RYA return

Imported from Yahoo
1

I did my RYA Portsmouth Yardstick return yesterday. I wish there was a
simple way of using SW to help with this. I had to re-key every race
into the RYA spreadsheet. If Sw would calculate the 'performance
indicator', the time taken would be reduced by 75%.
Regards Mike Swingler Flushing Sailing Club

2

Hi Mike,

Presumably it would need to calculate across N sailwave series, matching
competitors etc etc. Where is the latest description of the calculations
involved, do you (or anybody else) know?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of mikeswingler2000
Sent: 03 October 2006 10:02
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] RYA return

I did my RYA Portsmouth Yardstick return yesterday. I wish there was a
simple way of using SW to help with this. I had to re-key every race
into the RYA spreadsheet. If Sw would calculate the 'performance
indicator', the time taken would be reduced by 75%.
Regards Mike Swingler Flushing Sailing Club

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!-
http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

On-Line Sailwave help...
http://sailwave.com/help/HTML/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

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3

Hallo Colin
There are 2 types of calculation involved.
1. For each race calculate the 'performance indicator', this is the
handicap adjustment required for a boat to equal the 'standard
corrected time' as defined by the RYA method (given in the RYA YR2
disc). Their spreadsheet calculates this, but you have to re-input
all the necessary data for every boat & race. The spreadsheet only
works for each race, so its another results system really. If SW
could produce this calculation as well as, or instead of 'the
handicap needed to win the race' it would save about 75% of the
work. Before we changed to SW we had a homemade DOS programme that
did this automatically. I can email the RYA spreadsheet to you so
you can see.
2. Each Performance Indicator (PI), is then inputted into a homemade
XL spreadsheet for however many races involved, and the average PI
over a period (season or every 4 or more races) for an individual
boat or class of boat worked out. Whilst this sounds like a lot of
work, it doesn't actually take that long to do and might be
complicated to do with SW.
Regards Mike

Hi Mike,

Presumably it would need to calculate across N sailwave series,

matching

competitors etc etc. Where is the latest description of the

calculations

involved, do you (or anybody else) know?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of mikeswingler2000
Sent: 03 October 2006 10:02
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] RYA return

I did my RYA Portsmouth Yardstick return yesterday. I wish there

was a

simple way of using SW to help with this. I had to re-key every

race

into the RYA spreadsheet. If Sw would calculate the 'performance
indicator', the time taken would be reduced by 75%.
Regards Mike Swingler Flushing Sailing Club

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -

!-

http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files'

section at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

On-Line Sailwave help...
http://sailwave.com/help/HTML/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

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02/10/2006

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02/10/2006

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Colin Jenkins" <colin@...> wrote:

-----Original Message-----

4

Colin & Mike,

I know where the latest descriptions of the YR2 Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme calculations are located :wink: on my PC! The spreadsheet available form the RYA for calculating individual race results according the YR2 Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme documentation is a step forward, but the next step is for them to make available a spreadsheet that the consolidates the information for the actual return. Several years ago I did create a spreadsheet to calculate the individual race results of the Symmetric Grand Prix and consolidate the data to see how the individual classes performed in the event. (I have attached the summary worksheet in PDF format)

Yes, matching of competitors and boats (different rig configurations need to be identified) is required across the races being used by someone making an RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Return, but the information is then summarised by class & configuration, e.g. one needs to know if it is a Topaz Uno, Topaz Duo or Topaz Trez and what number of people were sailing it with what sails and were they using a trapeze. This is an extreme case but there are more classes these days allowing flexibility of rigs etc; they are a ‘sailing system’ based around one hull design - in fact Laser started it with Laser Standard, Laser Radial, Laser 4.7 & Laser M rigs.

On to my little hobby horse :wink:

I believe the RYA should take the raw race results data from clubs/events and manipulate the data. The YR2 scheme as it stands is quite a ‘labour of love!’ Especially the suggestions for taking skill level into account. Perhaps we, the Sailwave community, could initiate a centralised database of individual race results with raw race data from all over the world available for analysis by the different achieved rating schemes in use across the world. The data would be analysed say once a week with the data presented as (for example):

  • a set of web pages showing all class ratings for a rating scheme to include
  • the number of different boats

  • the max, min median ratings
  • a web page showing for a class the rating under different rating schemes
  • various statistical and other information
  • geographic regions/clubs supplying data
  • wind speed data if provided
  • types of sailing water if provided and number of locations with that type of sailing water

With this data set it may be possible to create some empirical handicap formula (i.e. based on a boats physical characteristics such as length, beam sail area, trapeze - which is what the Small Cat Handicap Scheme & Texel rating schemes are) tied to achieved performance which allow a rating to be generated for a new boat before it has even raced.

I am sure Colin :wink: would be able to create a ‘button’ somewhere in Sailwave that exports individual race data, or ranges, to a centralised database. Of course some mechanism would have to be included to update information!

Enough, I must go and do my RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme Return.

Kind regards,

Huw

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Colin Jenkins
Sent: 03 October 2006 11:53
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

Hi Mike,

Presumably it would need to calculate across N sailwave series, matching
competitors etc etc. Where is the latest description of the calculations
involved, do you (or anybody else) know?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of mikeswingler2000
Sent: 03 October 2006 10:02
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] RYA return

I did my RYA Portsmouth Yardstick return yesterday. I wish there was a
simple way of using SW to help with this. I had to re-key every race
into the RYA spreadsheet. If Sw would calculate the ‘performance
indicator’, the time taken would be reduced by 75%.
Regards Mike Swingler Flushing Sailing Club

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/
-!- http://www.sailing.org/
-!-
http://www.sailwave.com/
-!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the ‘files’ section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

On-Line Sailwave help…
http://sailwave.com/help/HTML/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

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5

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2221&PN=1&TPN=2

:slight_smile:

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Huw Pearce
Sent: 04 October 2006 10:23
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

Colin & Mike,

I know where the latest descriptions of the YR2 Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme calculations are located :wink: on my PC! The spreadsheet available form the RYA for calculating individual race results according the YR2 Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme documentation is a step forward, but the next step is for them to make available a spreadsheet that the consolidates the information for the actual return. Several years ago I did create a spreadsheet to calculate the individual race results of the Symmetric Grand Prix and consolidate the data to see how the individual classes performed in the event. (I have attached the summary worksheet in PDF format)

Yes, matching of competitors and boats (different rig configurations need to be identified) is required across the races being used by someone making an RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Return, but the information is then summarised by class & configuration, e.g. one needs to know if it is a Topaz Uno, Topaz Duo or Topaz Trez and what number of people were sailing it with what sails and were they using a trapeze. This is an extreme case but there are more classes these days allowing flexibility of rigs etc; they are a ‘sailing system’ based around one hull design - in fact Laser started it with Laser Standard, Laser Radial, Laser 4.7 & Laser M rigs.

On to my little hobby horse :wink:

I believe the RYA should take the raw race results data from clubs/events and manipulate the data. The YR2 scheme as it stands is quite a ‘labour of love!’ Especially the suggestions for taking skill level into account. Perhaps we, the Sailwave community, could initiate a centralised database of individual race results with raw race data from all over the world available for analysis by the different achieved rating schemes in use across the world. The data would be analysed say once a week with the data presented as (for example):

  • a set of web pages showing all class ratings for a rating scheme     to include
    • the number of different boats
    • the max, min median ratings
  • a web page showing for a class the rating under different rating schemes
  • various statistical and other information
      • wind speed data if provided
      •   types of sailing water if provided and number of locations with that type of sailing water
geographic regions/clubs supplying data
    With this data set it may be possible to create some empirical handicap formula (i.e. based on a boats physical characteristics such as length, beam sail area, trapeze - which is what the Small Cat Handicap Scheme & Texel rating schemes are) tied to achieved performance which allow a rating to be generated for a new boat before it has even raced.

I am sure Colin :wink: would be able to create a ‘button’ somewhere in Sailwave that exports individual race data, or ranges, to a centralised database. Of course some mechanism would have to be included to update information!

Enough, I must go and do my RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme Return.

Kind regards,

Huw

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Colin Jenkins
Sent: 03 October 2006 11:53
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

Hi Mike,

Presumably it would need to calculate across N sailwave series, matching
competitors etc etc. Where is the latest description of the calculations
involved, do you (or anybody else) know?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of mikeswingler2000
Sent: 03 October 2006 10:02
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] RYA return

I did my RYA Portsmouth Yardstick return yesterday. I wish there was a
simple way of using SW to help with this. I had to re-key every race
into the RYA spreadsheet. If Sw would calculate the 'performance
indicator', the time taken would be reduced by 75%.

Regards Mike Swingler Flushing Sailing Club

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/
-!- http://www.sailing.org/
-!-
http://www.sailwave.com/
-!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

On-Line Sailwave help...

http://sailwave.com/help/HTML/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:

sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

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6

Hi Huw,

The YR2 I have here is old but it says to not include crew skill factors when doing the return itself… Has that changed…?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Huw Pearce
Sent: 04 October 2006 10:23
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

Colin & Mike,

I know where the latest descriptions of the YR2 Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme calculations are located :wink: on my PC! The spreadsheet available form the RYA for calculating individual race results according the YR2 Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme documentation is a step forward, but the next step is for them to make available a spreadsheet that the consolidates the information for the actual return. Several years ago I did create a spreadsheet to calculate the individual race results of the Symmetric Grand Prix and consolidate the data to see how the individual classes performed in the event. (I have attached the summary worksheet in PDF format)

Yes, matching of competitors and boats (different rig configurations need to be identified) is required across the races being used by someone making an RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Return, but the information is then summarised by class & configuration, e.g. one needs to know if it is a Topaz Uno, Topaz Duo or Topaz Trez and what number of people were sailing it with what sails and were they using a trapeze. This is an extreme case but there are more classes these days allowing flexibility of rigs etc; they are a ‘sailing system’ based around one hull design - in fact Laser started it with Laser Standard, Laser Radial, Laser 4.7 & Laser M rigs.

On to my little hobby horse :wink:

I believe the RYA should take the raw race results data from clubs/events and manipulate the data. The YR2 scheme as it stands is quite a ‘labour of love!’ Especially the suggestions for taking skill level into account. Perhaps we, the Sailwave community, could initiate a centralised database of individual race results with raw race data from all over the world available for analysis by the different achieved rating schemes in use across the world. The data would be analysed say once a week with the data presented as (for example):

  • a set of web pages showing all class ratings for a rating scheme     to include
    • the number of different boats
    • the max, min median ratings
  • a web page showing for a class the rating under different rating schemes
  • various statistical and other information
      • wind speed data if provided
      •   types of sailing water if provided and number of locations with that type of sailing water
geographic regions/clubs supplying data
    With this data set it may be possible to create some empirical handicap formula (i.e. based on a boats physical characteristics such as length, beam sail area, trapeze - which is what the Small Cat Handicap Scheme & Texel rating schemes are) tied to achieved performance which allow a rating to be generated for a new boat before it has even raced.

I am sure Colin :wink: would be able to create a ‘button’ somewhere in Sailwave that exports individual race data, or ranges, to a centralised database. Of course some mechanism would have to be included to update information!

Enough, I must go and do my RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme Return.

Kind regards,

Huw

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Colin Jenkins
Sent: 03 October 2006 11:53
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

Hi Mike,

Presumably it would need to calculate across N sailwave series, matching
competitors etc etc. Where is the latest description of the calculations
involved, do you (or anybody else) know?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of mikeswingler2000
Sent: 03 October 2006 10:02
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] RYA return

I did my RYA Portsmouth Yardstick return yesterday. I wish there was a
simple way of using SW to help with this. I had to re-key every race
into the RYA spreadsheet. If Sw would calculate the 'performance
indicator', the time taken would be reduced by 75%.

Regards Mike Swingler Flushing Sailing Club

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/
-!- http://www.sailing.org/
-!-
http://www.sailwave.com/
-!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

On-Line Sailwave help...

http://sailwave.com/help/HTML/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:

sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

–
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7

Unless I’ve missed it 10 RYA_YR2_v1.xls on the YR2
2006 CD doesn’t include skill factors (= bit of a dead loss, IMHO - CSF
is a major differentiator which generally doesn’t average out well,
unlike with wind/wave conditions, for example). So I’ll probably
revert to my ready reckoning approach based on our Wednesday Evening
Personal Handicap series…

Colin Jenkins wrote:

··· 

Mike
Lancing SC

Hi Huw,

The YR2 I have here is old but it says to not
include crew skill factors when doing the return itself… Has that
changed…?

Regards,

Colin

.

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [

Colin & Mike,

I know where the latest descriptions of the YR2
Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme calculations are located :wink: on my PC! The
spreadsheet available form the RYA for calculating individual race
results according the YR2 Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme documentation is
a step forward, but the next step is for them to make available a
spreadsheet that the consolidates the information for the actual
return. Several years ago I did create a spreadsheet to calculate the
individual race results of the Symmetric Grand Prix and consolidate the
data to see how the individual classes performed in the event. (I have
attached the summary worksheet in PDF format)

Yes, matching of competitors and boats
(different rig configurations need to be identified) is required across
the races being used by someone making an RYA Portsmouth Yardstick
Return, but the information is then summarised by class &
configuration, e.g. one needs to know if it is a Topaz Uno, Topaz Duo
or Topaz Trez and what number of people were sailing it with what sails
and were they using a trapeze. This is an extreme case but there are
more classes these days allowing flexibility of rigs etc; they are a
‘sailing system’ based around one hull design - in fact Laser started
it with Laser Standard, Laser Radial, Laser 4.7 & Laser M rigs.

On to my little hobby horse :wink:

I believe the RYA should take the raw race
results data from clubs/events and manipulate the data. The YR2 scheme
as it stands is quite a ‘labour of love!’ Especially the suggestions
for taking skill level into account. Perhaps we, the Sailwave
community, could initiate a centralised database of individual race
results with raw race data from all over the world available for
analysis by the different achieved rating schemes in use across the
world. The data would be analysed say once a week with the data
presented as (for example):

  • a set of web pages showing all class ratings for
    a rating scheme to include
    • the number of different boats
    • the max, min median ratings
  • a web page showing for a class the rating under
    different rating schemes
  • various statistical and other information
    • geographic regions/clubs
      supplying data
    • wind speed data if provided
    • types
      of sailing water if provided and number of locations with that type of
      sailing water

With
this data set it may be possible to create some empirical handicap
formula (i.e. based on a boats physical characteristics such as length,
beam sail area, trapeze - which is what the Small Cat Handicap Scheme
& Texel rating schemes are) tied to achieved performance which
allow a rating to be generated for a new boat before it has even raced.

I am sure Colin :wink: would be able to create a
‘button’ somewhere in Sailwave that exports individual race data, or
ranges, to a centralised database. Of course some mechanism would have
to be included to update information!

Enough, I must go and do my RYA Portsmouth
Yardstick Scheme Return.

Kind regards,

Huw

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [

Hi Mike,

Presumably it would need to calculate across N sailwave series, matching
competitors etc etc. Where is the latest description of the calculations
involved, do you (or anybody else) know?

Regards,
Colin
.

--
This email has been verified as Virus free
Virus Protection and more available at .

www.sailwavecom
mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Huw Pearce
Sent: 04 October 2006 10:23
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]**On

Behalf Of** Colin Jenkins
Sent: 03 October 2006 11:53
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

  [www.sailwave](http://www.sailwave)com

-----Original Message-----

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On

Behalf Of mikeswingler2000

Sent: 03 October 2006 10:02

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [sailwave] RYA return

I did my RYA Portsmouth Yardstick return yesterday. I wish there was a

simple way of using SW to help with this. I had to re-key every race

into the RYA spreadsheet. If Sw would calculate the 'performance

indicator’, the time taken would be reduced by 75%.

Regards Mike Swingler Flushing Sailing Club

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/
-!- http://www.sailing.org/
-!-

  [http://www.sailwave.com/](http://www.sailwave.com/)

-!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the ‘files’ section
at

  [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/](http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/)

On-Line Sailwave help…

  [http://sailwave.com/help/HTML/](http://sailwave.com/help/HTML/)

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:

  sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com

Yahoo! Groups Links

–

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.12/461 - Release Date:
02/10/2006

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.12/461 - Release Date:
02/10/2006

  [http://www.plus](http://www.plus)      net
8

Hi Colin,

The wording in the latest YR2 is

All allowances for variations from Base Rig and Crew Skill Factor
must be removed before making a Yardstick Return recommending a Number.

So us handicappers before making the return have to do a lot of analysis :frowning:

In my previous posting I did not go on about my other peeve about the YR2 scheme and that is it eliminates the bottom 1/3, I think there is a case for eliminating the say the top 10% and the bottom 25% of performers in each race. If the those at the back of the corrected results skew the ratings then in my view the those at the top of the corrected results also skew the ratings. This is also the reason why I feel that calculating a BCR based on the winner on corrected time is also flawed when trying to get meaningful results over a series of races. At my club some days we have ex-world champions racing and when the results are calculated their rating on the day can be up to 50 points below the published value, which is why the RYA say Crew Skill factor must be assessed and taken into account before making a return. Conversely I have seen less able sailors with a rating value over 150 above the published value. In the SGP analysis attached to my previous message the one can see the effect of different sailing capabilities.

Thanks for the pointer to the interesting discussion on the Y&Y Forum.

Kind regards,

Huw

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Colin Jenkins
Sent: 04 October 2006 11:44
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

Hi Huw,

The YR2 I have here is old but it says to not include crew skill factors when doing the return itself… Has that changed…?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Huw Pearce
Sent: 04 October 2006 10:23
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

Colin & Mike,

I know where the latest descriptions of the YR2 Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme calculations are located ;-) on my PC!  The spreadsheet available form the RYA for calculating individual race results according the YR2 Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme documentation is a step forward, but the next step is for them to make available a spreadsheet that the consolidates the information for the actual return.  Several years ago I did create a spreadsheet to calculate the individual race results of the Symmetric Grand Prix and consolidate the data to see how the individual classes performed in the event. (I have attached the summary worksheet in PDF format)

Yes, matching of competitors and boats (different rig configurations need to be identified) is required across the races being used by someone making an RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Return, but the information is then summarised by class & configuration, e.g. one needs to know if it is a Topaz Uno, Topaz Duo or Topaz Trez and what number of people were sailing it with what sails and were they using a trapeze. This is an extreme case but there are more classes these days allowing flexibility of rigs etc; they are a 'sailing system' based around one hull design - in fact Laser started it with Laser Standard, Laser Radial, Laser 4.7 & Laser M rigs.

On to my little hobby horse ;-)

I believe the RYA should take the raw race results data from clubs/events and manipulate the data.  The YR2 scheme as it stands is quite a 'labour of love!'  Especially the suggestions for taking skill level into account. Perhaps we, the Sailwave community, could initiate a centralised database of individual race results with raw race data from all over the world available for analysis by the different achieved rating schemes in use across the world. The data would be analysed say once a week with the data presented as (for example):

  •   a set of web pages showing all class ratings for a rating scheme       to include
    • the number of different boats
    • the max, min median ratings
  •   a web page showing for a class the rating under different rating schemes
  • various statistical and other information
      • wind speed data if provided
      •     types of sailing water if provided and number of locations with that type of sailing water
  geographic regions/clubs supplying data
      With this data set it may be possible to create some empirical handicap formula (i.e. based on a boats physical characteristics such as length, beam sail area, trapeze - which is what the Small Cat Handicap Scheme & Texel rating schemes are) tied to achieved performance which allow a rating to be generated for a new boat before it has even raced.
I am sure Colin ;-) would be able to create a 'button' somewhere in Sailwave that exports individual race data, or ranges, to a centralised database. Of course some mechanism would have to be included to update information!

Enough, I must go and do my RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme Return.

Kind regards,

Huw

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Colin Jenkins
Sent: 03 October 2006 11:53
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

Hi Mike,

  Presumably it would need to calculate across N sailwave series, matching
  competitors etc etc. Where is the latest description of the calculations
  involved, do you (or anybody else) know?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

  -----Original Message-----

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of mikeswingler2000
Sent: 03 October 2006 10:02
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] RYA return

  I did my RYA Portsmouth Yardstick return yesterday. I wish there was a
  simple way of using SW to help with this. I had to re-key every race
  into the RYA spreadsheet. If Sw would calculate the 'performance
  indicator', the time taken would be reduced by 75%.

Regards Mike Swingler Flushing Sailing Club

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/
-!- http://www.sailing.org/
-!-
http://www.sailwave.com/
-!-

  Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

  On-Line Sailwave help...

http://sailwave.com/help/HTML/

  Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:

sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

–
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9

Mike,

You are 100% correct the YR2 spreadsheet does not incorporate Crew Skill Factor (CSF). I was at an RYA meeting quite a while at which Stuart Creswell, I think it was, had an hour session growing through a procedure for assessing CSF within your club. FYI - I have heard that the RYA is planning training courses for club handicappers and I expect assessment of CSF will be part of it.

What the YR2 spreadsheet does do is give achieved values of rating which can be used to generate Personal Handicaps (PH) which when assessed over a period of time could allow a CSF to be ‘guesstimated/defined’ for each helm/crew combination.

Kind regards,

Huw

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Mike Croker
Sent: 04 October 2006 12:00
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] RYA return

Unless I’ve missed it 10 RYA_YR2_v1.xls on the YR2 2006 CD doesn’t include skill factors (= bit of a dead loss, IMHO - CSF is a major differentiator which generally doesn’t average out well, unlike with wind/wave conditions, for example). So I’ll probably revert to my ready reckoning approach based on our Wednesday Evening Personal Handicap series…


Mike
Lancing SC

Colin Jenkins wrote:

Hi Huw,

The YR2 I have here is old but it says to not include crew skill factors when doing the return itself...  Has that changed...?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]** On Behalf Of** Huw Pearce
Sent: 04 October 2006 10:23
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

Colin & Mike,

  I know where the latest descriptions of the YR2 Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme calculations are located ;-) on my PC!  The spreadsheet available form the RYA for calculating individual race results according the YR2 Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme documentation is a step forward, but the next step is for them to make available a spreadsheet that the consolidates the information for the actual return.  Several years ago I did create a spreadsheet to calculate the individual race results of the Symmetric Grand Prix and consolidate the data to see how the individual classes performed in the event. (I have attached the summary worksheet in PDF format)

  Yes, matching of competitors and boats (different rig configurations need to be identified) is required across the races being used by someone making an RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Return, but the information is then summarised by class & configuration, e.g. one needs to know if it is a Topaz Uno, Topaz Duo or Topaz Trez and what number of people were sailing it with what sails and were they using a trapeze. This is an extreme case but there are more classes these days allowing flexibility of rigs etc; they are a 'sailing system' based around one hull design - in fact Laser started it with Laser Standard, Laser Radial, Laser 4.7 & Laser M rigs.

On to my little hobby horse :wink:

  I believe the RYA should take the raw race results data from clubs/events and manipulate the data.  The YR2 scheme as it stands is quite a 'labour of love!'  Especially the suggestions for taking skill level into account. Perhaps we, the Sailwave community, could initiate a centralised database of individual race results with raw race data from all over the world available for analysis by the different achieved rating schemes in use across the world. The data would be analysed say once a week with the data presented as (for example):

  •     a set of web pages showing all class ratings for a rating scheme         to include
    • the number of different boats
    • the max, min median ratings
  •     a web page showing for a class the rating under different rating schemes
  • various statistical and other information

      • wind speed data if provided

      •       types of sailing water if provided and number of locations with that type of sailing water
    geographic regions/clubs supplying data

        With this data set it may be possible to create some empirical handicap formula (i.e. based on a boats physical characteristics such as length, beam sail area, trapeze - which is what the Small Cat Handicap Scheme & Texel rating schemes are) tied to achieved performance which allow a rating to be generated for a new boat before it has even raced.

  I am sure Colin ;-) would be able to create a 'button' somewhere in Sailwave that exports individual race data, or ranges, to a centralised database. Of course some mechanism would have to be included to update information!

  Enough, I must go and do my RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme Return.

Kind regards,

Huw

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]** On Behalf Of** Colin Jenkins
Sent: 03 October 2006 11:53
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

Hi Mike,

    Presumably it would need to calculate across N sailwave series, matching
    competitors etc etc. Where is the latest description of the calculations
    involved, do you (or anybody else) know?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

    -----Original Message-----

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of mikeswingler2000
Sent: 03 October 2006 10:02
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] RYA return

    I did my RYA Portsmouth Yardstick return yesterday. I wish there was a
    simple way of using SW to help with this. I had to re-key every race
    into the RYA spreadsheet. If Sw would calculate the 'performance
    indicator', the time taken would be reduced by 75%.
    Regards Mike Swingler Flushing Sailing Club

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/
-!- http://www.sailing.org/
-!-
http://www.sailwave.com/
-!-

    Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

    On-Line Sailwave help...

http://sailwave.com/help/HTML/

    Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:

sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

–
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10

Hi Huw,

"All allowances for variations from Base Rig and Crew Skill Factor must be
removed before making a Yardstick Return recommending a Number."

That's what mine says but I've always taken it to mean that if you made an
allowance for CSF when calculating the values you actually used in the club,
you must "remove" those allowances before doing the return; i.e. the values
for the returns do not include CSF.

I always get confused about this.!!

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

···

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11

Hi Colin,

Yes it can be confusing. The RYA scheme, and I think others that are based on assessment of performance, publish effectively an average of averages rating for a class. There has been a perception that different classes perform differently on different types of sailing water, for example a Fireball on the sea and a flat water lake. There was an article in a recent RYA Newsletter analysing this supposition and concluded it was not a valid perception. I will try and find it and send you a scan of it for your files.

The difference between the published rating and the assessed rating for a boat/helm/crew combination in a race can be used to provide a Personal Handicap (HP) in the same manner that your BCR (Back Calculated Rating) works now except based on a different arithmetic algorithm! This where perhaps as Sailwave develops there is flexibility to plug-in different arithmetic algorithms to calculate the assessed performance rating for an individual race and then on to provide a PH.

The Crew Skill Factor analysis worked through at the RYA Seminar was a subjective one based on all competitors ranking each for relative performance and then assigning a numeric value; then combining the individual rankings to produce a consolidate ranking list and at the same time working through any anomalies. I might have stashed away the paper from the seminar, not promising. Just been searching the paper archives and found the the paper from 1999 by Stuart Cresswell entitled “A Method of Estimating Crew Skill Factor (CSF)” - proper magpie! I will scan into electronic form and let you have a copy if you are interested.

I have also found during the search another piece paper with the title “RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme - Personal Handicap Number Allocation” in which it says

“A Personal Handicap Number (PHN) is similar to * Crew Skill Factor* as defined in YR2… . The difference is that whereas Crew Skill Factor is a subjective judgement, a PHN is calculated from past race results.”

Kind regards,

Huw

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Colin Jenkins
Sent: 04 October 2006 12:54
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

Hi Huw,

“All allowances for variations from Base Rig and Crew Skill Factor must be
removed before making a Yardstick Return recommending a Number.”

That’s what mine says but I’ve always taken it to mean that if you made an
allowance for CSF when calculating the values you actually used in the club,
you must “remove” those allowances before doing the return; i.e. the values
for the returns do not include CSF.

I always get confused about this.!!

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

–
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12

Hi Huw,

So just be to sure. You can do a YR2 annual return using elapsed times, class data and an initial PYs. You do not and should not factor in CSFs - is that right?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Huw Pearce
Sent: 04 October 2006 14:43
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

Hi Colin,

Yes it can be confusing. The RYA scheme, and I think others that are based on assessment of performance, publish effectively an average of averages rating for a class. There has been a perception that different classes perform differently on different types of sailing water, for example a Fireball on the sea and a flat water lake. There was an article in a recent RYA Newsletter analysing this supposition and concluded it was not a valid perception. I will try and find it and send you a scan of it for your files.

The difference between the published rating and the assessed rating for a boat/helm/crew combination in a race can be used to provide a Personal Handicap (HP) in the same manner that your BCR (Back Calculated Rating) works now except based on a different arithmetic algorithm! This where perhaps as Sailwave develops there is flexibility to plug-in different arithmetic algorithms to calculate the assessed performance rating for an individual race and then on to provide a PH.

The Crew Skill Factor analysis worked through at the RYA Seminar was a subjective one based on all competitors ranking each for relative performance and then assigning a numeric value; then combining the individual rankings to produce a consolidate ranking list and at the same time working through any anomalies. I might have stashed away the paper from the seminar, not promising. Just been searching the paper archives and found the the paper from 1999 by Stuart Cresswell entitled “A Method of Estimating Crew Skill Factor (CSF)” - proper magpie! I will scan into electronic form and let you have a copy if you are interested.

I have also found during the search another piece paper with the title “RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme - Personal Handicap Number Allocation” in which it says

“A Personal Handicap Number (PHN) is similar to * Crew Skill Factor* as defined in YR2… . The difference is that whereas Crew Skill Factor is a subjective judgement, a PHN is calculated from past race results.”

Kind regards,

Huw

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Colin Jenkins
Sent: 04 October 2006 12:54
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

Hi Huw,

"All allowances for variations from Base Rig and Crew Skill Factor must be
removed before making a Yardstick Return recommending a Number."

That's what mine says but I've always taken it to mean that if you made an
allowance for CSF when calculating the values you actually used in the club,
you must "remove" those allowances before doing the return; i.e. the values
for the returns do not include CSF.

I always get confused about this.!!

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

–
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13

Hi Colin,

So yes you can make a return without taking into account any Crew Skill Factor, I suspect this what happens in the majority of cases, using elapsed time and published class rating values; as the analysis of Crew Skill Factor can be time consuming and I as I said in my earlier email even the RYA consider on the whole a subjective assessment. The calculation of Personal Handicaps from race results can provide evidence in support.

The way I do the Annual Portsmouth Yardstick Return is

  • use a spreadsheet like the one available from the RYA on the RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme CD-ROM to calculate the individual race results which generates an assessed rating each boat in that race according to the RYA arithmetic algorithm
  • combine the individual assessed ratings for each boat from each race in which it took part
  • generate an average rating for each boat from the assessed rating values (avoiding poor results!)
  • then look at the results knowing who was sailing each boat and decide if there is a Crew Skill Factor involved if so decide what it should be for that boat/crew and determine a rating value
  • then I generate an average for a class from all the competing boats
  • finally I decide if I should propose a change of rating to the RYA

Basically it is a ‘gut feel’ response at the end of the day :wink: for me.

Kind regards,

Huw

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Colin Jenkins
Sent: 04 October 2006 14:57
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

Hi Huw,

So just be to sure. You can do a YR2 annual return using elapsed times, class data and an initial PYs. You do not and should not factor in CSFs - is that right?

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Huw Pearce
Sent: 04 October 2006 14:43
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

Hi Colin,

Yes it can be confusing. The RYA scheme, and I think others that are based on assessment of performance, publish effectively an average of averages rating for a class. There has been a perception that different classes perform differently on different types of sailing water, for example a Fireball on the sea and a flat water lake.  There was an article in a recent RYA Newsletter analysing this supposition and concluded it was not a valid perception. I will try and find it and send you a scan of it for your files.

The difference between the published rating and the assessed rating for a boat/helm/crew combination in a race can be used to provide a Personal Handicap (HP) in the same manner that your BCR (Back Calculated Rating) works now except based on a different arithmetic algorithm! This where perhaps as Sailwave develops there is flexibility to plug-in different arithmetic algorithms to calculate the assessed performance rating for an individual race and then on to provide a PH.

The Crew Skill Factor analysis worked through at the RYA Seminar was a subjective one based on all competitors ranking each for relative performance and then assigning a numeric value; then combining the individual rankings to produce a consolidate ranking list and at the same time working through any anomalies.  I might have stashed away the paper from the seminar, not promising. Just been searching the paper archives and found the the paper from 1999 by Stuart Cresswell entitled "A Method of Estimating Crew Skill Factor (CSF)" - proper magpie! I will scan into electronic form and let you have a copy if you are interested.

I have also found during the search another piece paper with the title "RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme - Personal Handicap Number Allocation" in which it says

            "A Personal Handicap Number (PHN) is similar to *Crew Skill Factor* as defined in YR2... . The difference is that whereas *Crew Skill Factor* is a subjective judgement, a PHN is calculated from past race results."

Kind regards,

Huw

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Colin Jenkins
Sent: 04 October 2006 12:54
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

Hi Huw,

  "All allowances for variations from Base Rig and Crew Skill Factor must be
  removed before making a Yardstick Return recommending a Number."

  That's what mine says but I've always taken it to mean that if you made an
  allowance for CSF when calculating the values you actually used in the club,
  you must "remove" those allowances before doing the return; i.e. the values
  for the returns do not include CSF.

  I always get confused about this.!!

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

–
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14

Hi Colin and Huw
My method is very similar to Huw's, but I make no attempt to assess
CSF, either for in season adjustments, or for the YR2 return. In my
opinion, whilst CSF is a very important element in determining a
fair handicap - it is so subjective that to try and estimate it
would be very difficult, time consuming (involving on the water
observation), and controversial. I tried including the bottom 1/3 a
couple of years ago, it made a huge difference to the results, and I
abandoned the idea. Any adjustment method has to be justified to the
competitors - and I prefer to rely on the arithmetic. In our club,
nearly all the boats sailing PY are one of a kind (cruisers), we end
up with effectively a golf (personal)handicap.
Regards Mike

Hi Colin,

So yes you can make a return without taking into account any Crew

Skill

Factor, I suspect this what happens in the majority of cases,

using elapsed

time and published class rating values; as the analysis of Crew

Skill Factor

can be time consuming and I as I said in my earlier email even the

RYA

consider on the whole a subjective assessment. The calculation of

Personal

Handicaps from race results can provide evidence in support.

The way I do the Annual Portsmouth Yardstick Return is
  a.. use a spreadsheet like the one available from the RYA on the

RYA

Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme CD-ROM to calculate the individual

race results

which generates an assessed rating each boat in that race

according to the

RYA arithmetic algorithm
  b.. combine the individual assessed ratings for each boat from

each race

in which it took part
  c.. generate an average rating for each boat from the assessed

rating

values (avoiding poor results!)
  d.. then look at the results knowing who was sailing each boat

and decide

if there is a Crew Skill Factor involved if so decide what it

should be for

that boat/crew and determine a rating value
  e.. then I generate an average for a class from all the

competing boats

  f.. finally I decide if I should propose a change of rating to

the RYA

Basically it is a 'gut feel' response at the end of the day :wink:

for me.

Kind regards,
Huw

  From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf

Of Colin Jenkins
  Sent: 04 October 2006 14:57
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

  Hi Huw,

  So just be to sure. You can do a YR2 annual return using

elapsed times,

class data and an initial PYs. You do not and should not factor

in CSFs -

is that right?

  Regards,
  Colin
  www.sailwave.com

    From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On

Behalf Of Huw Pearce
    Sent: 04 October 2006 14:43
    To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

    Hi Colin,

    Yes it can be confusing. The RYA scheme, and I think others

that are

based on assessment of performance, publish effectively an average

of

averages rating for a class. There has been a perception that

different

classes perform differently on different types of sailing water,

for example

a Fireball on the sea and a flat water lake. There was an article

in a

recent RYA Newsletter analysing this supposition and concluded it

was not a

valid perception. I will try and find it and send you a scan of it

for your

files.

    The difference between the published rating and the assessed

rating for

a boat/helm/crew combination in a race can be used to provide a

Personal

Handicap (HP) in the same manner that your BCR (Back Calculated

Rating)

works now except based on a different arithmetic algorithm! This

where

perhaps as Sailwave develops there is flexibility to plug-in

different

arithmetic algorithms to calculate the assessed performance rating

for an

individual race and then on to provide a PH.

    The Crew Skill Factor analysis worked through at the RYA

Seminar was a

subjective one based on all competitors ranking each for relative
performance and then assigning a numeric value; then combining the
individual rankings to produce a consolidate ranking list and at

the same

time working through any anomalies. I might have stashed away the

paper

from the seminar, not promising. Just been searching the paper

archives and

found the the paper from 1999 by Stuart Cresswell entitled "A

Method of

Estimating Crew Skill Factor (CSF)" - proper magpie! I will scan

into

electronic form and let you have a copy if you are interested.

    I have also found during the search another piece paper with

the title

"RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme - Personal Handicap Number

Allocation" in

which it says

                "A Personal Handicap Number (PHN) is similar to

Crew Skill

Factor as defined in YR2... . The difference is that whereas Crew

Skill

Factor is a subjective judgement, a PHN is calculated from past

race

results."

    Kind regards,
    Huw

      From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On

Behalf Of Colin Jenkins
      Sent: 04 October 2006 12:54
      To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [sailwave] RYA return

      Hi Huw,

      "All allowances for variations from Base Rig and Crew Skill

Factor

must be
      removed before making a Yardstick Return recommending a

Number."

      That's what mine says but I've always taken it to mean that

if you

made an
      allowance for CSF when calculating the values you actually

used in the

club,
      you must "remove" those allowances before doing the return;

i.e. the

values
      for the returns do not include CSF.

      I always get confused about this.!!

      Regards,
      Colin
      www.sailwave.com

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Date:

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Huw Pearce" <huw.pearce@...> wrote:

  -----Original Message-----
    -----Original Message-----
      -----Original Message-----
03/10/2006

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