OOD/Discards

I have a question about scoring in Sailwave

We have a series scored using Appendix A standard low point. The discard profile is s/2-0.5 so 6 races into the series, there are four races to count and two discards. One sailor has done OOD duty for 4 of the 6 races and competed in the other two, scoring 5 and 2. OOD scoring is set as 'average of non-discarded races'.

Sailwave scores him as:

R1 - 22.0 OOD
R2 - 20.0 OOD
R3 - (5.0)
R4 - (2.0)
R5 - 24.0 OOD
R6 - 23.0 OOD

Total - 96.0
Nett - 89.0

The OOD scores in the 20s look to be the number of boats that started the race + 1. The sailor is questioning why it isn't the 24 and 23 that are being discarded and I don't have an answer. Can anyone please explain why:

i) the average OOD scores are so high (20+)
ii) why the lowest scores are the ones that are discarded

Many thanks,
Dave.

dave - can you attach the series in a reply -
easier to answer then. ta

cj

vareo_dave wrote:

···

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Thanks - have emailed the files.

Rgds,
Dave.

the more general question is how to score this
(Art?)

RDGa, RDGa, 2, 5, RDGa, RDGa

2 discards.

Where in this context RDGa is defined as average of sailed races that
have not been discarded.

You cant discard the RDGa because they are by definition computed by
the non-discarded results - which in this pathalofical case happens to
be all RDGa… Chicken and egg otherwise…

CJ

vareo_dave wrote:

···

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Colin,

As RDGa is the average of non discardable results, the score should be here 2. So for 1 discard, 5 is discarded and points are 10.0

This may be unfair if one wins one race, makes a poor result in another one and manages to be OOD for the remainder of the racer, he will be the overall winner.

In the example, if you take the average of all results including RDGa (3.5), then total score with 1 discard is 16.0

A competitor may not take an advantage of being OOD (or being penalised if he makes just 1 bad race and is OOD for the remainder)

Now imagine the worst case…

OOD - OOD - DNE - 1 - OOD - OOD then … 1 is the only discardable result and the score is 5x points for DSQ…

For purely mathematical matters, (and that’s the main point for you), as long as the number of RDGa doesn’t exceed (number of races - max number of RDGa) /2, there is no problem. So many RDGa’s in a series is unlikely, but is not for OOD’s.

Regards

Phil

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:23 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] OOD/Discards

the more general question is how to score this (Art?)

RDGa, RDGa, 2, 5, RDGa, RDGa

2 discards.

Where in this context RDGa is defined as average of sailed races that have not been discarded.

You cant discard the RDGa because they are by definition computed by the non-discarded results - which in this pathalofical case happens to be all RDGa… Chicken and egg otherwise…

CJ

vareo_dave wrote:


I have a question about scoring in Sailwave
We have a series scored using Appendix A standard low point. The discard profile is s/2-0.5 so 6 races into the series, there are four races to count and two discards. One sailor has done OOD duty for 4 of the 6 races and competed in the other two, scoring 5 and 2. OOD scoring is set as 'average of non-discarded races'.
Sailwave scores him as:
R1 - 22.0 OOD
R2 - 20.0 OOD
R3 - (5.0)
R4 - (2.0)
R5 - 24.0 OOD
R6 - 23.0 OOD
Total - 96.0
Nett - 89.0
The OOD scores in the 20s look to be the number of boats that started the race + 1. The sailor is questioning why it isn't the 24 and 23 that are being discarded and I don't have an answer. Can anyone please explain why:
i) the average OOD scores are so high (20+)
ii) why the lowest scores are the ones that are discarded
Many thanks,
Dave.
------------------------------------
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Does Sailwave have a method for handling the ILCA (Laser) North American Master Handicap System?

Has anyone used Sailwave to score a regatta using the ILCA (Laser) North American Master Handicap System?

Does anyone have a sample Sailwave file indicating how it was accomplished?

The last time Alamitos Bay Yacht Club hosted a Masters Regatta we had four scoring codes of APP, MST, GM, and GGM. The scoring code was changed each race so it was always equal to the #Races x Handicap. An additional race was added to the series that contained the appropriate scoring code for the competitor; APP, MST, GM, and GGM. handicap scores #races x handicap. The scoring section of the NOR is written as follows:

13. SCORING

13.1 ** ** The Low Point Scoring System, Appendix A4, will be used except as modified in Paragraph 13.4 below.

13.2 Ten (10) races are scheduled. A minimum of three (3) races must be completed to constitute a regatta.

13.3 There will be one throw-out when six (6) or more races are sailed. When ten (10) races are sailed there will be two (2) throwouts.

13.4 The ILCA North American Master Handicap System will be in place. The following points are added to each race to find the overall series winner: Apprentices - add 3 points - Masters - add 2 points - Grand Masters - add 1 point - Great Grand Masters - add 0 points. The results are recalculated and the person with the lowest score wins, etc.

Many Thanks

Mark Townsend
s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

···

From: Colin Jenkins

Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 3:15 AM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [sailwave] OOD/Discards

dave - can you attach the series in a reply - easier to answer then. ta
cj

vareo_dave wrote:


I have a question about scoring in Sailwave
We have a series scored using Appendix A standard low point. The discard profile is s/2-0.5 so 6 races into the series, there are four races to count and two discards. One sailor has done OOD duty for 4 of the 6 races and competed in the other two, scoring 5 and 2. OOD scoring is set as 'average of non-discarded races'.
Sailwave scores him as:
R1 - 22.0 OOD
R2 - 20.0 OOD
R3 - (5.0)
R4 - (2.0)
R5 - 24.0 OOD
R6 - 23.0 OOD
Total - 96.0
Nett - 89.0
The OOD scores in the 20s look to be the number of boats that started the race + 1. The sailor is questioning why it isn't the 24 and 23 that are being discarded and I don't have an answer. Can anyone please explain why:
i) the average OOD scores are so high (20+)
ii) why the lowest scores are the ones that are discarded
Many thanks,
Dave.
------------------------------
------
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I can see one potential problem - once again because for many classes
it seems to be too complicated to simply copy appendix L

3 races need to be completed to constitiute a regatta - that is a race
in which at least one boat starts, finishes AND the race is not
subsequently abandoned following a request for redress.

However, for “throw outs” races merely have to be sailed. When is a
race sailed? If, for instance, a race is started then immediately
abandoned and not re-sailed, has it been sailed. If a race is started,
finished but then abandoned by the protest committee, has it been
“sailed”.

Good luck - if that anaomaly has slipped through the drafting procedure
there are inevitably others.

Gordon

S. Mark Townsend wrote:

···

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Thanks for your observations on the language, the NOR is still in draft.

Has anyone used Sailwave to score a regatta where the ILCA (Laser) North American Master Handicap System was being used?

Mark Townsend
s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

···

From: gordon

Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 9:55 AM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Laser North American Master Handicap System

I can see one potential problem - once again because for many classes it seems to be too complicated to simply copy appendix L

3 races need to be completed to constitiute a regatta - that is a race in which at least one boat starts, finishes AND the race is not subsequently abandoned following a request for redress.

However, for “throw outs” races merely have to be sailed. When is a race sailed? If, for instance, a race is started then immediately abandoned and not re-sailed, has it been sailed. If a race is started, finished but then abandoned by the protest committee, has it been “sailed”.

Good luck - if that anaomaly has slipped through the drafting procedure there are inevitably others.

Gordon

S. Mark Townsend wrote:

Does Sailwave have a method for handling the ILCA (Laser) North American Master Handicap System?

Has anyone used Sailwave to score a regatta using the ILCA (Laser) North American Master Handicap System?

Does anyone have a sample Sailwave file indicating how it was accomplished?

The last time Alamitos Bay Yacht Club hosted a Masters Regatta we had four scoring codes of APP, MST, GM, and GGM. The scoring code was changed each race so it was always equal to the #Races x Handicap. An additional race was added to the series that contained the appropriate scoring code for the competitor; APP, MST, GM, and GGM. handicap scores #races x handicap. The scoring section of the NOR is written as follows:

** 13. SCORING**

13.1 ** ** The Low Point Scoring System, Appendix A4, will be used except as modified in Paragraph 13.4 below.

13.2 Ten (10) races are scheduled. A minimum of three (3) races must be completed to constitute a regatta.

13.3 There will be one throw-out when six (6) or more races are sailed. When ten (10) races are sailed there will be two (2) throwouts.

13.4 The ILCA North American Master Handicap System will be in place. The following points are added to each race to find the overall series winner: Apprentices - add 3 points - Masters - add 2 points - Grand Masters - add 1 point - ** Great Grand Masters** - add 0 points. The results are recalculated and the person with the lowest score wins, etc.

Many Thanks

Mark Townsend
s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

From: Colin Jenkins

Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 3:15 AM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [sailwave] OOD/Discards

dave - can you attach the series in a reply - easier to answer then. ta
cj

vareo_dave wrote:


I have a question about scoring in Sailwave
We have a series scored using Appendix A standard low point. The discard profile is s/2-0.5 so 6 races into the series, there are four races to count and two discards. One sailor has done OOD duty for 4 of the 6 races and competed in the other two, scoring 5 and 2. OOD scoring is set as 'average of non-discarded races'.
Sailwave scores him as:
R1 - 22.0 OOD
R2 - 20.0 OOD
R3 - (5.0)
R4 - (2.0)
R5 - 24.0 OOD
R6 - 23.0 OOD
Total - 96.0
Nett - 89.0
The OOD scores in the 20s look to be the number of boats that started the race + 1. The sailor is questioning why it isn't the 24 and 23 that are being discarded and I don't have an answer. Can anyone please explain why:
i) the average OOD scores are so high (20+)
ii) why the lowest scores are the ones that are discarded
Many thanks,
Dave.
------------------------------
------
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Mark, I can’t think of any way to do it other than
what you have said w/o using a real handicap system and entering places
as times but that would probably be even more hassle. There is a
requirement for penalty points per race - I was going to do it as a
simple real number field - but perhaps it needs to be an expression so
it can be based on a field value (like “master”).

CJ

S. Mark Townsend wrote:

···

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Colin, Thanks for the feedback. It worked the way we did it last time and we had no complaints from the competitors. So I will stick with the method that worked last time.

Any sailing in Mumbles this time of the year or are you closed up for the Winter.

Thanks again

Mark Townsend
s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

···

From: Colin Jenkins

Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 12:47 AM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Laser North American Master Handicap System

Mark, I can’t think of any way to do it other than what you have said w/o using a real handicap system and entering places as times but that would probably be even more hassle. There is a requirement for penalty points per race - I was going to do it as a simple real number field - but perhaps it needs to be an expression so it can be based on a field value (like “master”).
CJ

S. Mark Townsend wrote:

Does Sailwave have a method for handling the ILCA (Laser) North American Master Handicap System?

Has anyone used Sailwave to score a regatta using the ILCA (Laser) North American Master Handicap System?

Does anyone have a sample Sailwave file indicating how it was accomplished?

The last time Alamitos Bay Yacht Club hosted a Masters Regatta we had four scoring codes of APP, MST, GM, and GGM. The scoring code was changed each race so it was always equal to the #Races x Handicap. An additional race was added to the series that contained the appropriate scoring code for the competitor; APP, MST, GM, and GGM. handicap scores #races x handicap. The scoring section of the NOR is written as follows:

** 13. SCORING**

13.1 ** ** The Low Point Scoring System, Appendix A4, will be used except as modified in Paragraph 13.4 below.

13.2 Ten (10) races are scheduled. A minimum of three (3) races must be completed to constitute a regatta.

13.3 There will be one throw-out when six (6) or more races are sailed. When ten (10) races are sailed there will be two (2) throwouts.

13.4 The ILCA North American Master Handicap System will be in place. The following points are added to each race to find the overall series winner: Apprentices - add 3 points - Masters - add 2 points - Grand Masters - add 1 point - ** Great Grand Masters** - add 0 points. The results are recalculated and the person with the lowest score wins, etc.

Many Thanks

Mark Townsend
s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

From: Colin Jenkins

Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 3:15 AM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [sailwave] OOD/Discards

dave - can you attach the series in a reply - easier to answer then. ta
cj

vareo_dave wrote:


I have a question about scoring in Sailwave
We have a series scored using Appendix A standard low point. The discard profile is s/2-0.5 so 6 races into the series, there are four races to count and two discards. One sailor has done OOD duty for 4 of the 6 races and competed in the other two, scoring 5 and 2. OOD scoring is set as 'average of non-discarded races'.
Sailwave scores him as:
R1 - 22.0 OOD
R2 - 20.0 OOD
R3 - (5.0)
R4 - (2.0)
R5 - 24.0 OOD
R6 - 23.0 OOD
Total - 96.0
Nett - 89.0
The OOD scores in the 20s look to be the number of boats that started the race + 1. The sailor is questioning why it isn't the 24 and 23 that are being discarded and I don't have an answer. Can anyone please explain why:
i) the average OOD scores are so high (20+)
ii) why the lowest scores are the ones that are discarded
Many thanks,
Dave.
------------------------------
------
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Hi Mark, in a way it’s is in fact a nice solution
for the competitors becaus ethey can see their real placement in the
races rather than a handicap adjusted place (points).

Maybe it just needs codes to be based on expressions…

CJ

S. Mark Townsend wrote:

···

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HTML ~ Mark Thompson’s Sailwave User Manual is available from ~ Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG please send blank email to Yahoo! Groups Links
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The only annoying part is that you have to remember to adjust the handicap points, which is contained in a scoring code, after each race is completed.

APP = 3 x # Races

MST = 2 x # Races

GM = 1 x # Races

GGM = 0 x # Races

Otherwise, as you state, it provides a clearer view of how a competitor performed in each individual race.

Mark Townsend
s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

···

From: Colin Jenkins

Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 1:16 AM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Laser North American Master Handicap System

Hi Mark, in a way it’s is in fact a nice solution for the competitors becaus ethey can see their real placement in the races rather than a handicap adjusted place (points).

Maybe it just needs codes to be based on expressions…

CJ

S. Mark Townsend wrote:

Colin, Thanks for the feedback. It worked the way we did it last time and we had no complaints from the competitors. So I will stick with the method that worked last time.

Any sailing in Mumbles this time of the year or are you closed up for the Winter.

Thanks again

Mark Townsend
s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

From: Colin Jenkins

Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 12:47 AM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Laser North American Master Handicap System

Mark, I can’t think of any way to do it other than what you have said w/o using a real handicap system and entering places as times but that would probably be even more hassle. There is a requirement for penalty points per race - I was going to do it as a simple real number field - but perhaps it needs to be an expression so it can be based on a field value (like “master”).
CJ

S. Mark Townsend wrote:

Does Sailwave have a method for handling the ILCA (Laser) North American Master Handicap System?
Has anyone used Sailwave to score a regatta using the ILCA (Laser) North American Master Handicap System?
Does anyone have a sample Sailwave file indicating how it was accomplished?
The last time Alamitos Bay Yacht Club hosted a Masters Regatta we had four scoring codes of APP, MST, GM, and GGM. The scoring code was changed each race so it was always equal to the #Races x Handicap. An additional race was added to the series that contained the appropriate scoring code for the competitor; APP, MST, GM, and GGM.  handicap scores #races x handicap.     The scoring section of the NOR is written as follows:

** 13. SCORING**

13.1 ** ** The Low Point Scoring System, Appendix A4, will be used except as modified in Paragraph 13.4 below.

13.2    Ten (10) races are scheduled.      A minimum of three (3) races must be completed to constitute a regatta.
13.3        There will be one throw-out when six (6) or more races are sailed.      When ten (10) races are sailed there will be two (2) throwouts.
13.4        The ILCA North American Master Handicap System will be in place.      The following points are added to each race to find the overall series winner: **Apprentices** - add 3 points - **Masters** - add 2 points - **Grand Masters** - add 1 point - **Great Grand Masters** - add 0 points.      The results are recalculated and the person with the lowest score wins, etc.

Many Thanks

Mark Townsend
s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

From: Colin Jenkins

Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 3:15 AM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [sailwave] OOD/Discards

dave - can you attach the series in a reply - easier to answer then. ta

cj

vareo_dave wrote:


I have a question about scoring in Sailwave
We have a series scored using Appendix A standard low point. The discard profile is s/2-0.5 so 6 races into the series, there are four races to count and two discards. One sailor has done OOD duty for 4 of the 6 races and competed in the other two, scoring 5 and 2. OOD scoring is set as 'average of non-discarded races'.
Sailwave scores him as:
R1 - 22.0 OOD
R2 - 20.0 OOD
R3 - (5.0)
R4 - (2.0)
R5 - 24.0 OOD
R6 - 23.0 OOD
Total - 96.0
Nett - 89.0
The OOD scores in the 20s look to be the number of boats that started the race + 1. The sailor is questioning why it isn't the 24 and 23 that are being discarded and I don't have an answer. Can anyone please explain why:
i) the average OOD scores are so high (20+)
ii) why the lowest scores are the ones that are discarded
Many thanks,
Dave.
------------------------------
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thats what io meant about codes with expressions
to evaluate them - probably with the same variables as the points
expressions. cj

S. Mark Townsend wrote:

···

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<
> To change settings via email:
<> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Hi there,

I was running the Laser European this summer and ILCA has a special penalty system (ARB and PTS) decided by the jury. Is this in the SIs for this event too?

See attached files… I can tell you it was a great hazzle to figure it all out.

I really liked the idea with a “number field” for handicap and PTS points. I really would like ILCA to handle PTS as additional points in the whole series and not in race.

Regards / Vänliga hälsningar

Anders Landenstad

Skype: anders.landenstad

Anders,

Did you ever find out from your judges how these penalties are defined?

regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield, South Africa

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Anders Landenstad

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 7:27 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Laser North American Master Handicap System [3 Attachments]

Hi there,

I was running the Laser European this summer and ILCA has a special penalty system (ARB and PTS) decided by the jury. Is this in the SIs for this event too?

See attached files… I can tell you it was a great hazzle to figure it all out.

I really liked the idea with a “number field” for handicap and PTS points. I really would like ILCA to handle PTS as additional points in the whole series and not in race.

Regards / Vänliga hälsningar

*** Anders Landenstad***
Skype: anders.landenstad

No,

but you will find NOR and SI here:

http://events.laserinternational.org/incs/cnst/wrtbl/sites/31/NoticeOfRace.pdf

http://events.laserinternational.org/incs/cnst/wrtbl/sites/31/EuropeanLaserStandardYouthSailingInstructions.pdf

I would really be happy If we could have Sailwave working "the ILCA way" and make a guideline.

The preferred software is that "from Holland" and that was developed for Lasers in the begining and is working well (not)... ILCA is aware that Sailwave is used more frequently these days and is looking forward to a guideline for Sailwave.

Cheers
Anders

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Malcolm Osborne" <malcolmo@...> wrote:

Anders,

Did you ever find out from your judges how these penalties are defined?

regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield, South Africa
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Anders Landenstad
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 7:27 AM
  Subject: Re: [sailwave] Laser North American Master Handicap System [3 Attachments]

  [Attachment(s) from Anders Landenstad included below]
   
  Hi there,

  I was running the Laser European this summer and ILCA has a special penalty system (ARB and PTS) decided by the jury. Is this in the SIs for this event too?

  See attached files... I can tell you it was a great hazzle to figure it all out.

  I really liked the idea with a "number field" for handicap and PTS points. I really would like ILCA to handle PTS as additional points in the whole series and not in race.

        Regards / Vänliga hälsningar

        Anders Landenstad
        Skype: anders.landenstad

I would assume that “scoring penalty” in those SIs is “shorthand”
(often a euphemism for sloppy drafting) for “Scoring Penalty as defined
in rule 44.3©”. The penalty for for an Arbitration decision is a
Scoring Penalty of 30% see SI 20.3

PTS does create a problem - there is nothing in the SIs that removes
the possibility for a competitor penalised after crossing the finishing
line to take a penalty under rule 44.2 then finishing according to the
definition of finishing. Surely, if a boat is given a penalty after
finishing she has not finished until she has completed the penalty,
and, under P2.1, if she does not take a penalty she is DSQ without a
hearing.

I am all in favour of giving such a boat a Scoring Penalty in lieu of
DSQ, as this makes life easier for race committee, judges and
competitors but the SIs would have to modify P2.1. After a rapid
perusal of supplied SIs I couldn’t find such a modification.

Gordon

Anders wrote:

···

No,

but you will find NOR and SI here:

http://events.laserinternational.org/incs/cnst/wrtbl/sites/31/NoticeOfRace.pdf

http://events.laserinternational.org/incs/cnst/wrtbl/sites/31/EuropeanLaserStandardYouthSailingInstructions.pdf

I would really be happy If we could have Sailwave working “the ILCA
way” and make a guideline.

The preferred software is that “from Holland” and that was developed
for Lasers in the begining and is working well (not)… ILCA is aware
that Sailwave is used more frequently these days and is looking forward
to a guideline for Sailwave.

Cheers
Anders

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com,
“Malcolm Osborne” <malcolmo@…> wrote:

Anders,

Did you ever find out from your judges how these penalties are
defined?

regards,

Malcolm Osborne

Sedgefield, South Africa

----- Original Message -----

From: Anders Landenstad

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 7:27 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Laser North American Master Handicap
System [3 Attachments]

[Attachment(s) from Anders Landenstad included below]

Hi there,

I was running the Laser European this summer and ILCA has a
special penalty system (ARB and PTS) decided by the jury. Is this in
the SIs for this event too?

See attached files… I can tell you it was a great hazzle to
figure it all out.

I really liked the idea with a “number field” for handicap and PTS
points. I really would like ILCA to handle PTS as additional points in
the whole series and not in race.

Regards / Vänliga hälsningar

Anders Landenstad

Skype: anders.landenstad

It is a common provision for a penalty for breaking certain rules to "be
at the discretion of the protest committee." That means the PC can do
what it feels will be fair in the circumstances. Personally, I would
WANT that penalty applied to a race so we (the readers) have some chance
of figuring out what it might be for. The way to handle that in the
program would be to have a code (say PEN, then PEN2, PEN3, etc.) with
the description of the code to be customized. Then the user could input
as a description "PC assigned penalty of x points for breach of SI x.x"
or whatever. The reader could then mentally subtract the assigned
penalty points to figure out the original finishing place.

Art

Anders,

Did you ever find out from your judges how these penalties are

defined?

regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield, South Africa
  From: Anders Landenstad
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 7:27 AM
  Subject: Re: [sailwave] Laser North American Master Handicap System

[3 Attachments]

  Hi there,

  I was running the Laser European this summer and ILCA has a special

penalty system (ARB and PTS) decided by the jury. Is this in the SIs for
this event too?

  See attached files... I can tell you it was a great hazzle to figure

it all out.

  I really liked the idea with a "number field" for handicap and PTS

points. I really would like ILCA to handle PTS as additional points in
the whole series and not in race.

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Malcolm Osborne" <malcolmo@...> wrote:

  ----- Original Message -----

        Regards / Vänliga hälsningar

        Anders Landenstad

I typed in and "sent" a reply already but it mysteriously vanished and
didn't get posted! So, if you've seen prior comments by me I apologize.

2c. Re: Laser North American Master Handicap System
    Posted by: "gordon" gordondavies@eircom.net gordonwilliamdavies
    Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:21 am ((PST))

I would assume that "scoring penalty" in those SIs is "shorthand"
(often a euphemism for sloppy drafting) for "Scoring Penalty as
defined in rule 44.3(c)". The penalty for for an Arbitration
decision is a Scoring Penalty of 30% see SI 20.3

I think this wording can be improved. Use of CAPS in "Scoring Penalty"
implies that it is the "Scoring Penalty" referred to in rule 44.3, which
it is NOT (for example, no yellow flat is required).

Original SI wording was: "If the arbitrators penalise a boat, the
penalty will be a scoring penalty of 30% (rounded up to the next whole
number) of the number of entrants in the fleet. See rule 44.3(c)."

Instead, for the last phrase use "the penalty shall be a scoring penalty
of 30%, calculated as provided in rule 44.3(c)."

Using "scoring penalty" instead of "Scoring Penalty" clarifies that this
is NOT the standard Scoring Penalty of rule 44.3 (so, for example, no
yellow flag is required). Using "calculated as provided in" means that
certain important concepts will automatically apply, such as "no worse
than DNF" and "round <0.5 down and 0.5 or greater up."

Note - The actual SI wording rounds 4.001 up to 5.0 whereas rule 44.3(c)
(invoked by my wording) does not. I feel the default in 44.3(c) is a
better policy. But, if you want the original instead then for the last
phrase use "the penalty shall be a scoring penalty of 30%, calculated as
provided in rule 44.3(c) except that any fractional number of places
shall be rounded to the next highest whole number of places." But, as I
said, I think the default in 44.3(c) is fairer and I would use that.

PTS does create a problem - there is nothing in the SIs that
removes the possibility for a competitor penalised after crossing
the finishing line to take a penalty under rule 44.2 then
finishing according to the definition of finishing. Surely, if a
boat is given a penalty after finishing she has not finished
until she has completed the penalty, and, under P2.1, if she does
not take a penalty she is DSQ without a hearing.

This comment doesn't make sense to me.

The RRS may not be as straight-forward as they should be (meaning that
the answer isn't obvious). However, I believe that upon study it is
clear that a competitor may take the appropriate penalty under P2.1 and
refinish. That is intended and not a mistake. The logic is:

i. P2.1 says that you can be penalized for breaking rule 42 after you
have finished and even after you are no longer racing (finished or
retired and cleared the finishing line and marks) although of course the
incident must have occurred before you finished.

ii. The penalty under P2.1 is a Two-Turns Penalty under 44.2.

iii. The Defn "Finish" says that a boat finishes when she "crosses the
finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark, either
for the first time or after taking a penalty under rule 44.2 or ...."

So, if you take a penalty under 44.2, for whatever reason, and refinish
then your appropriate finish is the refinish. However, the RC should be
sure to note the order (or time) of both crossing in case it is needed
by the PC for redress or whatever.

I am all in favour of giving such a boat a Scoring Penalty in
lieu of DSQ, as this makes life easier for race committee, judges
and competitors but the SIs would have to modify P2.1. After a
rapid perusal of supplied SIs I couldn't find such a
modification.

Gordon

This might not be a bad idea for anyone who "forgets" to take the
penalty and refinish but frankly it seems to me to be unnecessary
complication. Personally, I don't think I would be inclined to use it.

Art

ARB is not a problem i think. It's the way of handling PTS.

An example:
One sailor received a 20 points penalty for not following "sign in/out rules" and after the race he was given another 2 points for breaking a course leg after finish while other was racing. So the PTS score could bee anything and I would really like to handle this as just extra added points to the final results and not a penalty in a race... And the raceoffice could put a PTS-note on the official scoringboard instead....

Anders

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "art.engel" <artengel123@...> wrote:

I typed in and "sent" a reply already but it mysteriously vanished and
didn't get posted! So, if you've seen prior comments by me I apologize.

> 2c. Re: Laser North American Master Handicap System
> Posted by: "gordon" gordondavies@... gordonwilliamdavies
> Date: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:21 am ((PST))
>
> I would assume that "scoring penalty" in those SIs is "shorthand"
> (often a euphemism for sloppy drafting) for "Scoring Penalty as
> defined in rule 44.3(c)". The penalty for for an Arbitration
> decision is a Scoring Penalty of 30% see SI 20.3

I think this wording can be improved. Use of CAPS in "Scoring Penalty"
implies that it is the "Scoring Penalty" referred to in rule 44.3, which
it is NOT (for example, no yellow flat is required).

Original SI wording was: "If the arbitrators penalise a boat, the
penalty will be a scoring penalty of 30% (rounded up to the next whole
number) of the number of entrants in the fleet. See rule 44.3(c)."

Instead, for the last phrase use "the penalty shall be a scoring penalty
of 30%, calculated as provided in rule 44.3(c)."

Using "scoring penalty" instead of "Scoring Penalty" clarifies that this
is NOT the standard Scoring Penalty of rule 44.3 (so, for example, no
yellow flag is required). Using "calculated as provided in" means that
certain important concepts will automatically apply, such as "no worse
than DNF" and "round <0.5 down and 0.5 or greater up."

Note - The actual SI wording rounds 4.001 up to 5.0 whereas rule 44.3(c)
(invoked by my wording) does not. I feel the default in 44.3(c) is a
better policy. But, if you want the original instead then for the last
phrase use "the penalty shall be a scoring penalty of 30%, calculated as
provided in rule 44.3(c) except that any fractional number of places
shall be rounded to the next highest whole number of places." But, as I
said, I think the default in 44.3(c) is fairer and I would use that.

> PTS does create a problem - there is nothing in the SIs that
> removes the possibility for a competitor penalised after crossing
> the finishing line to take a penalty under rule 44.2 then
> finishing according to the definition of finishing. Surely, if a
> boat is given a penalty after finishing she has not finished
> until she has completed the penalty, and, under P2.1, if she does
> not take a penalty she is DSQ without a hearing.

This comment doesn't make sense to me.

The RRS may not be as straight-forward as they should be (meaning that
the answer isn't obvious). However, I believe that upon study it is
clear that a competitor may take the appropriate penalty under P2.1 and
refinish. That is intended and not a mistake. The logic is:

i. P2.1 says that you can be penalized for breaking rule 42 after you
have finished and even after you are no longer racing (finished or
retired and cleared the finishing line and marks) although of course the
incident must have occurred before you finished.

ii. The penalty under P2.1 is a Two-Turns Penalty under 44.2.

iii. The Defn "Finish" says that a boat finishes when she "crosses the
finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark, either
for the first time or after taking a penalty under rule 44.2 or ...."

So, if you take a penalty under 44.2, for whatever reason, and refinish
then your appropriate finish is the refinish. However, the RC should be
sure to note the order (or time) of both crossing in case it is needed
by the PC for redress or whatever.

> I am all in favour of giving such a boat a Scoring Penalty in
> lieu of DSQ, as this makes life easier for race committee, judges
> and competitors but the SIs would have to modify P2.1. After a
> rapid perusal of supplied SIs I couldn't find such a
> modification.
>
> Gordon

This might not be a bad idea for anyone who "forgets" to take the
penalty and refinish but frankly it seems to me to be unnecessary
complication. Personally, I don't think I would be inclined to use it.

Art