Points for racing

Bit of a side issue and I'm sure Colin won't want to programme up sailwave to incorporate it but looking at the results of the 1956 olympic results they used a really weird points system. With the collective brains in this forum, and maybe someone who was alive then, anyone have any idea how points were awarded in those days???

Event
Finn Class Country Points
Paul Elvström, DEN 7509
  André Nelis, BEL 6254
  John Marvin, USA 5953

http://www.sharpie.org.uk/html/1956olympics.html

cheeers and goood sailing

Simon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Simon,

The 1956 Olympics were based in Melbourne and the yachting events
were run out of the Royal Melbourne Yacht Squadron. I happen to be
a member there so I'll ask the race directors to see if they can
answer your question.

By the way, the original scoreboard is still up in the Members' Bar.

Regards

Mike Gill
Ocean Racing Club of Victoria
www.orcv.org.au

Bit of a side issue and I'm sure Colin won't want to programme up

sailwave to incorporate it but looking at the results of the 1956
olympic results they used a really weird points system. With the
collective brains in this forum, and maybe someone who was alive
then, anyone have any idea how points were awarded in those days???

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "simon smith" <simon@s...> wrote:

Event
Finn Class Country Points
Paul Elvström, DEN 7509
  André Nelis, BEL 6254
  John Marvin, USA 5953

http://www.sharpie.org.uk/html/1956olympics.html

cheeers and goood sailing

Simon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Simon,

I'm not sure how much this will help you but we've worked out how
the Officials in the 1956 Melbourne olympics did it and we think we
know why, although some of the details seem a bit odd.

I've uploaded an excel spreadsheet to the files section of the
groups which has the figures from the Australian Yachting Federation
archives. Frankly, it didn't tell us how they can up with exactly
those numbers so, after using some numberical analysis techniques,
we worked out some formulae for the numbers.

Before I give you those, it is worth pointing out the "why" of
this. The High Point scoring system prevalent in those days would
not have indicated the difficulty of getting from 3rd to 1st as
compared as getting from 20th to 18th. Also, if there is a race
with 20 boats, 1st place for that should get more than 1st for a
race of 5 boats. We believe that this system was an attempt to
factor that increasing difficulty in.

They used a logarithmic approach where the points increased more the
higher up the placings you went.

Personally, I reckon someone had too much time on their hands.

Now in 1956, someone would have put this down onto a table like the
Cox-Sprague tables. We calculated it instead.

To work out the points for first place, you use the following
formula:

   434.2 * logn(number of competitors) + 101

Then for each of the other places, you calculate according to the
formula:

   -434.2 * logn(placing) + (points for 1st place)

When we calculated all these figures out, we noticed that there was
a discrepancy for the Sharpie class for 1st place. This turned out
to be a discrepancy between the "official" records in Sydney and
RMYS's club archives in Melbourne. Since we still have the official
board up in the bar we checked - the Sydney records are wrong.

So, you managed to stir up a fair bit of interest here on that so
thanks very much. I believe there will be an article from RMYS's
historian published in their newsletter soon.

The only thing we can't work out is why use a "magic number" of
434.2? That bit makes absolutely no sense to us.

Mike Gill
Ocean Racing Club of Victoria
www.orcv.org.au

Bit of a side issue and I'm sure Colin won't want to programme up

sailwave to incorporate it but looking at the results of the 1956
olympic results they used a really weird points system. With the
collective brains in this forum, and maybe someone who was alive
then, anyone have any idea how points were awarded in those days???

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "simon smith" <simon@s...> wrote:

Event
Finn Class Country Points
Paul Elvström, DEN 7509
  André Nelis, BEL 6254
  John Marvin, USA 5953

http://www.sharpie.org.uk/html/1956olympics.html

cheeers and goood sailing

Simon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Mike,

The only thing we can't work out is why use a "magic number" of
434.2? That bit makes absolutely no sense to us.

If you use base 10 logs it probably cleans up because log(x)/ln(x) = 0.4342.

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave

···

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Colin,

Thanks for that - been a while since I used logs.

The formula for first place works out to be:

  (log(number of competitors) * 1000) + 101

The formula for the points for the other places is:

  point for 1st place - (log(place) * 1000)

Which makes a lot more sense.

Mike Gill
Ocean Racing Club of Victoria
http://www.orcv.org.au

Hi Mike,

> The only thing we can't work out is why use a "magic number" of
> 434.2? That bit makes absolutely no sense to us.

If you use base 10 logs it probably cleans up because log(x)/ln(x)

= 0.4342.

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Colin Jenkins" <colin@s...> wrote:

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave

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The brains trust of the SUG never ceases to amaze me... thanks Mike for your detective work... very interesting. Is there a case for Colin coding up sailwave to use this system, gotta be simpler than 1, 2, 3, 4......!

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Ocean Racing Club of Victoria Rudder Cup
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 9:25 AM
  Subject: [sailwave] Re: Points for racing

  Colin,

  Thanks for that - been a while since I used logs.

  The formula for first place works out to be:

    (log(number of competitors) * 1000) + 101

  The formula for the points for the other places is:

    point for 1st place - (log(place) * 1000)

  Which makes a lot more sense.

  Mike Gill
  Ocean Racing Club of Victoria
  http://www.orcv.org.au

  --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Colin Jenkins" <colin@s...> wrote:
  > Hi Mike,
  >
  > > The only thing we can't work out is why use a "magic number" of
  > > 434.2? That bit makes absolutely no sense to us.
  >
  > If you use base 10 logs it probably cleans up because log(x)/ln(x)
  = 0.4342.
  >
  > Regards,
  > Colin
  > www.sailwave
  >
  > ---
  > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
  > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
  > Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 24/07/2003

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Mike,

I think it simplifies some more now since log(1) = 0.

N=Num competitors
P=Place in race

Points = 1000 * log(N/P) + 101

For all places (including 1st)

Is this a Cox-Sprague type thing...?

Regards,
Colin

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Ocean Racing Club of Victoria Rudder Cup
[mailto:rudder_cup@orcv.org.au]
Sent: 01 August 2003 09:26
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Points for racing

Colin,

Thanks for that - been a while since I used logs.

The formula for first place works out to be:

  (log(number of competitors) * 1000) + 101

The formula for the points for the other places is:

  point for 1st place - (log(place) * 1000)

Which makes a lot more sense.

Mike Gill
Ocean Racing Club of Victoria
http://www.orcv.org.au

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Colin Jenkins" <colin@s...> wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> > The only thing we can't work out is why use a "magic number" of
> > 434.2? That bit makes absolutely no sense to us.
>
> If you use base 10 logs it probably cleans up because log(x)/ln(x)
= 0.4342.
>
> Regards,
> Colin
> www.sailwave
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 24/07/2003

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Hi Mike/Simon,

An amazing coincidence... it seems your points system has a name and is
alive and well in various parts of Europe:-

···

-----------
SUBJECT: AUSTRIAN SCORING SYSTEM

Dear Colin,

Could you include the Austrian Scoring System in the
Sailwave software. This points system is used in the
North Sea Championship of Belgium also in the Netherlant�s,
Germany,� and this for the cruisers races with rating and
corrected time. We apply the "Austrian Scoring System" whose
the following formula is used.

(101 + 1000 * (LOG(competitors) � LOG(place))) * coefficient of the race

Coefficient of the races:
  1.75 long distance race
  1.0 local race

Looking for a replay and congratulations for your
efficient software,

Warmest regards from Belgium.
Henry ANTOINE
Race Officer NRO
------------

So, yes Simon, it looks like I will be building it in after all... :slight_smile:

Amazing.

CJ

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Please dont keep sending me all these emails

Ken

···

-----Original Message-----
  From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
  Sent: 02 August 2003 09:31
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Points for racing

  Hi Mike/Simon,

  An amazing coincidence... it seems your points system has a name and is
  alive and well in various parts of Europe:-

  -----------
  SUBJECT: AUSTRIAN SCORING SYSTEM

  Dear Colin,

  Could you include the Austrian Scoring System in the
  Sailwave software. This points system is used in the
  North Sea Championship of Belgium also in the Netherlant’s,
  Germany,… and this for the cruisers races with rating and
  corrected time. We apply the "Austrian Scoring System" whose
  the following formula is used.

  (101 + 1000 * (LOG(competitors) – LOG(place))) * coefficient of the race

  Coefficient of the races:
    1.75 long distance race
    1.0 local race

  Looking for a replay and congratulations for your
  efficient software,

  Warmest regards from Belgium.
  Henry ANTOINE
  Race Officer NRO
  ------------

  So, yes Simon, it looks like I will be building it in after all... :slight_smile:

  Amazing.

  CJ

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ken, and anyone else, a timely reminder...

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
mailto:sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Ken Cheney
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 12:18 AM
  Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Points for racing

  Please dont keep sending me all these emails

  Ken
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
    Sent: 02 August 2003 09:31
    To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Points for racing

    Hi Mike/Simon,

    An amazing coincidence... it seems your points system has a name and is
    alive and well in various parts of Europe:-

    -----------
    SUBJECT: AUSTRIAN SCORING SYSTEM

    Dear Colin,

    Could you include the Austrian Scoring System in the
    Sailwave software. This points system is used in the
    North Sea Championship of Belgium also in the Netherlant's,
    Germany,. and this for the cruisers races with rating and
    corrected time. We apply the "Austrian Scoring System" whose
    the following formula is used.

    (101 + 1000 * (LOG(competitors) - LOG(place))) * coefficient of the race

    Coefficient of the races:
      1.75 long distance race
      1.0 local race

    Looking for a replay and congratulations for your
    efficient software,

    Warmest regards from Belgium.
    Henry ANTOINE
    Race Officer NRO
    ------------

    So, yes Simon, it looks like I will be building it in after all... :slight_smile:

    Amazing.

    CJ

    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    Version: 6.0.505 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 30/07/2003

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