Just to let you know the RYA have made another announcement on their scheme - See the following link
Link to new RYA article on NHC
Although this is an RYA initiative, as the article describes it is based on principles used Internationally.
Jon
Curious if anyone in the dinghy world is thinking of heading this route. I could be throughly persauded this is the way to go - allowing old one design boats with tired sails etc to compete with a supposedly identical out of the mould new boat.
···
On 2013-02-23 13:46, JON wrote:
Just to let you know the RYA have made another announcement on their scheme - See the following link
Although this is an RYA initiative, as the article describes it is based on principles used Internationally.
Jon
Jon
I might have missed earlier discussion on this, but is it something you are introducing into sailwave?
William Carruthers
/)/)/)___/)
(_(___(__
···
Sent from my iPhone
On 23 Feb 2013, at 13:46, “JON” jon@sailwave.com wrote:
Just to let you know the RYA have made another announcement on their scheme - See the following link
Although this is an RYA initiative, as the article describes it is based on principles used Internationally.
Jon
I personally think the idea of dual scoring is the initial way to go so that the faster boats don’t get discouraged. But using this should give encouragement to the less competitive to enter the racing, as their results will improve if their sailing skills improve. They don’t have to beat all the new and faster boats to win using this method but they do have to improve or perform better than they normally do, very similar to a Golf Handicap. With the dual scoring you still see where you are based on your base rating figures.
The NHC scheme is based on TCF time correction factor but I’m just working on allowing the system to be able to use a PY rating by converting the PY to an equivalent TCF and then back to a PY. This is not the ideal as their will be some rounding errors in the conversion but it would allow anyone with some results with PY ratings to try it using their existing PY Sailwave files. Although using the Excel based calculation option you could replace the template with one designed for PY use and of course any method of calculations you can imagine.
···
On 23 February 2013 14:52, yahoo@wittongilbert.free-online.co.uk wrote:
Curious if anyone in the dinghy world is thinking of heading this route. I could be throughly persauded this is the way to go - allowing old one design boats with tired sails etc to compete with a supposedly identical out of the mould new boat.
On 2013-02-23 13:46, JON wrote:
Just to let you know the RYA have made another announcement on their scheme - See the following link
Although this is an RYA initiative, as the article describes it is based on principles used Internationally.
Jon
Hi William,
This is something that I’ve been working on for the last few months. It is in Version 2.9 which is not released yet as the RYA don’t want all the full details released until they officially announce it which is supposed to be the 1st of March. There will be a Beta version of it available as soon as they officially release it. If you have some cruisers results that you could put through it, let me know. I’m still looking for another person to assist with testing the Beta version.
Jon
···
On 23 February 2013 15:23, Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk wrote:
Jon
I might have missed earlier discussion on this, but is it something you are introducing into sailwave?
William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone
/)/)/)___/)
(_(___(__
On 23 Feb 2013, at 13:46, “JON” jon@sailwave.com wrote:
Just to let you know the RYA have made another announcement on their scheme - See the following link
Although this is an RYA initiative, as the article describes it is based on principles used Internationally.
Jon
Jon
Thanks for the update, but I was thinking of suggesting it for club dinghy racing. Helms could start a series with a personal hcp that is adjusted throughout the series based on. Their performance in that series.
Better than having what could be a beneficial (or detrimental!) hcp for a full series, or indeed season!
Thanks again
William Carruthers
/)/)/)___/)
(_(___(__
···
On 23 February 2013 15:23, Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk wrote:
Jon
I might have missed earlier discussion on this, but is it something you are introducing into sailwave?
William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone
/)/)/)___/)
(_(___(__
On 23 Feb 2013, at 13:46, “JON” jon@sailwave.com wrote:
Just to let you know the RYA have made another announcement on their scheme - See the following link
Although this is an RYA initiative, as the article describes it is based on principles used Internationally.
Jon
Hi William,
That is what this NHC does although initially designed for cruisers. There are two models one for Club racing and one for Regattas. You would be looking at a Club racing model. This NHC works by having a Base rating which is set by the RYA and lets say we have a boat that competes in the Wednesday night series and a Sunday Series.
After each race their handicap gets adjusted based on performance of the race. The series are separate so their Wednesday night handicap will be different from their Sunday handicap as the conditions are typically different for evening racing. At the end of the series a carried forward handicap is calculated which they will use if they compete in the next Wednesday evening series and another carried forward is calculated and used for the next Sunday series.
Jon
···
On 23 February 2013 16:14, Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk wrote:
Jon
Thanks for the update, but I was thinking of suggesting it for club dinghy racing. Helms could start a series with a personal hcp that is adjusted throughout the series based on. Their performance in that series.
Better than having what could be a beneficial (or detrimental!) hcp for a full series, or indeed season!
Thanks again
William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone
/)/)/)___/)
(_(___(__
On 23 Feb 2013, at 15:54, Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com wrote:
Hi William,
This is something that I’ve been working on for the last few months. It is in Version 2.9 which is not released yet as the RYA don’t want all the full details released until they officially announce it which is supposed to be the 1st of March. There will be a Beta version of it available as soon as they officially release it. If you have some cruisers results that you could put through it, let me know. I’m still looking for another person to assist with testing the Beta version.
Jon
On 23 February 2013 15:23, Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk wrote:
Jon
I might have missed earlier discussion on this, but is it something you are introducing into sailwave?
William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone
/)/)/)___/)
(_(___(__
On 23 Feb 2013, at 13:46, “JON” jon@sailwave.com wrote:
Just to let you know the RYA have made another announcement on their scheme - See the following link
Although this is an RYA initiative, as the article describes it is based on principles used Internationally.
Jon
Hi William,
That is what this NHC does although initially designed for cruisers. There
are two models one for Club racing and one for Regattas. You would be
looking at a Club racing model. This NHC works by having a Base rating
which is set by the RYA and lets say we have a boat that competes in the
Wednesday night series and a Sunday Series.After each race their handicap gets adjusted based on performance of the
race. The series are separate so their Wednesday night handicap will be
different from their Sunday handicap as the conditions are typically
different for evening racing. At the end of the series a carried forward
handicap is calculated which they will use if they compete in the next
Wednesday evening series and another carried forward is calculated and used
for the next Sunday series.
Thanks for the heads-up, Jon, but I guess we will only find out what adjustment algorithms are used after the dinghy show announcement?
FWIW my views on race-by-race adjustment are written here , but as I need to hand over the Lancing SC handicapping job so someone else, I’m interested to see the RYA’s approach.
Cheers
Mike,
Give me a call on 03333 443377 or 07976 709777 if you have a few minutes to discuss it - If you are interested
Thanks
Jon
···
On 23 February 2013 18:08, Mike mike.croker@phonecoop.coop wrote:
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Jon Eskdale <jon@…> wrote:
Hi William,
That is what this NHC does although initially designed for cruisers. There
are two models one for Club racing and one for Regattas. You would be
looking at a Club racing model. This NHC works by having a Base rating
which is set by the RYA and lets say we have a boat that competes in theWednesday night series and a Sunday Series.
After each race their handicap gets adjusted based on performance of the
race. The series are separate so their Wednesday night handicap will bedifferent from their Sunday handicap as the conditions are typically
different for evening racing. At the end of the series a carried forward
handicap is calculated which they will use if they compete in the nextWednesday evening series and another carried forward is calculated and used
for the next Sunday series.
Thanks for the heads-up, Jon, but I guess we will only find out what adjustment algorithms are used after the dinghy show announcement?
FWIW my views on race-by-race adjustment are written here , but as I need to hand over the Lancing SC handicapping job so someone else, I’m interested to see the RYA’s approach.
Cheers
Mike
Lancing SC
For anyone interested in how it will work I’ve written some preliminary documentation which is available at:
Jon
···
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, “Mike” <mike.croker@…> wrote:
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Jon Eskdale jon@ wrote:
Hi William,
That is what this NHC does although initially designed for cruisers.
There
are two models one for Club racing and one for Regattas. You would be
looking at a Club racing model. This NHC works by having a Base
rating
which is set by the RYA and lets say we have a boat that competes in
the
Wednesday night series and a Sunday Series.After each race their handicap gets adjusted based on performance of
the
race. The series are separate so their Wednesday night handicap will
be
different from their Sunday handicap as the conditions are typically
different for evening racing. At the end of the series a carried
forward
handicap is calculated which they will use if they compete in the next
Wednesday evening series and another carried forward is calculated and
used
for the next Sunday series.Thanks for the heads-up, Jon, but I guess we will only find out what
adjustment algorithms are used after the dinghy show announcement?
FWIW my views on race-by-race adjustment are written here
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/message/9311 , but as I need to
hand over the Lancing SC handicapping job so someone else, I’m
interested to see the RYA’s approach.
Cheers
Mike
Lancing SC
This gets down to the goal of a sailboat race. Should the best sailor win OR should every boat have an equal chance of winning?
What is being referred to here as "personal handicapping," but which elsewhere is ofter referred to as "skipper handicapping" or "golf handicapping," pursues the latter goal. I think this works well in golf because you can play against yourself and no one else - you judge your performance by how far you are off of par. I don't think it works as well in sailing as there is no "par" to compare yourself to, just other boats.
In theory, you could duplicate the goal of "golf handicapping" by simply handing out trophies on a random basis after each race regardless of the performance on the water. After all, the goal is to have every boat cross the line exactly tied (after handicapping adjustments) so it really should be up to chance as to who should win each race.
A "golf handicapping" system makes some sense for individual races but it doesn't make a lot of sense for series results, which are kind of intended to measure long term success (rather than long-term random results). We offer a "golf handicapping" system locally where I sail (it attracts 20-25% of the boats) and one problem is boats intentionally losing to benefit their handicap for future races of a series.
Another thought - in golf folks tend to measure their success by how low their handicap is. By analogy, I would seriously consider giving series trophies to the boat whose ending handicap is the farthest below the base handicap for their boat. In other words, that is the boat that has sailed the "best" compared to its base handicap.
Art
PS - To give an example of the problems that arise with a "golf handicapping" system, we once had a boat that was last every race for an entire season by large margins, we now believe intentionally. The next year they started out the season with the handicap for a REALLY slow boat. But, the second year they sailed normally and because of their handicap won lots of races and the season championship. Its hard to imagine someone blowing away a whole season of racing just to win overall the next year but we've had it actually happen. Our system changes the handicap after every race but only allows a movement of so much per race.
···
On 2/23/2013 10:08 AM, Mike wrote:
Thanks for the heads-up, Jon, but I guess we will only find out what
adjustment algorithms are used after the dinghy show announcement?
FWIW my views on race-by-race adjustment are written here
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/message/9311> , but as I need to
hand over the Lancing SC handicapping job so someone else, I'm
interested to see the RYA's approach.
Cheers
Mike
Lancing SC
Previous posting (from link):
+++++
Having used progressive personal handicap systems in the past (where handicap for race N is based on results from races 1 to N-1 with some sort of weighting) I came to the conclusion that, although a transparent method (i.e. not influence of the handicapper, other than setting the initial handicap) they didn't really offer any other advantages over a fixed, but occaisionally revised (like golf?) system. The main reasons being that you never have enough data: too few races + relative dinghy performance is so weather dependant (I wouldn't recommend going there, either!), so you either end up with a heavily damped adjustment term, or the handicap is too dependant upon the last race sailed.
Now I just discuss handicaps with the main fleet captains at the start of the season, and monitor the relative performances after each race using the BCR output of Sailwave, plotting normalised (to mid fleet) BCR as a % vs result. The aim being to get all within a narrow band, and not the same sailors at the extremes each race.
HTH.
Mike
Lancing SC
+++++
With some trepidation, I set up a simple personal handicap system ay my club some 15 years ago. As expected, most sailors felt that it would be a waste of time but to everyone’s surprise, it became quite a topic of conversation in the bar & I believe that it may still be running after all these years. The reason for its success is that it never became the prime method for awarding club trophies. The method has never been accepted by the better sailors in the club which is understandable, but what it did do was to create additional interest for the sailors lower down the order, especially when a change to their handicap suggested that they had improved. At its height, two sets of results were declared at one of the club’s premiere events but the handicap result was very key, except for the odd time when one of the lesser skilled members beat the club champion (on handicap of course).
Comparisons with golf are not really valid. As Art says, golf uses one variable (the golfer) against one standard (the most perfect golfer every day) but in sailing we have three main variables, the crew, class of boat & weather, measured against a standard which is very difficult to justify.
Regards
Ralph
Home: +44 (0)1332 883 648
Mobile: +44 (0)7855 693 635
Skype: ralphtingle
···
From my own experience, I would advocate that clubs who wish to generate new interest should be encouraged to adopt a method of personal handicapping but be very careful how it is used. There is some merit in applying personal handicaps to award an additional trophy within class racing or using personal handicaps to establish divisions, but don’t forget that the premiere trophy should always go to the best sailor(s). The vast majority of less skilled sailors would be very embarrassed to be awarded a major trophy based on personal handicaps but would be very proud to be recognised as the best boat in Division 2 or 3.
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Art Engel
Sent: 23 February 2013 22:04
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Progressive / Personal Handicap
This gets down to the goal of a sailboat race. Should the best sailor
win OR should every boat have an equal chance of winning?
What is being referred to here as “personal handicapping,” but which
elsewhere is ofter referred to as “skipper handicapping” or “golf
handicapping,” pursues the latter goal. I think this works well in golf
because you can play against yourself and no one else - you judge your
performance by how far you are off of par. I don’t think it works as
well in sailing as there is no “par” to compare yourself to, just other
boats.
In theory, you could duplicate the goal of “golf handicapping” by simply
handing out trophies on a random basis after each race regardless of the
performance on the water. After all, the goal is to have every boat
cross the line exactly tied (after handicapping adjustments) so it
really should be up to chance as to who should win each race.
A “golf handicapping” system makes some sense for individual races but
it doesn’t make a lot of sense for series results, which are kind of
intended to measure long term success (rather than long-term random
results). We offer a “golf handicapping” system locally where I sail (it
attracts 20-25% of the boats) and one problem is boats intentionally
losing to benefit their handicap for future races of a series.
Another thought - in golf folks tend to measure their success by how low
their handicap is. By analogy, I would seriously consider giving series
trophies to the boat whose ending handicap is the farthest below the
base handicap for their boat. In other words, that is the boat that has
sailed the “best” compared to its base handicap.
Art
PS - To give an example of the problems that arise with a “golf
handicapping” system, we once had a boat that was last every race for an
entire season by large margins, we now believe intentionally. The next
year they started out the season with the handicap for a REALLY slow
boat. But, the second year they sailed normally and because of their
handicap won lots of races and the season championship. Its hard to
imagine someone blowing away a whole season of racing just to win
overall the next year but we’ve had it actually happen. Our system
changes the handicap after every race but only allows a movement of so
much per race.
On 2/23/2013 10:08 AM, Mike wrote:
Thanks for the heads-up, Jon, but I guess we will only find out what
adjustment algorithms are used after the dinghy show announcement?
FWIW my views on race-by-race adjustment are written here
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/message/9311> , but as I need to
hand over the Lancing SC handicapping job so someone else, I’m
interested to see the RYA’s approach.
Cheers
Mike
Lancing SC
Previous posting (from link):
+++++
Having used progressive personal handicap systems in the past (where
handicap for race N is based on results from races 1 to N-1 with some
sort of weighting) I came to the conclusion that, although a transparent
method (i.e. not influence of the handicapper, other than setting the
initial handicap) they didn’t really offer any other advantages over a
fixed, but occaisionally revised (like golf?) system. The main reasons
being that you never have enough data: too few races + relative dinghy
performance is so weather dependant (I wouldn’t recommend going there,
either!), so you either end up with a heavily damped adjustment term, or
the handicap is too dependant upon the last race sailed.
Now I just discuss handicaps with the main fleet captains at the start
of the season, and monitor the relative performances after each race
using the BCR output of Sailwave, plotting normalised (to mid fleet) BCR
as a % vs result. The aim being to get all within a narrow band, and not
the same sailors at the extremes each race.
HTH.
Mike
Lancing SC
+++++
In my club three people win all the trophies so I ran a personal handicap last year. You got two points off your handicap for every boat beaten and vice versa. It proved quite popular -not least with myself who managed to take a trophy in my otherwise hopelessly over-handicapped Weta. It was however hard work for the handicapper (me) and had a number of anomalies (don’t all systems?) One was that I could not update the handicaps between races on the the day so if someone had acquired a good handicap due, say, to a capsize the previous week, they might win all four races in the following weekend before the handicap responded. And then they would take a 100point hit on their handicap and never win anything again for six weeks.
Rgds
George Morris
···
----- Original Message -----
From:
Ralph Tingle
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 11:36 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Progressive / Personal Handicap
With some trepidation, I set up a simple personal handicap system ay my club some 15 years ago. As expected, most sailors felt that it would be a waste of time but to everyone’s surprise, it became quite a topic of conversation in the bar & I believe that it may still be running after all these years. The reason for its success is that it never became the prime method for awarding club trophies. The method has never been accepted by the better sailors in the club which is understandable, but what it did do was to create additional interest for the sailors lower down the order, especially when a change to their handicap suggested that they had improved. At its height, two sets of results were declared at one of the club’s premiere events but the handicap result was very key, except for the odd time when one of the lesser skilled members beat the club champion (on handicap of course).
Comparisons with golf are not really valid. As Art says, golf uses one variable (the golfer) against one standard (the most perfect golfer every day) but in sailing we have three main variables, the crew, class of boat & weather, measured against a standard which is very difficult to justify.
From my own experience, I would advocate that clubs who wish to generate new interest should be encouraged to adopt a method of personal handicapping but be very careful how it is used. There is some merit in applying personal handicaps to award an additional trophy within class racing or using personal handicaps to establish divisions, but don’t forget that the premiere trophy should always go to the best sailor(s). The vast majority of less skilled sailors would be very embarrassed to be awarded a major trophy based on personal handicaps but would be very proud to be recognised as the best boat in Division 2 or 3.
Regards
Ralph
Home: +44 (0)1332 883 648
Mobile: +44 (0)7855 693 635
Skype: ralphtingle
From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] ** On Behalf Of** Art Engel
Sent: 23 February 2013 22:04
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Progressive / Personal Handicap
This gets down to the goal of a sailboat race. Should the best sailor
win OR should every boat have an equal chance of winning?What is being referred to here as “personal handicapping,” but which
elsewhere is ofter referred to as “skipper handicapping” or “golf
handicapping,” pursues the latter goal. I think this works well in golf
because you can play against yourself and no one else - you judge your
performance by how far you are off of par. I don’t think it works as
well in sailing as there is no “par” to compare yourself to, just other
boats.In theory, you could duplicate the goal of “golf handicapping” by simply
handing out trophies on a random basis after each race regardless of the
performance on the water. After all, the goal is to have every boat
cross the line exactly tied (after handicapping adjustments) so it
really should be up to chance as to who should win each race.A “golf handicapping” system makes some sense for individual races but
it doesn’t make a lot of sense for series results, which are kind of
intended to measure long term success (rather than long-term random
results). We offer a “golf handicapping” system locally where I sail (it
attracts 20-25% of the boats) and one problem is boats intentionally
losing to benefit their handicap for future races of a series.Another thought - in golf folks tend to measure their success by how low
their handicap is. By analogy, I would seriously consider giving series
trophies to the boat whose ending handicap is the farthest below the
base handicap for their boat. In other words, that is the boat that has
sailed the “best” compared to its base handicap.Art
PS - To give an example of the problems that arise with a “golf
handicapping” system, we once had a boat that was last every race for an
entire season by large margins, we now believe intentionally. The next
year they started out the season with the handicap for a REALLY slow
boat. But, the second year they sailed normally and because of their
handicap won lots of races and the season championship. Its hard to
imagine someone blowing away a whole season of racing just to win
overall the next year but we’ve had it actually happen. Our system
changes the handicap after every race but only allows a movement of so
much per race.On 2/23/2013 10:08 AM, Mike wrote:
Thanks for the heads-up, Jon, but I guess we will only find out what
adjustment algorithms are used after the dinghy show announcement?
FWIW my views on race-by-race adjustment are written here
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/message/9311 > , but as I need to
hand over the Lancing SC handicapping job so someone else, I’m
interested to see the RYA’s approach.
Cheers
Mike
Lancing SCPrevious posting (from link):
+++++
Having used progressive personal handicap systems in the past (where
handicap for race N is based on results from races 1 to N-1 with some
sort of weighting) I came to the conclusion that, although a transparent
method (i.e. not influence of the handicapper, other than setting the
initial handicap) they didn’t really offer any other advantages over a
fixed, but occaisionally revised (like golf?) system. The main reasons
being that you never have enough data: too few races + relative dinghy
performance is so weather dependant (I wouldn’t recommend going there,
either!), so you either end up with a heavily damped adjustment term, or
the handicap is too dependant upon the last race sailed.Now I just discuss handicaps with the main fleet captains at the start
of the season, and monitor the relative performances after each race
using the BCR output of Sailwave, plotting normalised (to mid fleet) BCR
as a % vs result. The aim being to get all within a narrow band, and not
the same sailors at the extremes each race.
HTH.
Mike
Lancing SC
+++++
This gets down to the goal of a sailboat race. Should the best sailor
win OR should every boat have an equal chance of winning?
Both! If you go for strict one design racing and everyong has 100% identical equipment (olympics?) provided then you are down to the ‘best sailor’. But we don’t live in a world where we get boats provided - so is it fair that a sailor can improve their performance and appear better by buying a new sail?
What is being referred to here as “personal handicapping,” but which
elsewhere is ofter referred to as “skipper handicapping” or “golf
handicapping,” pursues the latter goal.
I’m not sure it is 100% personal handicapping. As a non-golfer I can’t be sure but the RYA system attached the handicap to the individual boat and not the helm and it only applies on that particular series. Does your golf handicap change if you buy a new set of carbon fibre super powered golf bats? Does it change if you play on Saturday and Weeknights? Does it change if you move venue?
So I think this is to some degree not purely attached to the skipper.
In theory, you could duplicate the goal of “golf handicapping” by simply
handing out trophies on a random basis after each race regardless of the
performance on the water. After all, the goal is to have every boat
cross the line exactly tied (after handicapping adjustments) so it
really should be up to chance as to who should win each race.
I think that crudely oveer simplifies it. To win you have to either do better than your boat was expected to, or everyone else has to do worse than expected.
If you are ‘the best’ sailor at your club you have little to try and beat. If you are the worst sailor at your club you may feel you cant get to be better because the gap is too far and you may (rightly or wrongly) feel there is an equipment divide rather than a skill divide, but have no money to buy the kit.
A “golf handicapping” system makes some sense for individual races but
it doesn’t make a lot of sense for series results, which are kind of
intended to measure long term success (rather than long-term random
results). We offer a “golf handicapping” system locally where I sail (it
attracts 20-25% of the boats) and one problem is boats intentionally
losing to benefit their handicap for future races of a series.
Only testing this new varient will tell… My gut feeling is for club racing where most sailors struggle to get enough races to qualify its going to be a brave sailor who throws a result hoping the handicap change is enough to benefit them later in weather conditions they can’t yet predict.
Another thought - in golf folks tend to measure their success by how low
their handicap is. By analogy, I would seriously consider giving series
trophies to the boat whose ending handicap is the farthest below the
base handicap for their boat. In other words, that is the boat that has
sailed the “best” compared to its base handicap.
Makes sense IF their boat isn’t ‘better’ than the baseline number.
PS - To give an example of the problems that arise with a “golf
handicapping” system, we once had a boat that was last every race for an
entire season by large margins, we now believe intentionally. The next
year they started out the season with the handicap for a REALLY slow
boat. But, the second year they sailed normally and because of their
handicap won lots of races and the season championship. Its hard to
imagine someone blowing away a whole season of racing just to win
overall the next year but we’ve had it actually happen. Our system
changes the handicap after every race but only allows a movement of so
much per race.
The RYA system is dynamic through the year. And resets to baseline the following year (or possibly following series?) SO - to do this you’d need to do really badly the first half of the series then improve dramatically. There are lots of reasons that could happen - new sails, repair to damage, coaching, adjustment to rigging, change in conditions. BUT I think its a hard strategy to achieve on purpose as you never know what’ll happen in later races with weather etc.
One of the things to remember about the RYA PY system is it is rarely used properly -= few clubs adjust numbers. Even those that do struggle when they have just 1 or 2 boats and either they are ‘personal’ handicapping those boats or not because they can’t know for sure the relative standard of the sailor.
In addition PY only works for the top 2/3rds of results everything else is an outlier. PY is trying to standardise all boats and their helms to a standard. So boats that tend to get ‘novice’ sailors are artificially underhandicapped. If you took a good but not race winning Musto Skiff sailor and put them in a Mirror, GP14 etc you would expect them to probably do very well because the Mirror and GP handicaps are probably slowed down by a mixture of older boats and less experienced helms. Now put the best sailor from the Mirror fleet in the MPS and you wouldn’t expect them to win, because I’m assuming the majority of MPS sailors are better than the best club Mirror sailor…
···
On 2013-02-23 22:04, Art Engel wrote:
The Dart class used to give prizes for the best performance - they had a system that calculated the theoretical finishing place of each boat and awarded a prize to the boat that finshed the furthest above that theoretical place. As you got higher in the fleet the harder it got to win that particular prize.
Gordon
···
On 23/02/2013 23:36, Ralph Tingle wrote:
With some trepidation, I set up a simple personal handicap system ay my club some 15 years ago. As expected, most sailors felt that it would be a waste of time but to everyone's surprise, it became quite a topic of conversation in the bar & I believe that it may still be running after all these years. The reason for its success is that it never became the prime method for awarding club trophies. The method has never been accepted by the better sailors in the club which is understandable, but what it did do was to create additional interest for the sailors lower down the order, especially when a change to their handicap suggested that they had improved. At its height, two sets of results were declared at one of the club's premiere events but the handicap result was very key, except for the odd time when one of the lesser skilled members beat the club champion (on handicap of course).
Comparisons with golf are not really valid. As Art says, golf uses one variable (the golfer) against one standard (the most perfect golfer every day) but in sailing we have three main variables, the crew, class of boat & weather, measured against a standard which is very difficult to justify.
From my own experience, I would advocate that clubs who wish to generate new interest should be encouraged to adopt a method of personal handicapping but be very careful how it is used. There is some merit in applying personal handicaps to award an _additional_ trophy within class racing or using personal handicaps to establish divisions, but don't forget that the premiere trophy should always go to the best sailor(s). The vast majority of less skilled sailors would be very embarrassed to be awarded a major trophy based on personal handicaps but would be very proud to be recognised as the best boat in Division 2 or 3.
Regards
Ralph
Home: +44 (0)1332 883 648
Mobile: +44 (0)7855 693 635
Skype: ralphtingle
*From:*sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Art Engel
*Sent:* 23 February 2013 22:04
*To:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com
*Subject:* Re: [sailwave] Re: Progressive / Personal HandicapThis gets down to the goal of a sailboat race. Should the best sailor
win OR should every boat have an equal chance of winning?What is being referred to here as "personal handicapping," but which
elsewhere is ofter referred to as "skipper handicapping" or "golf
handicapping," pursues the latter goal. I think this works well in golf
because you can play against yourself and no one else - you judge your
performance by how far you are off of par. I don't think it works as
well in sailing as there is no "par" to compare yourself to, just other
boats.In theory, you could duplicate the goal of "golf handicapping" by simply
handing out trophies on a random basis after each race regardless of the
performance on the water. After all, the goal is to have every boat
cross the line exactly tied (after handicapping adjustments) so it
really should be up to chance as to who should win each race.A "golf handicapping" system makes some sense for individual races but
it doesn't make a lot of sense for series results, which are kind of
intended to measure long term success (rather than long-term random
results). We offer a "golf handicapping" system locally where I sail (it
attracts 20-25% of the boats) and one problem is boats intentionally
losing to benefit their handicap for future races of a series.Another thought - in golf folks tend to measure their success by how low
their handicap is. By analogy, I would seriously consider giving series
trophies to the boat whose ending handicap is the farthest below the
base handicap for their boat. In other words, that is the boat that has
sailed the "best" compared to its base handicap.Art
PS - To give an example of the problems that arise with a "golf
handicapping" system, we once had a boat that was last every race for an
entire season by large margins, we now believe intentionally. The next
year they started out the season with the handicap for a REALLY slow
boat. But, the second year they sailed normally and because of their
handicap won lots of races and the season championship. Its hard to
imagine someone blowing away a whole season of racing just to win
overall the next year but we've had it actually happen. Our system
changes the handicap after every race but only allows a movement of so
much per race.On 2/23/2013 10:08 AM, Mike wrote:
> Thanks for the heads-up, Jon, but I guess we will only find out what
> adjustment algorithms are used after the dinghy show announcement?
> FWIW my views on race-by-race adjustment are written here
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/message/9311> , but as I need to
> hand over the Lancing SC handicapping job so someone else, I'm
> interested to see the RYA's approach.
> Cheers
> Mike
> Lancing SCPrevious posting (from link):
+++++
Having used progressive personal handicap systems in the past (where
handicap for race N is based on results from races 1 to N-1 with some
sort of weighting) I came to the conclusion that, although a transparent
method (i.e. not influence of the handicapper, other than setting the
initial handicap) they didn't really offer any other advantages over a
fixed, but occaisionally revised (like golf?) system. The main reasons
being that you never have enough data: too few races + relative dinghy
performance is so weather dependant (I wouldn't recommend going there,
either!), so you either end up with a heavily damped adjustment term, or
the handicap is too dependant upon the last race sailed.Now I just discuss handicaps with the main fleet captains at the start
of the season, and monitor the relative performances after each race
using the BCR output of Sailwave, plotting normalised (to mid fleet) BCR
as a % vs result. The aim being to get all within a narrow band, and not
the same sailors at the extremes each race.
HTH.
Mike
Lancing SC
+++++
Jon
I am the Handicapper at Flushing Sailing Club and a long time user of Sailwave. Together with all of the Cruiser racing clubs in Cornwall we have been in discussion with Bas at the RYA and waiting for the NHC to be released for testing, which Bas has said is this weekend. A key part of it is the Sailwave plugin. I would be delighted to participate in testing and have plenty of Cruiser results.
Regards Mike Swingler
···
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "JON" <jon@...> wrote:
For anyone interested in how it will work I've written some preliminary
documentation which is available at:
NHC Preliminary Documentation
<https://sites.google.com/site/eskdalesite/home/nhc>Jon
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mike.croker@> wrote:
>
>
> --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Jon Eskdale jon@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi William,
> >
> > That is what this NHC does although initially designed for cruisers.
> There
> > are two models one for Club racing and one for Regattas. You would
be
> > looking at a Club racing model. This NHC works by having a Base
> rating
> > which is set by the RYA and lets say we have a boat that competes in
> the
> > Wednesday night series and a Sunday Series.
> >
> > After each race their handicap gets adjusted based on performance of
> the
> > race. The series are separate so their Wednesday night handicap
will
> be
> > different from their Sunday handicap as the conditions are typically
> > different for evening racing. At the end of the series a carried
> forward
> > handicap is calculated which they will use if they compete in the
next
> > Wednesday evening series and another carried forward is calculated
and
> used
> > for the next Sunday series.
>
> Thanks for the heads-up, Jon, but I guess we will only find out what
> adjustment algorithms are used after the dinghy show announcement?
> FWIW my views on race-by-race adjustment are written here
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/message/9311> , but as I need
to
> hand over the Lancing SC handicapping job so someone else, I'm
> interested to see the RYA's approach.
> Cheers
> Mike
> Lancing SC
>
Hi Mike,
I’ve just had the go ahead to release a Beta version from the RYA today and have just uploaded the install to the Sailwave site.
I’m just about to write the release document
The download is at http://sailwave.com/download/sailwave/sw2_9_3.exe
···
Give me a call if you want to discuss on
03333 443377
07976 709777
I’m at the Dinghy show all this weekend on the Sailing Software Alliance stand if you are going
I should be down your way next weekend if you want to discuss it more.
Regards
Jon
On 1 March 2013 15:40, Mike mswingler1@gmail.com wrote:
Jon
I am the Handicapper at Flushing Sailing Club and a long time user of Sailwave. Together with all of the Cruiser racing clubs in Cornwall we have been in discussion with Bas at the RYA and waiting for the NHC to be released for testing, which Bas has said is this weekend. A key part of it is the Sailwave plugin. I would be delighted to participate in testing and have plenty of Cruiser results.Regards Mike Swingler
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, “JON” wrote:
For anyone interested in how it will work I’ve written some preliminary
documentation which is available at:
NHC Preliminary Documentation
Jon
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, “Mike” wrote:
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Jon Eskdale jon@ wrote:
Hi William,
That is what this NHC does although initially designed for cruisers.
There
are two models one for Club racing and one for Regattas. You would
be
looking at a Club racing model. This NHC works by having a Base
rating
which is set by the RYA and lets say we have a boat that competes in
the
Wednesday night series and a Sunday Series.
After each race their handicap gets adjusted based on performance of
the
race. The series are separate so their Wednesday night handicap
will
be
different from their Sunday handicap as the conditions are typically
different for evening racing. At the end of the series a carried
forward
handicap is calculated which they will use if they compete in the
next
Wednesday evening series and another carried forward is calculated
and
used
for the next Sunday series.
Thanks for the heads-up, Jon, but I guess we will only find out what
adjustment algorithms are used after the dinghy show announcement?
FWIW my views on race-by-race adjustment are written here
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/message/9311> , but as I need
to
hand over the Lancing SC handicapping job so someone else, I’m
interested to see the RYA’s approach.
Cheers
Mike
Lancing SC
Hi Jon
Sorry, have n ot had any spare
time this week to look at the software.� Apologies if I gave the impression that I would be able to
look at it pre-rel ease, but we made
a last minute d ecision
to get our cruiser lifted out d ue
to the relatively calm weather .�
I will try and find time next week, and if anything nasty po ps
up you will be the first (and only) person to hear about it.
Cheers
···
On 01/03/2013 16:35, Jon Eskdale wrote:
Hi Mike,
I've just had the go ahead to release a Beta versionfrom the RYA today and have just uploaded the install to
the Sailwave site.
I’m just about to write the release document
The download is at�**http://sailwave.com/download/sailwave/sw2_9_3.exe**
Give me a call if you want todiscuss on
03333 443377
07976 709777
I'm at the Dinghy show all thisweekend on the Sailing Software Alliance stand if you
are going
I should be down your way nextweekend if you want to discuss it more.
Regards
Jon
On 1 March 2013 15:40, Mike mswingler1@gmail.com
wrote:�
Jon I am the Handicapper at Flushing SailingClub and a long time user of Sailwave.
Together with all of the Cruiser racing
clubs in Cornwall we have been in
discussion with Bas at the RYA and waiting
for the NHC to be released for testing,
which Bas has said is this weekend. A key
part of it is the Sailwave plugin. I would
be delighted to participate in testing and
have plenty of Cruiser results.
Regards Mike Swingler
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com ,
“JON” wrote:> > > > For anyone interested in how it willwork I’ve written some preliminary
> documentation which is available at: > NHC Preliminary Documentation
> > Jon > > --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com ,“Mike” wrote:
> > > > > > --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com ,Jon Eskdale jon@ wrote:
> > > > > > Hi William, > > > > > > That is what this NHCdoes although initially designed for
cruisers.> > There > > > are two models one forClub racing and one for Regattas. You
would> be > > > looking at a Club racingmodel. This NHC works by having a Base
> > rating > > > which is set by the RYAand lets say we have a boat that
competes in> > the > > > Wednesday night seriesand a Sunday Series.
> > > > > > After each race theirhandicap gets adjusted based on
performance of> > the > > > race. The series areseparate so their Wednesday night
handicap> will > > be > > > different from theirSunday handicap as the conditions are
typically> > > different for eveningracing. At the end of the series a
carried> > forward > > > handicap is calculatedwhich they will use if they compete in
the> next > > > Wednesday evening seriesand another carried forward is
calculated> and > > used > > > for the next Sundayseries.
> > > > Thanks for the heads-up, Jon,but I guess we will only find out what
> > adjustment algorithms are usedafter the dinghy show announcement?
> > FWIW my views on race-by-raceadjustment are written here
> > [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/message/9311](http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/message/9311) >, but as I need
> to > > hand over the Lancing SChandicapping job so someone else, I’m
> > interested to see the RYA'sapproach.
> > Cheers > > Mike > > Lancing SC > > >
Jon
I should have added, 'hope the launch & show goes well'!
Cheers
···
Mike
Hi Jon
I have been testing this afternoon using a series from 2012, working through each race from R1 one at a time and inputting as if a real race. All went well until Race 8, when despite all settings remaining the same, the next race handicaps all reverted to the base number. The SW helper pop up did not come up after Race 7. Up to R7 the pop up had come up each time and I had printed off each Excel of the Race.
I am using the external/debug mode. I am not using alias.
Regards Mike Swingler
···
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Jon Eskdale <jon@...> wrote:
Hi Mike,
I've just had the go ahead to release a Beta version from the RYA today and
have just uploaded the install to the Sailwave site.I'm just about to write the release document
The download is at *http://sailwave.com/download/sailwave/sw2_9_3.exe*
Give me a call if you want to discuss on
03333 443377
07976 709777I'm at the Dinghy show all this weekend on the Sailing Software Alliance
stand if you are going
I should be down your way next weekend if you want to discuss it more.Regards
Jon
On 1 March 2013 15:40, Mike <mswingler1@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
>
> Jon
> I am the Handicapper at Flushing Sailing Club and a long time user of
> Sailwave. Together with all of the Cruiser racing clubs in Cornwall we have
> been in discussion with Bas at the RYA and waiting for the NHC to be
> released for testing, which Bas has said is this weekend. A key part of it
> is the Sailwave plugin. I would be delighted to participate in testing and
> have plenty of Cruiser results.
> Regards Mike Swingler
> --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "JON" wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > For anyone interested in how it will work I've written some preliminary
> > documentation which is available at:
> > NHC Preliminary Documentation
> > https://sites.google.com/site/eskdalesite/home/nhc>
> >
> > Jon
>
> >
> > --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Jon Eskdale jon@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi William,
> > > >
> > > > That is what this NHC does although initially designed for cruisers.
> > > There
> > > > are two models one for Club racing and one for Regattas. You would
> > be
> > > > looking at a Club racing model. This NHC works by having a Base
> > > rating
> > > > which is set by the RYA and lets say we have a boat that competes in
> > > the
> > > > Wednesday night series and a Sunday Series.
> > > >
> > > > After each race their handicap gets adjusted based on performance of
> > > the
> > > > race. The series are separate so their Wednesday night handicap
> > will
> > > be
> > > > different from their Sunday handicap as the conditions are typically
> > > > different for evening racing. At the end of the series a carried
> > > forward
> > > > handicap is calculated which they will use if they compete in the
> > next
> > > > Wednesday evening series and another carried forward is calculated
> > and
> > > used
> > > > for the next Sunday series.
> > >
> > > Thanks for the heads-up, Jon, but I guess we will only find out what
> > > adjustment algorithms are used after the dinghy show announcement?
> > > FWIW my views on race-by-race adjustment are written here
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/message/9311> , but as I need
> > to
> > > hand over the Lancing SC handicapping job so someone else, I'm
> > > interested to see the RYA's approach.
> > > Cheers
> > > Mike
> > > Lancing SC
> > >
> >
>
>
>