rinderle B High Point scoring

Imported from Yahoo
1

We have a fleet of over 25 Martin 242s here in Vancouver, CA. We're
planning on using a High Point scoring system for our events and
overall season series.

I've scored our first Regatta using Rinderle B but I have a few
questions:
1. 7 boats showed up on Saturday and raced 2 races. 1 boat did not
compete on Sunday. How are the scores for DNC computed? It appears
that the boat which didn't show up scores 19.3 points and the boat
which raced but came last, scores 10.5 points.
2. In the first race, all boats except 1 sailed the wrong course and
were eventually scored DNF after being protested. Sailwave gave a score
of "2.41 DNF" to the boats and 91.2 to the winner.
3. In the second race, 2 boats were OCS. They were given scores of
44.06 while the boat that re-started but came last was given only 10.5
points instead of 36.3 (for 5th out of 7); although all finishing boats
were scored as if racing in a 5 boat fleet and would also need
adjustment if the last place is re-scored.
4. I assume the "Total" column is the net after throw-out(s) have been
discarded and that the "Nett" column is the sum of all scores before
discards. The calculation for the boats that sailed all races seems to
compute but the resulting numbers for the boat that missed the 3 races
on day 2 are a mystery.
5. I do not underestand why a DNF scores 2.41 points and an OCS, 44.06.
6. It is clear I do not understand how Rinderle B actually deals with
much of the results!

Any help would be appreciated.
Craig Strand

2

Craig,

Sorry, can’t answer about Rinderle B.

I have ‘rolled my own’ High Points scoring system and there is also the CHIPS high point scoring, which is similar to Rinderle B. Both come form the basis that you get more points for doing well in a bigger fleet.

In regards of TOTAL & NETT points; TOTAL is before any discards are taken into account and NETT is after taking out the discard points!

Kind regards,

Huw

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Craig S.
Sent:
27 March 2007 21:17
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] rinderle B High Point scoring

We have a fleet of over 25 Martin 242s here in Vancouver, CA. We’re
planning on using a High Point scoring system for our events and
overall season series.

I’ve scored our first Regatta using Rinderle B but I have a few
questions:

  1. 7 boats showed up on Saturday and raced 2 races. 1 boat did not
    compete on Sunday. How are the scores for DNC computed? It appears
    that the boat which didn’t show up scores 19.3 points and the boat
    which raced but came last, scores 10.5 points.
  2. In the first race, all boats except 1 sailed the wrong course and
    were eventually scored DNF after being protested. Sailwave gave a score
    of “2.41 DNF” to the boats and 91.2 to the winner.
  3. In the second race, 2 boats were OCS. They were given scores of
    44.06 while the boat that re-started but came last was given only 10.5
    points instead of 36.3 (for 5th out of 7); although all finishing boats
    were scored as if racing in a 5 boat fleet and would also need
    adjustment if the last place is re-scored.
  4. I assume the “Total” column is the net after throw-out(s) have been
    discarded and that the “Nett” column is the sum of all scores before
    discards. The calculation for the boats that sailed all races seems to
    compute but the resulting numbers for the boat that missed the 3 races
    on day 2 are a mystery.
  5. I do not underestand why a DNF scores 2.41 points and an OCS, 44.06.
  6. It is clear I do not understand how Rinderle B actually deals with
    much of the results!

Any help would be appreciated.
Craig Strand

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3

Thank you, Huw.

After further focus on the results, some things did become slightly clearer. My confusion over Nett vs Total was resolved however the means by which the scores are derived for other than a normal finish is still unclear.

I may resort to an alternate system as well after digging just a little deeper.

Thanks again,
Craig

···

On 3/28/07, Huw Pearce < huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk> wrote:

Craig,

Sorry, can’t answer about Rinderle B.

I have ‘rolled my own’ High Points scoring system and there is also the CHIPS high point scoring, which is similar to Rinderle B. Both come form the basis that you get more points for doing well in a bigger fleet.

In regards of TOTAL & NETT points; TOTAL is before any discards are taken into account and NETT is after taking out the discard points!

Kind regards,

Huw

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Craig S.
Sent:
27 March 2007 21:17
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] rinderle B High Point scoring

We have a fleet of over 25 Martin 242s here in Vancouver, CA. We’re
planning on using a High Point scoring system for our events and
overall season series.

I’ve scored our first Regatta using Rinderle B but I have a few
questions:

  1. 7 boats showed up on Saturday and raced 2 races. 1 boat did not
    compete on Sunday. How are the scores for DNC computed? It appears
    that the boat which didn’t show up scores 19.3 points and the boat
    which raced but came last, scores 10.5 points.
  2. In the first race, all boats except 1 sailed the wrong course and
    were eventually scored DNF after being protested. Sailwave gave a score
    of “2.41 DNF” to the boats and 91.2 to the winner.
  3. In the second race, 2 boats were OCS. They were given scores of
    44.06 while the boat that re-started but came last was given only 10.5
    points instead of 36.3 (for 5th out of 7); although all finishing boats
    were scored as if racing in a 5 boat fleet and would also need
    adjustment if the last place is re-scored.
  4. I assume the “Total” column is the net after throw-out(s) have been
    discarded and that the “Nett” column is the sum of all scores before
    discards. The calculation for the boats that sailed all races seems to
    compute but the resulting numbers for the boat that missed the 3 races
    on day 2 are a mystery.
  5. I do not underestand why a DNF scores 2.41 points and an OCS, 44.06.
  6. It is clear I do not understand how Rinderle B actually deals with
    much of the results!

Any help would be appreciated.
Craig Strand

--
This email has been verified as Virus free
Virus Protection and more available at [
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–
Craig S.

4

Most of your problems are strictly Sailwave issues.
I'll answer your questions from a Rinderle B point of view.

But first, I'm not entirely clear whether the
Rinderle B in Sailwave is actually an implementation of
the formula developed by Colin Burrell in response to
the Denver Sailing Association _or_ the original
lookup table developed by 'Jim Rinderle of Marblehead'
in the early 1980s (any more information, or even a primary
source would be welcome). Your reference to a score of
91.2 indicates the original lookup table

Rinderle B defined all last places as a score of 10.5,
irrespective of fleet size. Since I can't find a
primary source, I'm going to use results from
the Gulf of Maine Ocean Racing Association, who actively
use Rinderle B. Apart from last being consistently 10.5,
the next lower score is zero. This is fine for DNC,
but either GMORA has no OCS, DSQ, DNS etc, or it scores
them zero too. There are no cases of multiple 10.5s
that I can see.

Essentially it seems to me that it is up to you how
you score OCS, DNF, etc. However, scoring them as
number_racing+1 won't get a good result from a
lookup table which finishes at number_racing.

You have to tell Sailwave that this is what you want
through Scoring systems>Scoring codes

1. the score for last, 10.5 is correct.
2. 91.2 is correct from the lookup table.
3. the non-OCS scores should have been
calculated on the basis of a 7 boat race, so your last is
a 5th, as you suggest & scores 36.3. I can only suggest
that there is a problem in your scoring codes.
4. dealt with by someone else I think, but again, a
Sailwave issue rather than a Rinderle B.
5. see above.
6. see above again.

Chipstead High is a much better bet, and, if we are lucky,
will be implemented in Sailwave, real soon now. However,
the real issue is that of understanding the Sailwave
setup, especially the scoring codes. I still don't get
them right every time.--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Craig S."
<craig.strand@...> wrote:

···

We have a fleet of over 25 Martin 242s here in Vancouver, CA. We're
planning on using a High Point scoring system for our events and
overall season series.

I've scored our first Regatta using Rinderle B but I have a few
questions:
1. 7 boats showed up on Saturday and raced 2 races. 1 boat did not
compete on Sunday. How are the scores for DNC computed? It appears
that the boat which didn't show up scores 19.3 points and the boat
which raced but came last, scores 10.5 points.
2. In the first race, all boats except 1 sailed the wrong course and
were eventually scored DNF after being protested. Sailwave gave a score
of "2.41 DNF" to the boats and 91.2 to the winner.
3. In the second race, 2 boats were OCS. They were given scores of
44.06 while the boat that re-started but came last was given only 10.5
points instead of 36.3 (for 5th out of 7); although all finishing boats
were scored as if racing in a 5 boat fleet and would also need
adjustment if the last place is re-scored.
4. I assume the "Total" column is the net after throw-out(s) have been
discarded and that the "Nett" column is the sum of all scores before
discards. The calculation for the boats that sailed all races seems to
compute but the resulting numbers for the boat that missed the 3 races
on day 2 are a mystery.
5. I do not underestand why a DNF scores 2.41 points and an OCS, 44.06.
6. It is clear I do not understand how Rinderle B actually deals with
much of the results!

Any help would be appreciated.
Craig Strand

5

Craig

Malcolm and Huw have already correctly identified the nature of your
problems.

The main problem is that you need to edit your Sailwave Scoring System
Codes for Rinderle B as follows:

DNF – choose the bottom selection “Score a fixed number of points N” and enter a value of 5,
and for

DNC – again make the bottom selection and set the value N to 0 (zero),
and the same for OCS, DSQ.

That is all RTD and DSQ types of score are preset in Rinderle B at values
of 5 and zero respectively.

You may be interested to know that I have just added a new file “All
about CHIPS” into the SUG FILE area which you may be helpful (although slightly
mathematical in places). This not
only tells you how CHIPS evolved it makes some useful comments about the comparison
of Rinderle B with CHIPS and why the latter gives rather more sensible results.

By the way I have also updated the file (CHIPS scores.xls) that contains
a set of Excel spreadsheets that can be used to quickly calculate CHIPS scores for
any number of competing boats. The
file also includes a sophisticated set of macros that enables one to calculate
what one has to do to beat ones nearest competitor as one approaches the last
race of a series. The file can likewise be found in the SUG FILES area under
the name “CHIPS High Point Scoring Calculator”. For anyone interested in understanding how CHIPS scoring works
the Excel file is worth downloading to play with (but note the need to accept
the macros).

Colin has said that he will soon add CHIPS into the Sailwave repertoire and
this will be helpful to us all. (At
that point if anyone has any similar uncertainties with Scoring Codes I stand ready
to advise, but briefly for CHIPS – RTD/DNF are scored as number in race +1 and normally
DSQ/OCS/DNC are scored as zero).

Best of luck

Geoff

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfCraig Strand
Sent: 28 March 2007 14:27
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] rinderle B
High Point scoring

Thank you, Huw.

After further focus on the results, some things did become slightly clearer. My
confusion over Nett vs Total was resolved however the means by which the scores
are derived for other than a normal finish is still unclear.

I may resort to an alternate system as well after digging just a little deeper.

Thanks again,

Craig

On 3/28/07, Huw Pearce < huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk> wrote:

Craig,

Sorry, can’t answer about Rinderle B.

I have ‘rolled my own’ High Points scoring system and there is also
the CHIPS high point scoring, which is similar to Rinderle B. Both come form
the basis that you get more points for doing well in a bigger fleet.

In regards of TOTAL & NETT points; TOTAL is before any discards
are taken into account and NETT is after taking out the discard points!

Kind regards,

Huw

-----Original
Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Craig S.
Sent: 27 March 2007 21:17
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] rinderle B
High Point scoring

We have a fleet of over 25 Martin 242s
here in Vancouver, CA. We’re

planning on using a High Point scoring system for our events and

overall season series.

I’ve scored our first Regatta using Rinderle B but I have a few

questions:

  1. 7 boats showed up on Saturday and raced 2 races. 1 boat did not

compete on Sunday. How are the scores for DNC computed? It appears

that the boat which didn’t show up scores 19.3 points and the boat

which raced but came last, scores 10.5 points.

  1. In the first race, all boats except 1 sailed the wrong course and

were eventually scored DNF after being protested. Sailwave gave a score

of “2.41 DNF” to the boats and 91.2 to the winner.

  1. In the second race, 2 boats were OCS. They were given scores of

44.06 while the boat that re-started but came last was given only 10.5

points instead of 36.3 (for 5th out of 7); although all finishing boats

were scored as if racing in a 5 boat fleet and would also need

adjustment if the last place is re-scored.

  1. I assume the “Total” column is the net after throw-out(s) have
    been

discarded and that the “Nett” column is the sum of all scores before

discards. The calculation for the boats that sailed all races seems to

compute but the resulting numbers for the boat that missed the 3 races

on day 2 are a mystery.

  1. I do not underestand why a DNF scores 2.41 points and an OCS, 44.06.

  2. It is clear I do not understand how Rinderle B actually deals with

much of the results!

Any help would be appreciated.

Craig Strand

--

This email has been verified as Virus free

Virus Protection and more available at [](http://www.plus)

[http://www.plus](http://www.plus).net

–

Craig S.

6

Thanks Geoff. I appreciate getting walked through the edits needed to make the results more intelligible and reasonable. I’ll take a look at CHIPS again but because I’ll be passing off the scorekeeping duties, the facility of sailwave’s interface maintains a significant attraction.

Best regards,
Craig

···

On 3/31/07, Geoff Burrell geoff.burrell@btinternet.com wrote:

Craig

Malcolm and Huw have already correctly identified the nature of your
problems.

The main problem is that you need to edit your Sailwave Scoring System
Codes for Rinderle B as follows:

DNF – choose the bottom selection “Score a fixed number of points N” and enter a value of 5,
and for

DNC – again make the bottom selection and set the value N to 0 (zero),
and the same for OCS, DSQ.

That is all RTD and DSQ types of score are preset in Rinderle B at values
of 5 and zero respectively.

You may be interested to know that I have just added a new file “All
about CHIPS” into the SUG FILE area which you may be helpful (although slightly
mathematical in places). This not
only tells you how CHIPS evolved it makes some useful comments about the comparison
of Rinderle B with CHIPS and why the latter gives rather more sensible results.

By the way I have also updated the file (CHIPS scores.xls) that contains
a set of Excel spreadsheets that can be used to quickly calculate CHIPS scores for
any number of competing boats. The
file also includes a sophisticated set of macros that enables one to calculate
what one has to do to beat ones nearest competitor as one approaches the last
race of a series. The file can likewise be found in the SUG FILES area under
the name “CHIPS High Point Scoring Calculator”. For anyone interested in understanding how CHIPS scoring works
the Excel file is worth downloading to play with (but note the need to accept
the macros).

Colin has said that he will soon add CHIPS into the Sailwave repertoire and
this will be helpful to us all. (At
that point if anyone has any similar uncertainties with Scoring Codes I stand ready
to advise, but briefly for CHIPS – RTD/DNF are scored as number in race +1 and normally
DSQ/OCS/DNC are scored as zero).

Best of luck

Geoff

Subject: Re: [sailwave] rinderle B
High Point scoring

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfCraig Strand
Sent: 28 March 2007 14:27
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Thank you, Huw.

After further focus on the results, some things did become slightly clearer. My
confusion over Nett vs Total was resolved however the means by which the scores
are derived for other than a normal finish is still unclear.

I may resort to an alternate system as well after digging just a little deeper.

Thanks again,

Craig

On 3/28/07, Huw Pearce < > huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk> wrote:

Craig,

Sorry, can’t answer about Rinderle B.

I have ‘rolled my own’ High Points scoring system and there is also
the CHIPS high point scoring, which is similar to Rinderle B. Both come form
the basis that you get more points for doing well in a bigger fleet.

In regards of TOTAL & NETT points; TOTAL is before any discards
are taken into account and NETT is after taking out the discard points!

Kind regards,

Huw

-----Original
Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Craig S.
Sent: 27 March 2007 21:17
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] rinderle B
High Point scoring

We have a fleet of over 25 Martin 242s
here in Vancouver, CA. We’re

planning on using a High Point scoring system for our events and

overall season series.

I’ve scored our first Regatta using Rinderle B but I have a few

questions:

  1. 7 boats showed up on Saturday and raced 2 races. 1 boat did not

compete on Sunday. How are the scores for DNC computed? It appears

that the boat which didn’t show up scores 19.3 points and the boat

which raced but came last, scores 10.5 points.

  1. In the first race, all boats except 1 sailed the wrong course and

were eventually scored DNF after being protested. Sailwave gave a score

of “2.41 DNF” to the boats and 91.2 to the winner.

  1. In the second race, 2 boats were OCS. They were given scores of

44.06 while the boat that re-started but came last was given only 10.5

points instead of 36.3 (for 5th out of 7); although all finishing boats

were scored as if racing in a 5 boat fleet and would also need

adjustment if the last place is re-scored.

  1. I assume the “Total” column is the net after throw-out(s) have
    been

discarded and that the “Nett” column is the sum of all scores before

discards. The calculation for the boats that sailed all races seems to

compute but the resulting numbers for the boat that missed the 3 races

on day 2 are a mystery.

  1. I do not underestand why a DNF scores 2.41 points and an OCS, 44.06.

  2. It is clear I do not understand how Rinderle B actually deals with

much of the results!

Any help would be appreciated.

Craig Strand

--

This email has been verified as Virus free

Virus Protection and more available at [](http://www.plus)

[
http://www.plus](http://www.plus).net

–

Craig S.

–
Craig S.

7

Craig – Just to clarify. The CHIPS
Calculator (CHIPS Scores.xls) is only offered as a quick calculation tool and
for checking that you are getting the correct results, etc. When Colin has hard
coded CHIPS into Sailwave you will then have access to the whole range of
Sailwave interface facilities.

But you need not necessarily wait for this to be done since you can score
use CHIPS in Sailwave now by entering the CHIPS formula by hand using the custom
facility. To do this you need to use the
equation given in the “All about CHIPS” paper. This is reproduced again here:

5+95*(((s+1-p)/s)(1-0.9866822.7183^(-0.1622s))+0.814752.7183^(-0.1622*s))

Best regards,

Geoff

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfCraig Strand
Sent: 30 March 2007 06:23
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] rinderle B
High Point scoring

Thanks Geoff. I appreciate getting walked
through the edits needed to make the results more intelligible and
reasonable. I’ll take a look at CHIPS again but because I’ll be passing
off the scorekeeping duties, the facility of sailwave’s interface maintains a
significant attraction.

Best regards,

Craig

On 3/31/07, Geoff Burrell geoff.burrell@btinternet.com wrote:

Craig

Malcolm and Huw have already correctly identified the nature of
your problems.

The main problem is that you need to edit your Sailwave Scoring
System Codes for Rinderle B as follows:

DNF – choose the bottom selection “Score a fixed number
of points N” and enter a value of 5, and for

DNC – again make the bottom selection and set the value N to 0
(zero), and the same for OCS, DSQ.

That is all RTD and DSQ types of score are preset in Rinderle B at
values of 5 and zero respectively.

You may be interested to know that I have just added a new file
“All about CHIPS” into the SUG FILE area which you may be helpful
(although slightly mathematical in places). This not only tells you how
CHIPS evolved it makes some useful comments about the comparison of Rinderle B
with CHIPS and why the latter gives rather more sensible results.

By the way I have also updated the file (CHIPS scores.xls) that
contains a set of Excel spreadsheets that can be used to quickly calculate
CHIPS scores for any number of competing boats. The file also includes a
sophisticated set of macros that enables one to calculate what one has to do to
beat ones nearest competitor as one approaches the last race of a series. The
file can likewise be found in the SUG FILES area under the name “CHIPS
High Point Scoring Calculator”. For anyone interested in understanding
how CHIPS scoring works the Excel file is worth downloading to play with (but
note the need to accept the macros).

Colin has said that he will soon add CHIPS into the Sailwave
repertoire and this will be helpful to us all. (At that point if anyone
has any similar uncertainties with Scoring Codes I stand ready to advise, but
briefly for CHIPS – RTD/DNF are scored as number in race +1 and normally
DSQ/OCS/DNC are scored as zero).

Best of luck

Geoff

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Craig Strand
Sent: 28 March 2007
14:27
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [sailwave] rinderle B High Point scoring

Thank
you, Huw.

After further focus on the results, some things did become slightly clearer. My
confusion over Nett vs Total was resolved however the means by which the scores
are derived for other than a normal finish is still unclear.

I may resort to an alternate system as well after digging just a little deeper.

Thanks again,

Craig

On
3/28/07, Huw Pearce < huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk>
wrote:

Craig,

Sorry, can’t answer about Rinderle B.

I have ‘rolled my own’ High Points scoring system and there is also
the CHIPS high point scoring, which is similar to Rinderle B. Both come form the
basis that you get more points for doing well in a bigger fleet.

In regards of TOTAL & NETT points; TOTAL is before any discards
are taken into account and NETT is after taking out the discard points!

Kind regards,

Huw

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto: sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Craig S.
Sent: 27 March 2007 21:17
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] rinderle B
High Point scoring

We
have a fleet of over 25 Martin 242s here in Vancouver, CA. We’re

planning on using a High Point scoring system for our events and

overall season series.

I’ve scored our first Regatta using Rinderle B but I have a few

questions:

  1. 7 boats showed up on Saturday and raced 2 races. 1 boat did not

compete on Sunday. How are the scores for DNC computed? It appears

that the boat which didn’t show up scores 19.3 points and the boat

which raced but came last, scores 10.5 points.

  1. In the first race, all boats except 1 sailed the wrong course and

were eventually scored DNF after being protested. Sailwave gave a score

of “2.41 DNF” to the boats and 91.2 to the winner.

  1. In the second race, 2 boats were OCS. They were given scores of

44.06 while the boat that re-started but came last was given only 10.5

points instead of 36.3 (for 5th out of 7); although all finishing boats

were scored as if racing in a 5 boat fleet and would also need

adjustment if the last place is re-scored.

  1. I assume the “Total” column is the net after throw-out(s) have
    been

discarded and that the “Nett” column is the sum of all scores before

discards. The calculation for the boats that sailed all races seems to

compute but the resulting numbers for the boat that missed the 3 races

on day 2 are a mystery.

  1. I do not underestand why a DNF scores 2.41 points and an OCS, 44.06.

  2. It is clear I do not understand how Rinderle B actually deals with

much of the results!

Any help would be appreciated.

Craig Strand

--


This email has been verified as Virus free


Virus Protection and more available at [](http://www.plus)

[](http://www.plus)

[http://www.plus](http://www.plus).net

–

Craig S.

–

Craig S.

8

Thanks Geoff,
I pretty much agree with what has been written about CHIPS and am
certainly willing to give it a try.
The formulae are classic! (for all the high point systems) I've
already gotten predictable feedback from my Fleet. I can't wait to
explain how to quickly calculate who to cover on the last beat of the
last race :slight_smile:

I've re-scored our regatta and it looks like the results are a lot
friendlier for the boat that comes in last but at least showed up.

We're thinking of scoring DSQs with negative points (say -5) to
encourage boats to take penalties on the water. We have an aggressive
One Design Fleet and occasionally get into cycles of overloading the
Protest Committees.

Fair Sailing,
Craig

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Burrell" <geoff.burrell@...>
wrote:

Craig – Just to clarify. The CHIPS Calculator (CHIPS Scores.xls) is

only
<snip>