finishing
place + 1) and a demoninator (total boats sailing that race). Your final
score is the sum of the numerators divided by the sum of the demoninators
for the series. Throwouts are 1 for every 7 races a boat sails. The
highest fraction then is 1st.

This method fixes an issue the 1st method has while still addressing "DNC's
are not a penalty". It makes a 1/5 score not as good as a 1/10 and
conversly a 5/5 not as bad as a 10/10.

Overall our goal is to provide a fair scoring solution not penalizing an
occasional missed race.

Patrick

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Mon 3/20/2006 10:28 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Hi Patrick,

I can't justify doing anything specific for you because your system is
unique. However in the scoring system you can choose to average
non-discarded points to get overall series points which will get you close.
Also for the averaged (+ averaged again) series you can import final
positions or points from a series and use averaging again; see import menu.
i.e. set up a sort of meta-series; many users do this.

NB: there is nothing in those SIs about DNC....

Just out of interest, why don't you just use the stadnard Appendix A long
series method; what advantages does your your club perceive in your
approach...? Why apply in writing for discards for example...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Gudat, Patrick
Sent: 20 March 2006 15:35
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: FW: [sailwave] Noob questions

Colin,

Thanks for your quick reply.

We do have a different seasonal scoring system in use than I have found
anywhere.

Here is the text from our SI's.

16.1 Points will be awarded for race standings on the basis of 1 for first,
2 for second, 3 for third, etc.

16.2 A yacht which starts a race but does not finish (DNF) will be assigned
points equal to the number of yachts starting the race in her fleet.

16.3 A yacht which is disqualified (DSQ) will be assigned points equal to
one more than the number of yachts starting the race in her fleet.

16.4 Fleet standings for each series within each of the fleets will be
established by the average points of yacht-owner or yacht-skipper in all
races in which that yacht received points.

16.5 A yacht may elect to "throw out" or not count her points from up to
three (3) races in the series by notifying the Handicap Committee in writing
no later than seven (7) days after the last race of the series. As a
condition of exercising the rule, the yacht must have received points in
seven (7) races in the series, and may not throw out any score which will
result in counting points from less than six (6) races in a series.

16.6 Fleet standing for the season within each of the fleets will be
established by averaging the average finish points of a yacht-owner or
yacht-skipper in each of the two series. To qualify for the season, a
yacht-owner or yacht-skipper must race both series in the same fleet.

16.7 Ties shall be broken by the result of the races sailed against each
other by determining which yacht beat the other the most number of times. If
a tie still remains, the winner of the last race between the yachts will
win.

Patrick

________________________________

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Mon 3/20/2006 4:44 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Hi Patrick,

How can I configure a DNC for a (long) series to not count. We don't

penalize or reward a DNC, simply they don't get a score. DNC's should
not be counted as races for that competitor either.<<

Set it up as a fixed points of 0 and tick the cannot be discarded box.

My second question: Can I configure individual throwouts? Ie If a

boat races 5 of the 9 races, they still qualify but would not have any
throwouts. A boat racing all 9 would get 3 throwouts. The current
system seems to be series based, not competitor based.<<

Not that I can think of; have not come across it before - how does it work -
the boat with 5 races to count seems to have an anutomatic advantage over
the boat with 6 races to count etc...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.5/284 - Release Date: 17/03/2006

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!-
http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

On-Line Sailwave help...
http://sailwave.com/help/HTML/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com

SPONSORED LINKS
Boating sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Boating+sailing&w1=Boating+sailing&w2=S
ailing&w3=Boating&c=3&s=47&.sig=AJ1MU046R4ys2uZlDjAdtQ> Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Sailing&w1=Boating+sailing&w2=Sailing&w
3=Boating&c=3&s=47&.sig=1HQW16yAAPjllnOQiXMAUw> Boating
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3=Boating&c=3&s=47&.sig=bzpnMO-kE3ubzvL0EqcW5w>

________________________________

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* Visit your group "sailwave <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave>
" on
the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
         sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

________________________________

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!-
http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

On-Line Sailwave help...
http://sailwave.com/help/HTML/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

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7

Colin,

So in the formula you use and ISAF's for that matter, missing a race with only 5 entrants is better than sailing and getting 10th of 10 sailors. This doesn't make since for me. Our formula's only count what you do race and allow you throw outs if you've raced more than 50% of the scheduled races (50% of the sailed races are needed to qualify).

I guess I'll have to program something myself. Excel is getting too difficult to use for the people who enter results.

Patrick

···

________________________________

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Mon 3/20/2006 12:21 PM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Hi Patrick,

OK, not sure I fully understand since a std long series can allow entrants
to miss large numbers of races by discarding about half of them say (our
club uses races/2+1). NB: In a std ISAF long series DNC is based on the
number of entrants to the race ob the day rather than the number in the
series, so even if you have to carry DNS, it's not a drama...

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com
  
-----Original Message-----
From: Gudat, Patrick [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Gudat,
Patrick
Sent: 20 March 2006 17:09
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Colin,

I understand you not being able to re-program. Not a problem.

DNC's are irrelivant as you only count the races a sailor sails, not the
ones they do not. Our approach offers sailor the opportunity to miss races
for vacations, work, etc without being penalized. There is still a minimum
(50%) number of races to complete. The average results also take out the
difference in each sailors number of races. The throwouts in writing is
being updated but is there as different throwouts could offer differing
final results if tie-breakers come into play. (some history in the method)

This scoring method is not perfect. Which is why for another fleet, we have
an even more complex system. For each race, you get a numerator (finishing
place + 1) and a demoninator (total boats sailing that race). Your final
score is the sum of the numerators divided by the sum of the demoninators
for the series. Throwouts are 1 for every 7 races a boat sails. The
highest fraction then is 1st.

This method fixes an issue the 1st method has while still addressing "DNC's
are not a penalty". It makes a 1/5 score not as good as a 1/10 and
conversly a 5/5 not as bad as a 10/10.

Overall our goal is to provide a fair scoring solution not penalizing an
occasional missed race.

Patrick

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Mon 3/20/2006 10:28 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Hi Patrick,

I can't justify doing anything specific for you because your system is
unique. However in the scoring system you can choose to average
non-discarded points to get overall series points which will get you close.
Also for the averaged (+ averaged again) series you can import final
positions or points from a series and use averaging again; see import menu.
i.e. set up a sort of meta-series; many users do this.

NB: there is nothing in those SIs about DNC....

Just out of interest, why don't you just use the stadnard Appendix A long
series method; what advantages does your your club perceive in your
approach...? Why apply in writing for discards for example...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Gudat, Patrick
Sent: 20 March 2006 15:35
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: FW: [sailwave] Noob questions

Colin,

Thanks for your quick reply.

We do have a different seasonal scoring system in use than I have found
anywhere.

Here is the text from our SI's.

16.1 Points will be awarded for race standings on the basis of 1 for first,
2 for second, 3 for third, etc.

16.2 A yacht which starts a race but does not finish (DNF) will be assigned
points equal to the number of yachts starting the race in her fleet.

16.3 A yacht which is disqualified (DSQ) will be assigned points equal to
one more than the number of yachts starting the race in her fleet.

16.4 Fleet standings for each series within each of the fleets will be
established by the average points of yacht-owner or yacht-skipper in all
races in which that yacht received points.

16.5 A yacht may elect to "throw out" or not count her points from up to
three (3) races in the series by notifying the Handicap Committee in writing
no later than seven (7) days after the last race of the series. As a
condition of exercising the rule, the yacht must have received points in
seven (7) races in the series, and may not throw out any score which will
result in counting points from less than six (6) races in a series.

16.6 Fleet standing for the season within each of the fleets will be
established by averaging the average finish points of a yacht-owner or
yacht-skipper in each of the two series. To qualify for the season, a
yacht-owner or yacht-skipper must race both series in the same fleet.

16.7 Ties shall be broken by the result of the races sailed against each
other by determining which yacht beat the other the most number of times. If
a tie still remains, the winner of the last race between the yachts will
win.

Patrick

________________________________

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Mon 3/20/2006 4:44 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Hi Patrick,

How can I configure a DNC for a (long) series to not count. We don't

penalize or reward a DNC, simply they don't get a score. DNC's should
not be counted as races for that competitor either.<<

Set it up as a fixed points of 0 and tick the cannot be discarded box.

My second question: Can I configure individual throwouts? Ie If a

boat races 5 of the 9 races, they still qualify but would not have any
throwouts. A boat racing all 9 would get 3 throwouts. The current
system seems to be series based, not competitor based.<<

Not that I can think of; have not come across it before - how does it work -
the boat with 5 races to count seems to have an anutomatic advantage over
the boat with 6 races to count etc...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

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8

Sorry Patrick, blonde moment there - DNF etc are based on #boats races, DNC
is still on series.

But, to save youself a lot of work - use the qualification profile thingy in
Sailwave - that allows you to say that folk don't qualify for a result
unless they sail N races. And given that You have to pick some minimum
value of N to be a fair series, it would seem to fit what you do...

Can you point at one of your series published on the internet and scored
using your SIs - I am convinced you'll get the same results by using the
standard rules and a qualififcation profile...

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Gudat, Patrick [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Gudat,
Patrick
Sent: 20 March 2006 18:40
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Colin,

So in the formula you use and ISAF's for that matter, missing a race with
only 5 entrants is better than sailing and getting 10th of 10 sailors. This
doesn't make since for me. Our formula's only count what you do race and
allow you throw outs if you've raced more than 50% of the scheduled races
(50% of the sailed races are needed to qualify).

I guess I'll have to program something myself. Excel is getting too
difficult to use for the people who enter results.

Patrick

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Mon 3/20/2006 12:21 PM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Hi Patrick,

OK, not sure I fully understand since a std long series can allow entrants
to miss large numbers of races by discarding about half of them say (our
club uses races/2+1). NB: In a std ISAF long series DNC is based on the
number of entrants to the race ob the day rather than the number in the
series, so even if you have to carry DNS, it's not a drama...

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com
  
-----Original Message-----
From: Gudat, Patrick [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Gudat,
Patrick
Sent: 20 March 2006 17:09
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Colin,

I understand you not being able to re-program. Not a problem.

DNC's are irrelivant as you only count the races a sailor sails, not the
ones they do not. Our approach offers sailor the opportunity to miss races
for vacations, work, etc without being penalized. There is still a minimum
(50%) number of races to complete. The average results also take out the
difference in each sailors number of races. The throwouts in writing is
being updated but is there as different throwouts could offer differing
final results if tie-breakers come into play. (some history in the method)

This scoring method is not perfect. Which is why for another fleet, we have
an even more complex system. For each race, you get a numerator (finishing
place + 1) and a demoninator (total boats sailing that race). Your final
score is the sum of the numerators divided by the sum of the demoninators
for the series. Throwouts are 1 for every 7 races a boat sails. The
highest fraction then is 1st.

This method fixes an issue the 1st method has while still addressing "DNC's
are not a penalty". It makes a 1/5 score not as good as a 1/10 and
conversly a 5/5 not as bad as a 10/10.

Overall our goal is to provide a fair scoring solution not penalizing an
occasional missed race.

Patrick

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Mon 3/20/2006 10:28 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Hi Patrick,

I can't justify doing anything specific for you because your system is
unique. However in the scoring system you can choose to average
non-discarded points to get overall series points which will get you close.
Also for the averaged (+ averaged again) series you can import final
positions or points from a series and use averaging again; see import menu.
i.e. set up a sort of meta-series; many users do this.

NB: there is nothing in those SIs about DNC....

Just out of interest, why don't you just use the stadnard Appendix A long
series method; what advantages does your your club perceive in your
approach...? Why apply in writing for discards for example...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Gudat, Patrick
Sent: 20 March 2006 15:35
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: FW: [sailwave] Noob questions

Colin,

Thanks for your quick reply.

We do have a different seasonal scoring system in use than I have found
anywhere.

Here is the text from our SI's.

16.1 Points will be awarded for race standings on the basis of 1 for first,
2 for second, 3 for third, etc.

16.2 A yacht which starts a race but does not finish (DNF) will be assigned
points equal to the number of yachts starting the race in her fleet.

16.3 A yacht which is disqualified (DSQ) will be assigned points equal to
one more than the number of yachts starting the race in her fleet.

16.4 Fleet standings for each series within each of the fleets will be
established by the average points of yacht-owner or yacht-skipper in all
races in which that yacht received points.

16.5 A yacht may elect to "throw out" or not count her points from up to
three (3) races in the series by notifying the Handicap Committee in writing
no later than seven (7) days after the last race of the series. As a
condition of exercising the rule, the yacht must have received points in
seven (7) races in the series, and may not throw out any score which will
result in counting points from less than six (6) races in a series.

16.6 Fleet standing for the season within each of the fleets will be
established by averaging the average finish points of a yacht-owner or
yacht-skipper in each of the two series. To qualify for the season, a
yacht-owner or yacht-skipper must race both series in the same fleet.

16.7 Ties shall be broken by the result of the races sailed against each
other by determining which yacht beat the other the most number of times. If
a tie still remains, the winner of the last race between the yachts will
win.

Patrick

________________________________

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Mon 3/20/2006 4:44 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Hi Patrick,

How can I configure a DNC for a (long) series to not count. We don't

penalize or reward a DNC, simply they don't get a score. DNC's should
not be counted as races for that competitor either.<<

Set it up as a fixed points of 0 and tick the cannot be discarded box.

My second question: Can I configure individual throwouts? Ie If a

boat races 5 of the 9 races, they still qualify but would not have any
throwouts. A boat racing all 9 would get 3 throwouts. The current
system seems to be series based, not competitor based.<<

Not that I can think of; have not come across it before - how does it work -
the boat with 5 races to count seems to have an anutomatic advantage over
the boat with 6 races to count etc...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

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9

Hi Patrick

I had similar problems when taking over as club results officer.
We worked on the principle of 'races to qualify' & the diehards were adamant that the 'new' discard
system was not for them.
As Colin has mentioned, I worked on a large number of discards to cover the problems which you
mentioned & proved that the result was the same. The bonus was that by using discards and a VERY
high value for DNC, I was able to use Sailwave. This was obviously using the Low Points System

The other issue you mentioned is recognising the difference between 1st in 10 boats & 1st in 20
boats.
If you use a Bonus/High point system, you will have a solution.
I have used this for annual national ranking systems where a boat's score in a race is the number of
boats beat + 1.
So 1st from 10 gains 10 points & 1st from 20 gains 20 points.

By having say 5 discards from a 12 race series & a high points system, your members will
- automatically count their best 7 races
- DNC is not an issue as the boat simply scores no points
- performances in bigger turnouts will be recognised
- not need to decide which races to count (save you lots of admin)

and for you, all you need to do is click the score button in Sailwave ;-))

The problem is persuading the diehards to join the 21st century.
My solution was that for the first series, I produced results using both methods & despite lots of
shaking heads, the Sailing Committee could not fault the new system

Good Luck!!

Regards
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Gudat, Patrick [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Gudat, Patrick
Sent: 20 March 2006 17:09
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Colin,

I understand you not being able to re-program. Not a problem.

DNC's are irrelivant as you only count the races a sailor sails, not the ones they do not. Our
approach offers sailor the opportunity to miss races for vacations, work, etc without being
penalized. There is still a minimum (50%) number of races to complete. The average results also
take out the difference in each sailors number of races. The throwouts in writing is being updated
but is there as different throwouts could offer differing final results if tie-breakers come into
play. (some history in the method)

This scoring method is not perfect. Which is why for another fleet, we have an even more complex
system. For each race, you get a numerator (finishing place + 1) and a demoninator (total boats
sailing that race). Your final score is the sum of the numerators divided by the sum of the
demoninators for the series. Throwouts are 1 for every 7 races a boat sails. The highest fraction
then is 1st.

This method fixes an issue the 1st method has while still addressing "DNC's are not a penalty". It
makes a 1/5 score not as good as a 1/10 and conversly a 5/5 not as bad as a 10/10.

Overall our goal is to provide a fair scoring solution not penalizing an occasional missed race.

Patrick

________________________________

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Mon 3/20/2006 10:28 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Hi Patrick,

I can't justify doing anything specific for you because your system is
unique. However in the scoring system you can choose to average
non-discarded points to get overall series points which will get you close.
Also for the averaged (+ averaged again) series you can import final
positions or points from a series and use averaging again; see import menu.
i.e. set up a sort of meta-series; many users do this.

NB: there is nothing in those SIs about DNC....

Just out of interest, why don't you just use the stadnard Appendix A long
series method; what advantages does your your club perceive in your
approach...? Why apply in writing for discards for example...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Gudat, Patrick
Sent: 20 March 2006 15:35
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: FW: [sailwave] Noob questions

Colin,

Thanks for your quick reply.

We do have a different seasonal scoring system in use than I have found
anywhere.

Here is the text from our SI's.

16.1 Points will be awarded for race standings on the basis of 1 for first,
2 for second, 3 for third, etc.

16.2 A yacht which starts a race but does not finish (DNF) will be assigned
points equal to the number of yachts starting the race in her fleet.

16.3 A yacht which is disqualified (DSQ) will be assigned points equal to
one more than the number of yachts starting the race in her fleet.

16.4 Fleet standings for each series within each of the fleets will be
established by the average points of yacht-owner or yacht-skipper in all
races in which that yacht received points.

16.5 A yacht may elect to "throw out" or not count her points from up to
three (3) races in the series by notifying the Handicap Committee in writing
no later than seven (7) days after the last race of the series. As a
condition of exercising the rule, the yacht must have received points in
seven (7) races in the series, and may not throw out any score which will
result in counting points from less than six (6) races in a series.

16.6 Fleet standing for the season within each of the fleets will be
established by averaging the average finish points of a yacht-owner or
yacht-skipper in each of the two series. To qualify for the season, a
yacht-owner or yacht-skipper must race both series in the same fleet.

16.7 Ties shall be broken by the result of the races sailed against each
other by determining which yacht beat the other the most number of times. If
a tie still remains, the winner of the last race between the yachts will
win.

Patrick

________________________________

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Mon 3/20/2006 4:44 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Hi Patrick,

How can I configure a DNC for a (long) series to not count. We don't

penalize or reward a DNC, simply they don't get a score. DNC's should
not be counted as races for that competitor either.<<

Set it up as a fixed points of 0 and tick the cannot be discarded box.

My second question: Can I configure individual throwouts? Ie If a

boat races 5 of the 9 races, they still qualify but would not have any
throwouts. A boat racing all 9 would get 3 throwouts. The current
system seems to be series based, not competitor based.<<

Not that I can think of; have not come across it before - how does it work -
the boat with 5 races to count seems to have an anutomatic advantage over
the boat with 6 races to count etc...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

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10

I just posted this for you.

http://www.capri22.net/Capri22_Results_2005.htm

The qualification ruleset doesn't' work for me as it still does races sailed overall, not per skipper. check out our results from last year.

Patrick

···

________________________________

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Mon 3/20/2006 12:58 PM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Sorry Patrick, blonde moment there - DNF etc are based on #boats races, DNC
is still on series.

But, to save youself a lot of work - use the qualification profile thingy in
Sailwave - that allows you to say that folk don't qualify for a result
unless they sail N races. And given that You have to pick some minimum
value of N to be a fair series, it would seem to fit what you do...

Can you point at one of your series published on the internet and scored
using your SIs - I am convinced you'll get the same results by using the
standard rules and a qualififcation profile...

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gudat, Patrick [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Gudat,
Patrick
Sent: 20 March 2006 18:40
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Colin,

So in the formula you use and ISAF's for that matter, missing a race with
only 5 entrants is better than sailing and getting 10th of 10 sailors. This
doesn't make since for me. Our formula's only count what you do race and
allow you throw outs if you've raced more than 50% of the scheduled races
(50% of the sailed races are needed to qualify).

I guess I'll have to program something myself. Excel is getting too
difficult to use for the people who enter results.

Patrick

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Mon 3/20/2006 12:21 PM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Hi Patrick,

OK, not sure I fully understand since a std long series can allow entrants
to miss large numbers of races by discarding about half of them say (our
club uses races/2+1). NB: In a std ISAF long series DNC is based on the
number of entrants to the race ob the day rather than the number in the
series, so even if you have to carry DNS, it's not a drama...

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gudat, Patrick [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Gudat,
Patrick
Sent: 20 March 2006 17:09
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Colin,

I understand you not being able to re-program. Not a problem.

DNC's are irrelivant as you only count the races a sailor sails, not the
ones they do not. Our approach offers sailor the opportunity to miss races
for vacations, work, etc without being penalized. There is still a minimum
(50%) number of races to complete. The average results also take out the
difference in each sailors number of races. The throwouts in writing is
being updated but is there as different throwouts could offer differing
final results if tie-breakers come into play. (some history in the method)

This scoring method is not perfect. Which is why for another fleet, we have
an even more complex system. For each race, you get a numerator (finishing
place + 1) and a demoninator (total boats sailing that race). Your final
score is the sum of the numerators divided by the sum of the demoninators
for the series. Throwouts are 1 for every 7 races a boat sails. The
highest fraction then is 1st.

This method fixes an issue the 1st method has while still addressing "DNC's
are not a penalty". It makes a 1/5 score not as good as a 1/10 and
conversly a 5/5 not as bad as a 10/10.

Overall our goal is to provide a fair scoring solution not penalizing an
occasional missed race.

Patrick

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Mon 3/20/2006 10:28 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Hi Patrick,

I can't justify doing anything specific for you because your system is
unique. However in the scoring system you can choose to average
non-discarded points to get overall series points which will get you close.
Also for the averaged (+ averaged again) series you can import final
positions or points from a series and use averaging again; see import menu.
i.e. set up a sort of meta-series; many users do this.

NB: there is nothing in those SIs about DNC....

Just out of interest, why don't you just use the stadnard Appendix A long
series method; what advantages does your your club perceive in your
approach...? Why apply in writing for discards for example...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Gudat, Patrick
Sent: 20 March 2006 15:35
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: FW: [sailwave] Noob questions

Colin,

Thanks for your quick reply.

We do have a different seasonal scoring system in use than I have found
anywhere.

Here is the text from our SI's.

16.1 Points will be awarded for race standings on the basis of 1 for first,
2 for second, 3 for third, etc.

16.2 A yacht which starts a race but does not finish (DNF) will be assigned
points equal to the number of yachts starting the race in her fleet.

16.3 A yacht which is disqualified (DSQ) will be assigned points equal to
one more than the number of yachts starting the race in her fleet.

16.4 Fleet standings for each series within each of the fleets will be
established by the average points of yacht-owner or yacht-skipper in all
races in which that yacht received points.

16.5 A yacht may elect to "throw out" or not count her points from up to
three (3) races in the series by notifying the Handicap Committee in writing
no later than seven (7) days after the last race of the series. As a
condition of exercising the rule, the yacht must have received points in
seven (7) races in the series, and may not throw out any score which will
result in counting points from less than six (6) races in a series.

16.6 Fleet standing for the season within each of the fleets will be
established by averaging the average finish points of a yacht-owner or
yacht-skipper in each of the two series. To qualify for the season, a
yacht-owner or yacht-skipper must race both series in the same fleet.

16.7 Ties shall be broken by the result of the races sailed against each
other by determining which yacht beat the other the most number of times. If
a tie still remains, the winner of the last race between the yachts will
win.

Patrick

________________________________

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Mon 3/20/2006 4:44 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Noob questions

Hi Patrick,

How can I configure a DNC for a (long) series to not count. We don't

penalize or reward a DNC, simply they don't get a score. DNC's should
not be counted as races for that competitor either.<<

Set it up as a fixed points of 0 and tick the cannot be discarded box.

My second question: Can I configure individual throwouts? Ie If a

boat races 5 of the 9 races, they still qualify but would not have any
throwouts. A boat racing all 9 would get 3 throwouts. The current
system seems to be series based, not competitor based.<<

Not that I can think of; have not come across it before - how does it work -
the boat with 5 races to count seems to have an anutomatic advantage over
the boat with 6 races to count etc...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

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