We are investigating implementing a Progressive Handicapping system for Cruiser racing. I know that SAIL 100 has functionality that calculates the revised handicap and can set up the revised number for the 'next race'.
I don't want us to change from SW, having used it successfully for 10 years and becoming reasonably competent.
Can Jon advise whether it is possible to add it to SW (it seems to be a development of the 'back calculated rating' function).
Mike Swingler
Flushing Sailing Club
An eminent scorer here attempted to do the same. His one requirement was a written set of rules for dealing with handicap changes, exceptions, how to deal with redress etc. as I understand it he is still waiting!
Progressive Echo can be a bit strange at regattas, if the handicap is adjusted after every race. It gets seriously weird when a passage time at a mark is used to score one "race", at the finish time to score another "race". Between the 2 races handicaps are adjusted so for the part of the race to the designated passage point a boat will have 2 handicaps!
Gordon
On 18/11/2012 14:24, Mike wrote:
We are investigating implementing a Progressive Handicapping system for Cruiser racing. I know that SAIL 100 has functionality that calculates the revised handicap and can set up the revised number for the 'next race'.
I don't want us to change from SW, having used it successfully for 10 years and becoming reasonably competent.
Can Jon advise whether it is possible to add it to SW (it seems to be a development of the 'back calculated rating' function).Mike Swingler
Flushing Sailing Club
Hi Mike,
Sailwave has some support built into Sailwave for Personal Handicaps.
Firstly Sailwave allows for the Handicap for each competitor to be different for each race.
Then
If you go to Tools - Assign Personal Handicaps…
This gives you one way of doing it. Based on a simple expression
If you want to get really sophisticated there is my program that I have written which supports the Echo and virtually any other method of calculating the new handicap.
This feeds the info from Sailwave into an Excel spreadsheet. All controlled by a template
Excel then calculates the new handicap for the next race and feeds it back into Sailwave.
This allows you total control of how its calculated and more importantly you have an audit trail of the calculation.
It takes a bit of work if you want to modify the template but as long as you can use Excel and know what you want to do, its not difficult. Once the template is set up you can use it easily.
If we ever get to a stage where there is a Majority decision on the correct method and it is not going to change I will consider building it into Sailwave as standard. But as it is you have the ability to tweak it yourself.
In my new role I shall be able to integrate it even better with Sailwave but it is certainly very usable as it is.
Jon
On 18 November 2012 14:24, Mike mswingler1@googlemail.com wrote:
We are investigating implementing a Progressive Handicapping system for Cruiser racing. I know that SAIL 100 has functionality that calculates the revised handicap and can set up the revised number for the ‘next race’.
I don’t want us to change from SW, having used it successfully for 10 years and becoming reasonably competent.
Can Jon advise whether it is possible to add it to SW (it seems to be a development of the ‘back calculated rating’ function).Mike Swingler
Flushing Sailing Club
–
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”
Hi Jon
Thanks for your reply. I'd like to try the template, how do I get it?
Mike
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Jon Eskdale <jon@...> wrote:
Hi Mike,
Sailwave has some support built into Sailwave for Personal Handicaps.
Firstly Sailwave allows for the Handicap for each competitor to be
different for each race.Then
If you go to Tools - Assign Personal Handicaps...
This gives you one way of doing it. Based on a simple expressionIf you want to get really sophisticated there is my program that I have
written which supports the Echo and virtually any other method of
calculating the new handicap.This feeds the info from Sailwave into an Excel spreadsheet. All
controlled by a template
Excel then calculates the new handicap for the next race and feeds it back
into Sailwave.This allows you total control of how its calculated and more importantly
you have an audit trail of the calculation.
It takes a bit of work if you want to modify the template but as long as
you can use Excel and know what you want to do, its not difficult. Once
the template is set up you can use it easily.If we ever get to a stage where there is a Majority decision on the correct
method and it is not going to change I will consider building it into
Sailwave as standard. But as it is you have the ability to tweak it
yourself.In my new role I shall be able to integrate it even better with Sailwave
but it is certainly very usable as it is.Jon
On 18 November 2012 14:24, Mike <mswingler1@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> We are investigating implementing a Progressive Handicapping system for
> Cruiser racing. I know that SAIL 100 has functionality that calculates the
> revised handicap and can set up the revised number for the 'next race'.
> I don't want us to change from SW, having used it successfully for 10
> years and becoming reasonably competent.
> Can Jon advise whether it is possible to add it to SW (it seems to be a
> development of the 'back calculated rating' function).
>
> Mike Swingler
> Flushing Sailing Club
>
>
>--
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype "eskdale"
Hi Mike,
Have a play with this and let me know how you get on
https://sites.google.com/site/eskdalesite/home/swph
Jon
On 18 November 2012 17:44, Mike mswingler1@googlemail.com wrote:
Hi Jon
Thanks for your reply. I’d like to try the template, how do I get it?
Mike
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Jon Eskdale <jon@…> wrote:
Hi Mike,
Sailwave has some support built into Sailwave for Personal Handicaps.
Firstly Sailwave allows for the Handicap for each competitor to be
different for each race.
Then
If you go to Tools - Assign Personal Handicaps…
This gives you one way of doing it. Based on a simple expression
If you want to get really sophisticated there is my program that I have
written which supports the Echo and virtually any other method of
calculating the new handicap.
This feeds the info from Sailwave into an Excel spreadsheet. All
controlled by a template
Excel then calculates the new handicap for the next race and feeds it back
into Sailwave.
This allows you total control of how its calculated and more importantly
you have an audit trail of the calculation.
It takes a bit of work if you want to modify the template but as long as
you can use Excel and know what you want to do, its not difficult. Once
the template is set up you can use it easily.
If we ever get to a stage where there is a Majority decision on the correct
method and it is not going to change I will consider building it into
Sailwave as standard. But as it is you have the ability to tweak it
yourself.
In my new role I shall be able to integrate it even better with Sailwave
but it is certainly very usable as it is.
Jon
On 18 November 2012 14:24, Mike <mswingler1@…> wrote:
**
We are investigating implementing a Progressive Handicapping system for
Cruiser racing. I know that SAIL 100 has functionality that calculates the
revised handicap and can set up the revised number for the ‘next race’.
I don’t want us to change from SW, having used it successfully for 10
years and becoming reasonably competent.
Can Jon advise whether it is possible to add it to SW (it seems to be a
development of the ‘back calculated rating’ function).
Mike Swingler
Flushing Sailing Club
–
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”
–
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”
Mike,
We use progressive handicaps extensively in Ireland (“ECHO”) for long running series, e.g. Thursday night racing. Sailwave can handle this without problem as changes to handicaps are relatively infrequent and are normally decided by a handicapping committee. As with golf handicaps, normally individual boats are re-handicapped from time to time, rather than the entire fleet being re-handicapped.
The difficult case is for regattas where progressive handicap is used, and handicaps are recalculated after every race, typically starting from a standard (e.g. IRC) handicap for the first race. Jon has written a Macro to do this in Sailwave, and as you note Sail100 also does this. However the concept itself has some serious flaws:
Typically, you need 6-8 races to provide enough data to calculate a fair handicap (using the golf example, would you issue a handicap after just one round of golf). In an 8 race regatta, you therefore really only have a fair handicap for the last couple of races, but all races still count.
Early in the series, with only a couple of races sailed, you tend to get large changes in the handicap
It’s almost impossible for software to take into account the ‘outliers’. So if I finish 10 minutes later than I would normally, because I got my spinnaker wrapped around my forestay and had to sail on past the leeward mark, I get a huge handicap adjustment in my favour (partic. in the early races).
Net is that if you use Progressive Handicap for a single regatta, with recalculation after every race, you will have a queue of people outside the race office every day complaining about their handicap, and some level of manual adjustment will be needed for outlier situations. Make sure you add something in the SIs along the lines of ‘handicaps will be determined at the sole discretion of the handicapper, and determination of handicap will not be grounds for redress’.
BTW, in case anyone is wondering, the reason why you would do this at all, is that Progressive Handicaps are managed within fleets, and even if they start with the same base, and same recalculation principles, fleets do diverge over time. So two boats of ‘equal’ performance with standard handicaps of 1.000 might in one fleet end up with progressive handicaps of 1.100 each, but in another fleet might end up with 1.050 each. So they are level rated in each fleet, but not if the fleets are combined for a regatta once a year. Hence the argument that everyone should be reset to 1.000 for the regatta, and then re-handicap after every race.
Ian.
From: Mike
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 2:24 PM
Subject: [sailwave] Progressive handicapping (ECHO)
We are investigating implementing a Progressive Handicapping system for Cruiser racing. I know that SAIL 100 has functionality that calculates the revised handicap and can set up the revised number for the ‘next race’.
I don’t want us to change from SW, having used it successfully for 10 years and becoming reasonably competent.
Can Jon advise whether it is possible to add it to SW (it seems to be a development of the ‘back calculated rating’ function).
Mike Swingler
Flushing Sailing Club
Similar used at Lancing SC. Having tried the ‘adjust after every race’ approach, as handicapper I look at the BCR/handicap distribution after every race: those regularly appearing towards one end or the other get their handicaps adjusted.
HTH
Mike
Lancing SC
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, “Ian Bowring” <bowringi@…> wrote:
Mike,
We use progressive handicaps extensively in Ireland (âECHOâ) for long running series, e.g. Thursday night racing. Sailwave can handle this without problem as changes to handicaps are relatively infrequent and are normally decided by a handicapping committee. As with golf handicaps, normally individual boats are re-handicapped from time to time, rather than the entire fleet being re-handicapped.
Ian
Thanks for the message. It depends what is mean’t by progressive handicapping. We do what you describe now using the YR2 spreadsheet and make a few revisions after around every 4 to 6 races. The system the RYA are thinking about for Cruiser racing is much more extreme. After every race the handicaps would be automatically changed by the results system, based on a calculation of the PI’s over a rolling 4 weeks. The details of how outliers might be treated has not yet been discussed, or any other set up parameters that might be made. But the principle is that the system should be set with parameters that allow it to calculate the numbers and automatically update for the next race.
We are told that Sail 100 can do this. Looking at Sail 100 there are various parameters that can be pre-set to avoid using dodgy data and still avoid manual intervention. Clearly for it to work as outlined the handicap update must be automatic. We will play with Jon’s spreadsheet and see how we get on.
Regards Mike
On 21 November 2012 09:36, Ian Bowring bowringi@eircom.net wrote:
Mike,
We use progressive handicaps extensively in Ireland (“ECHO”) for long running series, e.g. Thursday night racing. Sailwave can handle this without problem as changes to handicaps are relatively infrequent and are normally decided by a handicapping committee. As with golf handicaps, normally individual boats are re-handicapped from time to time, rather than the entire fleet being re-handicapped.
The difficult case is for regattas where progressive handicap is used, and handicaps are recalculated after every race, typically starting from a standard (e.g. IRC) handicap for the first race. Jon has written a Macro to do this in Sailwave, and as you note Sail100 also does this. However the concept itself has some serious flaws:
- Typically, you need 6-8 races to provide enough data to calculate a fair handicap (using the golf example, would you issue a handicap after just one round of golf). In an 8 race regatta, you therefore really only have a fair handicap for the last couple of races, but all races still count.
- Early in the series, with only a couple of races sailed, you tend to get large changes in the handicap
- It’s almost impossible for software to take into account the ‘outliers’. So if I finish 10 minutes later than I would normally, because I got my spinnaker wrapped around my forestay and had to sail on past the leeward mark, I get a huge handicap adjustment in my favour (partic. in the early races).
Net is that if you use Progressive Handicap for a single regatta, with recalculation after every race, you will have a queue of people outside the race office every day complaining about their handicap, and some level of manual adjustment will be needed for outlier situations. Make sure you add something in the SIs along the lines of ‘handicaps will be determined at the sole discretion of the handicapper, and determination of handicap will not be grounds for redress’.
BTW, in case anyone is wondering, the reason why you would do this at all, is that Progressive Handicaps are managed within fleets, and even if they start with the same base, and same recalculation principles, fleets do diverge over time. So two boats of ‘equal’ performance with standard handicaps of 1.000 might in one fleet end up with progressive handicaps of 1.100 each, but in another fleet might end up with 1.050 each. So they are level rated in each fleet, but not if the fleets are combined for a regatta once a year. Hence the argument that everyone should be reset to 1.000 for the regatta, and then re-handicap after every race.
Ian.
From: Mike
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 2:24 PM
Subject: [sailwave] Progressive handicapping (ECHO)
We are investigating implementing a Progressive Handicapping system for Cruiser racing. I know that SAIL 100 has functionality that calculates the revised handicap and can set up the revised number for the ‘next race’.
I don’t want us to change from SW, having used it successfully for 10 years and becoming reasonably competent.
Can Jon advise whether it is possible to add it to SW (it seems to be a development of the ‘back calculated rating’ function).Mike Swingler
Flushing Sailing Club
The system the RYA
are thinking about for Cruiser racing is much more extreme. After every
race the handicaps would be automatically changed by the results system,
based on a calculation of the PI’s over a rolling 4 weeks. The details of
how outliers might be treated has not yet been discussed, or any other set
up parameters that might be made. But the principle is that the system
should be set with parameters that allow it to calculate the numbers and
automatically update for the next race.
Having got the scorched T-shirt on progressive handicaps, may I point out a couple of the potential pratfalls:
Love the term ‘pratfalls’
I used to use a system that changed a helm’s Hcap based on current Hcap and last race performance. It was weighted to get lower quicker than it increased.
There were occasional comments about the out turn results but everyone lived with it
If there was a perfect solution everyone would come equal 1st every race
Personal handicaps are used to give the not so good a chance but that can put the better boats off from competing as they clearly like winning too!
As mentioned earlier, no system will be perfect but I did like the randomness of having a handicap adjusted after every race
William Carruthers
/)/)/)___/)
(_(___(__
Sent from my iPhone
On 21 Nov 2012, at 12:39, “Mike” mike.croker@phonecoop.coop wrote:
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Mike Swingler <mswingler1@…> wrote:
The system the RYA
are thinking about for Cruiser racing is much more extreme. After every
race the handicaps would be automatically changed by the results system,
based on a calculation of the PI’s over a rolling 4 weeks. The details of
how outliers might be treated has not yet been discussed, or any other set
up parameters that might be made. But the principle is that the system
should be set with parameters that allow it to calculate the numbers and
automatically update for the next race.
Having got the scorched T-shirt on progressive handicaps, may I point out a couple of the potential pratfalls:
- Some boats go better in light winds than heavy, and vice versa: you get a few weeks of lighter / heaviers winds and what happens to the handicaps?
- Some boats go better with certain off-wind course angles than others…
- Even the best crews have a bad day from time to time: if they’re really organised maybe these could be pre-planned to help their rating?
Handicapping is, at best, an averaging thing, and my experience suggests that recent past performance is no guide to future performance
Mike
Lancing SC
Thanks Mike, I get all that. But we will certainly consider giving it a try if the RYA develop a scheme (this is cruiser racing btw on mainly regatta courses, not dinghies), so I am looking for ways to do it with Sailwave. Having been a Sailwave user for 10 years and having introduced it at our club, I am not looking to change to Sail 100.
Regards Mike
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mike.croker@...> wrote:
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Mike Swingler <mswingler1@> wrote:
> The system the RYA
> are thinking about for Cruiser racing is much more extreme. After
every
> race the handicaps would be automatically changed by the results
system,
> based on a calculation of the PI's over a rolling 4 weeks. The details
of
> how outliers might be treated has not yet been discussed, or any other
set
> up parameters that might be made. But the principle is that the system
> should be set with parameters that allow it to calculate the numbers
and
> automatically update for the next race.Having got the scorched T-shirt on progressive handicaps, may I point
out a couple of the potential pratfalls:
1. Some boats go better in light winds than heavy, and vice versa:
you get a few weeks of lighter / heaviers winds and what happens to the
handicaps?
2. Some boats go better with certain off-wind course angles than
others....
3. Even the best crews have a bad day from time to time: if they're
really organised maybe these could be pre-planned to help their rating?
Handicapping is, at best, an averaging thing, and my experience suggests
that recent past performance is no guide to future performance
MikeLancing SC
Locally, we have a class where we adjust the ratings after every race based on just that race. The folks sailing under the class seem to like it even though I personally think it is nuts.
One problem we have noticed is that some boats will be WAAAAY back when they lose and it is obvious they are intentionally doing that. That doesn't break the racing rules but obviously is not in the spirit of "golf" handicapping. The incentive exists because we only use the last race and not multiple prior races.
We use the middle (median) boat as our base and after each race calculate what rating would have put a boat finishing tied with the middle base boat and compare it to her current rating. Then we adjust 15% of that differential so ratings will move slowly and there is less incentive to lose big time (but they folks it anyway and it does seem to work). I suppose it would be nice if Sailwave could handle something like that but for now we use a custom program for the one series of races where we apply "golf" handicapping (we only use it in our summer-long series and in other regattas and series there simply aren't enough races for there to be meaningful adjustments).
PRO - Everyone gets a reasonable chance at a trophy before the season ends. The best sailors don't always win, either individual races or the season championship.
CON - It really isn't measuring sailing "skill" and in any event is too subject to manipulation. In a sense it isn't a lot better than awarding trophies based on some random event.
Art
On 11/21/2012 4:53 AM, Bassenthwaite SC wrote:
Love the term 'pratfalls'
I used to use a system that changed a helm's Hcap based on current Hcap and last race performance. It was weighted to get lower quicker than it increased.
There were occasional comments about the out turn results but everyone lived with it
If there was a perfect solution everyone would come equal 1st every race
Personal handicaps are used to give the not so good a chance but that can put the better boats off from competing as they clearly like winning too!
As mentioned earlier, no system will be perfect but I did like the randomness of having a handicap adjusted after every race
William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone
/)___/)___/)___/)
__(\___(\___(\__On 21 Nov 2012, at 12:39, "Mike"<mike.croker@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Mike Swingler<mswingler1@...> wrote:
The system the RYA
are thinking about for Cruiser racing is much more extreme. After every
race the handicaps would be automatically changed by the results system,
based on a calculation of the PI's over a rolling 4 weeks. The details of
how outliers might be treated has not yet been discussed, or any other set
up parameters that might be made. But the principle is that the system
should be set with parameters that allow it to calculate the numbers and
automatically update for the next race.Having got the scorched T-shirt on progressive handicaps, may I point out a couple of the potential pratfalls:
Some boats go better in light winds than heavy, and vice versa: you get a few weeks of lighter / heaviers winds and what happens to the handicaps?
Some boats go better with certain off-wind course angles than others....
Even the best crews have a bad day from time to time: if they're really organised maybe these could be pre-planned to help their rating?
Handicapping is, at best, an averaging thing, and my experience suggests that recent past performance is no guide to future performanceMike
Lancing SC
Hi Art,
You would be able to do it with Sailwave using the SWPH addon! Just modify the rules in the Spreadsheet to match yours. With my new position I could improve the interface with Sailwave to make it nicer to use. And if there was enough interest I could build it into Sailwave but the problem is that there are so many different ways of calculating PH and these are increasing and changing constantly, that building in a hard and fixed rule in doesn’t seem appropriate. This way you can also have an audit trail of the calculation.
Jon
On 21 November 2012 23:43, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net wrote:
Locally, we have a class where we adjust the ratings after every race
based on just that race. The folks sailing under the class seem to like
it even though I personally think it is nuts.One problem we have noticed is that some boats will be WAAAAY back when
they lose and it is obvious they are intentionally doing that. That
doesn’t break the racing rules but obviously is not in the spirit of
“golf” handicapping. The incentive exists because we only use the last
race and not multiple prior races.We use the middle (median) boat as our base and after each race
calculate what rating would have put a boat finishing tied with the
middle base boat and compare it to her current rating. Then we adjust
15% of that differential so ratings will move slowly and there is less
incentive to lose big time (but they folks it anyway and it does seem to
work). I suppose it would be nice if Sailwave could handle something
like that but for now we use a custom program for the one series of
races where we apply “golf” handicapping (we only use it in our
summer-long series and in other regattas and series there simply aren’t
enough races for there to be meaningful adjustments).PRO - Everyone gets a reasonable chance at a trophy before the season
ends. The best sailors don’t always win, either individual races or the
season championship.CON - It really isn’t measuring sailing “skill” and in any event is too
subject to manipulation. In a sense it isn’t a lot better than awarding
trophies based on some random event.Art
On 11/21/2012 4:53 AM, Bassenthwaite SC wrote:
Love the term ‘pratfalls’
I used to use a system that changed a helm’s Hcap based on current Hcap and last race performance. It was weighted to get lower quicker than it increased.
There were occasional comments about the out turn results but everyone lived with it
If there was a perfect solution everyone would come equal 1st every race
Personal handicaps are used to give the not so good a chance but that can put the better boats off from competing as they clearly like winning too!
As mentioned earlier, no system will be perfect but I did like the randomness of having a handicap adjusted after every race
William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone
/)/)/)___/)
(_(___(__
On 21 Nov 2012, at 12:39, "Mike"mike.croker@phonecoop.coop wrote:
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Mike Swingler<mswingler1@…> wrote:
The system the RYA
are thinking about for Cruiser racing is much more extreme. After every
race the handicaps would be automatically changed by the results system,
based on a calculation of the PI’s over a rolling 4 weeks. The details of
how outliers might be treated has not yet been discussed, or any other set
up parameters that might be made. But the principle is that the system
should be set with parameters that allow it to calculate the numbers and
automatically update for the next race.
Having got the scorched T-shirt on progressive handicaps, may I point out a couple of the potential pratfalls:
Some boats go better in light winds than heavy, and vice versa: you get a few weeks of lighter / heaviers winds and what happens to the handicaps?
Some boats go better with certain off-wind course angles than others…
Even the best crews have a bad day from time to time: if they’re really organised maybe these could be pre-planned to help their rating?
Handicapping is, at best, an averaging thing, and my experience suggests that recent past performance is no guide to future performance
Mike
Lancing SC
–
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”
The point about this for our cruiser racing is that there are so many different types & configurations of boats that a PY system has become unusable. In Falmouth we have some 95 boats sailing under PY and some 90 classes. The PY handicaps have to be adjusted to give fair racing, so a golf style system already exists. We are not really talking about a situation where there might be, say, 20 Lasers, all the same, with a certificate - but with different handicaps according to ability.
I believe the Sail 100 programme works similarly to Art's description (The RYA YR2 works on the median of the top 2/3 of the fleet (SCT), and excludes boats performing at more than +5% of the SCT, boats are then adjusted by 25%, or more if a new boat)
Mike
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Art Engel <artengel123@...> wrote:
Locally, we have a class where we adjust the ratings after every race
based on just that race. The folks sailing under the class seem to like
it even though I personally think it is nuts.One problem we have noticed is that some boats will be WAAAAY back when
they lose and it is obvious they are intentionally doing that. That
doesn't break the racing rules but obviously is not in the spirit of
"golf" handicapping. The incentive exists because we only use the last
race and not multiple prior races.We use the middle (median) boat as our base and after each race
calculate what rating would have put a boat finishing tied with the
middle base boat and compare it to her current rating. Then we adjust
15% of that differential so ratings will move slowly and there is less
incentive to lose big time (but they folks it anyway and it does seem to
work). I suppose it would be nice if Sailwave could handle something
like that but for now we use a custom program for the one series of
races where we apply "golf" handicapping (we only use it in our
summer-long series and in other regattas and series there simply aren't
enough races for there to be meaningful adjustments).PRO - Everyone gets a reasonable chance at a trophy before the season
ends. The best sailors don't always win, either individual races or the
season championship.CON - It really isn't measuring sailing "skill" and in any event is too
subject to manipulation. In a sense it isn't a lot better than awarding
trophies based on some random event.Art
On 11/21/2012 4:53 AM, Bassenthwaite SC wrote:
> Love the term 'pratfalls'
>
> I used to use a system that changed a helm's Hcap based on current Hcap and last race performance. It was weighted to get lower quicker than it increased.
>
> There were occasional comments about the out turn results but everyone lived with it
>
> If there was a perfect solution everyone would come equal 1st every race
>
> Personal handicaps are used to give the not so good a chance but that can put the better boats off from competing as they clearly like winning too!
>
> As mentioned earlier, no system will be perfect but I did like the randomness of having a handicap adjusted after every race
>
> William Carruthers
> Sent from my iPhone
> /)___/)___/)___/)
> __(\___(\___(\__
>
> On 21 Nov 2012, at 12:39, "Mike"<mike.croker@...> wrote:
>
>>
>> --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Mike Swingler<mswingler1@> wrote:
>>> The system the RYA
>>> are thinking about for Cruiser racing is much more extreme. After every
>>> race the handicaps would be automatically changed by the results system,
>>> based on a calculation of the PI's over a rolling 4 weeks. The details of
>>> how outliers might be treated has not yet been discussed, or any other set
>>> up parameters that might be made. But the principle is that the system
>>> should be set with parameters that allow it to calculate the numbers and
>>> automatically update for the next race.
>>
>>
>> Having got the scorched T-shirt on progressive handicaps, may I point out a couple of the potential pratfalls:
>> Some boats go better in light winds than heavy, and vice versa: you get a few weeks of lighter / heaviers winds and what happens to the handicaps?
>> Some boats go better with certain off-wind course angles than others....
>> Even the best crews have a bad day from time to time: if they're really organised maybe these could be pre-planned to help their rating?
>> Handicapping is, at best, an averaging thing, and my experience suggests that recent past performance is no guide to future performance
>>
>> Mike
>> Lancing SC
>>
>