regarding the high points scoring system notably chips my understand is that boats who decide to sail get penalized if other boats do not sail. handicaping type system seems to me to be. others deciding not to sail is an outside influence not a sailing matter, which can not be controlled. is it fair that you should get less points and your score worth less if others do not sail? is it fair that it might be chllenging conditions sailing that day but cause boats decide not to sail your score is virtually worthless for that race. chips like most high points scoring systems has out side influences like numbers sailing which affect race results. thought sailing was about sailing and not outside factiors. thats why i dislike chips
david440549 wrote:
regarding the high points scoring system notably chips my understand is
that boats who decide to sail get penalized if other boats do not sail.
handicaping type system seems to me to be. others deciding not to sail
is an outside influence not a sailing matter, which can not be
controlled. is it fair that you should get less points and your score
worth less if others do not sail? is it fair that it might be chllenging
conditions sailing that day but cause boats decide not to sail your
score is virtually worthless for that race. chips like most high points
scoring systems has out side influences like numbers sailing which
affect race results. thought sailing was about sailing and not outside
factiors. thats why i dislike chips
There was quite an extensive debate on here of CHIPS and other systems
back at the turn of the year I think.
The short summary is -
Yes CHIPS makes points less valuable if less boats sail. One way to
look at that is that you get punished for others not sailing. Another
way to look at it that beating 20 boats may be more of an achievement
than beating 2.
"thought sailing was about sailing and not outside factiors."
Well if its just about being able to move your boat through the water
fastest then all the tactics that take place at marks are irrelevant
too... It may be that CHIPS introduces new tactics... But so does High
Points - Instead of deciding NOT to sail in challenging weather I might
decide to sail in high points if there are only 3 boats going out and
I'm the fourth it guarantees me a 4th place (which is usually better
than I manage anyway!!)
Calum
David's original posting had a point but he got it backwards - it is the
large-race sailors that are disadvantaged under CHIPS.
Calum's posting didn't tell the whole story in my view (but he was
correct that there have been prior discussions of the issues here).
Pure low-point and pure high-point systems incorporate a systematic
bias. Low-point favors boats that sail with fewer competitors while
high-point favors boats that sail with more competitors. CHIPS is
neither but assigns points in such a way that it favors fewer
competitors.
For example, a statistician would probably say that generally the middle
boat in any race is "typical" (I won't use "average" because that means
something technical). It seems to me that a middle "typical" boat should
always get approximately the same score. CHIPS doesn't do that. In a
3-boat race the middle boat gets 77.5 pts; 3rd of 5 gets 71.4 pts; 6th
of 11 gets 61.2 pts; 10th of 19 gets 56.3 pts. As you can see, smaller
fleets are favored. [Last place is similar: 3-boats = 65.0; 5-boats =
50.1; 11-boats = 25.2; 19-boats = 13.3.] The last-place boat in a 3-boat
race gets more points than the middle boat in an 11-boat race! That
doesn't seem right, especially since the latter boat actually beat 5
other boats.
Analyzing CHIPS under a fairness standard, one would have to say that it
assumes that when fewer sailors come out they are MUCH better than
"typical" and therefore deserve extra points. Personally, I doubt that
assumption is very accurate.
One could argue that CHIPS creates an incentive for sailors to come out
when they think that others won't, thereby increasing overall
participation. That might be. However, I see two significant problems
with that. First, the bias is far too much to be fair even if it does
tend to increase participation. Second, CHIPS is apparently not
understood by the competitors anyway (I should think David's
misunderstanding of where the bias lies would be a good demonstration of
that). If the bias isn't clear and well understood then it cannot act as
an incentive.
Art
david440549 wrote:
>
>
>
> regarding the high points scoring system notably chips my understand
is
> that boats who decide to sail get penalized if other boats do not
sail.
> handicaping type system seems to me to be. others deciding not to
sail
> is an outside influence not a sailing matter, which can not be
> controlled. is it fair that you should get less points and your
score
> worth less if others do not sail? is it fair that it might be
chllenging
> conditions sailing that day but cause boats decide not to sail your
> score is virtually worthless for that race. chips like most high
points
> scoring systems has out side influences like numbers sailing which
> affect race results. thought sailing was about sailing and not
outside
> factiors. thats why i dislike chips
>There was quite an extensive debate on here of CHIPS and other systems
back at the turn of the year I think.The short summary is -
Yes CHIPS makes points less valuable if less boats sail. One way to
look at that is that you get punished for others not sailing. Another
way to look at it that beating 20 boats may be more of an achievement
than beating 2."thought sailing was about sailing and not outside factiors."
Well if its just about being able to move your boat through the water
fastest then all the tactics that take place at marks are irrelevant
too... It may be that CHIPS introduces new tactics... But so does
High
Points - Instead of deciding NOT to sail in challenging weather I
might
ยทยทยท
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Calum Polwart <yahoo@...> wrote:
decide to sail in high points if there are only 3 boats going out and
I'm the fourth it guarantees me a 4th place (which is usually better
than I manage anyway!!)Calum
I totally understand chips though my main point was that this type of system is hanicaping boats for others sailing or not. the bigger the fleets the more points u get. Thats an outside influence., meaning how can u control numbers racing u can't. Wheres the skill in getting more points for bigger fleets. If i wanted to be handicaped i would of sailed in the handicap fleet.
You shouldn't get more points for more sailing. Not your fault if others don't race is it???