I have a problem scoring a fleet of 20 boats. The class is a one design - SCOW. My problem is that the fleet consists of boats of all ages 1970's to the present. Over this period the design had changed from wooden clinker build to fiberglass wooden mast & boom to fiberglass aliminium mast & boom. Weights and speed are therefore different. My headache is how to score the fleet fairly?
Our class of Scow does not have a know PY Number, but there is a PY number for a Lymington scow (but this is a slightly faster version than ours with a PYS number of 1485).
I am a novice but computer literate, hence being asked to operate Sailwave. It was used successfuly last season, but we need to address the above problem without making it too complicted.
what should we do?
a) We have the option of weighing the boats should we make make an adjustment to each boats weight. - None Sailwave option - inappropriate I think & newer boats are stiffer and therefore faster
b)Should we time several races and adjust the PYS number for our fleet with corrected course times. Only recorded timings for 1 race so far and not all fleet included.
c) Or what? - suggestions please.
Nick B-B
Hi Nick
Option b) is probably the best.
The RYA provide advice on how to calculate your own PYs here http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/technical/Pages/pys.aspx
Go to the bottom of the page & there is a spreadsheet & guidance notes to help calculate PYs based on your timed data
One of the problems with local PYs is to eliminate the effect of different crews
This is either an ‘assessment’ by your committee or a personal handicap system
Not sure if the latest spreadsheet covers ‘crew skill factor’
If you have any queries you can ring Bas at the RYA Technical Department & he will give you further guidance if needed
Regards
Ralph
···
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nickbb1@btinternet.com
Sent: 05 May 2009 23:32
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Sailwave - Handicap problem
I have a problem scoring a fleet of 20 boats. The class is a one design - SCOW. My problem is that the fleet consists of boats of all ages 1970’s to the present. Over this period the design had changed from wooden clinker build to fiberglass wooden mast & boom to fiberglass aliminium mast & boom. Weights and speed are therefore different. My headache is how to score the fleet fairly?
Our class of Scow does not have a know PY Number, but there is a PY number for a Lymington scow (but this is a slightly faster version than ours with a PYS number of 1485).
I am a novice but computer literate, hence being asked to operate Sailwave. It was used successfuly last season, but we need to address the above problem without making it too complicted.
what should we do?
a) We have the option of weighing the boats should we make make an adjustment to each boats weight. - None Sailwave option - inappropriate I think & newer boats are stiffer and therefore faster
b)Should we time several races and adjust the PYS number for our fleet with corrected course times. Only recorded timings for 1 race so far and not all fleet included.
c) Or what? - suggestions please.
Nick B-B
Ralph,
Many thanks for your prompt reply. Will follow option b) through. Hoping for a simpler solution but it seems we have no other option but to calculate our own PY number.
Thanks again
Nick
Ralph Tingle wrote:
···
Hi Nick
Option b) is probably the best.
The RYA provide advice on how to calculate your own PYs here http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/technical/Pages/pys.aspx
Go to the bottom of the page & there is a spreadsheet & guidance notes to help calculate PYs based on your timed data
One of the problems with local PYs is to eliminate the effect of different crews
This is either an 'assessment' by your committee or a personal handicap system
Not sure if the latest spreadsheet covers 'crew skill factor'
If you have any queries you can ring Bas at the RYA Technical Department & he will give you further guidance if needed
Ralph
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *nickbb1@btinternet.com
*Sent:* 05 May 2009 23:32
*To:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com
*Subject:* [sailwave] Sailwave - Handicap problem
I have a problem scoring a fleet of 20 boats. The class is a one design - SCOW. My problem is that the fleet consists of boats of all ages 1970's to the present. Over this period the design had changed from wooden clinker build to fiberglass wooden mast & boom to fiberglass aliminium mast & boom. Weights and speed are therefore different. My headache is how to score the fleet fairly?
Our class of Scow does not have a know PY Number, but there is a PY number for a Lymington scow (but this is a slightly faster version than ours with a PYS number of 1485).
I am a novice but computer literate, hence being asked to operate Sailwave. It was used successfuly last season, but we need to address the above problem without making it too complicted.
what should we do?
a) We have the option of weighing the boats should we make make an adjustment to each boats weight. - None Sailwave option - inappropriate I think & newer boats are stiffer and therefore faster
b)Should we time several races and adjust the PYS number for our fleet with corrected course times. Only recorded timings for 1 race so far and not all fleet included.
c) Or what? - suggestions please.
Nick B-B
Handicaps … simple solution - now there’s a contradiction in expectations!
You can guarantee that the PYs you produce will forever be debated in the bar anyway
So you could always use the ‘bar committee’ to set the PYs in the first place 
Regards
Ralph
···
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nick Bentley-Buckle
Sent: 06 May 2009 10:43
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: [Sailwave - Handicap problem
Ralph,
Many thanks for your prompt reply. Will follow option b) through.
Hoping for a simpler solution but it seems we have no other option but
to calculate our own PY number.
Thanks again
Nick
Ralph Tingle wrote:
Hi Nick
Option b) is probably the best.
The RYA provide advice on how to calculate your own PYs here
http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/technical/Pages/pys.aspx
<http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/technical/Pages/pys.aspx>
Go to the bottom of the page & there is a spreadsheet & guidance notes
to help calculate PYs based on your timed data
One of the problems with local PYs is to eliminate the effect of
different crews
This is either an ‘assessment’ by your committee or a personal
handicap system
Not sure if the latest spreadsheet covers ‘crew skill factor’
If you have any queries you can ring Bas at the RYA Technical
Department & he will give you further guidance if needed
Regards
Ralph
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] *On
Behalf Of *nickbb1@btinternet.com
Sent: 05 May 2009 23:32
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Sailwave - Handicap problem
I have a problem scoring a fleet of 20 boats. The class is a one
design - SCOW. My problem is that the fleet consists of boats of all
ages 1970’s to the present. Over this period the design had changed
from wooden clinker build to fiberglass wooden mast & boom to
fiberglass aliminium mast & boom. Weights and speed are therefore
different. My headache is how to score the fleet fairly?
Our class of Scow does not have a know PY Number, but there is a PY
number for a Lymington scow (but this is a slightly faster version
than ours with a PYS number of 1485).
I am a novice but computer literate, hence being asked to operate
Sailwave. It was used successfuly last season, but we need to address
the above problem without making it too complicted.
what should we do?
a) We have the option of weighing the boats should we make make an
adjustment to each boats weight. - None Sailwave option -
inappropriate I think & newer boats are stiffer and therefore faster
b)Should we time several races and adjust the PYS number for our fleet
with corrected course times. Only recorded timings for 1 race so far
and not all fleet included.
c) Or what? - suggestions please.
Nick B-B
Handicaps ... simple solution - now there's a contradiction in expectations!
Amen to that!
You can guarantee that the PYs you produce will forever be debated in the
bar anyway
So you could always use the 'bar committee' to set the PYs in the first
place
Might be a good way to start, but the first question I'd ask would be 'does the fleet want handicaps, or to just race as a development fleet'?
If they want handicaps, should they be personal (Helm A in Boat Z) or by boat type (if you can catagorise them at all)?
I suspect that the happiest result might be to go the personal handicap route, maybe with some form of feedback adjustment (using the BCRs that Sailwave will calculate for you), although as Ralph implies, you will never please all the sailors all of the time
Good luck
Mike
Lancing SC
···
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@...> wrote:
Ralph,
Yes the prospect of handicapping has already caused a controversy. The fleet do not want to become too competitive but they still want clear results!!!! You see my problem. We have debated this for the last year and still none the wiser.
Hmmmmmm
Nick
Ralph Tingle wrote:
···
Handicaps ... simple solution - now there's a contradiction in expectations!
You can guarantee that the PYs you produce will forever be debated in the bar anyway
So you could always use the 'bar committee' to set the PYs in the first place
Ralph
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Nick Bentley-Buckle
*Sent:* 06 May 2009 10:43
*To:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com
*Subject:* [sailwave] Re: [Sailwave - Handicap problem
Ralph,
Many thanks for your prompt reply. Will follow option b) through.
Hoping for a simpler solution but it seems we have no other option but
to calculate our own PY number.
Thanks again
Nick
Ralph Tingle wrote:
>
> Hi Nick
> Option b) is probably the best.
> The RYA provide advice on how to calculate your own PYs here
> http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/technical/Pages/pys.aspx
> <http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/technical/Pages/pys.aspx>
> Go to the bottom of the page & there is a spreadsheet & guidance notes
> to help calculate PYs based on your timed data
>
> One of the problems with local PYs is to eliminate the effect of
> different crews
> This is either an 'assessment' by your committee or a personal
> handicap system
>
> Not sure if the latest spreadsheet covers 'crew skill factor'
> If you have any queries you can ring Bas at the RYA Technical
> Department & he will give you further guidance if needed
>
> Regards
> Ralph
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>] *On
> Behalf Of *nickbb1@btinternet.com <mailto:%2Anickbb1%40btinternet.com>
> *Sent:* 05 May 2009 23:32
> *To:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>
> *Subject:* [sailwave] Sailwave - Handicap problem
>
> I have a problem scoring a fleet of 20 boats. The class is a one
> design - SCOW. My problem is that the fleet consists of boats of all
> ages 1970's to the present. Over this period the design had changed
> from wooden clinker build to fiberglass wooden mast & boom to
> fiberglass aliminium mast & boom. Weights and speed are therefore
> different. My headache is how to score the fleet fairly?
>
> Our class of Scow does not have a know PY Number, but there is a PY
> number for a Lymington scow (but this is a slightly faster version
> than ours with a PYS number of 1485).
>
> I am a novice but computer literate, hence being asked to operate
> Sailwave. It was used successfuly last season, but we need to address
> the above problem without making it too complicted.
>
> what should we do?
>
> a) We have the option of weighing the boats should we make make an
> adjustment to each boats weight. - None Sailwave option -
> inappropriate I think & newer boats are stiffer and therefore faster
>
> b)Should we time several races and adjust the PYS number for our fleet
> with corrected course times. Only recorded timings for 1 race so far
> and not all fleet included.
>
> c) Or what? - suggestions please.
>
> Nick B-B
>
Handicaps are made according to two principles: calculation according to boat dimensions and statistics.
Both systems have weaknesses.
Statistics:
-
don’t give a handicap to new boats
-
don’t give a handicap to foreign boats, unknown in organising country
-
are also based on average level of the crews, the average crew of a First 18 is not the same as for Platu
-
are also based on the usual places where boat types are sailing, some on windy sea, others on calm mountain lakes
Calculations:
-
usually need expensive measurement procedures
-
take time for calculation, so impossible to rate a boat on the day of the regatta
-
have loopholes, especially when the formula in public
-
have also loopholes, added to suspicions, when the formula is secret
Remember:
- the one who knows the formula, the principle of statistics and boats presumably gaining advantage of the system, or even with good knowledge of design (can guess which advantage he can take from a change in one parameter) sails “faster” than average crew…
- the system used in a neighbouring country is always better when it gives a better rating to your boat
- a national system is run by people with knowledge of the national fleet and the national crews, this is always a good base from criticism…
Phil
···
----- Original Message -----
From:
Ralph Tingle
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 12:33 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: [Sailwave - Handicap problem
Handicaps … simple solution - now there’s a contradiction in expectations!
You can guarantee that the PYs you produce will forever be debated in the bar anyway
So you could always use the ‘bar committee’ to set the PYs in the first place
Regards
Ralph
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nick Bentley-Buckle
Sent: 06 May 2009 10:43
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: [Sailwave - Handicap problem
Ralph,
Many thanks for your prompt reply. Will follow option b) through.
Hoping for a simpler solution but it seems we have no other option but
to calculate our own PY number.
Thanks again
Nick
Ralph Tingle wrote:
Hi Nick
Option b) is probably the best.
The RYA provide advice on how to calculate your own PYs here
http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/technical/Pages/pys.aspx
<http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/technical/Pages/pys.aspx>
Go to the bottom of the page & there is a spreadsheet & guidance notes
to help calculate PYs based on your timed data
One of the problems with local PYs is to eliminate the effect of
different crews
This is either an ‘assessment’ by your committee or a personal
handicap system
Not sure if the latest spreadsheet covers ‘crew skill factor’
If you have any queries you can ring Bas at the RYA Technical
Department & he will give you further guidance if needed
Regards
Ralph
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] *On
Behalf Of *nickbb1@btinternet.com
Sent: 05 May 2009 23:32
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Sailwave - Handicap problem
I have a problem scoring a fleet of 20 boats. The class is a one
design - SCOW. My problem is that the fleet consists of boats of all
ages 1970’s to the present. Over this period the design had changed
from wooden clinker build to fiberglass wooden mast & boom to
fiberglass aliminium mast & boom. Weights and speed are therefore
different. My headache is how to score the fleet fairly?
Our class of Scow does not have a know PY Number, but there is a PY
number for a Lymington scow (but this is a slightly faster version
than ours with a PYS number of 1485).
I am a novice but computer literate, hence being asked to operate
Sailwave. It was used successfuly last season, but we need to address
the above problem without making it too complicted.
what should we do?
a) We have the option of weighing the boats should we make make an
adjustment to each boats weight. - None Sailwave option -
inappropriate I think & newer boats are stiffer and therefore faster
b)Should we time several races and adjust the PYS number for our fleet
with corrected course times. Only recorded timings for 1 race so far
and not all fleet included.
c) Or what? - suggestions please.
Nick B-B
Mike,
Thanks also for your input. We would rather not have handicaps but, I can see no other alternative. As as a novice I am not sure what you mean by a 'development fleet'.
By personal handicaps I assume you mean handicapping the helmsman's skill. Yes there are some talented helmsmen, but some of the boats do definitely have a speed advantage over the older boats regardless of helmsmen.
Yes I am sure that there will be an endless debate in the bar, Would recording the weight of the boats and course speed (and perhaps adding a element of age) scotch this!!
In which case how would I program this into Sailwave? I have not used the Sailwave BCRs will look into it.
Seems as though there will be considerable work involved to sort this out!!!!!!
Further feedback appreciated
Nick
Mike Croker wrote:
···
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@...> wrote:
>
> Handicaps ... simple solution - now there's a contradiction in expectations!
>
Amen to that!
> You can guarantee that the PYs you produce will forever be debated in the
> bar anyway
> So you could always use the 'bar committee' to set the PYs in the first
> place
>
Might be a good way to start, but the first question I'd ask would be 'does the fleet want handicaps, or to just race as a development fleet'?
If they want handicaps, should they be personal (Helm A in Boat Z) or by boat type (if you can catagorise them at all)?
I suspect that the happiest result might be to go the personal handicap route, maybe with some form of feedback adjustment (using the BCRs that Sailwave will calculate for you), although as Ralph implies, you will never please all the sailors all of the time
Good luck
Mike
Lancing SC
If it is a small fleet all based at the one club why not run a day’s racing in which helms change boats after each race. By timing the races you could have a decent database with the “helm effect” reduced. You could do this as an annual event. Could become a traditional focus of the season.
Gordon
···
----- Original Message -----
From:
Nick Bentley-Buckle
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 12:24 PM
Subject: [sailwave] Handicap problem
Mike,
Thanks also for your input. We would rather not have handicaps but, I
can see no other alternative. As as a novice I am not sure what you
mean by a ‘development fleet’.
By personal handicaps I assume you mean handicapping the helmsman’s
skill. Yes there are some talented helmsmen, but some of the boats do
definitely have a speed advantage over the older boats regardless of
helmsmen.
Yes I am sure that there will be an endless debate in the bar, Would
recording the weight of the boats and course speed (and perhaps adding a
element of age) scotch this!!
In which case how would I program this into Sailwave? I have not used
the Sailwave BCRs will look into it.
Seems as though there will be considerable work involved to sort this
out!!!
Further feedback appreciated
Nick
Mike Croker wrote:
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com
mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com,
“Ralph Tingle” <rat@…> wrote:
Handicaps … simple solution - now there’s a contradiction in
expectations!
Amen to that!
You can guarantee that the PYs you produce will forever be debated
in the
bar anyway
So you could always use the ‘bar committee’ to set the PYs in the first
place
Might be a good way to start, but the first question I’d ask would be
‘does the fleet want handicaps, or to just race as a development fleet’?
If they want handicaps, should they be personal (Helm A in Boat Z) or
by boat type (if you can catagorise them at all)?
I suspect that the happiest result might be to go the personal
handicap route, maybe with some form of feedback adjustment (using the
BCRs that Sailwave will calculate for you), although as Ralph implies,
you will never please all the sailors all of the time
Good luck
Mike
Lancing SC
has notified the sender that this message has been received.
As as a novice I am not sure what you
mean by a 'development fleet'.
Like National Twelve or Merlin Rocket, where there are a set of restrictions (sail area, max beam, overall length etc.) but you can do (more or less) what you like within those restrictions. The result is that a process of (potentially) expensive evolution results in faster and faster boats (with the RYA PY lagging by at least one year, but that's another story...). So it might be that your Scow fleet would accept that slower boats are just that, and want to tweak / modify / buy new to get closer to the front of the fleet - some people like that sort of thing, whereas others prefer a 'level' playing field. IME, handicaps just remove some of the bigger mole-hills from the playing field
By personal handicaps I assume you mean handicapping the helmsman's
skill. Yes there are some talented helmsmen, but some of the boats do
definitely have a speed advantage over the older boats regardless of
helmsmen.
Can you categorise the boat designs in a sensible way: eg break down into, say, 3 types, each of which would have it's own PY number, or does the fleet contain a myriad of design variations?
If lots of variations then, unless you want to come up with a Scow Measurement Rule (SMR!) based on critical dimensions (if anyone could ever agree on what they were), I suspect that a personal handicap (PH: Crew A + Boat Z) based on past performance might be the easiest for the handicapper to run. At Lancing we have a Wed evening series run on that basis (http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/downloads/results/results08/weds_eve08.html), but we also publish the PY handicap results (using aliases), for those that don't like PH.
HTH
Mike
Lancing SC
···
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Nick Bentley-Buckle <nickbb1@...> wrote: