I am new to sailwave and have notice that the instance of boats sharing a position (i.e. joint 1st etc…)is common, when recalculating the results using formula total seconds * 1000 ^ handicap the result is conclusive, am I missing an option to correct this please.
David Woolston
Coldham Hall Sailing Club
Hi David,
If you can send me your Sailwave.BLW file I will have a look and
see if I can spot the problem.
Kind regards,
Huw
On 12/12/2016 19:31,
[sailwave] wrote:
I am new to sailwave and have notice that theinstance of boats sharing a position (i.e. joint 1st
etc…)is common, when recalculating the results using
formula total seconds * 1000 ^ handicap the result is
conclusive, am I missing an option to correct this
please.
David Woolston
Coldham Hall Sailing Club
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
Dear Huw
Many thanks for reply, if you follow this link http://www.coldhamhallsailingclub.co.uk/raceprogramme/sailwave/winter_series_2016/winterseries1.htm
please look at race 5 top two entries corrected time 1:13:48 you can see the problem if you use my formula Andwun is a clear winner
Best wishes
David
Hi David,
The calculation is correct, when you calculate the corrected time you round it to the nearest second. For both boats in your example the corrected time is identical so they have the same position.
Jon
On 12 December 2016 at 19:31, woolston546@btinternet.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
I am new to sailwave and have notice that the instance of boats sharing a position (i.e. joint 1st etc…)is common, when recalculating the results using formula total seconds * 1000 ^ handicap the result is conclusive, am I missing an option to correct this please.
David Woolston
Coldham Hall Sailing Club
Jon Eskdale
07530 112233
Skype “eskdale”
Hi David,
I see Jon has already replied and I agree that to the nearest
second, with rounding as specified by the RYA Portsmouth Yardstick
scheme, Yeoman 180 & Wayfarer 10001 have the same corrected
time using the formulae:
corrected time = (elapsed time / rating)
- 1000
Yeoman 180 corrected time in seconds = 4428.3186 applying
Wayfarer 10001 corrected time in seconds = 4427.6896 applying
All times in seconds, any decimals are rounded to the nearest
whole figure with a decimal of 0.5and above rounded up and less
than 0.5 down*
Whilst creating a Sailwave file using the data from your web site
I noticed a couple of things:
R5 Yeoman 80 has a ; in its elapsed time - this sort of thing
Wayfarer W9531 has a default rating for R1 of 1134 but this
Kind regards,
Huw
Hi Jon,
Rounding to the whole second used to be the method in the old rules of sailing, but it was removed many versions ago. Rounding is now up to the individual handicap/rating systems. It looks like the RYA PN scheme requires rounding to the whole seconds. I believe that US PN and definitely PHRF doesn’t specify rounding, which means that no rounding should be used. Below is the rule:
Regards,
Peter
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 2:31 PM, Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Hi David,
The calculation is correct, when you calculate the corrected time you round it to the nearest second. For both boats in your example the corrected time is identical so they have the same position.
Jon
Jon Eskdale
07530 112233
Skype “eskdale”
On 12 December 2016 at 19:31, woolston546@btinternet.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
I am new to sailwave and have notice that the instance of boats sharing a position (i.e. joint 1st etc…)is common, when recalculating the results using formula total seconds * 1000 ^ handicap the result is conclusive, am I missing an option to correct this please.
David Woolston
Coldham Hall Sailing Club
Hi Peter,
There was a thread on this SUG back in 2010 about the same issue
and Art Engel wrote, I think, the best advice and I say it still
holds true. I have included Art’s SUG message and the message it
was in response to below.
In summary if the finish/elapsed time is taken as whole seconds
then the corrected time should be whole seconds, otherwise you are
adding more precision than the original data which is not usual in
scientific/engineering.
Also there was another thread by Art Engel started on 14th
December 2011 regarding ‘Rounding of Tied Points’ which in a reply
from Colin Jenkins on 16th December 2011, Colin stated that
" Sailwave is
currently schizophrenic. It rounds
corrected times to once second
(hardwired). It rounds points
calculations from codes (RDG etc) and
point accumulation as per the field you
mention."
Here in the UK for the two rating systems administered by the RYA
All times in seconds, any decimals are roundedto the nearest whole figure with a decimal of 0.5
and above rounded up and less than 0.5 down*
Also from the ORC document
[] page
24
401.2 Corrected time shall
be displayed in days:hours:minutes:seconds. When calculating
corrected time, the boat’s elapsed time shall be translated to
seconds, calculations shall be made and results shall be then
rounded to the nearest second (for example: 12345.5 = 12346
seconds). This time in seconds shall be then put back in
days:hours:minutes:seconds format.
So it seems to me there is at least some common acceptance that
corrected times are rounded to nearest whole number, at least here
in UK.
Kind regards,
Huw
SUG post by Art Engel
From - Tue Jun 29 17:41:12 2010
I think you might be mixing two issues - whether SailWave can be set to round to a precision defined by the user and what precision SHOULD be used. I think I might take issue with your statement "By rounding the result to the nearest second a tie is being created that should not exists [sic]."
I would agree that it might be helpful if SailWave could be set to round to say tenths or hundredths of a second. However, I think that would only rarely, if ever, be appropriate. Hence, I wouldn't put it high on a priority list of features for a scoring program (or even include it on such a list).
The RRS generally don't specify stuff that can be resolved without a special definition. For instance, they don't specify what it means to "tack" so the commonly understood definition applies and does an adequate job. [Being "on a tack" is a little different because of sailing "by the lee" so a special definition IS required for that.]
In the case of rounding corrected times, the RRS used to specify that all corrected times should be rounded to the nearest second - even if the elapsed times were taken to a tenth of a second (which is what you get when times are taken with a stopwatch that displays so-called decimal hours [9.545 hours]). But, rating/handicap systems can specify the precision of corrected times plus we have the standard scientific and engineering conventions so the "rounding" language was deleted as unnecessary.
As a scorer, with no instructions from the RRS I would decide how to proceed in the following order:
1. Do what the rating/handicap system says
2. Use scientific and engineering conventions
3. Do what most other scorers are doing (i.e., follow tradition)
4. Do what your scoring program allows
So, if rating or handicap system is silent then I would use the standard conventions. The standard convention is to round final calculations to the precision of the least significant component. So, if somewhere in your calculation formula you are using whole seconds (but tenths or hundredths for other components) then final numbers should be rounded to the nearest second. Finish times are typically taken to the nearest whole second so that would dictate corrected times rounded to the nearest whole second (with standard PHRF-type calculations rating are given in whole seconds as well so that is a 2nd place where the minimal precision is nearest whole seconds).
If virtually everyone is using some rounding convention then I would consider that as a possible alternative to the standard conventions. Since most scoring is rounded to the nearest whole second that would be a 2nd reason to round to the nearest whole second.
Finally, if your scoring program only allows a certain kind of rounding then I would simply use that. So long as all boats are scored the same way there isn't any unfairness and there shouldn't be grounds for any redress by competitors. From this perspective no method of rounding could ever be "wrong" but rounding to the nearest whole second would be BEST when finish times are recorded to the nearest whole second.
BOTTOM LINE: I think boats whose corrected time is the same when rounded to the nearest whole second SHOULD be tied (based on whole second finish times). However, it wouldn't break the RRS if such boats were scored as NOT tied based on a difference in tenths of a second so long as the corrected times of ALL boats were calculated to the same precision (all boats in the same class for the whole regatta or series, not all boats in other classes as well). In that regard, I think SailWave is just fine rounding corrected times to the nearest second since I would guess that 99.999% of finish times are entered to the nearest second. That is consistent with standard convention, usual scoring practice and tradition. I do NOT see a problem here.
Art Engel
S. Mark Townsend wrote:
> PROBLEM 1 - Corrected Time Precision
> > The corrected times of Rebel Yell and Grand Illusion are not being
calculated sufficient precision to resolve the corrected time tie
between the boats. In the 2005-2008 Racing Rules of Sailing rule A3 was
changed to remove to the phrase "corrected to the nearest second" so
that the individual rating rules now determine the precision of the
corrected results. By rounding the result to the nearest second a tie is
being created that should not exists. There is no method in SailWave to
specify the precision to which you want the corrected time calculated.
> > > RRS 2009-2012
> > A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING PLACES
> > The time of a boat's starting signal shall be her starting time, and
the order in which boats finish a race shall determine their finishing
places. However, when a handicap or rating system is used a boat's
corrected time shall determine her finishing place.
> > > Mark Townsend
>
http://www.orc.org/rules/ORC%20Rating%20Systems%202016.pdfs_mark_townsend@hotmail.com
On 13/12/2016 23:18, Peter van Muyden
[sailwave] wrote:
Hi Jon,
Rounding to the whole second used to be the method inthe old rules of sailing, but it was removed many
versions ago. Rounding is now up to the individual
handicap/rating systems. It looks like the RYA PN
scheme requires rounding to the whole seconds. I
believe that US PN and definitely PHRF doesn’t specify
rounding, which means that no rounding should be used.
Below is the rule:
Regards,
Peter
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 2:31 PM,Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com
[sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com
wrote:Hi David,
The calculation is correct, when youcalculate the corrected time you round it
to the nearest second. For both boats in
your example the corrected time is
identical so they have the same position.
Jon
Jon Eskdale
07530 112233
Skype “eskdale”
On 12 December2016 at 19:31, woolston546@btinternet.com
[sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com
wrote:I am new to sailwaveand have notice that the
instance of boats sharing
a position (i.e. joint 1st
etc…)is common, when
recalculating the results
using formula total
seconds * 1000 ^ handicap
the result is conclusive,
am I missing an option to
correct this please.
David Woolston
Coldham Hall SailingClub
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.