PHRF Handicaps

[Rob_Morton]

Interesting thoughts Art,

I am listening

Rob Morton

88 Woodlands Lane, Bald Hills

Postal addres (P.O. Box 185)

Pambula NSW 2549

Phone: 02 6495 7414 Fax: 02 6495 7139 Mobile: 0428 246 903

email: robmorton@ozemail.com.au

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Art Engel
Sent: Tuesday, 4 December 2012 11:59
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: PHRF Handicaps

Rob et al,

Let me make a few observations here.

PHRF

First, PHRF is simply a handicap system, typically with rating issued in
seconds per mile of adjustment from a base boat. It does not change
after each race or even based solely on race results. Instead, a
handicapping committee will set and adjust PHRF handicaps. The system of
changing based solely on race results is known as “golf” or “skipper”
handicapping in the US and usually uses PHRF handicaps as a starting
point. That seems to have caused some confusion here.

I believe Sailwave pretty much always refers to “golf” or “skipper”
handicaps as “personal handicaps.” This can get confusing as both PHRF
and “personal handicaps” tend to be abbreviated and referred to as “PH.”

MEDIAN BOAT

I think you generally want to be using the median boat when making these
kind of comparisons. [Median is middle of odd number of boats and
average of middle two of even number of boats.]

If you use the first boat for comparison it is basically like realigning
all boats to perform the same as the 1st-place boat. That moves the
“average” of the fleet faster and faster with each recalculation. Any
new boat could then have a significant advantage because she will start
from the base handicap. Using multiple races should slow the trend but
doesn’t change its direction.

You don’t want to use an average because of “outliers.” Typically those
will be boats that had some problem and aren’t just last but are “way”
last. That has no impact on the median but would have an impact on the
average. Sometimes, you see the 33rd percentile used instead of median
(also called 50th percentile). Probably not too bad. It is based on the
assumption that the bottom third of a fleet is clueless so it uses the
median of the top two-thirds of a fleet. While that might sometimes be
true I suspect using the median would be at least as good and possibly
better in all situations. Using the 33rd percentile should cause an
upward bias like using the 1st-place boat, just not as strong.

INTENTIONALLY LOSING

I don’t see an easy way to fix this. I don’t think it breaks any rule
(after all, you can attack a competitor to hurt his performance as long
as you don’t break a rule - I don’t see any reason why you cannot sit on
your own performance in the same way). Plus, it requires reading into
the mind of the competitor, which is not yet scientifically possible (if
it ever will be!).

One obvious way around this is to use the last X races ignoring the best
and worst Y races. That should take care of the biggest “luck” factor
(both good and bad). For example, I might use the middle three of the
last five races. Methodology would be to: 1- calculate difference
between this boat and the median boat for every race, 2- discard biggest
and smallest differences, 3- calculate and use average of remaining
three races, 4- take some percentage (might be 100% or might be less)
and apply to the current race score.

My club uses just the last race (one race only) so we definitely see
boats intentionally losing by big margins. We assume it will all work
out in the end so don’t worry too much about it (we adjust by 15% of the
difference with a per-race cap). Using just the last race greatly
simplifies the calculations and our scoring program (not Sailwave for
those races) can handle it easily (it prints out the rating for the next
race right in the results for the current race). [Sailwave can currently
handle adjustments based on the last race but it only works for the 1st
or last boat as comparator and I believe only applies 100% of the
adjustment.]

I don’t think you can include a non-result race (a race a boat doesn’t
sail in) as that makes assumptions about how the boat would have done -
assumptions that are clearly wrong. Because of that, the calculation
formula is somewhat more difficult although Excel handles that well as
it ignores cells without data when calculating (cannot have a zero, it
needs to be blank).

I briefly tested Jon’s “outside Sailwave” solution and it is pretty
decent. Most importantly, it allows customization of the calculation
formula. The only downside is it is in a separate program and requires
Excel to work.

Jon - I don’t see a lot of incentive to put this into Sailwave although
I know a lot of people want it. The problem is they all want something
different. Your “outside” solution works quite well, I believe. The
problem with putting it into Sailwave is it only makes sense if you can
allow for the myriad of possible systems, and that seems like far more
work then the potential benefit would justify.

Glitch - Some time ago Colin attempted to allow the use of automatic
adjustments from the last race based on boats other than the 1st-place
boat. The programming got messed up and that works for the 1st-place and
last-place boat but not for the boats in between. If you could fix that
it is probably worthwhile. I think that would do what the OP
(mooloolabayachtclub@yahoo.com.au) asked about. I think it needs to be
formula-based where you would write a formula for the adjustment to the
current handicap (with a choice of variables for first, median and last).

For the record, I don’t think it matters whether you use the technical
median (average of two middle boats for even-sized finishers) or some
approximation (first of two such middle boats). What does matter is the
calculation is always the same. Currently, if you put in 50% Sailwave
sometimes uses the middle of odd-sized fleets and sometimes uses the
boat before the middle boat. And, if you have an even-sized fleet
Sailwave sometimes uses the first and sometimes the second of the two
middle boats. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to what Sailwave will
do so it cannot be written up for the SIs.

Art

On 12/2/2012 4:13 AM, Rob Morton wrote:

Thanks for your very quick response, Jon!

I can certainly see many problems with this, but many clubs and some
regattas do hold handicap events, and there will always be compromises.
Abnormal situations, people trying to go slower etc will always be a
potential problem. I don’t have an answer to that.

Our club has chosen average over 4 races, but it could be just as easily 2
or 3. I have taken the stance that if people do not race, they will be
counted as 0 secs behind the winner for those races, so will have
potentially less handicap adjustment.

I will have a good look at your excel spreadsheet. I have been trying to
work with time in excel and have difficulty using equations for two times,
such as seconds behind the winner. I will keep trying

Cheers

Rob Morton

Pambula NSW Australia

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Jon Eskdale
Sent: Sunday, 2 December 2012 22:48
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: PHRF Handicaps

Hi Rob,

The problem as I see it is there is no standard for Personal Handicap
perhaps the nearest one being ECHO but even then there are potentially quite
a few manual adjustments and parameters change.

I appreciate this is an area of interest to several people and I will have
a solution in the near future but at this moment the best I can offer is the
program that wrote a short while ago before I took over the Sailwave
development and at that time had no way of modifying Sailwave. It is
however a workable solution but now with my new role I can integrate it much
tighter with Sailwave and make it much nicer to use but that is going to
take a while as I’m still on a steep learning curve with the Sailwave source
and the Language but we are getting there slowly.

But I’m interested in any info you can give me as to how you would like to
see it develop. Any example of what you envisage doing would also be
useful.

Averaging over the last 4 races - What do you do if you have less than 4
races as an example. And how do you handle exception circumstances or
deliberate loosing to adjust handicap?

I think this type of solution where info from Sailwave is fed automatically
into Excel and then you supply the formula in Excel which calculates the new
rating and Excel automatically puts it back into Sailwave is the best until
a “Standard” is defined. With my new role I will make the integration much
slicker. If you haven’t already have a look at this

Details of the program are here

https://sites.google.com/site/eskdalesite/home/swph

Jon

On 2 December 2012 11:25, Rob Mortonrobmorton@ozemail.com.au wrote:

This is dear to my heart too.

Over the last number of years, we used to just look at the places in our
handicap races, and adjust them to try to get everyone finishing together.
With our handicap races, we start at different times, hopefully finishing at
the same time.

I have now taken this over and am trying to average the last 4 races
‘seconds behind winner’ (rounded to the nearest minute), to give all a new
handicap. I am doing this using an excel spreadsheet, manually and
calculating the handicap change for each boat. It is a good thing that we
have a small club!

Any ideas, Jon?

Rob Morton

Pambula NSW Australia

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of mooloolabayachtclub
Sent: Sunday, 2 Dec ember 2012 11:31
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: PHRF Handicaps

Thanks Mark. Will chase up Jon as don’t want to be doing manual handicapping
!!

TraceyJ

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.commailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com ,
Malcolm Osborne<malcolmo@…> wrote:

Sailewave per se does not do exactly what you are wanting, i.e. the
automatic updating of handicaps based on previous races. It can be done
manually with the aid of the BCR (back calculated rating, or rating to
win) figures produced by SW in each race for each contestant. These
figures can be averaged to arrive at a value for the next race.

But I believe that our new developer has c reated an add-on which will do

this - Jon?

regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield South Africa

On 2012/12/01 07:54, mooloolabayachtclub wrote:

Starting from scatch as a novice Sailwave user, I am failing to find
how to set up race results so that the PHRF handicap, which was used
for the first race result, is set-up so that each following race the
handicap is automatically modified based on the results of the boats
in the previous race. Is there, somewhere, a written guide on how to
set-up and run PHRF handicap racing with Sailwave ?

[mtownsend]

in the case of Portsmouth, PHRF and IRC the handicap number is calculated or invented prior to the start of the series and a competitor can choose to race with the given handicap. In the case of personal handicaps the race committee starts playing the role of the rating authority and transparency is necessary to ensure there is no perceived bias. You could describe the handicap adjustment process in the NOR with a statement such as “Personal handicaps will be adjusted on a race by race basis using the personal handicap feature of Sailwave with the following options enabled.”

···

---

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: pmbutterfield@msn.com
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:35:31 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: PHRF Handicaps

Py is actually like this. Look to old club numbers or trial numbers. You just invent them. I do py for cruisers where data is scarce. I assess what should be used for every race.

Mike b ij

Sent from my iPad mike butterfield

On 4 Dec 2012, at 09:49, “Art Engel” artengel123@earthlink.net wrote:

I don’t believe you can score except according to some “rule.” And, it
isn’t a “rule” unless it is written down and explained somewhere. For
Portsmouth or IRC, their websites explain how to do the scoring and they
have a list of handicaps so a competitor can look up the correct
handicap and check that the race was scored correctly.

If you are going to come up with new handicaps then I think you need to
explain how you did it. It is certainly OK to say “Handicaps are
completely arbitrary and generated at random by flipping coins” and that
would be sufficient IF THAT IS IN FACT HOW THE HANDICAPS ARE GENERATED.
But, I think if a club generates its own handicaps then it needs to
describe how it does that, completely and accurately.

If you cannot figure out how Sailwave generates “personal handicaps”
(which I don’t think can be done in certain circumstances, at least as
of now) then I don’t think they should be used. It just doesn’t “smell
right.” Not sure if I would grant redress as a PC member but it
certainly approaches that level, in my opinion. Scoring has to be
transparent and if you adjust handicaps as part of the scoring process
then I think that needs to be transparent also.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Art

On 12/4/2012 1:27 AM, Mike wrote:

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Art Engel<artengel123@…> wrote:

There seems to be no rhyme or reason to what Sailwave will
do so it cannot be written up for the SIs.

So don’t describe the handicap system in the SI’s ! IME, just a brief
description (e.g. Portsmouth Yardstick or Personal Handicap) in the NoR
works. IMHO, there’s no need to explain how the handicaps are
calculated…MikeLancing SC

[Gordon_Davies]

Ultimately the handicap system will be defined by the protest committee when somebody gets upset enough to request redress. The judges will base their decision on what is written in the NOR, SIs or any document that these texts refer to.

It is often worth asking the protest committee what they understand the race documents mean. Be prepared for a surprise.

Gordon

···

On 04/12/2012 09:49, Art Engel wrote:

I don't believe you can score except according to some "rule." And, it
isn't a "rule" unless it is written down and explained somewhere. For
Portsmouth or IRC, their websites explain how to do the scoring and they
have a list of handicaps so a competitor can look up the correct
handicap and check that the race was scored correctly.

If you are going to come up with new handicaps then I think you need to
explain how you did it. It is certainly OK to say "Handicaps are
completely arbitrary and generated at random by flipping coins" and that
would be sufficient IF THAT IS IN FACT HOW THE HANDICAPS ARE GENERATED.
But, I think if a club generates its own handicaps then it needs to
describe how it does that, completely and accurately.

If you cannot figure out how Sailwave generates "personal handicaps"
(which I don't think can be done in certain circumstances, at least as
of now) then I don't think they should be used. It just doesn't "smell
right." Not sure if I would grant redress as a PC member but it
certainly approaches that level, in my opinion. Scoring has to be
transparent and if you adjust handicaps as part of the scoring process
then I think that needs to be transparent also.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Art

On 12/4/2012 1:27 AM, Mike wrote:
>
> --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>, Art Engel<artengel123@...> wrote:
>> There seems to be no rhyme or reason to what Sailwave will
>> do so it cannot be written up for the SIs.
>>
>
> So don't describe the handicap system in the SI's ! IME, just a brief
> description (e.g. Portsmouth Yardstick or Personal Handicap) in the NoR
> works. IMHO, there's no need to explain how the handicaps are
> calculated.....MikeLancing SC
>

[Mike1]

Or just have the PH available to competitors prior to each race?

And anyway, since when have handicaps been ‘fair’? :lol:

Mike
Lancing SC

···

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Davies <gordondavies@…> wrote:

Ultimately the handicap system will be defined by the protest committee
when somebody gets upset enough to request redress.

[Gordon_Davies]

Which does not remove their right to request redress if they believe that the calculation is wrong.

Handicaps do not have to be fair - it is enough that they are calculated according to the rules.

Gordon

···

On 04/12/2012 16:31, Mike wrote:

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Davies <gordondavies@...> wrote:
>
> Ultimately the handicap system will be defined by the protest committee
> when somebody gets upset enough to request redress.

Or just have the PH available to competitors prior to each race?

And anyway, since when have handicaps been 'fair'? :lol:

Mike
Lancing SC

[Mike1]

Which is kind of my point: don’t have any published calculation rules…
Mike
Lancing SC

···

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Davies <gordondavies@…> wrote:

Which does not remove their right to request redress if they believe
that the calculation is wrong.

Handicaps do not have to be fair - it is enough that they are calculated
according to the rules.

[MikeB]

My understanding of py is that a rc may /should review handicaps during a regatta or series. Rya will have new si and nor recommendations soon on the the web page. I was part of a group reviewing them.

Mike b

···

Sent from my iPad mike butterfield

On 4 Dec 2012, at 14:18, “Mark Townsend” s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com wrote:

in the case of Portsmouth, PHRF and IRC the handicap number is calculated or invented prior to the start of the series and a competitor can choose to race with the given handicap. In the case of personal handicaps the race committee starts playing the role of the rating authority and transparency is necessary to ensure there is no perceived bias. You could describe the handicap adjustment process in the NOR with a statement such as “Personal handicaps will be adjusted on a race by race basis using the personal handicap feature of Sailwave with the following options enabled.”

---

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: pmbutterfield@msn.com
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:35:31 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: PHRF Handicaps

Py is actually like this. Look to old club numbers or trial numbers. You just invent them. I do py for cruisers where data is scarce. I assess what should be used for every race.

Mike b ij

Sent from my iPad mike butterfield

On 4 Dec 2012, at 09:49, “Art Engel” artengel123@earthlink.net wrote:

I don’t believe you can score except according to some “rule.” And, it
isn’t a “rule” unless it is written down and explained somewhere. For
Portsmouth or IRC, their websites explain how to do the scoring and they
have a list of handicaps so a competitor can look up the correct
handicap and check that the race was scored correctly.

If you are going to come up with new handicaps then I think you need to
explain how you did it. It is certainly OK to say “Handicaps are
completely arbitrary and generated at random by flipping coins” and that
would be sufficient IF THAT IS IN FACT HOW THE HANDICAPS ARE GENERATED.
But, I think if a club generates its own handicaps then it needs to
describe how it does that, completely and accurately.

If you cannot figure out how Sailwave generates “personal handicaps”
(which I don’t think can be done in certain circumstances, at least as
of now) then I don’t think they should be used. It just doesn’t “smell
right.” Not sure if I would grant redress as a PC member but it
certainly approaches that level, in my opinion. Scoring has to be
transparent and if you adjust handicaps as part of the scoring process
then I think that needs to be transparent also.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Art

On 12/4/2012 1:27 AM, Mike wrote:

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Art Engel<artengel123@…> wrote:

There seems to be no rhyme or reason to what Sailwave will
do so it cannot be written up for the SIs.

So don’t describe the handicap system in the SI’s ! IME, just a brief
description (e.g. Portsmouth Yardstick or Personal Handicap) in the NoR
works. IMHO, there’s no need to explain how the handicaps are
calculated…MikeLancing SC

[Gordon_Davies]

seems they are going to have a whole new handicap system for cruisers!

Gordon

···

On 04/12/2012 19:45, Patricia Butterfield wrote:

My understanding of py is that a rc may /should review handicaps during a regatta or series. Rya will have new si and nor recommendations soon on the the web page. I was part of a group reviewing them.

Mike b

Sent from my iPad mike butterfield

On 4 Dec 2012, at 14:18, "Mark Townsend" <s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com > <mailto:s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com>> wrote:

in the case of Portsmouth, PHRF and IRC the handicap number is calculated or invented prior to the start of the series and a competitor can choose to race with the given handicap. In the case of personal handicaps the race committee starts playing the role of the rating authority and transparency is necessary to ensure there is no perceived bias. You could describe the handicap adjustment process in the NOR with a statement such as "Personal handicaps will be adjusted on a race by race basis using the personal handicap feature of Sailwave with the following options enabled."

------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
From: pmbutterfield@msn.com <mailto:pmbutterfield@msn.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:35:31 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: PHRF Handicaps

Py is actually like this. Look to old club numbers or trial numbers. You just invent them. I do py for cruisers where data is scarce. I assess what should be used for every race.

Mike b ij

Sent from my iPad mike butterfield

On 4 Dec 2012, at 09:49, "Art Engel" <artengel123@earthlink.net >> <mailto:artengel123@earthlink.net>> wrote:

    I don't believe you can score except according to some "rule."
    And, it
    isn't a "rule" unless it is written down and explained somewhere.
    For
    Portsmouth or IRC, their websites explain how to do the scoring
    and they
    have a list of handicaps so a competitor can look up the correct
    handicap and check that the race was scored correctly.

    If you are going to come up with new handicaps then I think you
    need to
    explain how you did it. It is certainly OK to say "Handicaps are
    completely arbitrary and generated at random by flipping coins"
    and that
    would be sufficient IF THAT IS IN FACT HOW THE HANDICAPS ARE
    GENERATED.
    But, I think if a club generates its own handicaps then it needs to
    describe how it does that, completely and accurately.

    If you cannot figure out how Sailwave generates "personal handicaps"
    (which I don't think can be done in certain circumstances, at
    least as
    of now) then I don't think they should be used. It just doesn't
    "smell
    right." Not sure if I would grant redress as a PC member but it
    certainly approaches that level, in my opinion. Scoring has to be
    transparent and if you adjust handicaps as part of the scoring
    process
    then I think that needs to be transparent also.

    Just my 2 cents worth.

    Art

    On 12/4/2012 1:27 AM, Mike wrote:
    >
    > --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com
    <mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>, Art Engel<artengel123@...>
    wrote:
    >> There seems to be no rhyme or reason to what Sailwave will
    >> do so it cannot be written up for the SIs.
    >>
    >
    > So don't describe the handicap system in the SI's ! IME, just a
    brief
    > description (e.g. Portsmouth Yardstick or Personal Handicap) in
    the NoR
    > works. IMHO, there's no need to explain how the handicaps are
    > calculated.....MikeLancing SC
    >

[Art_Engel2]

I think that would satisfy the strict requirements of the rules. However, I personally wouldn't want to use a system I cannot easily audit and fully explain in writing. One reason is that I as a competitor would not want to sail under such a system and it doesn't seem reasonable to expect others to do so if I wouldn't.

Competitors may not complain but I can guarantee you that they notice when stuff doesn't seem right or cannot be verified. The result is that they lose confidence in the race committee.

Art

···

On 12/4/2012 6:18 AM, Mark Townsend wrote:

in the case of Portsmouth, PHRF and IRC the handicap number is calculated or invented prior to the start of the series and a competitor can choose to race with the given handicap. In the case of personal handicaps the race committee starts playing the role of the rating authority and transparency is necessary to ensure there is no perceived bias. You could describe the handicap adjustment process in the NOR with a statement such as "Personal handicaps will be adjusted on a race by race basis using the personal handicap feature of Sailwave with the following options enabled."

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: pmbutterfield@msn.com
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:35:31 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: PHRF Handicaps

       Py is actually like this. Look to old club numbers or trial numbers. You just invent them. I do py for cruisers where data is scarce. I assess what should be used for every race.
Mike b ij

Sent from my iPad mike butterfield

On 4 Dec 2012, at 09:49, "Art Engel"<artengel123@earthlink.net> wrote:

       I don't believe you can score except according to some "rule." And, it

isn't a "rule" unless it is written down and explained somewhere. For

Portsmouth or IRC, their websites explain how to do the scoring and they

have a list of handicaps so a competitor can look up the correct

handicap and check that the race was scored correctly.

If you are going to come up with new handicaps then I think you need to

explain how you did it. It is certainly OK to say "Handicaps are

completely arbitrary and generated at random by flipping coins" and that

would be sufficient IF THAT IS IN FACT HOW THE HANDICAPS ARE GENERATED.

But, I think if a club generates its own handicaps then it needs to

describe how it does that, completely and accurately.

If you cannot figure out how Sailwave generates "personal handicaps"

(which I don't think can be done in certain circumstances, at least as

of now) then I don't think they should be used. It just doesn't "smell

right." Not sure if I would grant redress as a PC member but it

certainly approaches that level, in my opinion. Scoring has to be

transparent and if you adjust handicaps as part of the scoring process

then I think that needs to be transparent also.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Art

On 12/4/2012 1:27 AM, Mike wrote:

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Art Engel<artengel123@...> wrote:

There seems to be no rhyme or reason to what Sailwave will

do so it cannot be written up for the SIs.

So don't describe the handicap system in the SI's ! IME, just a brief

description (e.g. Portsmouth Yardstick or Personal Handicap) in the NoR

works. IMHO, there's no need to explain how the handicaps are

calculated.....MikeLancing SC

[Art_Engel2]

I'm sure the IRC people might take great exception to the idea that their handicaps are not "fair." Everyone complains about handicaps as the reason why they didn't win even though a quick mathematical analysis will show that handicaps are not THAT important to results. That is human psychology and isn't going to change.

Art

···

On 12/4/2012 8:31 AM, Mike wrote:

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Davies<gordondavies@...> wrote:

Ultimately the handicap system will be defined by the protest

committee

when somebody gets upset enough to request redress.

Or just have the PH available to competitors prior to each race?

And anyway, since when have handicaps been 'fair'? :lol:

Mike
Lancing SC

[MikeB]

I started racing in Dubai. Boats measured sat started to race Monday. Irc office opens during race and by the end of race half the fleet have a new rating. The protests took most of the week.

One boat measured a shorter pole to get a better rating, he ended up with a worse one by I min per hour. They changed the black box way they dealt with the internal furniture. The boat lost the seriese on this and the 80ft boat on this rating lost most of it,s value.

···

Sent from my iPad mike butterfield

On 4 Dec 2012, at 21:07, “Art Engel” artengel123@earthlink.net wrote:

I’m sure the IRC people might take great exception to the idea that
their handicaps are not “fair.” Everyone complains about handicaps as
the reason why they didn’t win even though a quick mathematical analysis
will show that handicaps are not THAT important to results. That is
human psychology and isn’t going to change.

Art

On 12/4/2012 8:31 AM, Mike wrote:

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Davies<gordondavies@…> wrote:

Ultimately the handicap system will be defined by the protest
committee
when somebody gets upset enough to request redress.

Or just have the PH available to competitors prior to each race?

And anyway, since when have handicaps been ‘fair’? :lol:

Mike
Lancing SC

[Art_Engel2]

Locally (in my harbor only, ~7 clubs) we have two systems for handicapping boats: PHRF and "Cruising" handicaps.

PHRF is a straight system where a handicapping committee meets and tries to analyze the potential speed performance of a boat, independent of crew skill or the actual condition of that boat. The votes are taken in secret but your handicap probably won't change more than once in 5-10 years.

"Cruising" takes the PHRF handicaps and makes some adjustments based on boat condition (like all-Dacron sails, or anchor chain stowed in bow, or roller-furling main). Some "Cruising" races also adjust the handicap between races based on performance in the last race (we generally call it "golf" or "skipper" handicapping but Sailwave calls it "personal handicaps").

The boats in the "Cruising" fleet are self-designated. So, we have the same model of boats in the PHRF racing fleets and in the "Cruising" fleet. The boats in the "Cruising" fleet seem willing to buy new high-tech sails but unwilling to learn tactics or rules. As far as many of us can see, most of the boats in the "Cruising" fleet are there so they can get a trophy without having to be a "good" sailor (meaning that they are better than the competition but really not very good on an absolute scale). But, the "Cruising" concept serves to provide a place for more people to come out and sail and so we think it is a good thing in general.

Art

···

On 12/4/2012 1:02 PM, Gordon Davies wrote:

seems they are going to have a whole new handicap system for cruisers!

Gordon

On 04/12/2012 19:45, Patricia Butterfield wrote:

My understanding of py is that a rc may /should review handicaps
during a regatta or series. Rya will have new si and nor
recommendations soon on the the web page. I was part of a group
reviewing them.

Mike b

Sent from my iPad mike butterfield

On 4 Dec 2012, at 14:18, "Mark Townsend" <s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com >> <mailto:s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com>> wrote:

in the case of Portsmouth, PHRF and IRC the handicap number is
calculated or invented prior to the start of the series and a
competitor can choose to race with the given handicap. In the case of
personal handicaps the race committee starts playing the role of the
rating authority and transparency is necessary to ensure there is no
perceived bias. You could describe the handicap adjustment process in
the NOR with a statement such as "Personal handicaps will be adjusted
on a race by race basis using the personal handicap feature of
Sailwave with the following options enabled."

------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
From: pmbutterfield@msn.com <mailto:pmbutterfield@msn.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:35:31 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: PHRF Handicaps

Py is actually like this. Look to old club numbers or trial numbers.
You just invent them. I do py for cruisers where data is scarce. I
assess what should be used for every race.

Mike b ij

Sent from my iPad mike butterfield

On 4 Dec 2012, at 09:49, "Art Engel" <artengel123@earthlink.net >>> <mailto:artengel123@earthlink.net>> wrote:

I don't believe you can score except according to some "rule."
And, it
isn't a "rule" unless it is written down and explained somewhere.
For
Portsmouth or IRC, their websites explain how to do the scoring
and they
have a list of handicaps so a competitor can look up the correct
handicap and check that the race was scored correctly.

If you are going to come up with new handicaps then I think you
need to
explain how you did it. It is certainly OK to say "Handicaps are
completely arbitrary and generated at random by flipping coins"
and that
would be sufficient IF THAT IS IN FACT HOW THE HANDICAPS ARE
GENERATED.
But, I think if a club generates its own handicaps then it needs to
describe how it does that, completely and accurately.

If you cannot figure out how Sailwave generates "personal handicaps"
(which I don't think can be done in certain circumstances, at
least as
of now) then I don't think they should be used. It just doesn't
"smell
right." Not sure if I would grant redress as a PC member but it
certainly approaches that level, in my opinion. Scoring has to be
transparent and if you adjust handicaps as part of the scoring
process
then I think that needs to be transparent also.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Art

On 12/4/2012 1:27 AM, Mike wrote:
>
> --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>, Art Engel<artengel123@...>
wrote:
>> There seems to be no rhyme or reason to what Sailwave will
>> do so it cannot be written up for the SIs.
>>
>
> So don't describe the handicap system in the SI's ! IME, just a
brief
> description (e.g. Portsmouth Yardstick or Personal Handicap) in
the NoR
> works. IMHO, there's no need to explain how the handicaps are
> calculated.....MikeLancing SC
>

[Huw2]

An official RYA press release on Y&Y

Full details next year but mentions working with leading scoring

programs
“”
Looks like Jon will have some work to do!

···

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/167014/Change-of-tack-for-cruiser-racing

•  The RYA have accumulated a large amount of boat measurement data
  

to be able to publish a significant base list and will be working
with a number of scoring programs to make sure that any
adjustments required are able to be incorporated before the
launch.*

  On 04/12/2012 21:02, Gordon Davies

wrote:

          seems they are going to have a

whole new handicap system for cruisers!

          Gordon

          On 04/12/2012 19:45, Patricia Butterfield wrote:

              My understanding of py is that a rc may /should

review handicaps during a regatta or series. Rya will
have new si and nor recommendations soon on the the
web page. I was part of a group reviewing them.

Mike b

              Sent from my iPad mike butterfield

              On 4 Dec 2012, at 14:18, "Mark Townsend" <s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com
              >

wrote:

                    in the case of Portsmouth, PHRF and

IRC the handicap number is calculated or
invented prior to the start of the series and a
competitor can choose to race with the given
handicap. In the case of personal handicaps the
race committee starts playing the role of the
rating authority and transparency is necessary
to ensure there is no perceived bias. You could
describe the handicap adjustment process in the
NOR with a statement such as “Personal handicaps
will be adjusted on a race by race basis using
the personal handicap feature of Sailwave with
the following options enabled.”

---

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

                    From: pmbutterfield@msn.com

                    Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:35:31 +0000

                    Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: PHRF Handicaps



                     
                            Py is actually like this. Look to old

club numbers or trial numbers. You just
invent them. I do py for cruisers where
data is scarce. I assess what should be
used for every race.

Mike b ij

                            Sent from my iPad mike butterfield

                            On 4 Dec 2012, at 09:49, "Art Engel"

<artengel123@earthlink.net
>
wrote:

                                  I don't believe you can score

except according to some “rule.”
And, it
isn’t a “rule” unless it is
written down and explained
somewhere. For
Portsmouth or IRC, their websites
explain how to do the scoring and
they
have a list of handicaps so a
competitor can look up the correct

                                  handicap and check that the race

was scored correctly.

                                  If you are going to come up with

new handicaps then I think you
need to
explain how you did it. It is
certainly OK to say "Handicaps are

                                  completely arbitrary and generated

at random by flipping coins" and
that
would be sufficient IF THAT IS IN
FACT HOW THE HANDICAPS ARE
GENERATED.
But, I think if a club generates
its own handicaps then it needs to

                                  describe how it does that,

completely and accurately.

                                  If you cannot figure out how

Sailwave generates “personal
handicaps”
(which I don’t think can be done
in certain circumstances, at least
as
of now) then I don’t think they
should be used. It just doesn’t
“smell
right.” Not sure if I would grant
redress as a PC member but it
certainly approaches that level,
in my opinion. Scoring has to be
transparent and if you adjust
handicaps as part of the scoring
process
then I think that needs to be
transparent also.

                                  Just my 2 cents worth.

                                  Art

                                  On 12/4/2012 1:27 AM, Mike wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com                                      ,

Art Engel
wrote:

There seems to be no
rhyme or reason to what Sailwave
will

do so it cannot be
written up for the SIs.

So don’t describe the
handicap system in the SI’s ! IME,
just a brief
description (e.g. Portsmouth
Yardstick or Personal Handicap) in
the NoR
works. IMHO, there’s no need
to explain how the handicaps are
calculated…MikeLancing SC

<artengel123@…>

[Art_Engel2]

Jon,

Will come up with one or more examples of the problem and send it privately (I know I have one, I just have to dig through 50 or so test files to find it).

Excel vs Open Office - I too would prefer that all macros be suitable for both. However, I have been unable to convert my own Excel macros to Open Office as there is virtually no documentation or user community for Open Office. Excel has literally hundreds of websites dedicated to VBA Excel programming that can help with examples and forums. I have used those extensively for research over the years. Since OO has so few resources I don't think it is really a viable option to Excel for macro programming at this time.

Assigning Handicaps vs. Changing Handicaps - I have no problems with how systems like IRC come up with their handicaps. They say "we use a secret formula that we won't tell you." That is fine as you know the rating before you start a series. Changing after each race (so-called "golf" or "skipper" handicapping or "personal handicaps") is different in my mind as the new handicap is part of the scoring process (not independent of it as IRC or ORR or HPR would be). I wouldn't use a system I cannot describe to a competitor and as long as I can describe it I would write it down and give it to competitors (either directly in the SIs as we do now or in some ancillary document).

Sail100 - I haven't used it but when I went to their website some months ago I thought it said it was simply VBA in Excel. I would have thought that the code would be viewable for audit purposes, though it might require password-breaking software to do it. I'll take a look at that as it seemed the only option for scoring a long series of individual races. We currently have a custom program for that but if we ever want to switch from that Sail100 seemed to be the recommended choice.

Art

···

On 12/4/2012 2:47 AM, JON wrote:

Hi Art,
I briefly tested Jon's "outside Sailwave" solution and it is pretty
decent. Most importantly, it allows customization of the calculation
formula. The only downside is it is in a separate program and requires
Excel to work.
Thanks for testing it
Jon - I don't see a lot of incentive to put this into Sailwave although
I know a lot of people want it. The problem is they all want something
different. Your "outside" solution works quite well, I believe. The
problem with putting it into Sailwave is it only makes sense if you can
allow for the myriad of possible systems, and that seems like far more
work then the potential benefit would justify
I agree the big problem is that everyone wants something different -
Maybe someday there will be a standard and I can build it in. I think
the outside solution works at the moment but I am working on having it
tightly integrated so that it will work almost as if it is inside
Sailwave - changes that you make in the outside program will immediately
be reflected in Sailwave.Excel is an excellent product and something
that many people can use. I know Gordon and some others would like to
use OpenOffice but with Excel I can automatically control it and hence
feed and read the data from it automatically as well. If we can get the
formula used to a few commands then I could implement the worksheet in
the external app and not require Excel or OpenOffice but I guess that is
the next stage after the tight integration, and some feedback from users
on the formula they need.
Glitch - Some time ago Colin attempted to allow the use of automatic
adjustments from the last race based on boats other than the 1st-place
boat. The programming got messed up and that works for the 1st-place and
last-place boat but not for the boats in between. If you could fix that
it is probably worthwhile
Art - It's not something I have ever needed before so have never used
it. If you could email a simple file and instructions on how to produce
the issue I will fix it.
What does matter is the
calculation is always the same. Currently, if you put in 50% Sailwave
sometimes uses the middle of odd-sized fleets and sometimes uses the
boat before the middle boat. And, if you have an even-sized fleet
Sailwave sometimes uses the first and sometimes the second of the two
middle boats. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to what Sailwave will
do so it cannot be written up for the SIs.
Again if you could supply me a simple file and any instructions I will
tell you what rules Sailwave is using and then we can agree which ones
to make it use.
I don't believe you can score except according to some "rule." And, it
isn't a "rule" unless it is written down and explained somewhere. For
Portsmouth or IRC, their websites explain how to do the scoring and they
have a list of handicaps so a competitor can look up the correct
handicap and check that the race was scored correctly.
Scoring has to be
transparent and if you adjust handicaps as part of the scoring process
then I think that needs to be transparent also.
Art - I totally agree with you on this one which is why I rather like
the outside Sailwave solution in that the calculation is available for
anyone to see and there is an audit trail of the calculation.
Interestingly last year I used my Outside Sailwave solution to rescore a
major regatta that had Personal Handicaps and was scored using Sail100.
The results were close but they were not identical. But I could check
the workings of mine but could not check the Sail100 as it was built
into the program. I did leave a message at the time to the author but I
didn't get a response.
Jon

[Art_Engel2]

My comment about handicaps was aimed at club racing (90%+ of racing), not championship racing (<10% or racing). In club racing I find that most of the people who complain are so far back that no reasonable change in the handicap would make any difference in their series standings. In championship racing the skill levels are comparable and so small handicap rating changes can make a significant difference.

I am surprised (even shocked) to find that IRC will allow the change of a handicap rating during the course of a regatta. I don't think I'd be willing to sail in such an event. I would be concerned that my handicap would be hit if I started to win. That isn't fair. And, since IRC is a secret rule you don't really know how or why a handicap rating is being changed. Your example of a shorter spinnaker pole (if true) is a great example of the problem. We all understand that a shorter or longer pole makes some difference, although not very much. But, I don't believe anyone would think going shorter would be faster. And, a change of 1 min/hour is comparable to going from 1.000 to 1.017, a change of 0.017! [For PHRF users, that is comparable to a 10-11 sec/mile hit!]

IRC is not particularly popular in the US and the number of boats with certificates has started dropping rapidly in the last couple of years (from 470 boats in 2010 to a projected 340 in 2012). Based on your description of what can happen I wouldn't be surprised to see it virtually disappearing from the US in a year or two.

The newest rule in the US is the HPR (High Performance Rule), which like IMS is an open rule (meaning the formulas for calculation are all public). It doesn't have more than a handful of boats yet (not sure its been going even 12 months yet). ORR (Offshore Racing Rule) is the other measurement rule here in the US and like IRC is a secret rule. But, I believe the ORR class rules includes a provision that you may not change your certificate during the course of a regatta. ORR will have 650+ in 2012.

Art

···

On 12/4/2012 1:17 PM, Patricia Butterfield wrote:

I started racing in Dubai. Boats measured sat started to race Monday. Irc office opens during race and by the end of race half the fleet have a new rating. The protests took most of the week.

One boat measured a shorter pole to get a better rating, he ended up with a worse one by I min per hour. They changed the black box way they dealt with the internal furniture. The boat lost the seriese on this and the 80ft boat on this rating lost most of it,s value.

Sent from my iPad mike butterfield

On 4 Dec 2012, at 21:07, "Art Engel"<artengel123@earthlink.net> wrote:

I'm sure the IRC people might take great exception to the idea that
their handicaps are not "fair." Everyone complains about handicaps as
the reason why they didn't win even though a quick mathematical analysis
will show that handicaps are not THAT important to results. That is
human psychology and isn't going to change.

Art

On 12/4/2012 8:31 AM, Mike wrote:

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Davies<gordondavies@...> wrote:

Ultimately the handicap system will be defined by the protest

committee

when somebody gets upset enough to request redress.

Or just have the PH available to competitors prior to each race?

And anyway, since when have handicaps been 'fair'? :lol:

Mike
Lancing SC

[MikeB]

Regatta in Ireland I do now, have a cut off date for changes to irc except for mistakes.

···

Sent from my iPad mike butterfield

On 4 Dec 2012, at 22:56, “Art Engel” artengel123@earthlink.net wrote:

My comment about handicaps was aimed at club racing (90%+ of racing),
not championship racing (<10% or racing). In club racing I find that
most of the people who complain are so far back that no reasonable
change in the handicap would make any difference in their series
standings. In championship racing the skill levels are comparable and so
small handicap rating changes can make a significant difference.

I am surprised (even shocked) to find that IRC will allow the change of
a handicap rating during the course of a regatta. I don’t think I’d be
willing to sail in such an event. I would be concerned that my handicap
would be hit if I started to win. That isn’t fair. And, since IRC is a
secret rule you don’t really know how or why a handicap rating is being
changed. Your example of a shorter spinnaker pole (if true) is a great
example of the problem. We all understand that a shorter or longer pole
makes some difference, although not very much. But, I don’t believe
anyone would think going shorter would be faster. And, a change of 1
min/hour is comparable to going from 1.000 to 1.017, a change of 0.017!
[For PHRF users, that is comparable to a 10-11 sec/mile hit!]

IRC is not particularly popular in the US and the number of boats with
certificates has started dropping rapidly in the last couple of years
(from 470 boats in 2010 to a projected 340 in 2012). Based on your
description of what can happen I wouldn’t be surprised to see it
virtually disappearing from the US in a year or two.

The newest rule in the US is the HPR (High Performance Rule), which like
IMS is an open rule (meaning the formulas for calculation are all
public). It doesn’t have more than a handful of boats yet (not sure its
been going even 12 months yet). ORR (Offshore Racing Rule) is the other
measurement rule here in the US and like IRC is a secret rule. But, I
believe the ORR class rules includes a provision that you may not change
your certificate during the course of a regatta. ORR will have 650+ in 2012.

Art

On 12/4/2012 1:17 PM, Patricia Butterfield wrote:

I started racing in Dubai. Boats measured sat started to race Monday. Irc office opens during race and by the end of race half the fleet have a new rating. The protests took most of the week.

One boat measured a shorter pole to get a better rating, he ended up with a worse one by I min per hour. They changed the black box way they dealt with the internal furniture. The boat lost the seriese on this and the 80ft boat on this rating lost most of it,s value.

Sent from my iPad mike butterfield

On 4 Dec 2012, at 21:07, "Art Engel"artengel123@earthlink.net wrote:

I’m sure the IRC people might take great exception to the idea that
their handicaps are not “fair.” Everyone complains about handicaps as
the reason why they didn’t win even though a quick mathematical analysis
will show that handicaps are not THAT important to results. That is
human psychology and isn’t going to change.

Art

On 12/4/2012 8:31 AM, Mike wrote:

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Davies<gordondavies@…> wrote:

Ultimately the handicap system will be defined by the protest
committee
when somebody gets upset enough to request redress.

Or just have the PH available to competitors prior to each race?

And anyway, since when have handicaps been ‘fair’? :lol:

Mike
Lancing SC