Races to Qualify

Imported from Yahoo
1

Hi Colin

The more I get into this scoring business the more it becomes apparent that the ability to handle ‘Races to Qualify’ is fundamental to any scoring system. Whilst you can edit out those who did not qualify either in Sailwave or when manipulating after publishing, you lose the fact that the guys turned up on the day and raced and perhaps even returned a good score, so you don’t get the true story of what happened through the series, which may be over several weeks or months. If you score them in it affects the points of all those who did qualify. You can have the situation where those who didn’t qualify scored better than those who did, then you have to manipulate points/positions manually, which defeats the object of having scoring software in the first place.

2

Kevin: The Ft. Walton Yacht Club is using Sailwave (ver 147) to score our races. We recently conducted the Corsair National Championships. Unfortunately our chief scorer was sick, so I was struggling with the program. The corsairs are very difficult to score since these multihull boats move very fast especially if the wind is up. They are not really a one design and we have to take a time as well as a bow number. I digress.

Our problem is data entry time. We had 5 classes with 3 starting times. Is there a way to redo a starting time? We entered the wrong starting time for one class and then had to redo the entire class , one boat at a time using the wizard.

George F. Goodall
1986 Catalina 30 TRBS
“Frantic”
georgeg305@cox.net

3

Hi Keith,

The more I get into this scoring business the more it becomes

apparent that the ability to handle 'Races to Qualify' is fundamental
to any scoring system.<

I do plan to add a qualification profile to go with the discard
profile, but because it can be mathematically (in all but
pathological contexts) be solved by setting DNC=SomeLargeNumber
(without any loss of information), something else always seems to get
in the way... I'll do it by the release version of 1.47.

I must admit that I personally see it as an unnecessary complication
and perhaps this has, but should not have, had an influence on it
getting done... :slight_smile:

If you score them in it affects the points of all those who did

qualify.<

The qualification scheme as discussed on the SUG previously will not
unilaterally ignore a competitor for the whole of a series, and
rescore it; rather, just mark a boat DNQ in the final points/pos
columns or something like that, if they didn't do enough races based
on the number of races sailed. That boat will have a result in the
races in which she sailed...

Is your spec different to that...?

Regards,
Colin

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Lomax" <keithlomax@d...>
wrote:

Hi Colin
The more I get into this scoring business the more it becomes

apparent that the ability to handle 'Races to Qualify' is fundamental
to any scoring system. Whilst you can edit out those who did not
qualify either in Sailwave or when manipulating after publishing, you
lose the fact that the guys turned up on the day and raced and
perhaps even returned a good score, so you don't get the true story
of what happened through the series, which may be over several weeks
or months. If you score them in it affects the points of all those
who did qualify. You can have the situation where those who didn't
qualify scored better than those who did, then you have to manipulate
points/positions manually, which defeats the object of having scoring
software in the first place.

4

Hi Colin

>it can be mathematically (in all but
pathological contexts) be solved by setting DNC=SomeLargeNumber <

Maybe so, but if your SIs say DNC = starters +3, members are going to query points which exceed this criteria. Giving a high value to DNC is going to affect everyone including those who score or can discard DNC and still qualify in a series.

Keith

5

The qualification scheme as discussed on the SUG previously will not
unilaterally ignore a competitor for the whole of a series, and
rescore it; rather, just mark a boat DNQ in the final points/pos
columns or something like that, if they didn’t do enough races based
on the number of races sailed. That boat will have a result in the
races in which she sailed…

Is your spec different to that…?<

At the end of a series of say 6 races with 3 to qualify I would want Sailwave to look at each competitor and IF they had sailed the requisite number of races to qualify then they are awarded a position and points in the normal way otherwise they would not be awarded a position and points, but Sailwave would show the position achieved in the race(s) in which they did sail, and yes, just mark a boat DNQ in the final points/pos columns or something like that.

``

Keith

6

Hi Keith, great, that's the same then. CJ.

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Lomax" <keithlomax@d...>
wrote:

  >The qualification scheme as discussed on the SUG previously will

not

  unilaterally ignore a competitor for the whole of a series, and
  rescore it; rather, just mark a boat DNQ in the final points/pos
  columns or something like that, if they didn't do enough races

based

  on the number of races sailed. That boat will have a result in

the

  races in which she sailed...

  Is your spec different to that...?<

  At the end of a series of say 6 races with 3 to qualify I would

want Sailwave to look at each competitor and IF they had sailed the
requisite number of races to qualify then they are awarded a position
and points in the normal way otherwise they would not be awarded a
position and points, but Sailwave would show the position achieved in
the race(s) in which they did sail, and yes, just mark a boat DNQ in
the final points/pos columns or something like that.

···

  Keith

7

Hi George,

I'm working on a much more powerful 'how the boats raced'
implementation now which would satisfy your needs but I'm afraid
you're out of luck with the series you have. Your best bet is to
open the series (.blw file) with notepad and do a search and replace
on the start time... If that makes you uneasy, I'll do it for you if
you send me the series and the detailed instructions of what you want
changed.

[Just out of interest and FYI the better 'how the boats raced' will
come along with a much better 'how to score the boats' implementaton -
but decoupled from eachother - the decoupling allows endless
variations on scoring and freedom from just 'fleets']

Regards,
Colin

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "George Goodall" <georgeg305@c...>
wrote:

  Kevin: The Ft. Walton Yacht Club is using Sailwave (ver 147) to

score our

races. We recently conducted the Corsair National Championships.
Unfortunately our chief scorer was sick, so I was struggling with

the

program. The corsairs are very difficult to score since these

multihull

boats move very fast especially if the wind is up. They are not

really a

one design and we have to take a time as well as a bow number. I

digress.

  Our problem is data entry time. We had 5 classes with 3 starting

times.

Is there a way to redo a starting time? We entered the wrong

starting time

for one class and then had to redo the entire class , one boat at

a time

···

using the wizard.

  George F. Goodall
  1986 Catalina 30 TRBS
  "Frantic"
  georgeg305@c...

8

If you are going to add the code to support a qualification profile it would also be nice to have the ability to show practice races in the results. This would require that the race be discarded under all circumstances and not count in the final results. If it doesn’t fit I’ll keep scoring it as a separate regatta…

···

-------Original Message-------

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Date: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 06:08:48 AM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [sailwave] Re: Races to Qualify

`Hi Keith,

The more I get into this scoring business the more it becomes
apparent that the ability to handle ‘Races to Qualify’ is fundamental
to any scoring system.<

I do plan to add a qualification profile to go with the discard
profile, but because it can be mathematically (in all but
pathological contexts) be solved by setting DNC=SomeLargeNumber
(without any loss of information), something else always seems to get
in the way… I’ll do it by the release version of 1.47.

I must admit that I personally see it as an unnecessary complication
and perhaps this has, but should not have, had an influence on it
getting done… :slight_smile:

If you score them in it affects the points of all those who did
qualify.<

The qualification scheme as discussed on the SUG previously will not
unilaterally ignore a competitor for the whole of a series, and
rescore it; rather, just mark a boat DNQ in the final points/pos
columns or something like that, if they didn’t do enough races based
on the number of races sailed. That boat will have a result in the
races in which she sailed…

Is your spec different to that…?

Regards,
Colin

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, “Keith Lomax” <keithlomax@d…>
wrote:

Hi Colin
The more I get into this scoring business the more it becomes
apparent that the ability to handle ‘Races to Qualify’ is fundamental
to any scoring system. Whilst you can edit out those who did not
qualify either in Sailwave or when manipulating after publishing, you
lose the fact that the guys turned up on the day and raced and
perhaps even returned a good score, so you don’t get the true story
of what happened through the series, which may be over several weeks
or months. If you score them in it affects the points of all those
who did qualify. You can have the situation where those who didn’t
qualify scored better than those who did, then you have to manipulate
points/positions manually, which defeats the object of having scoring
software in the first place.

`

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9

The way to handle this is to put a new scoring code in the SI’s, DNQ(?). Anyone who fails to show up at the club is scored DNQ = starters + 20 , if someone shows up but fails to get to the starting line they would be scored DNC = starters + 1…

···

-------Original Message-------

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Date: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 06:41:59 AM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Races to Qualify

Hi Colin

>it can be mathematically (in all but
pathological contexts) be solved by setting DNC=SomeLargeNumber <

Maybe so, but if your SIs say DNC = starters +3, members are going to query points which exceed this criteria. Giving a high value to DNC is going to affect everyone including those who score or can discard DNC and still qualify in a series.

Keith

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10

Here is a twist on the qualifications
question. One of the clubs I score for now wants to have qualifications based
on race days. i.e. you must race in 3 of 5 race days. There maybe anywhere from
1 to 5 races on a given day and some fleets may have more races than others on
the same day. Obviously for this to work they want to score on average points. Sorry,
just trying to make things more complex! J

-Bill

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Townsend
[mailto:s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday,
April 30, 2003 11:37 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com;
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Races
to Qualify

The way to handle this is to put a new scoring code in the
SI’s, DNQ(?). Anyone who fails to show up at the club is scored DNQ
= starters + 20 , if someone shows up but fails to get to the starting
line they would be scored DNC = starters + 1…

-------Original Message-------

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Date:
Wednesday, April 30, 2003 06:41:59 AM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re:
[sailwave] Re: Races to Qualify

Hi Colin

>it can be mathematically (in all but *
** pathological
contexts) be solved by setting DNC=SomeLargeNumber <***

Maybe so, but if your SIs say DNC = starters +3, members
are going to query points which exceed this criteria. Giving a high value to
DNC is going to affect everyone including those who score or can discard DNC
and still qualify in a series.

Keith

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11

Hi Mark,

I’ll see what I can do. I think you can do it now by marking the race as ‘discard me first’ and increasing the number of discards by one in all situations; i.e. so there is always at least one discard.

Regards,

Colin

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Townsend [mailto:s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com]
Sent: 30 April 2003 16:31
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com; sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Races to Qualify

  If you are going to add the code to support a qualification profile it would also be nice to have the ability to show practice races in the results. This would require that the race be discarded under all circumstances and not count in the final results. If it doesn't fit I'll keep scoring it as a separate regatta...

-------Original Message-------

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Date: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 06:08:48 AM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [sailwave] Re: Races to Qualify

`Hi Keith,

  >The more I get into this scoring business the more it becomes
  apparent that the ability to handle 'Races to Qualify' is fundamental

to any scoring system.<

  I do plan to add a qualification profile to go with the discard
  profile, but because it can be mathematically (in all but
  pathological contexts) be solved by setting DNC=SomeLargeNumber
  (without any loss of information), something else always seems to get
  in the way...  I'll do it by the release version of 1.47.

  I must admit that I personally see it as an unnecessary complication
  and perhaps this has, but should not have, had an influence on it
  getting done... :-)

  >If you score them in it affects the points of all those who did

qualify.<

  The qualification scheme as discussed on the SUG previously will not
  unilaterally ignore a competitor for the whole of a series, and
  rescore it; rather, just mark a boat DNQ in the final points/pos
  columns or something like that, if they didn't do enough races based
  on the number of races sailed.  That boat will have a result in the
  races in which she sailed...

  Is your spec different to that...?

Regards,
Colin

  --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Lomax" <keithlomax@d...>

wrote:

Hi Colin
The more I get into this scoring business the more it becomes
apparent that the ability to handle ‘Races to Qualify’ is fundamental
to any scoring system. Whilst you can edit out those who did not
qualify either in Sailwave or when manipulating after publishing, you
lose the fact that the guys turned up on the day and raced and
perhaps even returned a good score, so you don’t get the true story
of what happened through the series, which may be over several weeks
or months. If you score them in it affects the points of all those
who did qualify. You can have the situation where those who didn’t
qualify scored better than those who did, then you have to manipulate
points/positions manually, which defeats the object of having scoring
software in the first place.

`

` -!- Tired of Hotmail? Try http://www.fastmail.fm
-!-
http://www.sailwave.com/

  Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:

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12

Your correct the “discard me first” option works perfectly…

Thanks

···

-------Original Message-------

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Date: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 01:43:26 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Races to Qualify

Hi Mark,

I’ll see what I can do. I think you can do it now by marking the race as ‘discard me first’ and increasing the number of discards by one in all situations; i.e. so there is always at least one discard.

Regards,

Colin

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Townsend [mailto:s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com]
Sent: 30 April 2003 16:31
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com; sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Races to Qualify

If you are going to add the code to support a qualification profile it would also be nice to have the ability to show practice races in the results. This would require that the race be discarded under all circumstances and not count in the final results. If it doesn’t fit I’ll keep scoring it as a separate regatta…

-------Original Message-------

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Date: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 06:08:48 AM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [sailwave] Re: Races to Qualify

`Hi Keith,

The more I get into this scoring business the more it becomes
apparent that the ability to handle ‘Races to Qualify’ is fundamental
to any scoring system.<

I do plan to add a qualification profile to go with the discard
profile, but because it can be mathematically (in all but
pathological contexts) be solved by setting DNC=SomeLargeNumber
(without any loss of information), something else always seems to get
in the way… I’ll do it by the release version of 1.47.

I must admit that I personally see it as an unnecessary complication
and perhaps this has, but should not have, had an influence on it
getting done… :slight_smile:

If you score them in it affects the points of all those who did
qualify.<

The qualification scheme as discussed on the SUG previously will not
unilaterally ignore a competitor for the whole of a series, and
rescore it; rather, just mark a boat DNQ in the final points/pos
columns or something like that, if they didn’t do enough races based
on the number of races sailed. That boat will have a result in the
races in which she sailed…

Is your spec different to that…?

Regards,
Colin

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, “Keith Lomax” <keithlomax@d…>
wrote:

Hi Colin
The more I get into this scoring business the more it becomes
apparent that the ability to handle ‘Races to Qualify’ is fundamental
to any scoring system. Whilst you can edit out those who did not
qualify either in Sailwave or when manipulating after publishing, you
lose the fact that the guys turned up on the day and raced and
perhaps even returned a good score, so you don’t get the true story
of what happened through the series, which may be over several weeks
or months. If you score them in it affects the points of all those
who did qualify. You can have the situation where those who didn’t
qualify scored better than those who did, then you have to manipulate
points/positions manually, which defeats the object of having scoring
software in the first place.

`

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http://www.sailwave.com/

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13

In version 1.45 of sailwave an option was included which allowed the “Corrected” and “Rwin” columns to be omitted from the published race results. see
http://www.abyc.org/2002REGATTAS/SNIPEWESTERN/resultsD4.htm

This feature was particularly useful when using start and finish times for one-design racing as “corrected” and “rwin” do not make sense in one-design. This feature seems to have disappeared in 1.47…

···

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14

Hi Mark,

In version 1.45 of sailwave an option was

included which allowed the "Corrected" and "Rwin"
columns to be omitted from the published race results. see
http://www.abyc.org/2002REGATTAS/SNIPEWESTERN/resultsD4.htm
This feature was particularly useful when using start and
finish times for one-design racing as "corrected" and "rwin"
do not make sense in one-design. This feature seems to have
disappeared in 1.47....<

Yes, this was one of the regressions that happened when I abandoned work on
Sailwave2 and went back to 1.44 to restart (everything in 1.45 was lost).
I'll sort it out ASAP...

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Townsend [mailto:s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com]
Sent: 30 April 2003 23:31
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] One Design Results using Finish Times

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15

fellow townsend

can you please instruct me how you integrate the py ratings file into the main sailwave program? so that boats and handicaps appear in the individual competitor details.

please use idoiot proof language.

cheers

john townsend

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Mark Townsend

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com ; sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:37 PM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Races to Qualify

    The way to handle this is to put a new scoring code in the SI's, DNQ(?). Anyone who fails to show up at the club is scored DNQ = starters + 20 , if someone shows up but fails to get to the starting line they would be scored DNC = starters + 1....

  •    -------Original Message-------*

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Date: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 06:41:59 AM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Races to Qualify

Hi Colin

  •    >it can be mathematically (in all but
  pathological contexts) be solved by setting DNC=SomeLargeNumber <*

    Maybe so, but if your SIs say DNC = starters +3, members are going to query points which exceed this criteria. Giving a high value to DNC is going to affect everyone including those who score or can discard DNC and still qualify in a series.

Keith

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16

I have also noticed that the “result code” dialog of the 1.47 beta 5 version appears to be messed up with the same option being repeated several times… e.g. “average points for all races…”

Thanks

···

-------Original Message-------

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Date: Thursday, May 01, 2003 12:44:27 AM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] One Design Results using Finish Times

`Hi Mark,

In version 1.45 of sailwave an option was
included which allowed the “Corrected” and “Rwin”
columns to be omitted from the published race results. see
http://www.abyc.org/2002REGATTAS/SNIPEWESTERN/resultsD4.htm
This feature was particularly useful when using start and
finish times for one-design racing as “corrected” and “rwin”
do not make sense in one-design. This feature seems to have
disappeared in 1.47…<

Yes, this was one of the regressions that happened when I abandoned work on
Sailwave2 and went back to 1.44 to restart (everything in 1.45 was lost).
I’ll sort it out ASAP…

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Townsend [mailto:s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com]
Sent: 30 April 2003 23:31
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] One Design Results using Finish Times

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17

Thanks. Fixed. You can sort it out in your copy by clearing the locale file spec in Tools+GlobalOptions.

Regards,

Colin

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Townsend [mailto:s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com]
Sent: 01 May 2003 18:07
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com; sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] One Design Results using Finish Times

  I have also noticed that the "result code" dialog of the 1.47 beta 5 version appears to be messed up with the same option being repeated several times.. e.g. "average points for all races...."

Thanks

-------Original Message-------

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Date: Thursday, May 01, 2003 12:44:27 AM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] One Design Results using Finish Times

`Hi Mark,

  > In version 1.45 of sailwave an option was

included which allowed the “Corrected” and “Rwin”
columns to be omitted from the published race results. see
http://www.abyc.org/2002REGATTAS/SNIPEWESTERN/resultsD4.htm
This feature was particularly useful when using start and
finish times for one-design racing as “corrected” and “rwin”
do not make sense in one-design. This feature seems to have
disappeared in 1.47…<

  Yes, this was one of the regressions that happened when I abandoned work on
  Sailwave2 and went back to 1.44 to restart (everything in 1.45 was lost).
  I'll sort it out ASAP...

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Mark Townsend [mailto:s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com]

Sent: 30 April 2003 23:31
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] One Design Results using Finish Times

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