Mark,
Thanks for your feedback. The thing I’m wrestling with is English
grammar, I think. The tense of the first sentence clearly applies to
the individual race, and there is no indicated change of tense in the
second sentence of the same paragraph. I’m not an English major, nor a
lawyer, but I can find no change in tense, either express, or implied
in the paragraph.
An interesting hair to split, to be sure. I’m still not convinced one
way or the other on this one.
Incidentally, it materially impacts the placing of the 1st, and 2nd
boats in one of our fleets:
(See FS2).
Regards,
Patrick
Mark Townsend wrote:
···
http://www.bhyc.on.ca/club_racing/thursdays_2006/final.html
The way
Sailwave
scores DNC’s is correct according to several judges and chief scorers.
I have
never seen the rule interpreted in the manner you are proposing before.
If you
look at the Notice for the Ullman Series http://www.ullmansails.com/UllmanSeries.pdf
you will see that an instruction was specifically inserted to resolve
that
issue. NOR 4.3
4.3.
A boat not entering a regatta will be scored for the finishing
place 2 more than the last place boat in the regatta.
This was
specifically included as we didn’t
want the DNC score to keep increasing throughout the series.
If the rule
had been written “**A boat
that did not come to the starting
area shall be scored points for the finishing place one more than the
number of
boats entered in the series at
the time of
the race”. I would agree with your interpretation, however
it is not.
Mark Townsend
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Patrick Toal
(Personal)
Sent: Friday, October
27, 2006 5:28
AM
To:
Subject: Re:
[sailwave] Club
Racing – Late Entries
All,
Thanks for your feedback. Since this has everything to do with A9,
let’s
look at it here:
RACE SCORES IN A SERIES LONGER THAN A REGATTA
For a series that is held over a period of time longer than a regatta,
a boat that came to the starting area but did not start, did not finish,
retired after finishing or was disqualified shall be scored points for
the
finishing place one more than the number of boats that came to the
starting area. A boat that did not
come to
the starting area shall be
scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of
boats entered in the series.
The pertinent sentence is the last one. Note the changes, and lack of
explicit tense. This is where all the confusion is caused. If I
take the “tense” of the paragraph as “at the time of the
race”, it has a different meaning than “at the time when the series
ends”. The first sentence in the paragraph implies that the tense is
“at the time of the race”, since it refers to the “number of
boats that came to the starting area”, which can only be interpreted to
mean in the context of an individual race. (Otherwise, DNF etc., would
be
calculated the same as DNC).
So… For ALL other boats that I have in my series, including those
that only
sailed one or two races, I have left them included in the DNC value.
The
ONE boat in question here is someone who bought a new boat that only
arrived
near the end of this series, and he didn’t actually register for the
series
until the new boat arrived (a not-too-pertinent fact is that his old
boat was
entered and raced in a different fleet up until the new one arrived).
So the real problem for me here is one that needs to be solved by the
sailing
laywers. I think my interpretation is correct, and that the DNC
value
should only increase for those races where the competitor was
actually
“entered in the series”, and not before…
I’ll tell you one thing for_sure… Next year’s SI’s are going
to
explicitly remove this ambiguity, either through a minimum number of
races to qualify,
or some other mechanism. I hate getting in the middle of things like
this. Scoring should only involve accurate typing skills, and precise
math. Leave the “rule interpretation” to the protest
committees. 
I’m interested in hearing what others think about my conclusions. I’m
not
married to them, but they “feel right” to me. If there’s
something I’m missing, I want to know, and a mailing list of scorers is
the
best resource around. 
Cheers,
Patrick
Martin Bølgen wrote:
Hi!
I do notagree upon your proposals!
IF another boat joins the series, DNC for all previous races should be recalculated!
It doesen't matter if the boat comes from another fleet/class, is brand new, or popped up in another manner!
So, when number of boats increases in a series, the points for DNC increases for ALL races!
And, this is how SW handles it when you rescore!
This is how stuff are set by app.A9....
Another little thing you might want to think about:
"A boat that did not come to the starting area shall be scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of boats entered in the series."
Whic actually means that, if the boat was not so close to the starting line that it couold start, it shall be given DNC...
If this is not how you want it to be, you should change it in the SI....
sailwave@yahoogroups.comsailwave@yahoogroups.comsailwave@yahoogroups.com
To which fleet are you referring?
When did the new boat enter the series?
···
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Toal (Personal)
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006
8:16 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club
Racing – Late Entries
Mark,
Thanks for your feedback. The thing I’m wrestling with is English
grammar, I think. The tense of the first sentence clearly applies to the
individual race, and there is no indicated change of tense in the second sentence
of the same paragraph. I’m not an English major, nor a lawyer, but I can
find no change in tense, either express, or implied in the paragraph.
An interesting hair to split, to be sure. I’m still not convinced one way
or the other on this one.
Incidentally, it materially impacts the placing of the 1st, and 2nd boats in
one of our fleets: http://www.bhyc.on.ca/club_racing/thursdays_2006/final.html
(See FS2).
Regards,
Patrick
Mark Townsend wrote:
The way Sailwave scores DNC’s is correct according to several
judges and chief scorers. I have never seen the rule interpreted in the manner
you are proposing before. If you look at the Notice for the Ullman Series
http://www.ullmansails.com/UllmanSeries.pdf
you will see that an instruction was specifically inserted to resolve that
issue. NOR 4.3
4.3. A boat not entering a regatta will be
scored for the finishing place 2 more than the last place boat in the regatta.
This was specifically included as we didn’t want the DNC
score to keep increasing throughout the series.
If the rule had been written “**A boat that did not come
to the starting area shall be scored points for the finishing place one more
than the number of boats entered in the series at the time of the race”. I would agree with your interpretation,
however it is not.
Mark Townsend
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Patrick Toal
(Personal)
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006
5:28 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club
Racing – Late Entries
All,
Thanks for your feedback. Since this has everything to do with A9, let’s
look at it here:
RACE SCORES IN A SERIES LONGER THAN A REGATTA
For a series that is held over a period of time longer than a regatta,
a boat that came to the starting area but did not start, did not finish,
retired after finishing or was disqualified shall be scored points for the
finishing place one more than the number of boats that came to the
starting area. A boat that did not come to
the starting area shall be
scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of
boats entered in the series.
The pertinent sentence is the last one. Note the changes, and lack of
explicit tense. This is where all the confusion is caused. If I
take the “tense” of the paragraph as “at the time of the
race”, it has a different meaning than “at the time when the series
ends”. The first sentence in the paragraph implies that the tense is
“at the time of the race”, since it refers to the “number of
boats that came to the starting area”, which can only be interpreted to
mean in the context of an individual race. (Otherwise, DNF etc., would be
calculated the same as DNC).
So… For ALL other boats that I have in my series, including those that only
sailed one or two races, I have left them included in the DNC value. The
ONE boat in question here is someone who bought a new boat that only arrived
near the end of this series, and he didn’t actually register for the series
until the new boat arrived (a not-too-pertinent fact is that his old boat was
entered and raced in a different fleet up until the new one arrived).
So the real problem for me here is one that needs to be solved by the sailing
laywers. I think my interpretation is correct, and that the DNC value
should only increase for those races where the competitor was actually
“entered in the series”, and not before…
I’ll tell you one thing for_sure… Next year’s SI’s are going to
explicitly remove this ambiguity, either through a minimum number of races to
qualify, or some other mechanism. I hate getting in the middle of things
like this. Scoring should only involve accurate typing skills, and
precise math. Leave the “rule interpretation” to the protest
committees.
I’m interested in hearing what others think about my conclusions. I’m not
married to them, but they “feel right” to me. If there’s
something I’m missing, I want to know, and a mailing list of scorers is the
best resource around.
Cheers,
Patrick
Martin Bølgen wrote:
Hi!
I do notagree upon your proposals!
IF another boat joins the series, DNC for all previous races should be recalculated!
It doesen't matter if the boat comes from another fleet/class, is brand new, or popped up in another manner!
So, when number of boats increases in a series, the points for DNC increases for ALL races!
And, this is how SW handles it when you rescore!
This is how stuff are set by app.A9....
Another little thing you might want to think about:
"A boat that did not come to the starting area shall be scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of boats entered in the series."
Whic actually means that, if the boat was not so close to the starting line that it couold start, it shall be given DNC...
If this is not how you want it to be, you should change it in the SI....
Additionally where is you NOR and SI’s?
···
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Toal (Personal)
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006
8:16 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club
Racing – Late Entries
Mark,
Thanks for your feedback. The thing I’m wrestling with is English
grammar, I think. The tense of the first sentence clearly applies to the
individual race, and there is no indicated change of tense in the second
sentence of the same paragraph. I’m not an English major, nor a lawyer,
but I can find no change in tense, either express, or implied in the paragraph.
An interesting hair to split, to be sure. I’m still not convinced one way
or the other on this one.
Incidentally, it materially impacts the placing of the 1st, and 2nd boats in
one of our fleets: http://www.bhyc.on.ca/club_racing/thursdays_2006/final.html
(See FS2).
Regards,
Patrick
Mark Townsend wrote:
The way Sailwave scores DNC’s is correct according to several
judges and chief scorers. I have never seen the rule interpreted in the manner
you are proposing before. If you look at the Notice for the Ullman Series
http://www.ullmansails.com/UllmanSeries.pdf
you will see that an instruction was specifically inserted to resolve that
issue. NOR 4.3
4.3. A boat not entering a regatta will be
scored for the finishing place 2 more than the last place boat in the regatta.
This was specifically included as we didn’t want the DNC
score to keep increasing throughout the series.
If the rule had been written “**A boat that did not come
to the starting area shall be scored points for the finishing place one more
than the number of boats entered in the series at the time of the race”. I would agree with your interpretation,
however it is not.
Mark Townsend
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Patrick Toal
(Personal)
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006
5:28 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Club Racing
– Late Entries
All,
Thanks for your feedback. Since this has everything to do with A9, let’s
look at it here:
RACE SCORES IN A SERIES LONGER THAN A REGATTA
For a series that is held over a period of time longer than a regatta,
a boat that came to the starting area but did not start, did not finish,
retired after finishing or was disqualified shall be scored points for the
finishing place one more than the number of boats that came to the
starting area. A boat that did not come to
the starting area shall be
scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of
boats entered in the series.
The pertinent sentence is the last one. Note the changes, and lack of
explicit tense. This is where all the confusion is caused. If I
take the “tense” of the paragraph as “at the time of the
race”, it has a different meaning than “at the time when the series
ends”. The first sentence in the paragraph implies that the tense is
“at the time of the race”, since it refers to the “number of
boats that came to the starting area”, which can only be interpreted to
mean in the context of an individual race. (Otherwise, DNF etc., would be
calculated the same as DNC).
So… For ALL other boats that I have in my series, including those that only
sailed one or two races, I have left them included in the DNC value. The
ONE boat in question here is someone who bought a new boat that only arrived
near the end of this series, and he didn’t actually register for the series
until the new boat arrived (a not-too-pertinent fact is that his old boat was
entered and raced in a different fleet up until the new one arrived).
So the real problem for me here is one that needs to be solved by the sailing
laywers. I think my interpretation is correct, and that the DNC value
should only increase for those races where the competitor was actually
“entered in the series”, and not before…
I’ll tell you one thing for_sure… Next year’s SI’s are going to
explicitly remove this ambiguity, either through a minimum number of races to
qualify, or some other mechanism. I hate getting in the middle of things
like this. Scoring should only involve accurate typing skills, and
precise math. Leave the “rule interpretation” to the protest
committees.
I’m interested in hearing what others think about my conclusions. I’m not
married to them, but they “feel right” to me. If there’s
something I’m missing, I want to know, and a mailing list of scorers is the
best resource around.
Cheers,
Patrick
Martin Bølgen wrote:
Hi!
I do notagree upon your proposals!
IF another boat joins the series, DNC for all previous races should be recalculated!
It doesen't matter if the boat comes from another fleet/class, is brand new, or popped up in another manner!
So, when number of boats increases in a series, the points for DNC increases for ALL races!
And, this is how SW handles it when you rescore!
This is how stuff are set by app.A9....
Another little thing you might want to think about:
"A boat that did not come to the starting area shall be scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of boats entered in the series."
Whic actually means that, if the boat was not so close to the starting line that it couold start, it shall be given DNC...
If this is not how you want it to be, you should change it in the SI....