Hi,
Has anyone found a good source for current Portsmouth Yardstick
ratings for using with Sailwave? The ones in the Resources section of
the Sailwave website seem to be very old.
Thanks,
Nick
RYA is the official source for Portsmouth Yardstick ratings. There has been a fairly recent issue of 2008 numbers.
Go to http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/technical/pys.htm
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield, South Africa
···
----- Original Message -----
From:
nickcj2000
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 11:56 PM
Subject: [sailwave] Ratings
Hi,
Has anyone found a good source for current Portsmouth Yardstick
ratings for using with Sailwave? The ones in the Resources section of
the Sailwave website seem to be very old.
Thanks,
Nick
Nick,
Yes they are old in the resources section of the Sailwave website. The RYA have a copyright notice in the versions available for download from their website, so technically one should not make them available from other sources without that notice. Unfortunately you cannot just use the Excel files available from the RYA website as is in Sailwave, they need manipulation. I have asked the RYA to either
- post the manipulated files I supplied them on the Portsmouth Yardstick scheme area of their website
- allow them to be available from the Sailwave website
- do both
I am waiting a response. However I will be seeing the appropriate person in the next couple of days, so I will be chasing it up.
Kind regards,
Huw
From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of nickcj2000
···
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 28 March 2008 21:57
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Ratings
Hi,
Has anyone found a good source for current Portsmouth Yardstick
ratings for using with Sailwave? The ones in the Resources section of
the Sailwave website seem to be very old.
Thanks,
Nick
-- This email has been verified as Virus free. Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net
While RYA claims PYS to be the most successful handicapping system in the
World (but many others claim too), the system is probably for dinghy
sailing, but the Excel file found on their site is very poor for cruisers
(62 boat types and versions, most of them don't appear in French HN tables,
approx 1400 types and versions). As names are not normalised, it is
sometimes very difficult to find matches. And when a match is found, it is
not necessarily a true one (Dehler 34 is the official name of three
different boat types).
I read everywhere about PY for this type, everyone known a number, but I
don't find a reference.
In a forum of British Microcuppers owners, I find a PY 1084, while the
French HN describes more than 20 types and versions with TMF ranging from
0.6166 to 0.7472 (means if one is the boat described in unofficial PY table
as 1084, the other may be 895 (faster than First 31.7 or Elan 333)... or
1313 (much slower than Westerly Centaur).
Just transforming the table of primary PY will not help us a lot.
Publication of a conversion rule from other handicapping system could be of
great help. Example, PY = 770/TMF with TMF taken from French HN
Phil
Nick,
Yes they are old in the resources section of the Sailwave website. The
RYA
···
On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:06:40 -0000, "Huw Pearce" <huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk> wrote:
have a copyright notice in the versions available for download from their
website, so technically one should not make them available from other
sources without that notice. Unfortunately you cannot just use the Excel
files available from the RYA website as is in Sailwave, they need
manipulation. I have asked the RYA to either
a.. post the manipulated files I supplied them on the Portsmouth
Yardstick
scheme area of their website
b.. allow them to be available from the Sailwave website
c.. do both
I am waiting a response. However I will be seeing the appropriate person
in
the next couple of days, so I will be chasing it up.Kind regards,
Huw-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of
nickcj2000
Sent: 28 March 2008 21:57
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] RatingsHi,
Has anyone found a good source for current Portsmouth Yardstick
ratings for using with Sailwave? The ones in the Resources section of
the Sailwave website seem to be very old.
Thanks,
Nick--
This email has been verified as Virus free.
Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1348 - Release Date:
28/03/2008
10:58
Philippe,
The RYA figures are produced from returns form clubs, if a class is not reported or there are very few returns for that class the RYA do not publish a rating. Also they publish different ratings for a class if it has a different configuration, for example class might be available with 3 different keel arrangements, 2 different sail plans. Therefore the RYA would publish if they had the statistically meaningful data 6 different ratings!
The RYA can only deal with the information they are provided with and unfortunately cruiser returns in particular have been dropping but so have returns for others. As I mentioned in a posting to this group, the RYA have recognised this and are trailing a system over the next 9 months , with the view to it going mainstream in early 2009, that makes it much easier for clubs to send in the data they RYA need to produce ratings. Essentially the system will take the raw race data, e.g. class, sail number, elapsed time, rating used and the configuration data documented in the Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme documentation on the website. This data will then be analysed in the same way it is now but crucially (in my view) the analysis will be based on raw data not individual club consolidated data.
The potential is that each month updated information could be published and new classes could get provisional ratings much more quickly. Other things that have been discussed include
- providing each club that provides information with rating values for the classes sailed at their club based on their data but using the same analysis techniques
- providing classes with rating information based on age (aka sail number) - some classes here in the UK already do this this
- analysis of performance according to wind speed (provided this information is submitted by clubs)
- analysis of different bands of competitors, currently the RYA use the top two-thirds of boats in a race, but is there a difference if you exclude the top 10% and bottom 25% for example.
Bottom line is that we all know that handicap systems all have their weaknesses, however the RYA scheme is based on analysis of performance in real races. Its weakness is that it has a 12-month at least time lag. This new initiative has the potential to significantly reduce the time lag but only if the clubs buy into the ease of use.
Kind regards,
Huw
···
-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]** On Behalf Of** philippe@detroy.org
Sent: 29 March 2008 11:38
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Ratings
While RYA claims PYS to be the most successful handicapping system in the
World (but many others claim too), the system is probably for dinghy
sailing, but the Excel file found on their site is very poor for cruisers
(62 boat types and versions, most of them don’t appear in French HN tables,
approx 1400 types and versions). As names are not normalised, it is
sometimes very difficult to find matches. And when a match is found, it is
not necessarily a true one (Dehler 34 is the official name of three
different boat types).I read everywhere about PY for this type, everyone known a number, but I
don’t find a reference.
In a forum of British Microcuppers owners, I find a PY 1084, while the
French HN describes more than 20 types and versions with TMF ranging from
0.6166 to 0.7472 (means if one is the boat described in unofficial PY table
as 1084, the other may be 895 (faster than First 31.7 or Elan 333)… or
1313 (much slower than Westerly Centaur).Just transforming the table of primary PY will not help us a lot.
Publication of a conversion rule from other handicapping system could be of
great help. Example, PY = 770/TMF with TMF taken from French HNPhil
On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:06:40 -0000, “Huw Pearce” <huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk > > wrote:
Nick,
Yes they are old in the resources section of the Sailwave website. The
RYA
have a copyright notice in the versions available for download from their
website, so technically one should not make them available from other
sources without that notice. Unfortunately you cannot just use the Excel
files available from the RYA website as is in Sailwave, they need
manipulation. I have asked the RYA to either
a… post the manipulated files I supplied them on the Portsmouth
Yardstick
scheme area of their website
b… allow them to be available from the Sailwave website
c… do both
I am waiting a response. However I will be seeing the appropriate person
in
the next couple of days, so I will be chasing it up.Kind regards,
Huw-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf
Of
nickcj2000
Sent: 28 March 2008 21:57
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.comSubject: [sailwave] Ratings
Hi,
Has anyone found a good source for current Portsmouth Yardstick
ratings for using with Sailwave? The ones in the Resources section of
the Sailwave website seem to be very old.
Thanks,
Nick–
This email has been verified as Virus free.
Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1348 - Release Date:
28/03/2008
10:58
-- This email has been verified as Virus free. Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net
Huw,
I assume the system is working properly with classes, i.e. for dinghies.
For cruisers, they are in mixed fleets, except for Contessa 32, J-80, First
31.7 or such.
What I'm pointing out is that foreign systems with a wide statistic base
like French HN is not interfaced, so the very small number of PY published
is leading to local tables and some anarchy.
What is also shown by comparison is that matching boats are clearly not
rated the same way by RYA and FFVoile. Out of 25 matching types, as
accuracy of HN is approx 15 seconds/hour, 6 types are within very
acceptable range (same HN group, +/- 15 sec/hr), 4 others are between 16
and 45 seconds (0.5 HN group), 7 between 46 and 75 seconds (1 HN group), 1/
of the boat give differences 1:15 to 2:30 sec/hr...
The same exchange of data is already done between RYA and FFVoile, PY x TMF
= 1000, and the French are the managing authority for popular French
classes, the RYA does the same for UK classes.
Phil
Philippe,
The RYA figures are produced from returns form clubs, if a class is not
reported or there are very few returns for that class the RYA do not
publish a rating. Also they publish different ratings for a class if it
has a different configuration, for example class might be available with
3
different keel arrangements, 2 different sail plans. Therefore the RYA
would publish if they had the statistically meaningful data 6 different
ratings!The RYA can only deal with the information they are provided with and
unfortunately cruiser returns in particular have been dropping but so
have
returns for others. As I mentioned in a posting to this group, the RYA
have
recognised this and are trailing a system over the next 9 months , with
the view to it going mainstream in early 2009, that makes it much easier
for clubs to send in the data they RYA need to produce ratings.
Essentially the system will take the raw race data, e.g. class, sail
number, elapsed time, rating used and the configuration data documented
in
the Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme documentation on the website. This data
will then be analysed in the same way it is now but crucially (in my
view)
the analysis will be based on raw data not individual club consolidated
data.The potential is that each month updated information could be published
and new classes could get provisional ratings much more quickly. Other
things that have been discussed include
a.. providing each club that provides information with rating values
for
the classes sailed at their club based on their data but using the same
analysis techniques
b.. providing classes with rating information based on age (aka sail
number) - some classes here in the UK already do this this
c.. analysis of performance according to wind speed (provided this
information is submitted by clubs)
d.. analysis of different bands of competitors, currently the RYA use
the top two-thirds of boats in a race, but is there a difference if you
exclude the top 10% and bottom 25% for example.
Bottom line is that we all know that handicap systems all have their
weaknesses, however the RYA scheme is based on analysis of performance in
real races. Its weakness is that it has a 12-month at least time lag.
This
new initiative has the potential to significantly reduce the time lag but
only if the clubs buy into the ease of use.Kind regards,
HuwFrom: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of philippe@detroy.org
Sent: 29 March 2008 11:38
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RatingsWhile RYA claims PYS to be the most successful handicapping system in
the
World (but many others claim too), the system is probably for dinghy
sailing, but the Excel file found on their site is very poor for
cruisers
(62 boat types and versions, most of them don't appear in French HN
tables,
approx 1400 types and versions). As names are not normalised, it is
sometimes very difficult to find matches. And when a match is found, it
is
not necessarily a true one (Dehler 34 is the official name of three
different boat types).I read everywhere about PY for this type, everyone known a number, but
I
don't find a reference.
In a forum of British Microcuppers owners, I find a PY 1084, while the
French HN describes more than 20 types and versions with TMF ranging
from
0.6166 to 0.7472 (means if one is the boat described in unofficial PY
table
as 1084, the other may be 895 (faster than First 31.7 or Elan 333)...
or
1313 (much slower than Westerly Centaur).
Just transforming the table of primary PY will not help us a lot.
Publication of a conversion rule from other handicapping system could
be
of
great help. Example, PY = 770/TMF with TMF taken from French HNPhil
> Nick,
>
> Yes they are old in the resources section of the Sailwave website.
The
···
On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 12:09:50 -0000, "Huw Pearce" <huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk> wrote:
-----Original Message-----
On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:06:40 -0000, "Huw Pearce" <huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk> > > wrote:RYA
> have a copyright notice in the versions available for download from
their
> website, so technically one should not make them available from other
> sources without that notice. Unfortunately you cannot just use the
Excel
> files available from the RYA website as is in Sailwave, they need
> manipulation. I have asked the RYA to either
> a.. post the manipulated files I supplied them on the Portsmouth
> Yardstick
> scheme area of their website
> b.. allow them to be available from the Sailwave website
> c.. do both
> I am waiting a response. However I will be seeing the appropriate
person
> in
> the next couple of days, so I will be chasing it up.
>
> Kind regards,
> Huw
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf
> Of
> nickcj2000
> Sent: 28 March 2008 21:57
> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [sailwave] Ratings
>
>
> Hi,
> Has anyone found a good source for current Portsmouth Yardstick
> ratings for using with Sailwave? The ones in the Resources section of
> the Sailwave website seem to be very old.
> Thanks,
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>