An orcs boat can never be a finisher, it did not start and under a5 the race committee can score it as such. This will always take precedence.
Mike b
···
Sent from my iPad mike butterfield
This is a common mistake make by scorers and other race committee officials.
Under the RRS there is a definition of "finish" and under that definition you can finish without officially starting. That means that you might have more official "finishers" than official "starters." The recommendation is for the RC to record the time of every boat that "finishes" even if she might end up being scored something else. If an OCS boat does not finish then I would score her OCS instead of DNF as that occurred first in time. However, there is nowhere in the rulebook where that is stated as a hard and fast rule (which may make it an oversight worth fixing in 2017).
For scoring, one sometimes wants to use the number of boats that attempted to start and sail the course. I believe under Sailwave that would be official starters plus OCS (or, alternatively, non-DNC minus DNS). Or, you might want to include folks who simply got themselves off the beach and into the starting area but for whatever reason didn't start. That would be official starters plus OCS plus DNS (or simply non-DNC). But, the biggest mistake by scorers is to score boats that didn't start as DNS when they didn't come out to the starting area (and never left the dock or the beach). So, I would be very careful if you use DNS in your scoring formulas.
I tend to agree with the sentiment that DNF should be the number of attempters (meaning "starters" in common language but "starers plus OCS" using the official language of the RRS) plus one. A few classes have something like that in their standard SIs. However, for consistency I would lean toward sticking to the default under the rulebook (entries plus one for a series that is a regatta) as that is pretty much just as fair 95%+ of the time.
Art
···
On 11/19/2012 11:56 PM, Patricia Butterfield wrote:
An orcs boat can never be a finisher, it did not start and under a5 the race committee can score it as such. This will always take precedence.
Mike b
Sent from my iPad mike butterfield
------------------------------------
-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!- On-Line Sailwave help...http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Townsend's Sailwave User Guide is available from http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~ Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG please send blank email to sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
On OCS boat has to be scored as such. Appendix a11 is mandatory for what the codes describe and ocs is one of the mandated codes.
Mike b iu ij iro
···
Sent from my iPad mike butterfield
On 20 Nov 2012, at 23:11, “Art Engel” artengel123@earthlink.net wrote:
This is a common mistake make by scorers and other race committee officials.
Under the RRS there is a definition of “finish” and under that
definition you can finish without officially starting. That means that
you might have more official “finishers” than official “starters.” The
recommendation is for the RC to record the time of every boat that
“finishes” even if she might end up being scored something else. If an
OCS boat does not finish then I would score her OCS instead of DNF as
that occurred first in time. However, there is nowhere in the rulebook
where that is stated as a hard and fast rule (which may make it an
oversight worth fixing in 2017).For scoring, one sometimes wants to use the number of boats that
attempted to start and sail the course. I believe under Sailwave that
would be official starters plus OCS (or, alternatively, non-DNC minus
DNS). Or, you might want to include folks who simply got themselves off
the beach and into the starting area but for whatever reason didn’t
start. That would be official starters plus OCS plus DNS (or simply
non-DNC). But, the biggest mistake by scorers is to score boats that
didn’t start as DNS when they didn’t come out to the starting area (and
never left the dock or the beach). So, I would be very careful if you
use DNS in your scoring formulas.I tend to agree with the sentiment that DNF should be the number of
attempters (meaning “starters” in common language but “starers plus OCS”
using the official language of the RRS) plus one. A few classes have
something like that in their standard SIs. However, for consistency I
would lean toward sticking to the default under the rulebook (entries
plus one for a series that is a regatta) as that is pretty much just as
fair 95%+ of the time.Art
On 11/19/2012 11:56 PM, Patricia Butterfield wrote:
An orcs boat can never be a finisher, it did not start and under a5 the race committee can score it as such. This will always take precedence.
Mike b
Sent from my iPad mike butterfield
-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!- On-Line Sailwave help…http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Townsend’s Sailwave User Guide is available from http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~ Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG please send blank email to sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
Contrary to what some people seem to think, ISAF Appendix A is pretty well thought out and avoids most scoring pitfalls. In a regatta, scores for DNS, DNF and disqualification are all based on the number of entries in the regatta. And in a series longer than a regatta they are based on the number who came to the starting area for the race, i.e. series entries - DNC. There is therefore no ambiguity regarding OCS vs DNF or RET. I therefore commend this scoring method to the world’s race committees!
However, as we have a number of respected race administrators here, I’d like to ask one related question:
If a boat clearly fails to sail the course, infringing rule 28, and then finishes according to the definition (crosses the finish line from the course side), what should the race officer/race committee do? At our club we normally score DNF without a hearing. Reason? Typically our finish line stretches across the course, and is crossed at the end of every lap and maybe when returning to the docking area. So our logic is that the line only becomes a finish line for a boat after the boat has sailed the course. (“clearly fails to sail the course” includes returning to the docking area after sailing fewer laps than required or returning to the docking area on the last lap having been observed to omit one or more marks).
I note that we can’t change in our SIs the definition of finishing, so we really should disqualify the boat in question, by convening a protest committee and having the “DNF” boat attend a hearing. That would be incredibly onerous, especially as the boat in question has probably packed up and gone home!
···
On 20 November 2012 23:05, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net wrote:
This is a common mistake make by scorers and other race committee officials.
Under the RRS there is a definition of “finish” and under that
definition you can finish without officially starting. That means that
you might have more official “finishers” than official “starters.” The
recommendation is for the RC to record the time of every boat that
“finishes” even if she might end up being scored something else. If an
OCS boat does not finish then I would score her OCS instead of DNF as
that occurred first in time. However, there is nowhere in the rulebook
where that is stated as a hard and fast rule (which may make it an
oversight worth fixing in 2017).For scoring, one sometimes wants to use the number of boats that
attempted to start and sail the course. I believe under Sailwave that
would be official starters plus OCS (or, alternatively, non-DNC minus
DNS). Or, you might want to include folks who simply got themselves off
the beach and into the starting area but for whatever reason didn’t
start. That would be official starters plus OCS plus DNS (or simply
non-DNC). But, the biggest mistake by scorers is to score boats that
didn’t start as DNS when they didn’t come out to the starting area (and
never left the dock or the beach). So, I would be very careful if you
use DNS in your scoring formulas.I tend to agree with the sentiment that DNF should be the number of
attempters (meaning “starters” in common language but “starers plus OCS”
using the official language of the RRS) plus one. A few classes have
something like that in their standard SIs. However, for consistency I
would lean toward sticking to the default under the rulebook (entries
plus one for a series that is a regatta) as that is pretty much just as
fair 95%+ of the time.Art
On 11/19/2012 11:56 PM, Patricia Butterfield wrote:
An orcs boat can never be a finisher, it did not start and under a5 the race committee can score it as such. This will always take precedence.
Mike b
Sent from my iPad mike butterfield
-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!- On-Line Sailwave help…http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Townsend’s Sailwave User Guide is available from http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~ Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG please send blank email to sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
One way of circumventing a hearing (if the culprit can be caught before going home), is to get him to admit the transgression and to get him to sign as retiring, scored as RET in the 2013 rules.
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield South Africa
···
On 2012/11/21 11:30, Ian Savell wrote:
Contrary to what some people seem to think, ISAF Appendix A is pretty well thought out and avoids most scoring pitfalls. In a regatta, scores for DNS, DNF and disqualification are all based on the number of entries in the regatta. And in a series longer than a regatta they are based on the number who came to the starting area for the race, i.e. series entries - DNC. There is therefore no ambiguity regarding OCS vs DNF or RET. I therefore commend this scoring method to the world's race committees!
However, as we have a number of respected race administrators here, I'd like to ask one related question:
If a boat clearly fails to sail the course, infringing rule 28, and then finishes according to the definition (crosses the finish line from the course side), what should the race officer/race committee do? At our club we normally score DNF without a hearing. Reason? Typically our finish line stretches across the course, and is crossed at the end of every lap and maybe when returning to the docking area. So our logic is that the line only becomes a finish line for a boat after the boat has sailed the course. ("clearly fails to sail the course" includes returning to the docking area after sailing fewer laps than required or returning to the docking area on the last lap having been observed to omit one or more marks).
I note that we can't change in our SIs the definition of finishing, so we really should disqualify the boat in question, by convening a protest committee and having the "DNF" boat attend a hearing. That would be incredibly onerous, especially as the boat in question has probably packed up and gone home!
On 20 November 2012 23:05, Art Engel <artengel123@earthlink.net > <mailto:artengel123@earthlink.net>> wrote:
This is a common mistake make by scorers and other race committee
officials.Under the RRS there is a definition of "finish" and under that
definition you can finish without officially starting. That means
that
you might have more official "finishers" than official "starters."
The
recommendation is for the RC to record the time of every boat that
"finishes" even if she might end up being scored something else.
If an
OCS boat does not finish then I would score her OCS instead of DNF as
that occurred first in time. However, there is nowhere in the
rulebook
where that is stated as a hard and fast rule (which may make it an
oversight worth fixing in 2017).For scoring, one sometimes wants to use the number of boats that
attempted to start and sail the course. I believe under Sailwave that
would be official starters plus OCS (or, alternatively, non-DNC minus
DNS). Or, you might want to include folks who simply got
themselves off
the beach and into the starting area but for whatever reason didn't
start. That would be official starters plus OCS plus DNS (or simply
non-DNC). But, the biggest mistake by scorers is to score boats that
didn't start as DNS when they didn't come out to the starting area
(and
never left the dock or the beach). So, I would be very careful if you
use DNS in your scoring formulas.I tend to agree with the sentiment that DNF should be the number of
attempters (meaning "starters" in common language but "starers
plus OCS"
using the official language of the RRS) plus one. A few classes have
something like that in their standard SIs. However, for consistency I
would lean toward sticking to the default under the rulebook (entries
plus one for a series that is a regatta) as that is pretty much
just as
fair 95%+ of the time.Art
On 11/19/2012 11:56 PM, Patricia Butterfield wrote:
> An orcs boat can never be a finisher, it did not start and under
a5 the race committee can score it as such. This will always take
precedence.
>
> Mike b
>
> Sent from my iPad mike butterfield
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> -!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!-
http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!- On-Line
Sailwave help...http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Townsend's
Sailwave User Guide is available from
http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~ Convert
to daily digest of emails send blank email to
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:sailwave-digest%40yahoogroups.com> ~ To unsubscribe from
the SUG please send blank email to
sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:sailwave-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
The standard arrangement for race scores in a series longer than a regatta is set out in rule A9.
This uses the number of boats that came to the starting area.
I would argue that any Race Committee should, as a basic safety precaution, have a clear record of the boats that came to the starting area, as they should all be accounted for before the safety obligations of the race committee are completed.
Gordon
···
On 20/11/2012 23:05, Art Engel wrote:
This is a common mistake make by scorers and other race committee officials.
Under the RRS there is a definition of "finish" and under that
definition you can finish without officially starting. That means that
you might have more official "finishers" than official "starters." The
recommendation is for the RC to record the time of every boat that
"finishes" even if she might end up being scored something else. If an
OCS boat does not finish then I would score her OCS instead of DNF as
that occurred first in time. However, there is nowhere in the rulebook
where that is stated as a hard and fast rule (which may make it an
oversight worth fixing in 2017).For scoring, one sometimes wants to use the number of boats that
attempted to start and sail the course. I believe under Sailwave that
would be official starters plus OCS (or, alternatively, non-DNC minus
DNS). Or, you might want to include folks who simply got themselves off
the beach and into the starting area but for whatever reason didn't
start. That would be official starters plus OCS plus DNS (or simply
non-DNC). But, the biggest mistake by scorers is to score boats that
didn't start as DNS when they didn't come out to the starting area (and
never left the dock or the beach). So, I would be very careful if you
use DNS in your scoring formulas.I tend to agree with the sentiment that DNF should be the number of
attempters (meaning "starters" in common language but "starers plus OCS"
using the official language of the RRS) plus one. A few classes have
something like that in their standard SIs. However, for consistency I
would lean toward sticking to the default under the rulebook (entries
plus one for a series that is a regatta) as that is pretty much just as
fair 95%+ of the time.Art
On 11/19/2012 11:56 PM, Patricia Butterfield wrote:
> An orcs boat can never be a finisher, it did not start and under a5 the race committee can score it as such. This will always take precedence.
>
> Mike b
>
> Sent from my iPad mike butterfield
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> -!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!- On-Line Sailwave help...http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Townsend's Sailwave User Guide is available from http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~ Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave-digest%40yahoogroups.com> ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG please send blank email to sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
As Rule 28 is not one of the exceptions mentioned in rule 63.1 Requirement for a hearing the only procedure available for the Race Committee is to record the boat as finishing then lodge a protest (unless social pressure can be brought to bear to encourage a retirement).
Usual scenario:
the RC scores the boat DNF, or worse DSQ. Boat requests redress, on the basis that they have finished.
Case 80 applies. Jury therefore reinstates the boat.
Realising their mistake the RC then protests under rule 28.1. However, the protest time limit has expired. The Jury will then find that the RC's error in not protesting correctly within the time limit is not a good reason to extend the time limit, so they declare the protest invalid.
RC is unhappy, other competitors feel that boat has "got away with it" and everybody complains about the Jury. Jury retires to a quiet corner of the bar and spends the evening building a defensive wall of empty bottles and glasses....
Gordon
···
On 21/11/2012 09:49, Malcolm Osborne wrote:
One way of circumventing a hearing (if the culprit can be caught before going home), is to get him to admit the transgression and to get him to sign as retiring, scored as RET in the 2013 rules.
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield South Africa
On 2012/11/21 11:30, Ian Savell wrote:Contrary to what some people seem to think, ISAF Appendix A is pretty well thought out and avoids most scoring pitfalls. In a regatta, scores for DNS, DNF and disqualification are all based on the number of entries in the regatta. And in a series longer than a regatta they are based on the number who came to the starting area for the race, i.e. series entries - DNC. There is therefore no ambiguity regarding OCS vs DNF or RET. I therefore commend this scoring method to the world's race committees!
However, as we have a number of respected race administrators here, I'd like to ask one related question:
If a boat clearly fails to sail the course, infringing rule 28, and then finishes according to the definition (crosses the finish line from the course side), what should the race officer/race committee do? At our club we normally score DNF without a hearing. Reason? Typically our finish line stretches across the course, and is crossed at the end of every lap and maybe when returning to the docking area. So our logic is that the line only becomes a finish line for a boat after the boat has sailed the course. ("clearly fails to sail the course" includes returning to the docking area after sailing fewer laps than required or returning to the docking area on the last lap having been observed to omit one or more marks).
I note that we can't change in our SIs the definition of finishing, so we really should disqualify the boat in question, by convening a protest committee and having the "DNF" boat attend a hearing. That would be incredibly onerous, especially as the boat in question has probably packed up and gone home!
On 20 November 2012 23:05, Art Engel <artengel123@earthlink.net >> <mailto:artengel123@earthlink.net>> wrote:
This is a common mistake make by scorers and other race committee
officials.Under the RRS there is a definition of "finish" and under that
definition you can finish without officially starting. That means
that
you might have more official "finishers" than official
"starters." The
recommendation is for the RC to record the time of every boat that
"finishes" even if she might end up being scored something else.
If an
OCS boat does not finish then I would score her OCS instead of
DNF as
that occurred first in time. However, there is nowhere in the
rulebook
where that is stated as a hard and fast rule (which may make it an
oversight worth fixing in 2017).For scoring, one sometimes wants to use the number of boats that
attempted to start and sail the course. I believe under Sailwave
that
would be official starters plus OCS (or, alternatively, non-DNC
minus
DNS). Or, you might want to include folks who simply got
themselves off
the beach and into the starting area but for whatever reason didn't
start. That would be official starters plus OCS plus DNS (or simply
non-DNC). But, the biggest mistake by scorers is to score boats that
didn't start as DNS when they didn't come out to the starting
area (and
never left the dock or the beach). So, I would be very careful if
you
use DNS in your scoring formulas.I tend to agree with the sentiment that DNF should be the number of
attempters (meaning "starters" in common language but "starers
plus OCS"
using the official language of the RRS) plus one. A few classes have
something like that in their standard SIs. However, for
consistency I
would lean toward sticking to the default under the rulebook
(entries
plus one for a series that is a regatta) as that is pretty much
just as
fair 95%+ of the time.Art
On 11/19/2012 11:56 PM, Patricia Butterfield wrote:
> An orcs boat can never be a finisher, it did not start and
under a5 the race committee can score it as such. This will
always take precedence.
>
> Mike b
>
> Sent from my iPad mike butterfield
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> -!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!-
http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!- On-Line
Sailwave help...http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Townsend's
Sailwave User Guide is available from
http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~ Convert
to daily digest of emails send blank email to
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:sailwave-digest%40yahoogroups.com> ~ To unsubscribe from
the SUG please send blank email to
sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:sailwave-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
Contained Lancing SC SI #12 “Sailing Correct Course when the Race Committee observes a boat failing to sail the correct course,
the boat so observed will be disqualified without a hearing. This changes RRS63.1 and A5.”
No one’s challenged this approach (yet)…
Mike
Lancing SC
···
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Ian Savell <iansavell@…> wrote:
If a boat clearly fails to sail the course, infringing rule 28, and then
finishes according to the definition (crosses the finish line from the
course side), what should the race officer/race committee do? At our club
we normally score DNF without a hearing. Reason? Typically our finish line
stretches across the course, and is crossed at the end of every lap and
maybe when returning to the docking area. So our logic is that the line
only becomes a finish line for a boat after the boat has sailed the course.
(“clearly fails to sail the course” includes returning to the docking area
after sailing fewer laps than required or returning to the docking area on
the last lap having been observed to omit one or more marks).I note that we can’t change in our SIs the definition of finishing, so we
really should disqualify the boat in question, by convening a protest
committee and having the “DNF” boat attend a hearing. That would be
incredibly onerous, especially as the boat in question has probably packed
up and gone home!
Been there, done that, got the T shirt!
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield South Africa
···
On 2012/11/21 12:25, Gordon Davies wrote:
As Rule 28 is not one of the exceptions mentioned in rule 63.1 Requirement for a hearing the only procedure available for the Race Committee is to record the boat as finishing then lodge a protest (unless social pressure can be brought to bear to encourage a retirement).
Usual scenario:
the RC scores the boat DNF, or worse DSQ. Boat requests redress, on the basis that they have finished.
Case 80 applies. Jury therefore reinstates the boat.
Realising their mistake the RC then protests under rule 28.1. However, the protest time limit has expired. The Jury will then find that the RC's error in not protesting correctly within the time limit is not a good reason to extend the time limit, so they declare the protest invalid.
RC is unhappy, other competitors feel that boat has "got away with it" and everybody complains about the Jury. Jury retires to a quiet corner of the bar and spends the evening building a defensive wall of empty bottles and glasses....
Gordon
On 21/11/2012 09:49, Malcolm Osborne wrote:
One way of circumventing a hearing (if the culprit can be caught before going home), is to get him to admit the transgression and to get him to sign as retiring, scored as RET in the 2013 rules.
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield South Africa
On 2012/11/21 11:30, Ian Savell wrote:Contrary to what some people seem to think, ISAF Appendix A is pretty well thought out and avoids most scoring pitfalls. In a regatta, scores for DNS, DNF and disqualification are all based on the number of entries in the regatta. And in a series longer than a regatta they are based on the number who came to the starting area for the race, i.e. series entries - DNC. There is therefore no ambiguity regarding OCS vs DNF or RET. I therefore commend this scoring method to the world's race committees!
However, as we have a number of respected race administrators here, I'd like to ask one related question:
If a boat clearly fails to sail the course, infringing rule 28, and then finishes according to the definition (crosses the finish line from the course side), what should the race officer/race committee do? At our club we normally score DNF without a hearing. Reason? Typically our finish line stretches across the course, and is crossed at the end of every lap and maybe when returning to the docking area. So our logic is that the line only becomes a finish line for a boat after the boat has sailed the course. ("clearly fails to sail the course" includes returning to the docking area after sailing fewer laps than required or returning to the docking area on the last lap having been observed to omit one or more marks).
I note that we can't change in our SIs the definition of finishing, so we really should disqualify the boat in question, by convening a protest committee and having the "DNF" boat attend a hearing. That would be incredibly onerous, especially as the boat in question has probably packed up and gone home!
On 20 November 2012 23:05, Art Engel <artengel123@earthlink.net >>> <mailto:artengel123@earthlink.net>> wrote:
This is a common mistake make by scorers and other race
committee officials.Under the RRS there is a definition of "finish" and under that
definition you can finish without officially starting. That
means that
you might have more official "finishers" than official
"starters." The
recommendation is for the RC to record the time of every boat that
"finishes" even if she might end up being scored something else.
If an
OCS boat does not finish then I would score her OCS instead of
DNF as
that occurred first in time. However, there is nowhere in the
rulebook
where that is stated as a hard and fast rule (which may make it an
oversight worth fixing in 2017).For scoring, one sometimes wants to use the number of boats that
attempted to start and sail the course. I believe under Sailwave
that
would be official starters plus OCS (or, alternatively, non-DNC
minus
DNS). Or, you might want to include folks who simply got
themselves off
the beach and into the starting area but for whatever reason didn't
start. That would be official starters plus OCS plus DNS (or simply
non-DNC). But, the biggest mistake by scorers is to score boats
that
didn't start as DNS when they didn't come out to the starting
area (and
never left the dock or the beach). So, I would be very careful
if you
use DNS in your scoring formulas.I tend to agree with the sentiment that DNF should be the number of
attempters (meaning "starters" in common language but "starers
plus OCS"
using the official language of the RRS) plus one. A few classes
have
something like that in their standard SIs. However, for
consistency I
would lean toward sticking to the default under the rulebook
(entries
plus one for a series that is a regatta) as that is pretty much
just as
fair 95%+ of the time.Art
On 11/19/2012 11:56 PM, Patricia Butterfield wrote:
> An orcs boat can never be a finisher, it did not start and
under a5 the race committee can score it as such. This will
always take precedence.
>
> Mike b
>
> Sent from my iPad mike butterfield
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> -!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!-
http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!- On-Line
Sailwave help...http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Townsend's
Sailwave User Guide is available from
http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~
Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:sailwave-digest%40yahoogroups.com> ~ To unsubscribe from
the SUG please send blank email to
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<mailto:sailwave-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
The rules are very clear regarding not giving a boat a finishing position without a hearing & are stated in Appendix A5. For all other reasons, the rules require that a boat is protested.
However, at the risk of upsetting the ‘experts’, club racing quite often demands a more relaxed approach. In many instances, the offender already knows why they have not been given a finishing position or has been told in the changing room & has packed up & gone home. The difficulty is what to do if he is not around to explain why he/she has been scored in this way?
I tend to favour recording OCS, DNF, DSQ etc but not deny the offender the right to a hearing (if they want one) when they learn that they have been scored in this manner. As I have said before this is only for club racing, when the members have agreed with this approach, & must never be used for open meetings & above.
The reason that boats must have the right to a hearing (excluding A5) is that the race committee cannot always guarantee that they have made the right decision. The boat may have been seen to be over the line at the start or missed a mark etc but it is not always possible to watch the boat for sufficient time to check that they have not corrected themselves.
Regards
Ralph
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···
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ian Savell
Sent: 21 November 2012 09:31
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] OCD
Contrary to what some people seem to think, ISAF Appendix A is pretty well thought out and avoids most scoring pitfalls. In a regatta, scores for DNS, DNF and disqualification are all based on the number of entries in the regatta. And in a series longer than a regatta they are based on the number who came to the starting area for the race, i.e. series entries - DNC. There is therefore no ambiguity regarding OCS vs DNF or RET. I therefore commend this scoring method to the world’s race committees!
However, as we have a number of respected race administrators here, I’d like to ask one related question:
If a boat clearly fails to sail the course, infringing rule 28, and then finishes according to the definition (crosses the finish line from the course side), what should the race officer/race committee do? At our club we normally score DNF without a hearing. Reason? Typically our finish line stretches across the course, and is crossed at the end of every lap and maybe when returning to the docking area. So our logic is that the line only becomes a finish line for a boat after the boat has sailed the course. (“clearly fails to sail the course” includes returning to the docking area after sailing fewer laps than required or returning to the docking area on the last lap having been observed to omit one or more marks).
I note that we can’t change in our SIs the definition of finishing, so we really should disqualify the boat in question, by convening a protest committee and having the “DNF” boat attend a hearing. That would be incredibly onerous, especially as the boat in question has probably packed up and gone home!
On 20 November 2012 23:05, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net wrote:
This is a common mistake make by scorers and other race committee officials.
Under the RRS there is a definition of “finish” and under that
definition you can finish without officially starting. That means that
you might have more official “finishers” than official “starters.” The
recommendation is for the RC to record the time of every boat that
“finishes” even if she might end up being scored something else. If an
OCS boat does not finish then I would score her OCS instead of DNF as
that occurred first in time. However, there is nowhere in the rulebook
where that is stated as a hard and fast rule (which may make it an
oversight worth fixing in 2017).
For scoring, one sometimes wants to use the number of boats that
attempted to start and sail the course. I believe under Sailwave that
would be official starters plus OCS (or, alternatively, non-DNC minus
DNS). Or, you might want to include folks who simply got themselves off
the beach and into the starting area but for whatever reason didn’t
start. That would be official starters plus OCS plus DNS (or simply
non-DNC). But, the biggest mistake by scorers is to score boats that
didn’t start as DNS when they didn’t come out to the starting area (and
never left the dock or the beach). So, I would be very careful if you
use DNS in your scoring formulas.
I tend to agree with the sentiment that DNF should be the number of
attempters (meaning “starters” in common language but “starers plus OCS”
using the official language of the RRS) plus one. A few classes have
something like that in their standard SIs. However, for consistency I
would lean toward sticking to the default under the rulebook (entries
plus one for a series that is a regatta) as that is pretty much just as
fair 95%+ of the time.
Art
On 11/19/2012 11:56 PM, Patricia Butterfield wrote:
An orcs boat can never be a finisher, it did not start and under a5 the race committee can score it as such. This will always take precedence.
Mike b
Sent from my iPad mike butterfield
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This can work, as a boat that believes that the have been unjustly DSQ'd can request redress.
One point - how does the boat know why she has been DSQ'd
Gordon
···
On 21/11/2012 10:28, Mike wrote:
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Ian Savell <iansavell@...> wrote:
>
> If a boat clearly fails to sail the course, infringing rule 28, and then
> finishes according to the definition (crosses the finish line from the
> course side), what should the race officer/race committee do? At our club
> we normally score DNF without a hearing. Reason? Typically our finish line
> stretches across the course, and is crossed at the end of every lap and
> maybe when returning to the docking area. So our logic is that the line
> only becomes a finish line for a boat after the boat has sailed the course.
> ("clearly fails to sail the course" includes returning to the docking area
> after sailing fewer laps than required or returning to the docking area on
> the last lap having been observed to omit one or more marks).
>
> I note that we can't change in our SIs the definition of finishing, so we
> really should disqualify the boat in question, by convening a protest
> committee and having the "DNF" boat attend a hearing. That would be
> incredibly onerous, especially as the boat in question has probably packed
> up and gone home!
>
Contained Lancing SC SI #12 <http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/downloads/sailinginstructions.pdf> "Sailing Correct Course -- when the Race Committee observes a boat failing to sail the correct course,the boat so observed will be disqualified without a hearing. This changes RRS63.1 and A5."
No one's challenged this approach (yet)....
Mike
Lancing SC
My club uses this approach for certain technical rule violations (recrossing the finish line after finishing, which we prohibit in our SIs because of the geometry of our finish for certain races) BUT we do something I would recommend. A boat is entitled to a hearing merely by asking for it - not necessary to request redress. While the rules DO allow the RC to eliminate protest hearings I don't think it is a good idea and would discourage it as much as possible. Personally, I think sailing the course is probably too important to be done without a hearing (either before or "on request").
A reminder, you can hold a protest hearing without the boat being present provided you write your SIs regarding notice correctly.
Art
···
On 11/21/2012 2:28 AM, Mike wrote:
Contained Lancing SC SI #12
<http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/downloads/sailinginstructions.pdf>
"Sailing Correct Course � when the Race Committee observes a boat
failing to sail the correct course, the boat so observed will be
disqualified without a hearing. This changes RRS63.1 and A5."No one's
challenged this approach (yet)....MikeLancing SC
Issue: an OCS boat is DNF. Per A11 a OCS boat must be scored OCS and also per A11 a DNF boat must be scored DNF. Your answer ignores that two parts of A11 apply and we aren't told which one to follow. I would score the boat OCS as that occurred earlier in time but it would be pretty hard to argue the scoring her DNF is technically wrong. The default scoring system in the rulebook doesn't worry about this as the points assigned would be the same.
Art
···
On 11/21/2012 1:16 AM, Patricia Butterfield wrote:
On OCS boat has to be scored as such. Appendix a11 is mandatory for what the codes describe and ocs is one of the mandated codes.
Mike b iu ij iro
Sent from my iPad mike butterfield
On 20 Nov 2012, at 23:11, "Art Engel"<artengel123@earthlink.net> wrote:
This is a common mistake make by scorers and other race committee officials.
Under the RRS there is a definition of "finish" and under that
definition you can finish without officially starting. That means that
you might have more official "finishers" than official "starters." The
recommendation is for the RC to record the time of every boat that
"finishes" even if she might end up being scored something else. If an
OCS boat does not finish then I would score her OCS instead of DNF as
that occurred first in time. However, there is nowhere in the rulebook
where that is stated as a hard and fast rule (which may make it an
oversight worth fixing in 2017).For scoring, one sometimes wants to use the number of boats that
attempted to start and sail the course. I believe under Sailwave that
would be official starters plus OCS (or, alternatively, non-DNC minus
DNS). Or, you might want to include folks who simply got themselves off
the beach and into the starting area but for whatever reason didn't
start. That would be official starters plus OCS plus DNS (or simply
non-DNC). But, the biggest mistake by scorers is to score boats that
didn't start as DNS when they didn't come out to the starting area (and
never left the dock or the beach). So, I would be very careful if you
use DNS in your scoring formulas.I tend to agree with the sentiment that DNF should be the number of
attempters (meaning "starters" in common language but "starers plus OCS"
using the official language of the RRS) plus one. A few classes have
something like that in their standard SIs. However, for consistency I
would lean toward sticking to the default under the rulebook (entries
plus one for a series that is a regatta) as that is pretty much just as
fair 95%+ of the time.Art
On 11/19/2012 11:56 PM, Patricia Butterfield wrote:
An orcs boat can never be a finisher, it did not start and under a5 the race committee can score it as such. This will always take precedence.
Mike b
Sent from my iPad mike butterfield
------------------------------------
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