From the RYA "Whilst I appreciate most of you are uploading results we will still require your completed annual returns so that we can gauge whether your person club view is in line with the results being shown".
So that was a waste of time then! Except that I found the uploading process too painful for words, so haven't been doing it 
Mike
Lancing SC
ABSOLUTELY, what a totally cr*p website, if only they'd change it so you could go through to confirm ALL your races at once, which isn't difficult,it would make the whole process so much easier. Life's too short for all that clicking and waiting.
Tony
At 17:05 13/09/2010, Mike wrote:
From the RYA "Whilst I appreciate most of you are uploading results we will still require your completed annual returns so that we can gauge whether your person club view is in line with the results being shown".
So that was a waste of time then! Except that I found the uploading process too painful for words, so haven't been doing itMike
Lancing SC
I was suprised by the email as well. Whats the point in filling the online system in if they think you might put different numbers in the paper form? Simplest thing is to manually copy them from the website to the form and be done with it.
To be honest the sooner the RYA either manage Simon into doing a proper job or ditch him and get someone competent to do it, the better.
The system could be so good with a few tweaks but no one seems to either listen, care, or action anything. All of the main issues were highlighted well over a year ago and no changes.
I’m now halfway through inputing my clubs results for this year and will carry on but its getting painful.
Paul
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: tony@tonytucker.com
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:10:16 +0100
Subject: Re: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
ABSOLUTELY, what a totally cr*p website, if only
they’d change it so you could go through to
confirm ALL your races at once, which isn’t
difficult,it would make the whole process so much
easier. Life’s too short for all that clicking and waiting.
Tony
At 17:05 13/09/2010, Mike wrote:
From the RYA “Whilst I appreciate most of you
are uploading results we will still require
your completed annual returns so that we can
gauge whether your person club view is in line with the results being shown”.
So that was a waste of time then! Except that I
found the uploading process too painful for words, so haven’t been doing itMike
Lancing SC
May I suggest that while we can all grumble about the RYA pys online system on here, the best thing to do is send all of your issues with it to Leah Brooks at the RYA. I have repeatidly found Bas difficult to get in touch with and the issues I have raised with him havnt been improved. Leah seems to read her emails and respond promptly.
I think the only way we will get any improvement in the software is if we ask for it in large numbers.
Paul
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: sailtastic@hotmail.co.uk
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 19:15:04 +0000
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
I was suprised by the email as well. Whats the point in filling the online system in if they think you might put different numbers in the paper form? Simplest thing is to manually copy them from the website to the form and be done with it.
To be honest the sooner the RYA either manage Simon into doing a proper job or ditch him and get someone competent to do it, the better.
The system could be so good with a few tweaks but no one seems to either listen, care, or action anything. All of the main issues were highlighted well over a year ago and no changes.
I’m now halfway through inputing my clubs results for this year and will carry on but its getting painful.
Paul
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: tony@tonytucker.com
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:10:16 +0100
Subject: Re: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
ABSOLUTELY, what a totally cr*p website, if only
they’d change it so you could go through to
confirm ALL your races at once, which isn’t
difficult,it would make the whole process so much
easier. Life’s too short for all that clicking and waiting.
Tony
At 17:05 13/09/2010, Mike wrote:
From the RYA “Whilst I appreciate most of you
are uploading results we will still require
your completed annual returns so that we can
gauge whether your person club view is in line with the results being shown”.
So that was a waste of time then! Except that I
found the uploading process too painful for words, so haven’t been doing itMike
Lancing SC
I agree with your comments. I have tried to use the system several times this year without making much progress. I have raised a number of questions, without receiving answers from the RYA or Sailracer. One of the key points is the online system uses different logic than the YR2 method that we all understand, and will produce a different suggested number. Also it seems predominately aimed at dinghies, where it is probably easier to define things like configuration. I did try again a few weeks ago but the website was down. It needs a 'Colin' to sort it out.
Mike
Flushing Sailing Club
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Paul Craig <sailtastic@...> wrote:
May I suggest that while we can all grumble about the RYA pys online system on here, the best thing to do is send all of your issues with it to Leah Brooks at the RYA. I have repeatidly found Bas difficult to get in touch with and the issues I have raised with him havnt been improved. Leah seems to read her emails and respond promptly.
I think the only way we will get any improvement in the software is if we ask for it in large numbers.
Paul
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: sailtastic@...
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 19:15:04 +0000
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)I was suprised by the email as well. Whats the point in filling the online system in if they think you might put different numbers in the paper form? Simplest thing is to manually copy them from the website to the form and be done with it.
To be honest the sooner the RYA either manage Simon into doing a proper job or ditch him and get someone competent to do it, the better.
The system could be so good with a few tweaks but no one seems to either listen, care, or action anything. All of the main issues were highlighted well over a year ago and no changes.
I'm now halfway through inputing my clubs results for this year and will carry on but its getting painful.
Paul
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: tony@...
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:10:16 +0100
Subject: Re: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)ABSOLUTELY, what a totally cr*p website, if only
they'd change it so you could go through to
confirm ALL your races at once, which isn't
difficult,it would make the whole process so much
easier. Life's too short for all that clicking and waiting.Tony
At 17:05 13/09/2010, Mike wrote:
>
>
> From the RYA "Whilst I appreciate most of you
> are uploading results we will still require
> your completed annual returns so that we can
> gauge whether your person club view is in line with the results being shown".
>So that was a waste of time then! Except that I
>found the uploading process too painful for words, so haven't been doing it
>
>Mike
>Lancing SC
>
>
It’s that time of year again! I read on the PYS website that:
“The basis of this website is to primarily build up a usable Club Return to be considered in analysis for the following years Portsmouth Number list. However, in order to produce a usable return, clubs need to make sure that the numbers returned to the RYA accurately reflect your clubs boats performance on your club waters. By analysing the race results, the website will offer each club simply advice on how best to adjust numbers to ensure this is returned.” (my bold)
Isn’t there something of a Catch 22 here? That is, you need to be using ‘suitable’ numbers in your handicap racing for the annual return to reflect your view of how the boats at your club perform, but many sailors will only accept PY numbers for handicap racing! (The RYA state that “If your club actively uses the PYS analysis website you will not need to but may wish to complete a return as the RYA will take a snap shot of the data you have submitted to the website on the 30th of November and use this as your return data.”)
I suppose that it might be possible to re-run your club’s results with ‘more accurate’ local PY values before submitting them to the PYS site, but IMHO life’s too short, etc…
So what’s the experience of those in this group with the PYS system: is it worth the pain?
Cheers
Mike
Lancing SC
Urr Mike, if you are using PYS to make an electronice return you can put in any PN you like for any class in sailwave, it won't make any difference to the number returned to the RYA.
Put simply, when uploading, you pick a class to benchmark every other class in that race against. The PYS site then calculates a suggested handicap against this benchmark class.
The number the PYS suggests is the number the RYA are interested in and not the number used during the race (probably their published number anyway). These suggested numbers are what will be snapshotted on 30th Nov.
It needs to be understood that the PYS is a completely different way of making a return. The paper returns rely on you to let the RYA know what number you "think" would suit each class best. But they have no idea whether you've claculated that accurately through the season using YR2 or any other method or just stated the published numbers are best for a simple life. The PYS allows the RYA to use actual individual race timings, and PN's calculated from these, without you having to do anything too technical.
It is a useful tool at club level as the website will combine the suggested handicaps from each race and give youa print out for your club based on all results entered. So the more you put in the more you get out! Agreed, it can seem infuriating at times, but please be aware the whole site is currently undergoing some upgrades so should be a whole host more user friendly.
If you dont use the system currently and need any help/pointers please let me know and i'll be happy to help (please note I don't work for the RYA, although am on the Portsmouth Yardstick Advisory Group who set the yearly PN's, so have no other interest other than trying to get as many returns in as possible so we all benefit from better numbers).
Chris
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mike.croker@...> wrote:
It's that time of year again! I read on the PYS website
<http://www.pys.org.uk/new_default.asp> that: "The basis of this website
is to primarily build up a usable Club Return to be considered in
analysis for the following years Portsmouth Number list. However, in
order to produce a usable return, clubs need to make sure that the
numbers returned to the RYA accurately reflect your clubs boats
performance on your club waters. By analysing the race results, the
website will offer each club simply advice on how best to adjust numbers
to ensure this is returned." (my bold)Isn't there something of a Catch
22 here? That is, you need to be using 'suitable' numbers in your
handicap racing for the annual return to reflect your view of how the
boats at your club perform, but many sailors will only accept PY numbers
for handicap racing! (The RYA state that
<http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/Pages/portsmouthyardstick.aspx> "If your
club actively uses the PYS analysis website you will not need to but may
wish to complete a return as the RYA will take a snap shot of the data
you have submitted to the website on the 30th of November and use this
as your return data.")I suppose that it might be possible to re-run your
club's results with 'more accurate' local PY values before submitting
them to the PYS site, but IMHO life's too short, etc..So what's the
experience of those in this group with the PYS system: is it worth the
pain?CheersMikeLancing SC
My experience of the PYS website is that it does not work, is capricious, never seems to do the same thing twice and is in all respects unusable. Definitely not worth the pain. Am I doing something wrong? - probably, but this site should be usable by ordinary mortals with normal domestic computer skills. The main thing that it does illustrate very well, though, is that in a fleet of, say, a dozen boats sailing 80 races a year the number of ‘typical’ races you get is about five. In all the others someone will have got a bad start, someone will have capsized, the wind or tide will have changed dramatically during the race dumping the slower boats and so on. If your benchmark boat is a well sailed N18 which wins by 5 minutes all the ‘ordinary’ boats get recommended handicaps of over 1100. OK, so the benchmark should have been one of the ‘ordinary boats’ but if you know that they are all poor performers, that doesn’t work either. I guess we need a bigger fleet with fewer good helms sailing boats with known bandit handicaps (N18, Phantom, MPS). Not very helpful, I’m afraid, but the ‘feeling in the water’ method of adjusting handicaps is at least as good.
Rgds
George Morris
----- Original Message -----
From:
Mike .
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 1:22 PM
Subject: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
It’s that time of year again! I read on the PYS website that:
"The basis of this website is to primarily build up a usable Club Return to be considered in analysis for the following years Portsmouth Number list. However, in order to produce a usable return, *** clubs need to make sure that the numbers returned to the RYA accurately reflect your clubs boats performance on your club waters*** . By analysing the race results, the website will offer each club simply advice on how best to adjust numbers to ensure this is returned." (my bold)
Isn’t there something of a Catch 22 here? That is, you need to be using ‘suitable’ numbers in your handicap racing for the annual return to reflect your view of how the boats at your club perform, but many sailors will only accept PY numbers for handicap racing! (The RYA state that “If your club actively uses the PYS analysis website you will not need to but may wish to complete a return as the RYA will take a snap shot of the data you have submitted to the website on the 30th of November and use this as your return data.”)
I suppose that it might be possible to re-run your club’s results with ‘more accurate’ local PY values before submitting them to the PYS site, but IMHO life’s too short, etc…
So what’s the experience of those in this group with the PYS system: is it worth the pain?
Cheers
Mike
Lancing SC
I did only one race PY with 5 boats badly sailed so I am not submitting anything.
Mike Butterfield
Vice Commodore Royal Dee Yacht Club
From: chris
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 2:25 PM
Subject: [sailwave] Re: RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
Urr Mike, if you are using PYS to make an electronice return you can put in any PN you like for any class in sailwave, it won’t make any difference to the number returned to the RYA.
Put simply, when uploading, you pick a class to benchmark every other class in that race against. The PYS site then calculates a suggested handicap against this benchmark class.
The number the PYS suggests is the number the RYA are interested in and not the number used during the race (probably their published number anyway). These suggested numbers are what will be snapshotted on 30th Nov.
It needs to be understood that the PYS is a completely different way of making a return. The paper returns rely on you to let the RYA know what number you “think” would suit each class best. But they have no idea whether you’ve claculated that accurately through the season using YR2 or any other method or just stated the published numbers are best for a simple life. The PYS allows the RYA to use actual individual race timings, and PN’s calculated from these, without you having to do anything too technical.
It is a useful tool at club level as the website will combine the suggested handicaps from each race and give youa print out for your club based on all results entered. So the more you put in the more you get out! Agreed, it can seem infuriating at times, but please be aware the whole site is currently undergoing some upgrades so should be a whole host more user friendly.
If you dont use the system currently and need any help/pointers please let me know and i’ll be happy to help (please note I don’t work for the RYA, although am on the Portsmouth Yardstick Advisory Group who set the yearly PN’s, so have no other interest other than trying to get as many returns in as possible so we all benefit from better numbers).
Chris
— In mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com, “Mike” <mike.croker@…> wrote:
It’s that time of year again! I read on the PYS website
<http://www.pys.org.uk/new_default.asp> that: “The basis of this website
is to primarily build up a usable Club Return to be considered in
analysis for the following years Portsmouth Number list. However, in
order to produce a usable return, clubs need to make sure that the
numbers returned to the RYA accurately reflect your clubs boats
performance on your club waters. By analysing the race results, the
website will offer each club simply advice on how best to adjust numbers
to ensure this is returned.” (my bold)Isn’t there something of a Catch
22 here? That is, you need to be using ‘suitable’ numbers in your
handicap racing for the annual return to reflect your view of how the
boats at your club perform, but many sailors will only accept PY numbers
for handicap racing! (The RYA state that
<http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/Pages/portsmouthyardstick.aspx> “If your
club actively uses the PYS analysis website you will not need to but may
wish to complete a return as the RYA will take a snap shot of the data
you have submitted to the website on the 30th of November and use this
as your return data.”)I suppose that it might be possible to re-run your
club’s results with ‘more accurate’ local PY values before submitting
them to the PYS site, but IMHO life’s too short, etc…So what’s the
experience of those in this group with the PYS system: is it worth the
pain?CheersMikeLancing SC
George,
If you’d asked me my opinions a year ago I would have agreed. However following recent improvements the PYS site is now significantly easier to use and I would recommend and encourage as many clubs to use it.
Hopefully the last of the big quirks will be removed in the ongoing maintenance that Chris referred to, and finally the system will be easily accessible to all mere mortals.
The site enables the removal of results that are way out of line with the bulk of the fleet, so these outliers will not affect the corrections, and selection of multiple benchmarks is available so that if your N18 is known to be well sailed then leave him as a benchmark but also consider one of your ‘ordinary boats’ as a benchmark. The system will then ensure that everything doesn’t get too skewed too much by the one ‘well sailed boat’.
At the end of the day some boats may perform better in your prevalent conditions and this will get absorbed into the fleet average nationally for the official PY numbers. If however you want your club racing to be closer, with more opportunities for the ‘ordinary boats’ to win or be nearer to top places then use of the PYS suggested numbers that the system spits out for your club should allow for closer racing, but use of these is down to the club.
The other thing to know is that the PYS system is not annual. That is, it continuously adjusts the numbers based on all the historical races entered, so the more races you enter the better the data. I have nearly 3 years of results for my club now in PYS and the adjustments are surprisingly small with the exception of classes that someone bought into, sailed 5 times then bought something else. In these cases the output is of little use and at a national level will be lost in the noise, but if you get several years worth of data in and under your belt I can assure you that the suggestions will be useful.
Good luck
Paul
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: gmorris@toucansurf.com
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 19:16:53 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
My experience of the PYS website is that it does not work, is capricious, never seems to do the same thing twice and is in all respects unusable. Definitely not worth the pain. Am I doing something wrong? - probably, but this site should be usable by ordinary mortals with normal domestic computer skills. The main thing that it does illustrate very well, though, is that in a fleet of, say, a dozen boats sailing 80 races a year the number of ‘typical’ races you get is about five. In all the others someone will have got a bad start, someone will have capsized, the wind or tide will have changed dramatically during the race dumping the slower boats and so on. If your benchmark boat is a well sailed N18 which wins by 5 minutes all the ‘ordinary’ boats get recommended handicaps of over 1100. OK, so the benchmark should have been one of the ‘ordinary boats’ but if you know that they are all poor performers, that doesn’t work either. I guess we need a bigger fleet with fewer good helms sailing boats with known bandit handicaps (N18, Phantom, MPS). Not very helpful, I’m afraid, but the ‘feeling in the water’ method of adjusting handicaps is at least as good.
Rgds
George Morris
----- Original Message -----
From:
Mike .
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 1:22 PM
Subject: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
It’s that time of year again! I read on the PYS website that:
"The basis of this website is to primarily build up a usable Club Return to be considered in analysis for the following years Portsmouth Number list. However, in order to produce a usable return, *** clubs need to make sure that the numbers returned to the RYA accurately reflect your clubs boats performance on your club waters*** . By analysing the race results, the website will offer each club simply advice on how best to adjust numbers to ensure this is returned." (my bold)
Isn’t there something of a Catch 22 here? That is, you need to be using ‘suitable’ numbers in your handicap racing for the annual return to reflect your view of how the boats at your club perform, but many sailors will only accept PY numbers for handicap racing! (The RYA state that “If your club actively uses the PYS analysis website you will not need to but may wish to complete a return as the RYA will take a snap shot of the data you have submitted to the website on the 30th of November and use this as your return data.”)
I suppose that it might be possible to re-run your club’s results with ‘more accurate’ local PY values before submitting them to the PYS site, but IMHO life’s too short, etc…
So what’s the experience of those in this group with the PYS system: is it worth the pain?
Cheers
Mike
Lancing SC
Thanks Paul, couldn't have summed it up any better really.
I have no computer skills as such, can open an email and thats about it. However I thought there was some benefit to the PYS a when i saw it a couple of years ago. I think Bas at the RYA got so fed up with me asking him so many questions he asked me to be a guinea pig. I now help out by trying new PYS stuff with real world results, and numptiness before it gets released. I'm not a computer geek by any stretch of the imagination.
I won't pretend that the site doesnt have quirks, but as Paul said, they are a lot less than a year or so ago, and people are working hard to make it A LOT easier to use - watch this space!
I have always offered to help anyone having trouble with PYS, and can point out some of the quirks to smooth peoples introduction and save them a lot of time and effort that I went through.
To say the site just does not work is not really fair. There are a lot of clubs now using it and getting out some useful data. Perhaps it is difficult to understand or work out why it does some things in certain ways, but it is entirely possible to end up with some useful information from it.
If you have any questions about the PYS process, or wish to get involved then a quick question on here will be delivered to the inboxes of many PYS users, including myself.
Alternatively, you could always drop the RYA technical dept a line, but they are fairly busy with all things returns at the moment.
George/Mike, did you file paper returns if you couldnt make the PYS work for you?
Chris
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Paul Craig <sailtastic@...> wrote:
George,
If you'd asked me my opinions a year ago I would have agreed. However following recent improvements the PYS site is now significantly easier to use and I would recommend and encourage as many clubs to use it.
Hopefully the last of the big quirks will be removed in the ongoing maintenance that Chris referred to, and finally the system will be easily accessible to all mere mortals.
The site enables the removal of results that are way out of line with the bulk of the fleet, so these outliers will not affect the corrections, and selection of multiple benchmarks is available so that if your N18 is known to be well sailed then leave him as a benchmark but also consider one of your 'ordinary boats' as a benchmark. The system will then ensure that everything doesn't get too skewed too much by the one 'well sailed boat'.
At the end of the day some boats may perform better in your prevalent conditions and this will get absorbed into the fleet average nationally for the official PY numbers. If however you want your club racing to be closer, with more opportunities for the 'ordinary boats' to win or be nearer to top places then use of the PYS suggested numbers that the system spits out for your club should allow for closer racing, but use of these is down to the club.
The other thing to know is that the PYS system is not annual. That is, it continuously adjusts the numbers based on all the historical races entered, so the more races you enter the better the data. I have nearly 3 years of results for my club now in PYS and the adjustments are surprisingly small with the exception of classes that someone bought into, sailed 5 times then bought something else. In these cases the output is of little use and at a national level will be lost in the noise, but if you get several years worth of data in and under your belt I can assure you that the suggestions will be useful.
Good luck
PaulTo: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: gmorris@...
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 19:16:53 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)My experience of the PYS website is that it does
not work, is capricious, never seems to do the same thing twice and is in all
respects unusable. Definitely not worth the pain. Am I doing something wrong?
- probably, but this site should be usable by ordinary mortals with normal
domestic computer skills. The main thing that it does illustrate very well,
though, is that in a fleet of, say, a dozen boats sailing 80 races a year the
number of 'typical' races you get is about five. In all the others someone will
have got a bad start, someone will have capsized, the wind or tide will have
changed dramatically during the race dumping the slower boats and so
on. If your benchmark boat is a well sailed N18 which wins by 5
minutes all the 'ordinary' boats get recommended handicaps of over 1100. OK, so
the benchmark should have been one of the 'ordinary boats' but if you know that
they are all poor performers, that doesn't work either. I guess we need a bigger
fleet with fewer good helms sailing boats with known bandit handicaps (N18,
Phantom, MPS). Not very helpful, I'm afraid, but the 'feeling in the water'
method of adjusting handicaps is at least as good.Rgds
George Morris
----- Original Message -----
From:
Mike .
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 1:22
PM
Subject: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return
(with apologies to non-UK members)
It's that time of year again! I read on the PYS website that:
"The basis of this website is to primarily build up a usable Club
Return to be considered in analysis for the following years Portsmouth
Number list. However, in order to produce a usable return, clubs need
to make sure that the numbers returned to the RYA accurately reflect your
clubs boats performance on your club waters. By analysing the race
results, the website will offer each club simply advice on how best to
adjust numbers to ensure this is returned." (my bold)
Isn't there something of a Catch 22 here? That is, you need to be
using 'suitable' numbers in your handicap racing for the annual return to
reflect your view of how the boats at your club perform, but many sailors will
only accept PY numbers for handicap racing! (The RYA state
that "If your club actively uses the PYS analysis website you will
not need to but may wish to complete a return as the RYA will take a snap shot
of the data you have submitted to the website on the 30th of November and use
this as your return data.")
I suppose that it might be possible to re-run your club's results with
'more accurate' local PY values before submitting them to the PYS site, but
IMHO life's too short, etc..
So what's the experience of those in this group with the PYS system: is
it worth the pain?
Cheers
Mike
Lancing SC
Chris,
Yes, I did overstate my case a bit and I haven’t looked at it recently but until my boat is listed ( a Weta) plus our club’s most numerous class (N18) there is little incentive. But we do file paper returns and always have,
rgds
George
----- Original Message -----
From:
chris
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:42 PM
Subject: [sailwave] Re: RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
Thanks Paul, couldn’t have summed it up any better really.
I have no computer skills as such, can open an email and thats about it. However I thought there was some benefit to the PYS a when i saw it a couple of years ago. I think Bas at the RYA got so fed up with me asking him so many questions he asked me to be a guinea pig. I now help out by trying new PYS stuff with real world results, and numptiness before it gets released. I’m not a computer geek by any stretch of the imagination.
I won’t pretend that the site doesnt have quirks, but as Paul said, they are a lot less than a year or so ago, and people are working hard to make it A LOT easier to use - watch this space!
I have always offered to help anyone having trouble with PYS, and can point out some of the quirks to smooth peoples introduction and save them a lot of time and effort that I went through.
To say the site just does not work is not really fair. There are a lot of clubs now using it and getting out some useful data. Perhaps it is difficult to understand or work out why it does some things in certain ways, but it is entirely possible to end up with some useful information from it.
If you have any questions about the PYS process, or wish to get involved then a quick question on here will be delivered to the inboxes of many PYS users, including myself.
Alternatively, you could always drop the RYA technical dept a line, but they are fairly busy with all things returns at the moment.
George/Mike, did you file paper returns if you couldnt make the PYS work for you?
Chris
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com , Paul Craig <sailtastic@…> wrote:
George,
If you’d asked me my opinions a year ago I would have agreed. However following recent improvements the PYS site is now significantly easier to use and I would recommend and encourage as many clubs to use it.
Hopefully the last of the big quirks will be removed in the ongoing maintenance that Chris referred to, and finally the system will be easily accessible to all mere mortals.
The site enables the removal of results that are way out of line with the bulk of the fleet, so these outliers will not affect the corrections, and selection of multiple benchmarks is available so that if your N18 is known to be well sailed then leave him as a benchmark but also consider one of your ‘ordinary boats’ as a benchmark. The system will then ensure that everything doesn’t get too skewed too much by the one ‘well sailed boat’.
At the end of the day some boats may perform better in your prevalent conditions and this will get absorbed into the fleet average nationally for the official PY numbers. If however you want your club racing to be closer, with more opportunities for the ‘ordinary boats’ to win or be nearer to top places then use of the PYS suggested numbers that the system spits out for your club should allow for closer racing, but use of these is down to the club.
The other thing to know is that the PYS system is not annual. That is, it continuously adjusts the numbers based on all the historical races entered, so the more races you enter the better the data. I have nearly 3 years of results for my club now in PYS and the adjustments are surprisingly small with the exception of classes that someone bought into, sailed 5 times then bought something else. In these cases the output is of little use and at a national level will be lost in the noise, but if you get several years worth of data in and under your belt I can assure you that the suggestions will be useful.
Good luck
PaulTo: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: gmorris@…
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 19:16:53 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)My experience of the PYS website is that it does
not work, is capricious, never seems to do the same thing twice and is in all
respects unusable. Definitely not worth the pain. Am I doing something wrong?
- probably, but this site should be usable by ordinary mortals with normal
domestic computer skills. The main thing that it does illustrate very well,
though, is that in a fleet of, say, a dozen boats sailing 80 races a year the
number of ‘typical’ races you get is about five. In all the others someone will
have got a bad start, someone will have capsized, the wind or tide will have
changed dramatically during the race dumping the slower boats and so
on. If your benchmark boat is a well sailed N18 which wins by 5
minutes all the ‘ordinary’ boats get recommended handicaps of over 1100. OK, so
the benchmark should have been one of the ‘ordinary boats’ but if you know that
they are all poor performers, that doesn’t work either. I guess we need a bigger
fleet with fewer good helms sailing boats with known bandit handicaps (N18,
Phantom, MPS). Not very helpful, I’m afraid, but the ‘feeling in the water’
method of adjusting handicaps is at least as good.Rgds
George Morris
----- Original Message -----
From:
Mike .
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.comSent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 1:22
PM
Subject: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return
(with apologies to non-UK members)It’s that time of year again! I read on the PYS website that:
“The basis of this website is to primarily build up a usable Club
Return to be considered in analysis for the following years Portsmouth
Number list. However, in order to produce a usable return, clubs need
to make sure that the numbers returned to the RYA accurately reflect your
clubs boats performance on your club waters. By analysing the race
results, the website will offer each club simply advice on how best to
adjust numbers to ensure this is returned.” (my bold)
Isn’t there something of a Catch 22 here? That is, you need to be
using ‘suitable’ numbers in your handicap racing for the annual return to
reflect your view of how the boats at your club perform, but many sailors will
only accept PY numbers for handicap racing! (The RYA state
that “If your club actively uses the PYS analysis website you will
not need to but may wish to complete a return as the RYA will take a snap shot
of the data you have submitted to the website on the 30th of November and use
this as your return data.”)
I suppose that it might be possible to re-run your club’s results with
‘more accurate’ local PY values before submitting them to the PYS site, but
IMHO life’s too short, etc…
So what’s the experience of those in this group with the PYS system: is
it worth the pain?
CheersMike
Lancing SC
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, “chris” <cgandy@…> wrote:
George/Mike, did you file paper returns if you couldnt make the PYS work for you?
Yep: e-mailed an .xls to them yesterday. I was pleased to read that if you use PYS you are no longer expected to complete an annual PY return, which might offer some incentive!
Mike
Lancing SC
PS: One question: we use 3 different handicap systems (PY, PY with Lancing Correction Factor and Personal - in terms of suitability for our sailing conditions: poor, better but some obvious anomalies, fairly accurate) for different race series during the season. What would happen if all these results were stuffed into PYS?
Mike,
Assuming you have one race but score with different PN’s in sailwave just upload the original file. It would be best if you didnt use the personal PN’s as there is a screen which summarises the proposed PN against used PN and using personal you might have one class with different PN’s.
If you have a “clean” file with RYA PY’s i’d sugest using that but lancing adjusted handicaps would be fine too.
Glad you guys have made returns, the more we get the better for all of us.
If you need any advice or help using PYS do get in touch. Do you have an active login for the site?
Chris
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, “chris” <cgandy@…> wrote:
George/Mike, did you file paper returns if you couldnt make the PYS work for you?
Yep: e-mailed an .xls to them yesterday. I was pleased to read that if you use PYS you are no longer expected to complete an annual PY return, which might offer some incentive!
Mike
Lancing SC
PS: One question: we use 3 different handicap systems (PY, PY with Lancing Correction Factor and Personal - in terms of suitability for our sailing conditions: poor, better but some obvious anomalies, fairly accurate) for different race series during the season. What would happen if all these results were stuffed into PYS?
On 30 Nov 2011, at 10:53, Chris Gandy chrisgandy@me.com wrote:
On 30 Nov 2011, at 10:13, Mike mike.croker@phonecoop.coop wrote:
George,
Thanks for filing your returns. Royal Findhorn by any chance? This is the only club to return anything for a Weta and 2010’s return says 1 boat sailed 21 races. The RYA wont publish a number for 1 boat as it would be a personal handicap. We’d have no way of knowing how much CSF came into effect. If you get lots of returns the idea is this would be evened out over the course of a season on different waters. N18 fairs marginally better but only 2 clubs made returns for this class.
It isnt the RYA’s fault, the best way to help your class get a number is to encourage all clubs where they are sailed to make a return. That way you may eventually get enough. I understand you have little incentive but if everyone thought it wasnt worth returning there would be many more classes without numbers (some more surprising than others) so thanks again for taking the time to make a return.
Chris
Chris,
Yes, I did overstate my case a bit and I haven’t looked at it recently but until my boat is listed ( a Weta) plus our club’s most numerous class (N18) there is little incentive. But we do file paper returns and always have,
rgds
George
From:
chris
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:42 PM
Subject: [sailwave] Re: RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
Thanks Paul, couldn’t have summed it up any better really.
I have no computer skills as such, can open an email and thats about it. However I thought there was some benefit to the PYS a when i saw it a couple of years ago. I think Bas at the RYA got so fed up with me asking him so many questions he asked me to be a guinea pig. I now help out by trying new PYS stuff with real world results, and numptiness before it gets released. I’m not a computer geek by any stretch of the imagination.
I won’t pretend that the site doesnt have quirks, but as Paul said, they are a lot less than a year or so ago, and people are working hard to make it A LOT easier to use - watch this space!
I have always offered to help anyone having trouble with PYS, and can point out some of the quirks to smooth peoples introduction and save them a lot of time and effort that I went through.
To say the site just does not work is not really fair. There are a lot of clubs now using it and getting out some useful data. Perhaps it is difficult to understand or work out why it does some things in certain ways, but it is entirely possible to end up with some useful information from it.
If you have any questions about the PYS process, or wish to get involved then a quick question on here will be delivered to the inboxes of many PYS users, including myself.
Alternatively, you could always drop the RYA technical dept a line, but they are fairly busy with all things returns at the moment.
George/Mike, did you file paper returns if you couldnt make the PYS work for you?
Chris
George,
If you’d asked me my opinions a year ago I would have agreed. However following recent improvements the PYS site is now significantly easier to use and I would recommend and encourage as many clubs to use it.
Hopefully the last of the big quirks will be removed in the ongoing maintenance that Chris referred to, and finally the system will be easily accessible to all mere mortals.
The site enables the removal of results that are way out of line with the bulk of the fleet, so these outliers will not affect the corrections, and selection of multiple benchmarks is available so that if your N18 is known to be well sailed then leave him as a benchmark but also consider one of your ‘ordinary boats’ as a benchmark. The system will then ensure that everything doesn’t get too skewed too much by the one ‘well sailed boat’.
At the end of the day some boats may perform better in your prevalent conditions and this will get absorbed into the fleet average nationally for the official PY numbers. If however you want your club racing to be closer, with more opportunities for the ‘ordinary boats’ to win or be nearer to top places then use of the PYS suggested numbers that the system spits out for your club should allow for closer racing, but use of these is down to the club.
The other thing to know is that the PYS system is not annual. That is, it continuously adjusts the numbers based on all the historical races entered, so the more races you enter the better the data. I have nearly 3 years of results for my club now in PYS and the adjustments are surprisingly small with the exception of classes that someone bought into, sailed 5 times then bought something else. In these cases the output is of little use and at a national level will be lost in the noise, but if you get several years worth of data in and under your belt I can assure you that the suggestions will be useful.
Good luck
PaulTo: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: gmorris@…
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 19:16:53 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)My experience of the PYS website is that it does
not work, is capricious, never seems to do the same thing twice and is in all
respects unusable. Definitely not worth the pain. Am I doing something wrong?
- probably, but this site should be usable by ordinary mortals with normal
domestic computer skills. The main thing that it does illustrate very well,
though, is that in a fleet of, say, a dozen boats sailing 80 races a year the
number of ‘typical’ races you get is about five. In all the others someone will
have got a bad start, someone will have capsized, the wind or tide will have
changed dramatically during the race dumping the slower boats and so
on. If your benchmark boat is a well sailed N18 which wins by 5
minutes all the ‘ordinary’ boats get recommended handicaps of over 1100. OK, so
the benchmark should have been one of the ‘ordinary boats’ but if you know that
they are all poor performers, that doesn’t work either. I guess we need a bigger
fleet with fewer good helms sailing boats with known bandit handicaps (N18,
Phantom, MPS). Not very helpful, I’m afraid, but the ‘feeling in the water’
method of adjusting handicaps is at least as good.Rgds
George Morris
From:
Mike .
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.comSent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 1:22
PM
Subject: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return
(with apologies to non-UK members)It’s that time of year again! I read on the PYS website that:
“The basis of this website is to primarily build up a usable Club
Return to be considered in analysis for the following years Portsmouth
Number list. However, in order to produce a usable return, clubs need
to make sure that the numbers returned to the RYA accurately reflect your
clubs boats performance on your club waters. By analysing the race
results, the website will offer each club simply advice on how best to
adjust numbers to ensure this is returned.” (my bold)
Isn’t there something of a Catch 22 here? That is, you need to be
using ‘suitable’ numbers in your handicap racing for the annual return to
reflect your view of how the boats at your club perform, but many sailors will
only accept PY numbers for handicap racing! (The RYA state
that “If your club actively uses the PYS analysis website you will
not need to but may wish to complete a return as the RYA will take a snap shot
of the data you have submitted to the website on the 30th of November and use
this as your return data.”)
I suppose that it might be possible to re-run your club’s results with
‘more accurate’ local PY values before submitting them to the PYS site, but
IMHO life’s too short, etc…
So what’s the experience of those in this group with the PYS system: is
it worth the pain?
CheersMike
Lancing SC
On 30 Nov 2011, at 11:07, Chris Gandy chrisgandy@me.com wrote:
On 30 Nov 2011, at 07:15, George Morris gmorris@toucansurf.com wrote:
----- Original Message -----
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com , Paul Craig <sailtastic@…> wrote:----- Original Message -----
George, for your information the data I entered for my club for 2011 contains results for a WETA which sails at our club. So the PYS system will start catching them.
Paul
To: gmorris@toucansurf.com; sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: chrisgandy@me.com
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 11:11:25 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
On 30 Nov 2011, at 11:07, Chris Gandy chrisgandy@me.com wrote:
George,
Thanks for filing your returns. Royal Findhorn by any chance? This is the only club to return anything for a Weta and 2010’s return says 1 boat sailed 21 races. The RYA wont publish a number for 1 boat as it would be a personal handicap. We’d have no way of knowing how much CSF came into effect. If you get lots of returns the idea is this would be evened out over the course of a season on different waters. N18 fairs marginally better but only 2 clubs made returns for this class.
It isnt the RYA’s fault, the best way to help your class get a number is to encourage all clubs where they are sailed to make a return. That way you may eventually get enough. I understand you have little incentive but if everyone thought it wasnt worth returning there would be many more classes without numbers (some more surprising than others) so thanks again for taking the time to make a return.
Chris
On 30 Nov 2011, at 07:15, George Morris gmorris@toucansurf.com wrote:
Chris,
Yes, I did overstate my case a bit and I haven’t looked at it recently but until my boat is listed ( a Weta) plus our club’s most numerous class (N18) there is little incentive. But we do file paper returns and always have,
rgds
George
----- Original Message -----
From:
chris
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:42 PM
Subject: [sailwave] Re: RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
Thanks Paul, couldn’t have summed it up any better really.
I have no computer skills as such, can open an email and thats about it. However I thought there was some benefit to the PYS a when i saw it a couple of years ago. I think Bas at the RYA got so fed up with me asking him so many questions he asked me to be a guinea pig. I now help out by trying new PYS stuff with real world results, and numptiness before it gets released. I’m not a computer geek by any stretch of the imagination.
I won’t pretend that the site doesnt have quirks, but as Paul said, they are a lot less than a year or so ago, and people are working hard to make it A LOT easier to use - watch this space!
I have always offered to help anyone having trouble with PYS, and can point out some of the quirks to smooth peoples introduction and save them a lot of time and effort that I went through.
To say the site just does not work is not really fair. There are a lot of clubs now using it and getting out some useful data. Perhaps it is difficult to understand or work out why it does some things in certain ways, but it is entirely possible to end up with some useful information from it.
If you have any questions about the PYS process, or wish to get involved then a quick question on here will be delivered to the inboxes of many PYS users, including myself.
Alternatively, you could always drop the RYA technical dept a line, but they are fairly busy with all things returns at the moment.
George/Mike, did you file paper returns if you couldnt make the PYS work for you?
Chris
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com , Paul Craig <sailtastic@…> wrote:
George,
If you’d asked me my opinions a year ago I would have agreed. However following recent improvements the PYS site is now significantly easier to use and I would recommend and encourage as many clubs to use it.
Hopefully the last of the big quirks will be removed in the ongoing maintenance that Chris referred to, and finally the system will be easily accessible to all mere mortals.
The site enables the removal of results that are way out of line with the bulk of the fleet, so these outliers will not affect the corrections, and selection of multiple benchmarks is available so that if your N18 is known to be well sailed then leave him as a benchmark but also consider one of your ‘ordinary boats’ as a benchmark. The system will then ensure that everything doesn’t get too skewed too much by the one ‘well sailed boat’.
At the end of the day some boats may perform better in your prevalent conditions and this will get absorbed into the fleet average nationally for the official PY numbers. If however you want your club racing to be closer, with more opportunities for the ‘ordinary boats’ to win or be nearer to top places then use of the PYS suggested numbers that the system spits out for your club should allow for closer racing, but use of these is down to the club.
The other thing to know is that the PYS system is not annual. That is, it continuously adjusts the numbers based on all the historical races entered, so the more races you enter the better the data. I have nearly 3 years of results for my club now in PYS and the adjustments are surprisingly small with the exception of classes that someone bought into, sailed 5 times then bought something else. In these cases the output is of little use and at a national level will be lost in the noise, but if you get several years worth of data in and under your belt I can assure you that the suggestions will be useful.
Good luck
PaulTo: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: gmorris@…
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 19:16:53 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)My experience of the PYS website is that it does
not work, is capricious, never seems to do the same thing twice and is in all
respects unusable. Definitely not worth the pain. Am I doing something wrong?
- probably, but this site should be usable by ordinary mortals with normal
domestic computer skills. The main thing that it does illustrate very well,
though, is that in a fleet of, say, a dozen boats sailing 80 races a year the
number of ‘typical’ races you get is about five. In all the others someone will
have got a bad start, someone will have capsized, the wind or tide will have
changed dramatically during the race dumping the slower boats and so
on. If your benchmark boat is a well sailed N18 which wins by 5
minutes all the ‘ordinary’ boats get recommended handicaps of over 1100. OK, so
the benchmark should have been one of the ‘ordinary boats’ but if you know that
they are all poor performers, that doesn’t work either. I guess we need a bigger
fleet with fewer good helms sailing boats with known bandit handicaps (N18,
Phantom, MPS). Not very helpful, I’m afraid, but the ‘feeling in the water’
method of adjusting handicaps is at least as good.Rgds
George Morris
----- Original Message -----
From:
Mike .
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.comSent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 1:22
PM
Subject: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return
(with apologies to non-UK members)It’s that time of year again! I read on the PYS website that:
“The basis of this website is to primarily build up a usable Club
Return to be considered in analysis for the following years Portsmouth
Number list. However, in order to produce a usable return, clubs need
to make sure that the numbers returned to the RYA accurately reflect your
clubs boats performance on your club waters. By analysing the race
results, the website will offer each club simply advice on how best to
adjust numbers to ensure this is returned.” (my bold)
Isn’t there something of a Catch 22 here? That is, you need to be
using ‘suitable’ numbers in your handicap racing for the annual return to
reflect your view of how the boats at your club perform, but many sailors will
only accept PY numbers for handicap racing! (The RYA state
that “If your club actively uses the PYS analysis website you will
not need to but may wish to complete a return as the RYA will take a snap shot
of the data you have submitted to the website on the 30th of November and use
this as your return data.”)
I suppose that it might be possible to re-run your club’s results with
‘more accurate’ local PY values before submitting them to the PYS site, but
IMHO life’s too short, etc…
So what’s the experience of those in this group with the PYS system: is
it worth the pain?
CheersMike
Lancing SC
Which club was that then? - Plymouth Corinthian, Grafham or West Wittering?
Rgds
George
----- Original Message -----
From:
Paul Craig
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
George, for your information the data I entered for my club for 2011 contains results for a WETA which sails at our club. So the PYS system will start catching them.
Paul
To: gmorris@toucansurf.com; sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: chrisgandy@me.com
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 11:11:25 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)On 30 Nov 2011, at 11:07, Chris Gandy chrisgandy@me.com wrote:
George,
Thanks for filing your returns. Royal Findhorn by any chance? This is the only club to return anything for a Weta and 2010's return says 1 boat sailed 21 races. The RYA wont publish a number for 1 boat as it would be a personal handicap. We'd have no way of knowing how much CSF came into effect. If you get lots of returns the idea is this would be evened out over the course of a season on different waters. N18 fairs marginally better but only 2 clubs made returns for this class.
It isnt the RYA's fault, the best way to help your class get a number is to encourage all clubs where they are sailed to make a return. That way you may eventually get enough. I understand you have little incentive but if everyone thought it wasnt worth returning there would be many more classes without numbers (some more surprising than others) so thanks again for taking the time to make a return.
Chris
On 30 Nov 2011, at 07:15, George Morris <gmorris@toucansurf.com > wrote:
Chris,
Yes, I did overstate my case a bit and I haven't looked at it recently but until my boat is listed ( a Weta) plus our club's most numerous class (N18) there is little incentive. But we do file paper returns and always have,
rgds
George
----- Original Message -----
From: chris
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:42 PM
Subject: [sailwave] Re: RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
Thanks Paul, couldn't have summed it up any better really. I have no computer skills as such, can open an email and thats about it. However I thought there was some benefit to the PYS a when i saw it a couple of years ago. I think Bas at the RYA got so fed up with me asking him so many questions he asked me to be a guinea pig. I now help out by trying new PYS stuff with real world results, and numptiness before it gets released. I'm not a computer geek by any stretch of the imagination. I won't pretend that the site doesnt have quirks, but as Paul said, they are a lot less than a year or so ago, and people are working hard to make it A LOT easier to use - watch this space! I have always offered to help anyone having trouble with PYS, and can point out some of the quirks to smooth peoples introduction and save them a lot of time and effort that I went through. To say the site just does not work is not really fair. There are a lot of clubs now using it and getting out some useful data. Perhaps it is difficult to understand or work out why it does some things in certain ways, but it is entirely possible to end up with some useful information from it. If you have any questions about the PYS process, or wish to get involved then a quick question on here will be delivered to the inboxes of many PYS users, including myself. Alternatively, you could always drop the RYA technical dept a line, but they are fairly busy with all things returns at the moment. George/Mike, did you file paper returns if you couldnt make the PYS work for you?Chris
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com , Paul Craig <sailtastic@…> wrote:
George,
If you’d asked me my opinions a year ago I would have agreed. However following recent improvements the PYS site is now significantly easier to use and I would recommend and encourage as many clubs to use it.
Hopefully the last of the big quirks will be removed in the ongoing maintenance that Chris referred to, and finally the system will be easily accessible to all mere mortals.
The site enables the removal of results that are way out of line with the bulk of the fleet, so these outliers will not affect the corrections, and selection of multiple benchmarks is available so that if your N18 is known to be well sailed then leave him as a benchmark but also consider one of your ‘ordinary boats’ as a benchmark. The system will then ensure that everything doesn’t get too skewed too much by the one ‘well sailed boat’.
At the end of the day some boats may perform better in your prevalent conditions and this will get absorbed into the fleet average nationally for the official PY numbers. If however you want your club racing to be closer, with more opportunities for the ‘ordinary boats’ to win or be nearer to top places then use of the PYS suggested numbers that the system spits out for your club should allow for closer racing, but use of these is down to the club.
The other thing to know is that the PYS system is not annual. That is, it continuously adjusts the numbers based on all the historical races entered, so the more races you enter the better the data. I have nearly 3 years of results for my club now in PYS and the adjustments are surprisingly small with the exception of classes that someone bought into, sailed 5 times then bought something else. In these cases the output is of little use and at a national level will be lost in the noise, but if you get several years worth of data in and under your belt I can assure you that the suggestions will be useful.
Good luck
PaulTo: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: gmorris@…
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 19:16:53 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)My experience of the PYS website is that it does
not work, is capricious, never seems to do the same thing twice and is in all
respects unusable. Definitely not worth the pain. Am I doing something wrong?
- probably, but this site should be usable by ordinary mortals with normal
domestic computer skills. The main thing that it does illustrate very well,
though, is that in a fleet of, say, a dozen boats sailing 80 races a year the
number of ‘typical’ races you get is about five. In all the others someone will
have got a bad start, someone will have capsized, the wind or tide will have
changed dramatically during the race dumping the slower boats and so
on. If your benchmark boat is a well sailed N18 which wins by 5
minutes all the ‘ordinary’ boats get recommended handicaps of over 1100. OK, so
the benchmark should have been one of the ‘ordinary boats’ but if you know that
they are all poor performers, that doesn’t work either. I guess we need a bigger
fleet with fewer good helms sailing boats with known bandit handicaps (N18,
Phantom, MPS). Not very helpful, I’m afraid, but the ‘feeling in the water’
method of adjusting handicaps is at least as good.Rgds
George Morris
----- Original Message -----
From:
Mike .
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.comSent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 1:22
PM
Subject: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return
(with apologies to non-UK members)It’s that time of year again! I read on the PYS website that:
“The basis of this website is to primarily build up a usable Club
Return to be considered in analysis for the following years Portsmouth
Number list. However, in order to produce a usable return, clubs need
to make sure that the numbers returned to the RYA accurately reflect your
clubs boats performance on your club waters. By analysing the race
results, the website will offer each club simply advice on how best to
adjust numbers to ensure this is returned.” (my bold)
Isn’t there something of a Catch 22 here? That is, you need to be
using ‘suitable’ numbers in your handicap racing for the annual return to
reflect your view of how the boats at your club perform, but many sailors will
only accept PY numbers for handicap racing! (The RYA state
that “If your club actively uses the PYS analysis website you will
not need to but may wish to complete a return as the RYA will take a snap shot
of the data you have submitted to the website on the 30th of November and use
this as your return data.”)
I suppose that it might be possible to re-run your club’s results with
‘more accurate’ local PY values before submitting them to the PYS site, but
IMHO life’s too short, etc…
So what’s the experience of those in this group with the PYS system: is
it worth the pain?
CheersMike
Lancing SC
It was for Thornbury Sailing Club.
John
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George Morris
Sent: 02 December 2011 21:44
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
Which club was that then? - Plymouth Corinthian, Grafham or West Wittering?
Rgds
George
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Craig
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
George, for your information the data I entered for my club for 2011 contains results for a WETA which sails at our club. So the PYS system will start catching them.
Paul
To: gmorris@toucansurf.com; sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: chrisgandy@me.com
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 11:11:25 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
On 30 Nov 2011, at 11:07, Chris Gandy chrisgandy@me.com wrote:
George,
Thanks for filing your returns. Royal Findhorn by any chance? This is the only club to return anything for a Weta and 2010’s return says 1 boat sailed 21 races. The RYA wont publish a number for 1 boat as it would be a personal handicap. We’d have no way of knowing how much CSF came into effect. If you get lots of returns the idea is this would be evened out over the course of a season on different waters. N18 fairs marginally better but only 2 clubs made returns for this class.
It isnt the RYA’s fault, the best way to help your class get a number is to encourage all clubs where they are sailed to make a return. That way you may eventually get enough. I understand you have little incentive but if everyone thought it wasnt worth returning there would be many more classes without numbers (some more surprising than others) so thanks again for taking the time to make a return.
Chris
On 30 Nov 2011, at 07:15, George Morris gmorris@toucansurf.com wrote:
Chris,
Yes, I did overstate my case a bit and I haven’t looked at it recently but until my boat is listed ( a Weta) plus our club’s most numerous class (N18) there is little incentive. But we do file paper returns and always have,
rgds
George
----- Original Message -----
From: chris
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:42 PM
Subject: [sailwave] Re: RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
Thanks Paul, couldn’t have summed it up any better really.
I have no computer skills as such, can open an email and thats about it. However I thought there was some benefit to the PYS a when i saw it a couple of years ago. I think Bas at the RYA got so fed up with me asking him so many questions he asked me to be a guinea pig. I now help out by trying new PYS stuff with real world results, and numptiness before it gets released. I’m not a computer geek by any stretch of the imagination.
I won’t pretend that the site doesnt have quirks, but as Paul said, they are a lot less than a year or so ago, and people are working hard to make it A LOT easier to use - watch this space!
I have always offered to help anyone having trouble with PYS, and can point out some of the quirks to smooth peoples introduction and save them a lot of time and effort that I went through.
To say the site just does not work is not really fair. There are a lot of clubs now using it and getting out some useful data. Perhaps it is difficult to understand or work out why it does some things in certain ways, but it is entirely possible to end up with some useful information from it.
If you have any questions about the PYS process, or wish to get involved then a quick question on here will be delivered to the inboxes of many PYS users, including myself.
Alternatively, you could always drop the RYA technical dept a line, but they are fairly busy with all things returns at the moment.
George/Mike, did you file paper returns if you couldnt make the PYS work for you?
Chris
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Paul Craig <sailtastic@…> wrote:
George,
If you’d asked me my opinions a year ago I would have agreed. However following recent improvements the PYS site is now significantly easier to use and I would recommend and encourage as many clubs to use it.
Hopefully the last of the big quirks will be removed in the ongoing maintenance that Chris referred to, and finally the system will be easily accessible to all mere mortals.
The site enables the removal of results that are way out of line with the bulk of the fleet, so these outliers will not affect the corrections, and selection of multiple benchmarks is available so that if your N18 is known to be well sailed then leave him as a benchmark but also consider one of your ‘ordinary boats’ as a benchmark. The system will then ensure that everything doesn’t get too skewed too much by the one ‘well sailed boat’.
At the end of the day some boats may perform better in your prevalent conditions and this will get absorbed into the fleet average nationally for the official PY numbers. If however you want your club racing to be closer, with more opportunities for the ‘ordinary boats’ to win or be nearer to top places then use of the PYS suggested numbers that the system spits out for your club should allow for closer racing, but use of these is down to the club.
The other thing to know is that the PYS system is not annual. That is, it continuously adjusts the numbers based on all the historical races entered, so the more races you enter the better the data. I have nearly 3 years of results for my club now in PYS and the adjustments are surprisingly small with the exception of classes that someone bought into, sailed 5 times then bought something else. In these cases the output is of little use and at a national level will be lost in the noise, but if you get several years worth of data in and under your belt I can assure you that the suggestions will be useful.
Good luck
PaulTo: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: gmorris@…
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 19:16:53 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)My experience of the PYS website is that it does
not work, is capricious, never seems to do the same thing twice and is in all
respects unusable. Definitely not worth the pain. Am I doing something wrong?
- probably, but this site should be usable by ordinary mortals with normal
domestic computer skills. The main thing that it does illustrate very well,
though, is that in a fleet of, say, a dozen boats sailing 80 races a year the
number of ‘typical’ races you get is about five. In all the others someone will
have got a bad start, someone will have capsized, the wind or tide will have
changed dramatically during the race dumping the slower boats and so
on. If your benchmark boat is a well sailed N18 which wins by 5
minutes all the ‘ordinary’ boats get recommended handicaps of over 1100. OK, so
the benchmark should have been one of the ‘ordinary boats’ but if you know that
they are all poor performers, that doesn’t work either. I guess we need a bigger
fleet with fewer good helms sailing boats with known bandit handicaps (N18,
Phantom, MPS). Not very helpful, I’m afraid, but the ‘feeling in the water’
method of adjusting handicaps is at least as good.Rgds
George Morris
----- Original Message -----
From:
Mike .
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 1:22
PM
Subject: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return
(with apologies to non-UK members)It’s that time of year again! I read on the PYS website that:
“The basis of this website is to primarily build up a usable Club
Return to be considered in analysis for the following years Portsmouth
Number list. However, in order to produce a usable return, clubs need
to make sure that the numbers returned to the RYA accurately reflect your
clubs boats performance on your club waters. By analysing the race
results, the website will offer each club simply advice on how best to
adjust numbers to ensure this is returned.” (my bold)
Isn’t there something of a Catch 22 here? That is, you need to be
using ‘suitable’ numbers in your handicap racing for the annual return to
reflect your view of how the boats at your club perform, but many sailors will
only accept PY numbers for handicap racing! (The RYA state
that “If your club actively uses the PYS analysis website you will
not need to but may wish to complete a return as the RYA will take a snap shot
of the data you have submitted to the website on the 30th of November and use
this as your return data.”)
I suppose that it might be possible to re-run your club’s results with
‘more accurate’ local PY values before submitting them to the PYS site, but
IMHO life’s too short, etc…
So what’s the experience of those in this group with the PYS system: is
it worth the pain?
CheersMike
Lancing SC
That’s one I didn’t know about - maybe there are more of us than I thought!
Rgds
George Morris
----- Original Message -----
From:
Harvey, John
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 9:57 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
It was for Thornbury Sailing Club.
John
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George Morris
Sent: 02 December 2011 21:44
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Re: RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
Which club was that then? - Plymouth Corinthian, Grafham or West Wittering?
Rgds
George
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Craig
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
George, for your information the data I entered for my club for 2011 contains results for a WETA which sails at our club. So the PYS system will start catching them.
Paul
To: gmorris@toucansurf.com; sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: chrisgandy@me.com
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 11:11:25 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
On 30 Nov 2011, at 11:07, Chris Gandy <chrisgandy@me.com > wrote:
George,
Thanks for filing your returns. Royal Findhorn by any chance? This is the only club to return anything for a Weta and 2010's return says 1 boat sailed 21 races. The RYA wont publish a number for 1 boat as it would be a personal handicap. We'd have no way of knowing how much CSF came into effect. If you get lots of returns the idea is this would be evened out over the course of a season on different waters. N18 fairs marginally better but only 2 clubs made returns for this class.
It isnt the RYA's fault, the best way to help your class get a number is to encourage all clubs where they are sailed to make a return. That way you may eventually get enough. I understand you have little incentive but if everyone thought it wasnt worth returning there would be many more classes without numbers (some more surprising than others) so thanks again for taking the time to make a return.
Chris
On 30 Nov 2011, at 07:15, George Morris <gmorris@toucansurf.com > wrote:
Chris,
Yes, I did overstate my case a bit and I haven't looked at it recently but until my boat is listed ( a Weta) plus our club's most numerous class (N18) there is little incentive. But we do file paper returns and always have,
rgds
George
----- Original Message -----
From:
chris
Sent:
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:42 PM
Subject: [sailwave] Re: RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)
Thanks Paul, couldn't have summed it up any better really. I have no computer skills as such, can open an email and thats about it. However I thought there was some benefit to the PYS a when i saw it a couple of years ago. I think Bas at the RYA got so fed up with me asking him so many questions he asked me to be a guinea pig. I now help out by trying new PYS stuff with real world results, and numptiness before it gets released. I'm not a computer geek by any stretch of the imagination. I won't pretend that the site doesnt have quirks, but as Paul said, they are a lot less than a year or so ago, and people are working hard to make it A LOT easier to use - watch this space! I have always offered to help anyone having trouble with PYS, and can point out some of the quirks to smooth peoples introduction and save them a lot of time and effort that I went through. To say the site just does not work is not really fair. There are a lot of clubs now using it and getting out some useful data. Perhaps it is difficult to understand or work out why it does some things in certain ways, but it is entirely possible to end up with some useful information from it. If you have any questions about the PYS process, or wish to get involved then a quick question on here will be delivered to the inboxes of many PYS users, including myself. Alternatively, you could always drop the RYA technical dept a line, but they are fairly busy with all things returns at the moment. George/Mike, did you file paper returns if you couldnt make the PYS work for you?Chris
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com , Paul Craig <sailtastic@… > wrote:
George,
If you’d asked me my opinions a year ago I would have agreed. However following recent improvements the PYS site is now significantly easier to use and I would recommend and encourage as many clubs to use it.
Hopefully the last of the big quirks will be removed in the ongoing maintenance that Chris referred to, and finally the system will be easily accessible to all mere mortals.
The site enables the removal of results that are way out of line with the bulk of the fleet, so these outliers will not affect the corrections, and selection of multiple benchmarks is available so that if your N18 is known to be well sailed then leave him as a benchmark but also consider one of your ‘ordinary boats’ as a benchmark. The system will then ensure that everything doesn’t get too skewed too much by the one ‘well sailed boat’.
At the end of the day some boats may perform better in your prevalent conditions and this will get absorbed into the fleet average nationally for the official PY numbers. If however you want your club racing to be closer, with more opportunities for the ‘ordinary boats’ to win or be nearer to top places then use of the PYS suggested numbers that the system spits out for your club should allow for closer racing, but use of these is down to the club.
The other thing to know is that the PYS system is not annual. That is, it continuously adjusts the numbers based on all the historical races entered, so the more races you enter the better the data. I have nearly 3 years of results for my club now in PYS and the adjustments are surprisingly small with the exception of classes that someone bought into, sailed 5 times then bought something else. In these cases the output is of little use and at a national level will be lost in the noise, but if you get several years worth of data in and under your belt I can assure you that the suggestions will be useful.
Good luck
PaulTo: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: gmorris@…
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 19:16:53 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return (with apologies to non-UK members)My experience of the PYS website is that it does
not work, is capricious, never seems to do the same thing twice and is in all
respects unusable. Definitely not worth the pain. Am I doing something wrong?
- probably, but this site should be usable by ordinary mortals with normal
domestic computer skills. The main thing that it does illustrate very well,
though, is that in a fleet of, say, a dozen boats sailing 80 races a year the
number of ‘typical’ races you get is about five. In all the others someone will
have got a bad start, someone will have capsized, the wind or tide will have
changed dramatically during the race dumping the slower boats and so
on. If your benchmark boat is a well sailed N18 which wins by 5
minutes all the ‘ordinary’ boats get recommended handicaps of over 1100. OK, so
the benchmark should have been one of the ‘ordinary boats’ but if you know that
they are all poor performers, that doesn’t work either. I guess we need a bigger
fleet with fewer good helms sailing boats with known bandit handicaps (N18,
Phantom, MPS). Not very helpful, I’m afraid, but the ‘feeling in the water’
method of adjusting handicaps is at least as good.Rgds
George Morris
----- Original Message -----
From:
Mike .
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.comSent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 1:22
PM
Subject: [sailwave] RYA Annual Return
(with apologies to non-UK members)It’s that time of year again! I read on the PYS website that:
“The basis of this website is to primarily build up a usable Club
Return to be considered in analysis for the following years Portsmouth
Number list. However, in order to produce a usable return, clubs need
to make sure that the numbers returned to the RYA accurately reflect your
clubs boats performance on your club waters. By analysing the race
results, the website will offer each club simply advice on how best to
adjust numbers to ensure this is returned.” (my bold)
Isn’t there something of a Catch 22 here? That is, you need to be
using ‘suitable’ numbers in your handicap racing for the annual return to
reflect your view of how the boats at your club perform, but many sailors will
only accept PY numbers for handicap racing! (The RYA state
that “If your club actively uses the PYS analysis website you will
not need to but may wish to complete a return as the RYA will take a snap shot
of the data you have submitted to the website on the 30th of November and use
this as your return data.”)
I suppose that it might be possible to re-run your club’s results with
‘more accurate’ local PY values before submitting them to the PYS site, but
IMHO life’s too short, etc…
So what’s the experience of those in this group with the PYS system: is
it worth the pain?
CheersMike
Lancing SC