In the context of a club using a positive points scoring system.
Should boats be awarded points for starting a race but not finishing?
Under our current system a DNF in awarded the same points as a DNS.
Hardly fair! Does anybody else award points for a DNF, and what
method do you use in Sailwave?
thanks
About the method, no problem with SW, use Scoring Systems > tab __/ Ranking codes \__ > select the code you want to change and edit the rule.
I agree that a DNS is not a DNF, but unless for DNC in a series lasting longer than a regatta, ISAF RRS don't propose a different treatment. You could decide OCS is number of boats in the series + 0, DNF +1, RAF +1, DSQ +2, DNS +3.
Try to be logical and find the right penalty for ALL codes in the list.
Good luck...
Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Fletcher" <fletch@uqconnect.net>
To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:43 AM
Subject: [sailwave] Points Ssytems
In the context of a club using a positive points scoring system.
Should boats be awarded points for starting a race but not finishing?
Under our current system a DNF in awarded the same points as a DNS.
Hardly fair! Does anybody else award points for a DNF, and what
method do you use in Sailwave?thanks
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With a Low Points system, we've found that it's best to modify the standard RRS scoring to score DNF as 2 more than then number of boats scored as finishing - this modification being made in order to be consistent with the other modification we make which is to score boats failing to finish within x minutes of the winning boat as DNF.
The reasoning behind this is that if the wind dies after a few boats have finished, you have the choice of either abandoning the race and failing to reward those boats who managed to sneak home in time, or letting the results stand and having all the other boats either thrown out of contention or using up their discard and so having to carry other bad scores. With our modification, a race in which only a few boats manage to finish is still part of the series, but the winning boats only get a small reward for doing so with the result that the series is not too badly distorted.
I would have thought that a similar principle could be applied to a high points system: award points for DNF equivalent to the the finishing position two more than the number of boats scored as finishing. Note that it is two more, rather than one more, so that there is some penalty for failing to finish (or, to put it another way, so that the boat which is going to finish last still has some incentive to actually finish).
Cheers,
Dave McIntyre
Steve Fletcher wrote:
In the context of a club using a positive points scoring system.
Should boats be awarded points for starting a race but not finishing?
Under our current system a DNF in awarded the same points as a DNS.
Hardly fair! Does anybody else award points for a DNF, and what
method do you use in Sailwave?thanks
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If using RRS low point scoring, this is clearly documented and it's
important to distinguish between a DNS (a boat that enters the racing
area i.e. the starting area but does not start the race) and a DNC (a
boat that makes no attempt to race), especially in a series, which is
scored differently to a regatta.
Appendix A in the RRS2005-2008 covers scoring and the points that
should be awarded for places, DNC, DNS & DNF categories.
I think the point about DNC & DNS is that with a DNS, the competitor
has made the effort and has all intention of racing, but then decides
that they won't race, possibly due to equipment failure or unsafe
conditions, but in any case similar reasons for someone that starts
but does not finish the race.
So in this context, awarding DNS & DNF the same points is a fair
system.
In the context of a club using a positive points scoring system.
Should boats be awarded points for starting a race but not
finishing?
Under our current system a DNF in awarded the same points as a
DNS.
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Fletcher" <fletch@...> wrote:
Hardly fair! Does anybody else award points for a DNF, and what
method do you use in Sailwave?thanks
Appendix A also gives the option of scoring DNS = no of starters + 1 (App A9), esp. useful for a longer club series where the no of series entrants (hence DNC points) can be rather higher than the participants on the day.
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield, South Africa
----- Original Message -----
From:
Alan Jones
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 10:56 AM
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Points Ssytems
If using RRS low point scoring, this is clearly documented and it’s
important to distinguish between a DNS (a boat that enters the racing
area i.e. the starting area but does not start the race) and a DNC (a
boat that makes no attempt to race), especially in a series, which is
scored differently to a regatta.Appendix A in the RRS2005-2008 covers scoring and the points that
should be awarded for places, DNC, DNS & DNF categories.I think the point about DNC & DNS is that with a DNS, the competitor
has made the effort and has all intention of racing, but then decides
that they won’t race, possibly due to equipment failure or unsafe
conditions, but in any case similar reasons for someone that starts
but does not finish the race.So in this context, awarding DNS & DNF the same points is a fair
system.— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com , “Steve Fletcher” <fletch@…> wrote:
In the context of a club using a positive points scoring system.
Should boats be awarded points for starting a race but not
finishing?
Under our current system a DNF in awarded the same points as a
DNS.
Hardly fair! Does anybody else award points for a DNF, and what
method do you use in Sailwave?thanks
For our club summer series the SI permits the RC to stop a race and Finish In Place (FIP) boats still racing. We only use this to salvage a race when conditions deteriorate (storm or calm) after a few boats have finished fairly.
For the handicap fleet if 1/2 of the boats have times the boats still racing get a tie for the next position.
Our racers prefer to count the race and get to the bar.
Any boat who comes to the club ready to race will get at least a DNS even if conditions or breakage keep the skipper on shore. This gives some credit for showing up. It mostly helps with qualification and discards.
DNC is for those who did not show up at all.
…Gil
From Lancing SC's old SI's:
"Rule A9 shall apply to all race series, irrespective of length,
except that points for DNF and RAF will be 5, or one more than the
number of starters in the race, whichever is the greater. Points for
DNS, DSQ, OCS and BFD will be 6, or two more than the number of
starters in the race, whichever is the greater." We did this as it
seemed 'unfair' that a boat could score 3 (low points) for just
launching, also to discourage boats for doing that in gnarly
conditions just to get the points. (For some fleets our long series
are characterised by many entrants, so high value DNC, but
occasionally few starters, so low value DNS.)
Just had a bit of an internal debate about definition of DNS & seem to
have settled 'on present in the starting area' but I've not got the
final 2008 SI's yet....
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Fletcher" <fletch@...> wrote:
In the context of a club using a positive points scoring system.
Should boats be awarded points for starting a race but not finishing?
Under our current system a DNF in awarded the same points as a DNS.
Hardly fair! Does anybody else award points for a DNF, and what
method do you use in Sailwave?thanks
Gil,
that would assume you use a positive points system as opposed zero based. So do you used a fixed points or one of the systems where the points “float”?
Steve
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gil Vick
Sent:
Tuesday, 1 April 2008 01:21
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Points Ssytems
For our club summer series the SI permits the RC to stop a race and Finish In Place (FIP) boats still racing. We only use this to salvage a race when conditions deteriorate (storm or calm) after a few boats have finished fairly.
For the handicap fleet if 1/2 of the boats have times the boats still racing get a tie for the next position.
Our racers prefer to count the race and get to the bar.
Any boat who comes to the club ready to race will get at least a DNS even if conditions or breakage keep the skipper on shore. This gives some credit for showing up. It mostly helps with qualification and discards.
DNC is for those who did not show up at all.
…Gil
Steve,
I’m not quite sure what you are asking. We keep 2 sets of books. First we score each of the 6 race weekends (2-6 races depending on conditions) as a regatta with full bragging rights for the month. This is low point, USPN, and guests are welcome. We extend the “starting area” to the beach so if a competitor is at the club with a boat and decides to not to race because of conditions or breakage we score him DNS. For the season we enter the weekend results for members only into a second series. I cannot get my club to play with a high point system.
To salvage a race gone bad, for one design we score FIP by driving the crash boat down the course recording what we see. We score ties where there is doubt.
For the USPN boats, if 1/2 have good times we tie the rest at the next available position. Crude we know but our guys had rather count a race and it really does not affect the prizes too much.
We do this FIP stuff maybe once each season.
Did I answer anything?
…Gil
----- Original Message -----
From:
Steve Fletcher
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 9:23 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Points Ssytems
Gil,
that would assume you use a positive points system as opposed zero based. So do you used a fixed points or one of the systems where the points “float”?
Steve
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gil Vick
Sent: Tuesday, 1 April 2008 01:21
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Re: Points Ssytems
For our club summer series the SI permits the RC to stop a race and Finish In Place (FIP) boats still racing. We only use this to salvage a race when conditions deteriorate (storm or calm) after a few boats have finished fairly.
For the handicap fleet if 1/2 of the boats have times the boats still racing get a tie for the next position.
Our racers prefer to count the race and get to the bar.
Any boat who comes to the club ready to race will get at least a DNS even if conditions or breakage keep the skipper on shore. This gives some credit for showing up. It mostly helps with qualification and discards.
DNC is for those who did not show up at all.
…Gil