I race a Weta 4.4 Trimaran in Sydney, Australia and we are trying to get a more representative handicap rating for the Weta which has provisionally been given a rating from a formula used to handicap catamarans - and plainly it’s not a cat.
I know there are some mixed fleet regattas which have included the Weta but I can only find final placings online.
Can anyone provide me with the full data including finishing times, wind strength, sea conditions and course type (windward-leward or around the cans).
As you well know I have been fighting a lone battle with the handicappers for five years. Only two UK clubs have, as far as I know, submitted returns which include the Weta and about 120 of these have been my returns. Unfortunately many of these have ‘timed out’ and for the last year we have not had an official handicap. The new PY list will be announced at the Dinghy Show at the end of Feb and we live in hope of a listing I still have many of these results but I am not going to dig them out and send them to you one at a time. The fact is that the Weta goes about the same speed as an RS 400. A bit better in strong winds, about the same as them in a drift but does rather badly in F2. It is usually faster than a Fireball, but probably slower than a 600 but less likely to capsize. We mostly sail geographical courses with the occasional windward-leeward which is the Weta’s worst course by far. As I approach my mid seventies I realize that I haven’t got many years of this left and intend to buy the square top mainsail this year and see if i can get my club to give me about 935 in all conditions, all rigs. If they won’t play I shall resign all my club functions and the club will fold! The RYA PY movers and shakers certainly monitor this forum so perhaps they will take pity on us!
I have gathered some data which may help you (see separate mail) - but I believe there’s more stored in the various sailing handicap management systems like Sailwave that can make the process much easier for all concerned.
The yardsick authority in Australia have said they would accept GPS tracks to derive a handicap rating which is a much more scientific method in my opinion but they also need proof too.
Not a question of taking pity. UK PY is an observed performance system, working on a statistical basis, and if there isn't enough performance to observe then we can't issue a meaningful rating.
There's certainly over a hundred, maybe several hundreds of classes and configurations out there that are not raced in sufficient numbers to provide a meaningful number. A dispassionate club officer can and will produce fairer numbers by careful observation.
The basic problem is that we are looking for a smaller number, variation in performance of boats, within the much larger number of variation between sailors, and that takes a lot of data.
A useful exercise, for those dissatisfied with handicap figures, is to rework series results for an alternative handicap. This is pretty easy with Sailwave . The results usually demonstrate that the odd 10 points here or there make very little difference to series results.
The other useful exercise, for those who feel hard done by, is to swap boats with a club hotshot in something with a well established handicap. If he's suddenly down the pan and you are way out the front then you have good evidence to place in front of your club handicapper.
It's a funny thing tho, I often hear people say other folks boats have too favourable handicaps, but rarely their own.
Ahhh - another lecture! I am well aware that the PY is an observed performance system and a couple of years ago there was enough performance to observe for a PN to be published. Since then the amount of data available has more than doubled. And please note also that no one in the class has complained that the last published number was unfair - my club’s page on the PYS website has the Weta (ie me) sailing to 948 as opposed to a last published PN of 950. My club also sails the N18 which is another class whose PN has not been published for lack of data. Surely an experimental number could be arrived at for both these classes? (940 for the 18 and 950 for the Weta would not tread on many toes though you could perhaps knock a bit off both without starting a riot). I believe the real objection to publishing a number for the Weta is its ‘instability’ - something which shows up if you use Sailwave to constantly feed data to the PYS but does not show up in annual paper returns. Yes there is instability - it is caused by constantly being taken out at the start by people who are incapable of avoiding a boat as wide as a trimaran!
I also fail to see why handicapping authorities can’t use data from other regions/countries for an initial handicap (boats float the same way up everywhere!).
And, as we’re in the 21st centuary, then use GPS data to generate polar diagrams and compare this with known boats to obtain more accurate evidence-based data - rather than trying to compare results over a race which may have so many other varaibles, none of which are to do with optimum performance of the boat.
iRegatta (iOS/Android) for example will generate a Polar after recording a race.
RaceQs shows a real-time or recorded track and performance data of boats on the same course.
I shall make this my last comment at risk of being accused of another lecture.
Many things would indeed be possible given enough time, money, resources and commitment by many people. The current system has the single advantage that it basically works given the resources available and without clubs having to do very much they don't already do.
A single example must suffice. The sailors of one class at my club were bemoaning how much their empirical handicap has dropped in recent years, which has coincided with the introduction of different building materials. I agreed that I am astonished by the change and, bearing in mind we have an adequate supply of varied specification boats at the club, offered to help them run a structured trial. It would mean devoting a couple of days to some pretty intensive short course racing with much swapping of sailors and sails between boats. When the trials were finished I'd do the analysis and we'd be able to make well informed judgement about what is really going on.
The idea was not greeted with enthusiasm and no such trial looks like taking place.
Have to agree with that. Handicap racing is always a compromise.
As currently implemented, the RYA PY system needs lots of
sailor-boat combinations to give a ‘fair’ rating: or do we want to
go back to the previous individual club returns using the (very
necessary) crew skill factor?
Mike
Lancing SC
Many things would indeed be possible given enough time,
money, resources and commitment by many people. The
current system has the single advantage that it basically
works given the resources available and without clubs
having to do very much they don’t already do.
I’d suggest the current system is basically not working because you’re not getting the returns and people don’t want to commit time to provide you with better data. So don’t keep doing it the hard way when there are easier alternatives.
iRegatta is free. So instead of asking people to commit time and boats on a specific day, just ask them to either acquire a GPS or Smartphone and upload their tracks to iRegatta (the app does this automatically) for a few months - and log when they swap boats (by adding a comment to the track). Get some to add a video camera to the back of the boat for more insight (the TCL SV200 action cam coss $100 has a 170 deg lens and runs for 2 hours).
This give you much better data than just finish times and for comparison purposes you can ask some of the closest rival class to do the same - the data is there for everyone to see and the only requirement is to push a button when you start and finish your days racing.
For example, this link has my track Vs another Weta last weekend. Click on the [Vs] button to see the comparative stats. I was sailing 10% faster - he sailed 10% less distance and won as a result. If you replay the races with the tracks turned on you can see he was sailing higher on the upwind legs. No amount of analysis of results would have told you that. GPS Action Replay (http://gpsactionreplay.free.fr/) will give more analsis including generating polars and analyse your speed through tacks and gybes.
It may look like rocket science but it depends which end of the rocket you’re looking at:-)
I shall make this my last comment at risk of being accused of another lecture.
Many things would indeed be possible given enough time, money, resources and commitment by many people. The current system has the single advantage that it basically works given the resources available and without clubs having to do very much they don’t already do.
A single example must suffice. The sailors of one class at my club were bemoaning how much their empirical handicap has dropped in recent years, which has coincided with the introduction of different building materials. I agreed that I am astonished by the change and, bearing in mind we have an adequate supply of varied specification boats at the club, offered to help them run a structured trial. It would mean devoting a couple of days to some pretty intensive short course racing with much swapping of sailors and sails between boats. When the trials were finished I’d do the analysis and we’d be able to make well informed judgement about what is really going on.
The idea was not greeted with enthusiasm and no such trial looks like taking place.
I also fail to see why handicapping authorities can’t use data from other regions/countries for an initial handicap (boats float the same way up everywhere!).
And, as we’re in the 21st centuary, then use GPS data to generate polar diagrams and compare this with known boats to obtain more accurate evidence-based data - rather than trying to compare results over a race which may have so many other varaibles, none of which are to do with optimum performance of the boat.
iRegatta (iOS/Android) for example will generate a Polar after recording a race.
RaceQs shows a real-time or recorded track and performance data of boats on the same course.
Unless you have no current or tidal effect using data from GPS is useless. it records speed and course OVER GROUND not heading or speed through the water. Anybody using GPS data in tidal areas or water affected by current is giving themselves a pretend sense of precision, especially if that data is used in creating a polar diagram/chart.
On the face of it there is no reason why local handicappers can’t use base data from other handicapping authorities and or the boats designers assuming those designers are suing modern CAD system to design the hull and derive VPP data from that design.
Well no, the GPS data is not “useless” particularly if the tide data is known, the race is at sack water or the sailing area isn’t very tidal.
And if you compare the polar or track from a known boat on the same course you can establish what adjustment you need to make for tide. RaceQs is ideal for this. Alternatively you can average the data to produce a polar after a number of races.
Just because it’s relatively new technology (GPS has been around since the 80s) doesn’t make it useless otherwise so many sailors wouldn’t be using it. I would suggest it’s much better to rely on actual data rather than using theoretical estimates of performance - CAD diagrams won’t tell you everything (and neither will manufacturers!) .
In many countries, the Weta has been handicapped using the SCHRS system designed for catamarans and plainly it’s not a catamaran. It’s more of a “skiff with training wheels” since it has two modes - a high drag mode in winds under about 9 knots and a planing mode in winds over 10 knots when the centre hull planes both up and downwind. Downwind speeds can be up to 18 knots singlehanded - and over 20 two-up.This is one of the reasons the results are so variable coupled with the fact that many of the owners are “more mature” and don’t always sail it to the maximum performance.
Unless you have no current or tidal effect using data from GPS is useless. it records speed and course OVER GROUND not heading or speed through the water. Anybody using GPS data in tidal areas or water affected by current is giving themselves a pretend sense of precision, especially if that data is used in creating a polar diagram/chart.
On the face of it there is no reason why local handicappers can’t use base data from other handicapping authorities and or the boats designers assuming those designers are suing modern CAD system to design the hull and derive VPP data from that design.