I've just been looking through the above and see that for scoring, RAF (retired after finishing) has been replaced with RET (retired.
Now at our club I've always used DNF (did not finish) to score those who started a race but did not finish, so, whilst I know that the points scored will be the same, can someone please explain the circumstances post January 2013 that I should score a boat as DNF or RET?
Most competitors who don't finish races insist on telling me that they "retired"!
Hopefully a simple point to clarify.
Stewart
The scoring code RET or RAF is normally applied to someone who transgresses a racing rule on the water, but does not do any penalty out there.
He is then given the opportunity to admit this trangression once ashore and to retire from the race (signing as such on a retirement form).
In RRS, see Basic Principle - Sportsmanship and the Rules.
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield South Africa
···
On 2012/11/19 13:49, familyberry wrote:
I've just been looking through the above and see that for scoring, RAF (retired after finishing) has been replaced with RET (retired.
Now at our club I've always used DNF (did not finish) to score those who started a race but did not finish, so, whilst I know that the points scored will be the same, can someone please explain the circumstances post January 2013 that I should score a boat as DNF or RET?
Most competitors who don't finish races insist on telling me that they "retired"!
Hopefully a simple point to clarify.
Stewart
Under the old scheme, DNF = literally “Did Not Finish”, RAF = literally “Retired After Finishing”. But what about “retired before finishing”?
Changing RAF to RET reflects the wording of the rules, where to “Retire” represents an explicit acknowledgement of fault and should be done immediately rather than waiting till after finishing. So I would score RET everyone who tells you they retired because of a rule infringement, whether they finish or not, while reserving DNF for people who simply fail to finish after (eg) capsizing or getting bored, whether they tell you or not.
Ian.
···
On 19 November 2012 12:15, Malcolm Osborne malcolmo@telkomsa.net wrote:
The scoring code RET or RAF is normally
applied to someone who transgresses a racing rule on the water,
but does not do any penalty out there.
He is then given the opportunity to admit this trangression once
ashore and to retire from the race (signing as such on a
retirement form).
In RRS, see Basic Principle - Sportsmanship and the Rules.
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield South Africa
On 2012/11/19 13:49, familyberry wrote:
I've just been looking through the above and see that for
scoring, RAF (retired after finishing) has been replaced
with RET (retired.
Now at our club I’ve always used DNF (did not finish) to
score those who started a race but did not finish, so,
whilst I know that the points scored will be the same, can
someone please explain the circumstances post January 2013
that I should score a boat as DNF or RET?
Most competitors who don’t finish races insist on telling
me that they “retired”!
Hopefully a simple point to clarify.
Stewart
As per submission 184-11
"At present, there is no scoring abbreviation for a boat that takes a penalty by retiring during a
race (rule 44.1(b)) or retires as required by Appendix P2.2 or P2.3. In these circumstances, the
race committee either scores the boat RAF or DNF. RAF is incorrect, since the boat retired
before finishing. DNF does not adequately describe the situation.
RET is the appropriate abbreviation to use for a boat that retires in these circumstances. There is
no reason to maintain RAF, since RET covers any retirement, whether before or after finishing.
Rule 64.1 permits the sailing instructions to specify a penalty other than disqualification in some
circumstances. There is no scoring abbreviation in A11 to describe such a penalty. DPI has
gained near-universal acceptance. It is recommended, therefore, that this abbreviation be added
to A11."
So when a boat takes a penalty by retiring RET
When they do not finish for any other reason DNF
Gordon
···
On 19/11/2012 11:49, familyberry wrote:
I've just been looking through the above and see that for scoring, RAF (retired after finishing) has been replaced with RET (retired.
Now at our club I've always used DNF (did not finish) to score those who started a race but did not finish, so, whilst I know that the points scored will be the same, can someone please explain the circumstances post January 2013 that I should score a boat as DNF or RET?
Most competitors who don't finish races insist on telling me that they "retired"!
Hopefully a simple point to clarify.
Stewart
Jon,
I think that this can now be put into the next convenient SW release.
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield South Africa
···
On 2012/11/19 15:09, Gordon Davies wrote:
As per submission 184-11
"At present, there is no scoring abbreviation for a boat that takes a penalty by retiring during a
race (rule 44.1(b)) or retires as required by Appendix P2.2 or P2.3. In these circumstances, the
race committee either scores the boat RAF or DNF. RAF is incorrect, since the boat retired
before finishing. DNF does not adequately describe the situation.
RET is the appropriate abbreviation to use for a boat that retires in these circumstances. There is
no reason to maintain RAF, since RET covers any retirement, whether before or after finishing.
Rule 64.1 permits the sailing instructions to specify a penalty other than disqualification in some
circumstances. There is no scoring abbreviation in A11 to describe such a penalty. DPI has
gained near-universal acceptance. It is recommended, therefore, that this abbreviation be added
to A11."
So when a boat takes a penalty by retiring RET
When they do not finish for any other reason DNF
Gordon
On 19/11/2012 11:49, familyberry wrote:
I've just been looking through the above and see that for scoring, RAF (retired after finishing) has been replaced with RET (retired.
Now at our club I've always used DNF (did not finish) to score those who started a race but did not finish, so, whilst I know that the points scored will be the same, can someone please explain the circumstances post January 2013 that I should score a boat as DNF or RET?
Most competitors who don't finish races insist on telling me that they "retired"!
Hopefully a simple point to clarify.
Stewart
OK,
Its in V2.6.1 or latter (Not released yet)
When you generate a New Series there is now no RAF in the scoring code. Instead there is a RET.
One problem this causes is that the RET code can be applied if the boat finished or didn’t finish. Some clubs use codes that generate points based on the number of finishers. So if you are using this be careful. RET defaults to not finishing which is I guess OK for most cases. You can of course change this and you can if you wish also put an RAF code in as well though it won’t comply with the new RRS.
Note the RET code is only generated if you start a new series. If you are starting with a previous Sailwave (.blw) file then the scoring system will be as it was previously, You will need to edit the RAF code to RET and change the Finished to No from Yes, when you are ready to start using the new codes…
Jon
···
On 19 November 2012 13:31, Malcolm Osborne malcolmo@telkomsa.net wrote:
Jon,
I think that this can now be put into the next convenient SW
release.
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield South Africa
On 2012/11/19 15:09, Gordon Davies wrote:
As per submission 184-11
"At present, there is no scoring abbreviation for a boat
that takes a penalty by retiring during a
race (rule 44.1(b)) or retires as required by Appendix
P2.2 or P2.3. In these circumstances, the
race committee either scores the boat RAF or DNF. RAF is
incorrect, since the boat retired
before finishing. DNF does not adequately describe the
situation.
RET is the appropriate abbreviation to use for a boat that
retires in these circumstances. There is
no reason to maintain RAF, since RET covers any
retirement, whether before or after finishing.
Rule 64.1 permits the sailing instructions to specify a
penalty other than disqualification in some
circumstances. There is no scoring abbreviation in A11 to
describe such a penalty. DPI has
gained near-universal acceptance. It is recommended,
therefore, that this abbreviation be added
to A11."
So when a boat takes a penalty by retiring RET
When they do not finish for any other reason DNF
Gordon
On 19/11/2012 11:49, familyberry wrote:
I've just been looking through the above and see that
for scoring, RAF (retired after finishing) has been
replaced with RET (retired.
Now at our club I’ve always used DNF (did not finish)
to score those who started a race but did not finish,
so, whilst I know that the points scored will be the
same, can someone please explain the circumstances
post January 2013 that I should score a boat as DNF or
RET?
Most competitors who don’t finish races insist on
telling me that they “retired”!
Hopefully a simple point to clarify.
Stewart
–
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”
Jon’s proposal is good. Where clubs award points on the basis of finishers, RAF should always have been treated as a non- finish. When a boat retires after finishing it is acknowledging that it should not in fact have finished - it is simply retiring too late. To treat RAF as a finish in those circumstances could encourage bad sportsmanship, by finishing you may be able to worsen another boat’s score.
···
On 19 November 2012 18:49, Jon Eskdale jon@eskdale.org wrote:
OK,
Its in V2.6.1 or latter (Not released yet)
When you generate a New Series there is now no RAF in the scoring code. Instead there is a RET.
One problem this causes is that the RET code can be applied if the boat finished or didn’t finish. Some clubs use codes that generate points based on the number of finishers. So if you are using this be careful. RET defaults to not finishing which is I guess OK for most cases. You can of course change this and you can if you wish also put an RAF code in as well though it won’t comply with the new RRS.
Note the RET code is only generated if you start a new series. If you are starting with a previous Sailwave (.blw) file then the scoring system will be as it was previously, You will need to edit the RAF code to RET and change the Finished to No from Yes, when you are ready to start using the new codes…
Jon
On 19 November 2012 13:31, Malcolm Osborne malcolmo@telkomsa.net wrote:
Jon,
I think that this can now be put into the next convenient SW
release.
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield South Africa
On 2012/11/19 15:09, Gordon Davies wrote:
As per submission 184-11
"At present, there is no scoring abbreviation for a boat
that takes a penalty by retiring during a
race (rule 44.1(b)) or retires as required by Appendix
P2.2 or P2.3. In these circumstances, the
race committee either scores the boat RAF or DNF. RAF is
incorrect, since the boat retired
before finishing. DNF does not adequately describe the
situation.
RET is the appropriate abbreviation to use for a boat that
retires in these circumstances. There is
no reason to maintain RAF, since RET covers any
retirement, whether before or after finishing.
Rule 64.1 permits the sailing instructions to specify a
penalty other than disqualification in some
circumstances. There is no scoring abbreviation in A11 to
describe such a penalty. DPI has
gained near-universal acceptance. It is recommended,
therefore, that this abbreviation be added
to A11."
So when a boat takes a penalty by retiring RET
When they do not finish for any other reason DNF
Gordon
On 19/11/2012 11:49, familyberry wrote:
I've just been looking through the above and see that
for scoring, RAF (retired after finishing) has been
replaced with RET (retired.
Now at our club I’ve always used DNF (did not finish)
to score those who started a race but did not finish,
so, whilst I know that the points scored will be the
same, can someone please explain the circumstances
post January 2013 that I should score a boat as DNF or
RET?
Most competitors who don’t finish races insist on
telling me that they “retired”!
Hopefully a simple point to clarify.
Stewart
–
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”
I think this is a real problem, although not a big one. The number of finishers can be calculated one of two ways: (a) either based on number of boats with a finish time (or finish position) or (b) based on scoring codes. The first way will be accurate regardless of anything else. The second way can only be accurate if we have two codes when the scoring code does not distinguish between whether a boat finished or not.
RET does not make that distinction and therefore there probably should be two codes (maybe RET and RETa, with the latter for "after finishing") that both publish as RET to conform to the rulebook. [My thought is that RETa would display only in Sailwave and all published output (including XML) would show as "RET" to conform to the rulebook. If this issue had been pointed out to ISAF when the change was voted on it is very possible they would not have made the change as I don't believe they considered this issue.
I note that I believe the same issue arises with OCS. A boat that is OCS but doesn't finish can in theory be scored either as OCS or DNF. Since OCS occurs first in time and is higher up the list in A11 I think that code should take precedence. So, a boat that is OCS might or might not be a finisher.
Art
···
On 11/19/2012 10:49 AM, Jon Eskdale wrote:
OK,
Its in V2.6.1 or latter (Not released yet)
When you generate a New Series there is now no RAF in the scoring code.
Instead there is a RET.
One problem this causes is that the RET code can be applied if the boat
finished or didn't finish. Some clubs use codes that generate points based
on the number of finishers. So if you are using this be careful. RET
defaults to not finishing which is I guess OK for most cases. You can of
course change this and you can if you wish also put an RAF code in as well
though it won't comply with the new RRS.
Note the RET code is only generated if you start a new series. If you are
starting with a previous Sailwave (.blw) file then the scoring system will
be as it was previously, You will need to edit the RAF code to RET and
change the Finished to No from Yes, when you are ready to start using the
new codes..
Jon
On 19 November 2012 13:31, Malcolm Osborne<malcolmo@telkomsa.net> wrote:
**
Jon,
I think that this can now be put into the next convenient SW release.
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield South Africa
On 2012/11/19 15:09, Gordon Davies wrote:
As per submission 184-11
"At present, there is no scoring abbreviation for a boat that takes a
penalty by retiring during a
race (rule 44.1(b)) or retires as required by Appendix P2.2 or P2.3. In
these circumstances, the
race committee either scores the boat RAF or DNF. RAF is incorrect, since
the boat retired
before finishing. DNF does not adequately describe the situation.
RET is the appropriate abbreviation to use for a boat that retires in
these circumstances. There is
no reason to maintain RAF, since RET covers any retirement, whether before
or after finishing.
Rule 64.1 permits the sailing instructions to specify a penalty other than
disqualification in some
circumstances. There is no scoring abbreviation in A11 to describe such a
penalty. DPI has
gained near-universal acceptance. It is recommended, therefore, that this
abbreviation be added
to A11."
So when a boat takes a penalty by retiring RET
When they do not finish for any other reason DNF
Gordon
On 19/11/2012 11:49, familyberry wrote:
I've just been looking through the above and see that for scoring, RAF
(retired after finishing) has been replaced with RET (retired.
Now at our club I've always used DNF (did not finish) to score those who
started a race but did not finish, so, whilst I know that the points scored
will be the same, can someone please explain the circumstances post January
2013 that I should score a boat as DNF or RET?
Most competitors who don't finish races insist on telling me that they
"retired"!
Hopefully a simple point to clarify.
Stewart
This hasn't happened recently but it easily could. Under Sailwave, how does one score two penalties [could be (a) two SCP penalties or (b) one SCP penalty and one ZFP penalty or (c) two ZFP penalties or (d) one DPI penalty and any other penalty]?
Under the rulebook, the correct way to score two SCP penalties is two 20% penalties, not one 40% penalty - the difference would be in rounding [with 7 competitors, 2 x 1 (1.4 rounded to 1) = 2 whereas 1 x 3 (2.8 rounded to 3) = 3]. If one goes to "edit results" it only seems possible to apply one scoring code when two might apply and the two that apply could be the same (two SCPs or two ZFPs). With two of the same penalty a workaround would be to assign custom points but that doesn't seem to be possible either unless I change the penalty to always be custom, which pretty much defeats the utility of having the penalty pre-defined in the first place.
I must admit that this is asked wearing my "rules" hat (as opposed to my "scoring" hat) as this wouldn't be an everyday occurrence. However, I should think we ought to be able to comply with the rulebook, if possible. Maybe it isn't really possible and this would be a case of editing the HTML output by hand. On the other hand, perhaps one should be able to apply up to 3 scoring codes per result.
Art
···
On 11/19/2012 10:49 AM, Jon Eskdale wrote:
OK,
Its in V2.6.1 or latter (Not released yet)
When you generate a New Series there is now no RAF in the scoring code.
Instead there is a RET.
One problem this causes is that the RET code can be applied if the boat
finished or didn't finish. Some clubs use codes that generate points based
on the number of finishers. So if you are using this be careful. RET
defaults to not finishing which is I guess OK for most cases. You can of
course change this and you can if you wish also put an RAF code in as well
though it won't comply with the new RRS.
Note the RET code is only generated if you start a new series. If you are
starting with a previous Sailwave (.blw) file then the scoring system will
be as it was previously, You will need to edit the RAF code to RET and
change the Finished to No from Yes, when you are ready to start using the
new codes..
Jon
On 19 November 2012 13:31, Malcolm Osborne<malcolmo@telkomsa.net> wrote:
**
Jon,
I think that this can now be put into the next convenient SW release.
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield South Africa
On 2012/11/19 15:09, Gordon Davies wrote:
As per submission 184-11
"At present, there is no scoring abbreviation for a boat that takes a
penalty by retiring during a
race (rule 44.1(b)) or retires as required by Appendix P2.2 or P2.3. In
these circumstances, the
race committee either scores the boat RAF or DNF. RAF is incorrect, since
the boat retired
before finishing. DNF does not adequately describe the situation.
RET is the appropriate abbreviation to use for a boat that retires in
these circumstances. There is
no reason to maintain RAF, since RET covers any retirement, whether before
or after finishing.
Rule 64.1 permits the sailing instructions to specify a penalty other than
disqualification in some
circumstances. There is no scoring abbreviation in A11 to describe such a
penalty. DPI has
gained near-universal acceptance. It is recommended, therefore, that this
abbreviation be added
to A11."
So when a boat takes a penalty by retiring RET
When they do not finish for any other reason DNF
Gordon
On 19/11/2012 11:49, familyberry wrote:
I've just been looking through the above and see that for scoring, RAF
(retired after finishing) has been replaced with RET (retired.
Now at our club I've always used DNF (did not finish) to score those who
started a race but did not finish, so, whilst I know that the points scored
will be the same, can someone please explain the circumstances post January
2013 that I should score a boat as DNF or RET?
Most competitors who don't finish races insist on telling me that they
"retired"!
Hopefully a simple point to clarify.
Stewart
The treatment of boats that do not finish or retire in a points system based on the number of boats in the race is far easier to treat if the points are based on the number of boats that come to the starting area. DNS, DNF and RET have all made the effort to at least attempt to race, which, in our club at least, deserves recognition.
Gordon
···
On 19/11/2012 22:10, Ian Savell wrote:
Jon's proposal is good. Where clubs award points on the basis of finishers, RAF should always have been treated as a non- finish. When a boat retires after finishing it is acknowledging that it should not in fact have finished - it is simply retiring too late. To treat RAF as a finish in those circumstances could encourage bad sportsmanship, by finishing you may be able to worsen another boat's score.
On 19 November 2012 18:49, Jon Eskdale <jon@eskdale.org > <mailto:jon@eskdale.org>> wrote:
OK,
Its in V2.6.1 or latter (Not released yet)
When you generate a New Series there is now no RAF in the scoring
code. Instead there is a RET.
One problem this causes is that the RET code can be applied if the
boat finished or didn't finish. Some clubs use codes that
generate points based on the number of finishers. So if you are
using this be careful. RET defaults to not finishing which is I
guess OK for most cases. You can of course change this and you
can if you wish also put an RAF code in as well though it won't
comply with the new RRS.
Note the RET code is only generated if you start a new series. If
you are starting with a previous Sailwave (.blw) file then the
scoring system will be as it was previously, You will need to edit
the RAF code to RET and change the Finished to No from Yes, when
you are ready to start using the new codes..
Jon
On 19 November 2012 13:31, Malcolm Osborne <malcolmo@telkomsa.net > <mailto:malcolmo@telkomsa.net>> wrote:
Jon,
I think that this can now be put into the next convenient SW
release.
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield South Africa
On 2012/11/19 15:09, Gordon Davies wrote:
As per submission 184-11
"At present, there is no scoring abbreviation for a boat that
takes a penalty by retiring during a
race (rule 44.1(b)) or retires as required by Appendix P2.2
or P2.3. In these circumstances, the
race committee either scores the boat RAF or DNF. RAF is
incorrect, since the boat retired
before finishing. DNF does not adequately describe the situation.
RET is the appropriate abbreviation to use for a boat that
retires in these circumstances. There is
no reason to maintain RAF, since RET covers any retirement,
whether before or after finishing.
Rule 64.1 permits the sailing instructions to specify a
penalty other than disqualification in some
circumstances. There is no scoring abbreviation in A11 to
describe such a penalty. DPI has
gained near-universal acceptance. It is recommended,
therefore, that this abbreviation be added
to A11."
So when a boat takes a penalty by retiring RET
When they do not finish for any other reason DNF
Gordon
On 19/11/2012 11:49, familyberry wrote:
I've just been looking through the above and see that for
scoring, RAF (retired after finishing) has been replaced
with RET (retired.
Now at our club I've always used DNF (did not finish) to
score those who started a race but did not finish, so,
whilst I know that the points scored will be the same, can
someone please explain the circumstances post January 2013
that I should score a boat as DNF or RET?
Most competitors who don't finish races insist on telling me
that they "retired"!
Hopefully a simple point to clarify.
Stewart
-- Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype "eskdale"