Race tie with penalty

Hi Bruce,

I agree that one thing is clear, ties should not be resolved if they *only*
result in the same points after a penalty has been applied; because that
could result in an innocent boat's point being increased; clearly that would
be unfair.

As for the case with a real tie and a penalty; if you decide on a way
forward perhaps you could let me know and I'll make sure that Sailwave
complies.

My own feeling is that the application of a penalty (which may be applied
late) should not affect another boats score - which results in applying race
ties based on finishes (including the penalty boats if there are any) and
then adding the penalty points; i.e. if you took the penalty away, the
results would reflect how the boats sailed.

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Huckaba [mailto:bhuckaba@ussailing.net]
Sent: 20 August 2005 17:17
To: Colin Jenkins
Subject: RE: Race tie with penalty

Colin,

I had read this also, but I do not believe it applies in this case. This
note is to keep people from trying to apply A7 when "when the TIE in race
scores RESULTS FROM a grant of redress or the application of a scoring
penalty." This addresses when scoring penalties produce a tie score, not
when the boats tied before penalty was applied.

I can see the argument that A7 comes after A5, where the Race committee
applies SCP or ZFP. Or the argument that the boat committed a
rules breach
before finishing, so the penalties should be applied before
considering the
tie.

So, if the ZFP boat filed for redress and the protest committee determined
that she was not over in the last minute, would that change the score from
1,2,4(ZFP) to 1,2.5,2.5? That might come as a surprise to the other boat
who never realize that she was tied in the first place.

Thanks for you help on this. I believe the rules are ambiguous on this
(like they used to be on series tie breaking) and it's only by talking to
people that do scoring that I can find out why they chose their
interpretation.

Thanks, Bruce

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 2:43 AM
To: bhuckaba@ussailing.net
Subject: RE: Race tie with penalty

Hi Bruce,

>From the guidelines:-

"Note: As provided in rules A6(b) and 44.3(c), the �split the points�
principle of the first sentence of A7 does not apply when the tie in race
scores results from a grant of redress or the application of a scoring
penalty."

So the sequence should be: if there are race ties, split the poins and
*then* add any scoring penalties; is that how you read it...?

Colin
www.sailwave.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Huckaba [mailto:bhuckaba@ussailing.net]
> Sent: 20 August 2005 00:48
> To: Colin Jenkins
> Subject: RE: Race tie with penalty
>
>
> Colin,
>
> Your examples indicate that Sailwave applies the scoring penalty before
> considering the race tie (giving the unpenalized boat 2 instead of 2.5).
>
> The version I have is 1.57. It seems apply race tie braking
> first and have
> a problem with the 7 boat fleet. For seven boats it produces:
> 1,2.5,4(SCP),4,5,6,7.
>
> I agree that RRS is ambigous. So far I've gotten three
different opinions
> on how this should be scored for 10 boats:
> 1,2,4(SCP)...
> 1,2.5, 4(SCP)...
> 1,2.5, 4.5(SCP)...
>
> I'm trying to get a definitive answer. Do you happen to remember who
> advised you?
>
>
> Thanks, Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 1:52 AM
> To: bhuckaba@ussailing.net
> Cc: Sailwave User Group
> Subject: RE: Race tie with penalty
>
>
> Hi Bruce,
>
> I've been on holiday and am working my way through a mountain
of email...
>
> In the 10 boat case I would expect the penalty to be points for
2nd place
> (20% of 10 is 2.0 == 2) and in the 7 boat case I would expect the
> penalty to
> be points for 1st place (20% = 1.4 == 1). (The RRS explicitly
> say rounding
> to the nearest 0.5.)
>
> So the final points would be 1,2,4(SCP),4,5,6,7,8,9,10 and
> 1,2,3(SCP),4,5,6,7.
>
> The latest version of Sailwave (1.82) distributed to the Sailwave
> User Group
> seems to do this.
>
> www.sailwave/com/binary/sw182.exe
>
> I don't know if 1.57 produces the same result or not - it's very
> old now and
> due for replacement...
>
> Regards,
> Colin
> www.sailwave.com
>
> PS: I've always thought the RRS are a little ambigious about when
> to average
> tied points... I seem to remember taking advice from RYA/USSA.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bruce Huckaba [mailto:bhuckaba@ussailing.net]
> > Sent: 19 August 2005 04:02
> > To: colin@sailwave.com
> > Subject: Race tie with penalty
> >
> >
> > Colin,
> >
> > I posted this on your board and haven't gotten a reply. You may
> > be busy or
> > don't want to post to the forum without a little research.
> > Anyway, here is
> > my question again.
> >
> > I have been asked about how to handle the following situation,
> > assuming that race ties are handled as average points.
> >
> > two boats, A and B, tie for 2nd in the first race in a 10 boat
> > fleet. B is also subject to a 20% penalty.
> >
> > How does Sailwave handle this situation?
> >
> > I seem to get different results depending on how many boats are in the
> > fleet. Sailwave gives me the answer I expect for 10 boats, but
> > does not for
> > 7.
> >
> > I would appreciate a reply, even is it isn't definitive.
> >
> > Thanks, Bruce
> > US Sailing Scoring Review
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date:
22/07/2005
> >
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005
>
>
>
>
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005
>
--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005

--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005

--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005

Hi
Only just picked up the significance of Bruce's query & not sure if it differs from your final
conclusions.

I have applied App A & 44.3(c) to Bruce's example

APPLICATION OF RRS
Example: 2 boats (A & B) tie for 2nd place in a 10 boat race.
Penalty: Boat B is given a 20% Z flag penalty

A7: A & B should be awarded 2.5 points each (2+3)/2
Race points: 1.0; (A)2.5; (B)2.5; 4.0; 5.0 ....

44.3(c): B is penalised an additional 2 points (10*20%=2.0 to nearest whole number)
Note: In a 7 boat fleet, the penalty would be 1 point (7*20%=1.4 rounded down)
Race Points: 1.0; (A)2.5; 4.0; (B)4.5; 5.0 ......

Interpretation: A7 is very clear that ties can only occur at the finish line (ie dead heat in class
racing) or after applying a handicap (ie corrected times are exactly the same)
I cannot find anywhere in RRS that says that tied points must be rounded so boat A should always be
scored as 2.5

SAILWAVE SCORING
When I score this in SW, the following happens

Recording places through Sail No Wizard & scoring the regatta produces:
1.0; (A)2.5; (B)2.5; 4.0; 5.0 .....

Changing B to ZFP & rescoring the regatta produces:
1.0; (A)2.0; (B)4.0; 4.0; 5.0 .....

Colin: I think SW may be wrong, you say: "(The RRS explicitly say rounding to the nearest 0.5.)"
44.3(c) says (when calculating penalty points)".....the number shall be the whole number (rounding
0.5 upward)....."

Also 44.3(c) says "the scores of other boats shall not be changed...." which I interpret to mean
that Boat A should always score 2.5 points, especially as A7 simply says "add together and divide
equally" with no reference to rounding

This is obviously my own interpretation but if others disagree, I will be happy to write to RYA to
get a definitive answer on the example

Regards
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 22 August 2005 07:45
To: bhuckaba@ussailing.net
Cc: Sailwave User Group
Subject: [sailwave] RE: Race tie with penalty

Hi Bruce,

I agree that one thing is clear, ties should not be resolved if they *only*
result in the same points after a penalty has been applied; because that
could result in an innocent boat's point being increased; clearly that would
be unfair.

As for the case with a real tie and a penalty; if you decide on a way
forward perhaps you could let me know and I'll make sure that Sailwave
complies.

My own feeling is that the application of a penalty (which may be applied
late) should not affect another boats score - which results in applying race
ties based on finishes (including the penalty boats if there are any) and
then adding the penalty points; i.e. if you took the penalty away, the
results would reflect how the boats sailed.

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Huckaba [mailto:bhuckaba@ussailing.net]
Sent: 20 August 2005 17:17
To: Colin Jenkins
Subject: RE: Race tie with penalty

Colin,

I had read this also, but I do not believe it applies in this case. This
note is to keep people from trying to apply A7 when "when the TIE in race
scores RESULTS FROM a grant of redress or the application of a scoring
penalty." This addresses when scoring penalties produce a tie score, not
when the boats tied before penalty was applied.

I can see the argument that A7 comes after A5, where the Race committee
applies SCP or ZFP. Or the argument that the boat committed a
rules breach
before finishing, so the penalties should be applied before
considering the
tie.

So, if the ZFP boat filed for redress and the protest committee determined
that she was not over in the last minute, would that change the score from
1,2,4(ZFP) to 1,2.5,2.5? That might come as a surprise to the other boat
who never realize that she was tied in the first place.

Thanks for you help on this. I believe the rules are ambiguous on this
(like they used to be on series tie breaking) and it's only by talking to
people that do scoring that I can find out why they chose their
interpretation.

Thanks, Bruce

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 2:43 AM
To: bhuckaba@ussailing.net
Subject: RE: Race tie with penalty

Hi Bruce,

>From the guidelines:-

"Note: As provided in rules A6(b) and 44.3(c), the �split the points�
principle of the first sentence of A7 does not apply when the tie in race
scores results from a grant of redress or the application of a scoring
penalty."

So the sequence should be: if there are race ties, split the poins and
*then* add any scoring penalties; is that how you read it...?

Colin
www.sailwave.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Huckaba [mailto:bhuckaba@ussailing.net]
> Sent: 20 August 2005 00:48
> To: Colin Jenkins
> Subject: RE: Race tie with penalty
>
>
> Colin,
>
> Your examples indicate that Sailwave applies the scoring penalty before
> considering the race tie (giving the unpenalized boat 2 instead of 2.5).
>
> The version I have is 1.57. It seems apply race tie braking
> first and have
> a problem with the 7 boat fleet. For seven boats it produces:
> 1,2.5,4(SCP),4,5,6,7.
>
> I agree that RRS is ambigous. So far I've gotten three
different opinions
> on how this should be scored for 10 boats:
> 1,2,4(SCP)...
> 1,2.5, 4(SCP)...
> 1,2.5, 4.5(SCP)...
>
> I'm trying to get a definitive answer. Do you happen to remember who
> advised you?
>
>
> Thanks, Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 1:52 AM
> To: bhuckaba@ussailing.net
> Cc: Sailwave User Group
> Subject: RE: Race tie with penalty
>
>
> Hi Bruce,
>
> I've been on holiday and am working my way through a mountain
of email...
>
> In the 10 boat case I would expect the penalty to be points for
2nd place
> (20% of 10 is 2.0 == 2) and in the 7 boat case I would expect the
> penalty to
> be points for 1st place (20% = 1.4 == 1). (The RRS explicitly
> say rounding
> to the nearest 0.5.)
>
> So the final points would be 1,2,4(SCP),4,5,6,7,8,9,10 and
> 1,2,3(SCP),4,5,6,7.
>
> The latest version of Sailwave (1.82) distributed to the Sailwave
> User Group
> seems to do this.
>
> www.sailwave/com/binary/sw182.exe
>
> I don't know if 1.57 produces the same result or not - it's very
> old now and
> due for replacement...
>
> Regards,
> Colin
> www.sailwave.com
>
> PS: I've always thought the RRS are a little ambigious about when
> to average
> tied points... I seem to remember taking advice from RYA/USSA.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bruce Huckaba [mailto:bhuckaba@ussailing.net]
> > Sent: 19 August 2005 04:02
> > To: colin@sailwave.com
> > Subject: Race tie with penalty
> >
> >
> > Colin,
> >
> > I posted this on your board and haven't gotten a reply. You may
> > be busy or
> > don't want to post to the forum without a little research.
> > Anyway, here is
> > my question again.
> >
> > I have been asked about how to handle the following situation,
> > assuming that race ties are handled as average points.
> >
> > two boats, A and B, tie for 2nd in the first race in a 10 boat
> > fleet. B is also subject to a 20% penalty.
> >
> > How does Sailwave handle this situation?
> >
> > I seem to get different results depending on how many boats are in the
> > fleet. Sailwave gives me the answer I expect for 10 boats, but
> > does not for
> > 7.
> >
> > I would appreciate a reply, even is it isn't definitive.
> >
> > Thanks, Bruce
> > US Sailing Scoring Review
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date:
22/07/2005
> >
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005
>
>
>
>
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005
>
--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005

--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005

--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005

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Hi Ralph,

I agree with your interpretation; it's essentially what I said to Brice in
my last msg, except yours is described much better! I'll probably tweak
Sailwave even if Brice doesn't come back to us. NB: when I was talking
about rounding, I was referring to working out the penalty places, not the
shared points...

Essentially the sequence should be: 1. assign points sharing as necessary
for true race ties. 2. apply penalties.

There is one tiny issue however - if a boat that sailed correctly tied at
the finish line with another boat that had incurred penalties, it's possible
that the non-penalty boat could feed a bit pissed off that her points are
increased because of the tie...

Colin
www.sailwave.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 22 August 2005 11:33
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RE: Race tie with penalty - Alternative View

Hi
Only just picked up the significance of Bruce's query & not sure
if it differs from your final
conclusions.

I have applied App A & 44.3(c) to Bruce's example

APPLICATION OF RRS
Example: 2 boats (A & B) tie for 2nd place in a 10 boat race.
Penalty: Boat B is given a 20% Z flag penalty

A7: A & B should be awarded 2.5 points each (2+3)/2
Race points: 1.0; (A)2.5; (B)2.5; 4.0; 5.0 ....

44.3(c): B is penalised an additional 2 points (10*20%=2.0 to
nearest whole number)
Note: In a 7 boat fleet, the penalty would be 1 point (7*20%=1.4
rounded down)
Race Points: 1.0; (A)2.5; 4.0; (B)4.5; 5.0 ......

Interpretation: A7 is very clear that ties can only occur at the
finish line (ie dead heat in class
racing) or after applying a handicap (ie corrected times are
exactly the same)
I cannot find anywhere in RRS that says that tied points must be
rounded so boat A should always be
scored as 2.5

SAILWAVE SCORING
When I score this in SW, the following happens

Recording places through Sail No Wizard & scoring the regatta produces:
1.0; (A)2.5; (B)2.5; 4.0; 5.0 .....

Changing B to ZFP & rescoring the regatta produces:
1.0; (A)2.0; (B)4.0; 4.0; 5.0 .....

Colin: I think SW may be wrong, you say: "(The RRS explicitly say
rounding to the nearest 0.5.)"
44.3(c) says (when calculating penalty points)".....the number
shall be the whole number (rounding
0.5 upward)....."

Also 44.3(c) says "the scores of other boats shall not be
changed...." which I interpret to mean
that Boat A should always score 2.5 points, especially as A7
simply says "add together and divide
equally" with no reference to rounding

This is obviously my own interpretation but if others disagree, I
will be happy to write to RYA to
get a definitive answer on the example

Regards
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 22 August 2005 07:45
To: bhuckaba@ussailing.net
Cc: Sailwave User Group
Subject: [sailwave] RE: Race tie with penalty

Hi Bruce,

I agree that one thing is clear, ties should not be resolved if
they *only*
result in the same points after a penalty has been applied; because that
could result in an innocent boat's point being increased; clearly
that would
be unfair.

As for the case with a real tie and a penalty; if you decide on a way
forward perhaps you could let me know and I'll make sure that Sailwave
complies.

My own feeling is that the application of a penalty (which may be applied
late) should not affect another boats score - which results in
applying race
ties based on finishes (including the penalty boats if there are any) and
then adding the penalty points; i.e. if you took the penalty away, the
results would reflect how the boats sailed.

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Huckaba [mailto:bhuckaba@ussailing.net]
> Sent: 20 August 2005 17:17
> To: Colin Jenkins
> Subject: RE: Race tie with penalty
>
>
> Colin,
>
> I had read this also, but I do not believe it applies in this
case. This
> note is to keep people from trying to apply A7 when "when the
TIE in race
> scores RESULTS FROM a grant of redress or the application of a scoring
> penalty." This addresses when scoring penalties produce a tie
score, not
> when the boats tied before penalty was applied.
>
> I can see the argument that A7 comes after A5, where the Race committee
> applies SCP or ZFP. Or the argument that the boat committed a
> rules breach
> before finishing, so the penalties should be applied before
> considering the
> tie.
>
> So, if the ZFP boat filed for redress and the protest committee
determined
> that she was not over in the last minute, would that change the
score from
> 1,2,4(ZFP) to 1,2.5,2.5? That might come as a surprise to the
other boat
> who never realize that she was tied in the first place.
>
> Thanks for you help on this. I believe the rules are ambiguous on this
> (like they used to be on series tie breaking) and it's only by
talking to
> people that do scoring that I can find out why they chose their
> interpretation.
>
> Thanks, Bruce
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
> Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 2:43 AM
> To: bhuckaba@ussailing.net
> Subject: RE: Race tie with penalty
>
>
> Hi Bruce,
>
> >From the guidelines:-
>
> "Note: As provided in rules A6(b) and 44.3(c), the �split the points�
> principle of the first sentence of A7 does not apply when the
tie in race
> scores results from a grant of redress or the application of a scoring
> penalty."
>
> So the sequence should be: if there are race ties, split the poins and
> *then* add any scoring penalties; is that how you read it...?
>
> Colin
> www.sailwave.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bruce Huckaba [mailto:bhuckaba@ussailing.net]
> > Sent: 20 August 2005 00:48
> > To: Colin Jenkins
> > Subject: RE: Race tie with penalty
> >
> >
> > Colin,
> >
> > Your examples indicate that Sailwave applies the scoring
penalty before
> > considering the race tie (giving the unpenalized boat 2
instead of 2.5).
> >
> > The version I have is 1.57. It seems apply race tie braking
> > first and have
> > a problem with the 7 boat fleet. For seven boats it produces:
> > 1,2.5,4(SCP),4,5,6,7.
> >
> > I agree that RRS is ambigous. So far I've gotten three
> different opinions
> > on how this should be scored for 10 boats:
> > 1,2,4(SCP)...
> > 1,2.5, 4(SCP)...
> > 1,2.5, 4.5(SCP)...
> >
> > I'm trying to get a definitive answer. Do you happen to remember who
> > advised you?
> >
> >
> > Thanks, Bruce
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
> > Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 1:52 AM
> > To: bhuckaba@ussailing.net
> > Cc: Sailwave User Group
> > Subject: RE: Race tie with penalty
> >
> >
> > Hi Bruce,
> >
> > I've been on holiday and am working my way through a mountain
> of email...
> >
> > In the 10 boat case I would expect the penalty to be points for
> 2nd place
> > (20% of 10 is 2.0 == 2) and in the 7 boat case I would expect the
> > penalty to
> > be points for 1st place (20% = 1.4 == 1). (The RRS explicitly
> > say rounding
> > to the nearest 0.5.)
> >
> > So the final points would be 1,2,4(SCP),4,5,6,7,8,9,10 and
> > 1,2,3(SCP),4,5,6,7.
> >
> > The latest version of Sailwave (1.82) distributed to the Sailwave
> > User Group
> > seems to do this.
> >
> > www.sailwave/com/binary/sw182.exe
> >
> > I don't know if 1.57 produces the same result or not - it's very
> > old now and
> > due for replacement...
> >
> > Regards,
> > Colin
> > www.sailwave.com
> >
> > PS: I've always thought the RRS are a little ambigious about when
> > to average
> > tied points... I seem to remember taking advice from RYA/USSA.
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bruce Huckaba [mailto:bhuckaba@ussailing.net]
> > > Sent: 19 August 2005 04:02
> > > To: colin@sailwave.com
> > > Subject: Race tie with penalty
> > >
> > >
> > > Colin,
> > >
> > > I posted this on your board and haven't gotten a reply. You may
> > > be busy or
> > > don't want to post to the forum without a little research.
> > > Anyway, here is
> > > my question again.
> > >
> > > I have been asked about how to handle the following
situation,
> > > assuming that race ties are handled as average points.
> > >
> > > two boats, A and B, tie for 2nd in the first race
in a 10 boat
> > > fleet. B is also subject to a 20% penalty.
> > >
> > > How does Sailwave handle this situation?
> > >
> > > I seem to get different results depending on how many boats
are in the
> > > fleet. Sailwave gives me the answer I expect for 10 boats, but
> > > does not for
> > > 7.
> > >
> > > I would appreciate a reply, even is it isn't definitive.
> > >
> > > Thanks, Bruce
> > > US Sailing Scoring Review
> > >
> > >
> > >
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"...if a boat that sailed correctly tied at the finish line with another boat that had incurred
penalties..."

Fair comment but in reality, with a ZFP we are talking about a boat that poked his nose over at the
start then came back and started at the correct time, so in reality, the boats who tied had a fair
race.

All other penalties are normally disqualification of some sort so the tie then does not exist (A6.1)

Regards
Ralph

Let me add something to this great discussion:

I may have missed something in all of this, and perhaps the point has
already been made, but 44.3(c) does not say that the application of a
penalty creates a tie. It specifically says only that "two boats may
receive the same score". Please believe me when I say that if the
Lords Commissioners of ISAF thought that this then created a tie, and
therefore the "ties" should share their points, their Lordships would
have said so.

The application of 44.3(c) is a special case. You can win a lot of
beers with the question: "When is there no 1st Place in a 5 boat
race." Answer: "When 1st Place takes a ZFP or a SCP."

Hope this helps.

John

Hi
Only just picked up the significance of Bruce's query & not sure if

it differs from your final

conclusions.

I have applied App A & 44.3(c) to Bruce's example

APPLICATION OF RRS
Example: 2 boats (A & B) tie for 2nd place in a 10 boat race.
Penalty: Boat B is given a 20% Z flag penalty

A7: A & B should be awarded 2.5 points each (2+3)/2
Race points: 1.0; (A)2.5; (B)2.5; 4.0; 5.0 ....

44.3(c): B is penalised an additional 2 points (10*20%=2.0 to

nearest whole number)

Note: In a 7 boat fleet, the penalty would be 1 point (7*20%=1.4

rounded down)

Race Points: 1.0; (A)2.5; 4.0; (B)4.5; 5.0 ......

Interpretation: A7 is very clear that ties can only occur at the

finish line (ie dead heat in class

racing) or after applying a handicap (ie corrected times are exactly

the same)

I cannot find anywhere in RRS that says that tied points must be

rounded so boat A should always be

scored as 2.5

SAILWAVE SCORING
When I score this in SW, the following happens

Recording places through Sail No Wizard & scoring the regatta produces:
1.0; (A)2.5; (B)2.5; 4.0; 5.0 .....

Changing B to ZFP & rescoring the regatta produces:
1.0; (A)2.0; (B)4.0; 4.0; 5.0 .....

Colin: I think SW may be wrong, you say: "(The RRS explicitly say

rounding to the nearest 0.5.)"

44.3(c) says (when calculating penalty points)".....the number shall

be the whole number (rounding

0.5 upward)....."

Also 44.3(c) says "the scores of other boats shall not be

changed...." which I interpret to mean

that Boat A should always score 2.5 points, especially as A7 simply

says "add together and divide

equally" with no reference to rounding

This is obviously my own interpretation but if others disagree, I

will be happy to write to RYA to

get a definitive answer on the example

Regards
Ralph

From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@s…]
Sent: 22 August 2005 07:45
To: bhuckaba@u…
Cc: Sailwave User Group
Subject: [sailwave] RE: Race tie with penalty

Hi Bruce,

I agree that one thing is clear, ties should not be resolved if they

*only*

result in the same points after a penalty has been applied; because that
could result in an innocent boat's point being increased; clearly

that would

be unfair.

As for the case with a real tie and a penalty; if you decide on a way
forward perhaps you could let me know and I'll make sure that Sailwave
complies.

My own feeling is that the application of a penalty (which may be

applied

late) should not affect another boats score - which results in

applying race

ties based on finishes (including the penalty boats if there are

any) and

then adding the penalty points; i.e. if you took the penalty away, the
results would reflect how the boats sailed.

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

> From: Bruce Huckaba [mailto:bhuckaba@u…]
> Sent: 20 August 2005 17:17
> To: Colin Jenkins
> Subject: RE: Race tie with penalty
>
>
> Colin,
>
> I had read this also, but I do not believe it applies in this

case. This

> note is to keep people from trying to apply A7 when "when the TIE

in race

> scores RESULTS FROM a grant of redress or the application of a scoring
> penalty." This addresses when scoring penalties produce a tie

score, not

> when the boats tied before penalty was applied.
>
> I can see the argument that A7 comes after A5, where the Race

committee

> applies SCP or ZFP. Or the argument that the boat committed a
> rules breach
> before finishing, so the penalties should be applied before
> considering the
> tie.
>
> So, if the ZFP boat filed for redress and the protest committee

determined

> that she was not over in the last minute, would that change the

score from

> 1,2,4(ZFP) to 1,2.5,2.5? That might come as a surprise to the

other boat

> who never realize that she was tied in the first place.
>
> Thanks for you help on this. I believe the rules are ambiguous on

this

> (like they used to be on series tie breaking) and it's only by

talking to

> people that do scoring that I can find out why they chose their
> interpretation.
>
> Thanks, Bruce
>
>
>
> From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@s…]
> Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 2:43 AM
> To: bhuckaba@u…
> Subject: RE: Race tie with penalty
>
>
> Hi Bruce,
>
> >From the guidelines:-
>
> "Note: As provided in rules A6(b) and 44.3(c), the `split the points'
> principle of the first sentence of A7 does not apply when the tie

in race

> scores results from a grant of redress or the application of a scoring
> penalty."
>
> So the sequence should be: if there are race ties, split the poins and
> *then* add any scoring penalties; is that how you read it…?
>
> Colin
> www.sailwave.com
>
>
> > From: Bruce Huckaba [mailto:bhuckaba@u…]
> > Sent: 20 August 2005 00:48
> > To: Colin Jenkins
> > Subject: RE: Race tie with penalty
> >
> >
> > Colin,
> >
> > Your examples indicate that Sailwave applies the scoring penalty

before

> > considering the race tie (giving the unpenalized boat 2 instead

of 2.5).

> >
> > The version I have is 1.57. It seems apply race tie braking
> > first and have
> > a problem with the 7 boat fleet. For seven boats it produces:
> > 1,2.5,4(SCP),4,5,6,7.
> >
> > I agree that RRS is ambigous. So far I've gotten three
> different opinions
> > on how this should be scored for 10 boats:
> > 1,2,4(SCP)...
> > 1,2.5, 4(SCP)...
> > 1,2.5, 4.5(SCP)...
> >
> > I'm trying to get a definitive answer. Do you happen to

remember who

> > advised you?
> >
> >
> > Thanks, Bruce
> >
> > From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@s…]
> > Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 1:52 AM
> > To: bhuckaba@u…
> > Cc: Sailwave User Group
> > Subject: RE: Race tie with penalty
> >
> >
> > Hi Bruce,
> >
> > I've been on holiday and am working my way through a mountain
> of email…
> >
> > In the 10 boat case I would expect the penalty to be points for
> 2nd place
> > (20% of 10 is 2.0 == 2) and in the 7 boat case I would expect the
> > penalty to
> > be points for 1st place (20% = 1.4 == 1). (The RRS explicitly
> > say rounding
> > to the nearest 0.5.)
> >
> > So the final points would be 1,2,4(SCP),4,5,6,7,8,9,10 and
> > 1,2,3(SCP),4,5,6,7.
> >
> > The latest version of Sailwave (1.82) distributed to the Sailwave
> > User Group
> > seems to do this.
> >
> > www.sailwave/com/binary/sw182.exe
> >
> > I don't know if 1.57 produces the same result or not - it's very
> > old now and
> > due for replacement…
> >
> > Regards,
> > Colin
> > www.sailwave.com
> >
> > PS: I've always thought the RRS are a little ambigious about when
> > to average
> > tied points… I seem to remember taking advice from RYA/USSA.
> >
> >
> > > From: Bruce Huckaba [mailto:bhuckaba@u…]
> > > Sent: 19 August 2005 04:02
> > > To: colin@s…
> > > Subject: Race tie with penalty
> > >
> > >
> > > Colin,
> > >
> > > I posted this on your board and haven't gotten a reply. You may
> > > be busy or
> > > don't want to post to the forum without a little research.
> > > Anyway, here is
> > > my question again.
> > >
> > > I have been asked about how to handle the following situation,
> > > assuming that race ties are handled as average points.
> > >
> > > two boats, A and B, tie for 2nd in the first race in a 10 boat
> > > fleet. B is also subject to a 20% penalty.
> > >
> > > How does Sailwave handle this situation?
> > >
> > > I seem to get different results depending on how many boats

are in the

> > > fleet. Sailwave gives me the answer I expect for 10 boats, but
> > > does not for
> > > 7.
> > >
> > > I would appreciate a reply, even is it isn't definitive.
> > >
> > > Thanks, Bruce
> > > US Sailing Scoring Review
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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22/07/2005

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> >
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>
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