The penalty SCP (Scoring Penalty) under ISAF states "It shall be a whole number rounding upward .5.
Our SI state the penalty shall be 40% and that is all. The exact wording can be found on page 26 of the RRS PDF http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ISAFRRS20132016Final-[13376].pdf
I changed the SCP penalty from 20% to 40% and it looks to work fine for one boat but another boat it does not seem to round upward.
The boat it works for was a 7 boat fleet. 40% of 7 is 2.8 and rounded upward is a penalty of 3 which is levied properly.
The other boat was in a 3 boat fleet. 40% of 3 is 1.2 points. Rounded upwards to 1.5, the nearest whole number would be 2 points. But Sailwave seems to only round from 1.2 to 1.
The way I see it anytime the % penalty is above a whole number it should be rounded upwards regardless of what the decimal is.
Am I calculating correctly or is Sailwave calculating correctly?
Thanks and sorry for racking your brains.
Hi Dave,
I think Sailwave is calculating it correctly (although I may be a little biased) but the wording says “the number shall be the whole number nearest to 20% of the number of boats entered” if it is exactly 0.5 then this is rounded up. That is my interpretation.
Jon
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On 7 October 2015 at 17:56, d.trude@yahoo.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
The penalty SCP (Scoring Penalty) under ISAF states "It shall be a whole number rounding upward .5.
Our SI state the penalty shall be 40% and that is all. The exact wording can be found on page 26 of the RRS PDF http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ISAFRRS20132016Final-[13376].pdf
I changed the SCP penalty from 20% to 40% and it looks to work fine for one boat but another boat it does not seem to round upward.
The boat it works for was a 7 boat fleet. 40% of 7 is 2.8 and rounded upward is a penalty of 3 which is levied properly.
The other boat was in a 3 boat fleet. 40% of 3 is 1.2 points. Rounded upwards to 1.5, the nearest whole number would be 2 points. But Sailwave seems to only round from 1.2 to 1.
The way I see it anytime the % penalty is above a whole number it should be rounded upwards regardless of what the decimal is.
Am I calculating correctly or is Sailwave calculating correctly?
Thanks and sorry for racking your brains.
Jon Eskdale
07530 112233
Skype “eskdale”
RRS 44.3© states: *When the sailing instructions do not state the number of places,
the number shall be the whole number (rounding 0.5 upward) nearest to 20% of the number of boats entered. *This means that only numbers of decimal 0.5 and larger will be rounded up. The lower numbers will be rounded down.
However, I’ve seen Si’s that specify that all the decimal numbers are rounded up (12.1 -12.9 becomes 13). I don’t think that Sailwave can do this at this time. It would be nice if Sailwave would add additional percentage scoring methods or a switch for the percentage scoring methods to round up any decimal number to the whole number.
Peter
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On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 10:56 AM, d.trude@yahoo.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
The penalty SCP (Scoring Penalty) under ISAF states "It shall be a whole number rounding upward .5.
Our SI state the penalty shall be 40% and that is all. The exact wording can be found on page 26 of the RRS PDF http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ISAFRRS20132016Final-[13376].pdf
I changed the SCP penalty from 20% to 40% and it looks to work fine for one boat but another boat it does not seem to round upward.
The boat it works for was a 7 boat fleet. 40% of 7 is 2.8 and rounded upward is a penalty of 3 which is levied properly.
The other boat was in a 3 boat fleet. 40% of 3 is 1.2 points. Rounded upwards to 1.5, the nearest whole number would be 2 points. But Sailwave seems to only round from 1.2 to 1.
The way I see it anytime the % penalty is above a whole number it should be rounded upwards regardless of what the decimal is.
Am I calculating correctly or is Sailwave calculating correctly?
Thanks and sorry for racking your brains.
You seem to want double rounding (first rounding from 1.2 to 1.5 and
then rounding the resulting 1.5 to 2.0). X.2 would be rounded down while
X.5 would be rounded up.
"Normal" rounding is to the nearest whole number (which is what 44.3(c)
says) but with numbers ending in ".5" you have two possible choices. The
reason why the parenthetical is in the rulebook is to specify one of the
numerous possible conventions for rounding numbers that end in ".5" so
we all will do it the same.
Normally, SIs that create new penalties use the standard language found
in 30.2 ("calculated as stated in 44.3(c)") and if you use that language
then Sailwave does it automatically. [In the US, you'll find the same
clause in rule T2.1.] Otherwise, you'll have to calculate and enter
penalty scores by hand.
Art
···
On 10/7/2015 9:56 AM, d.trude@yahoo.com [sailwave] wrote:
The penalty SCP (Scoring Penalty) under ISAF states "It shall be a
whole number rounding upward .5. Our SI state the penalty shall be
40% and that is all. The exact wording can be found on page 26 of the
RRS PDF
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ISAFRRS20132016Final-[13376].pdf
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ISAFRRS20132016Final-[13376].pdf
I changed the SCP penalty from 20% to 40% and it looks to work fine
for one boat but another boat it does not seem to round upward.
The boat it works for was a 7 boat fleet. 40% of 7 is 2.8 and rounded
upward is a penalty of 3 which is levied properly.
The other boat was in a 3 boat fleet. 40% of 3 is 1.2 points. Rounded
upwards to 1.5, the nearest whole number would be 2 points. But
Sailwave seems to only round from 1.2 to 1.
The way I see it anytime the % penalty is above a whole number it
should be rounded upwards regardless of what the decimal is.
Am I calculating correctly or is Sailwave calculating correctly?
Thanks and sorry for racking your brains.
ISAF indicates to round upwards to the closest .5.
That means that a 1.2 would become a 1.5.
After that normal rounding mathematically would round up to 2.
I am not doing anything other than what ISAF has prescribed.
Someone please have an ISAF Certified Judge make a ruling on this and do it quickly.
This could impact many results.
Peter, Sailwave can calculate a different percentage. You just have to go to the Scoring Properties and change the SCP (Scoring Percentage or Penalty) from 20% to whatever your SI’s say. It is a % of the fleet though.
Art, there are 2 separate rounding operations here.
ISAF prescribes to round up to the nearest .5. That means a 1.2 would become a 1.5.
ISAF also states that it shall be the Closest whole # UPWARDS.
If Sailwave cannot deal with a 1.5 then it should round up to 2 because it is UPWARDS as prescribed by ISAF.
Add .5 to 1.2 and round upwards to the nearest whole #.
Maybe I’m reading through my American glasses and do not understand the rules written in British English.
Maybe US Sailing lost something in the interpretation???
Regardless, ISAF says to round upwards .5 to the nearest whole # and that would be 2 not 1
You must look at the Penalty Rules from a Programmers point of view and then you will see the truth.
There are no .5 in the results and ISAF says Round Upwards.
Sorry for being myself and blunt.
David Trude
1+805–469-3520
West Coast USA Time
As a pedantic Englishman (and also long-time scorer for my Club’s racing), I feel a need to throw in a contribution.
The ISAF Rule contains a very important set of brackets:
When the sailing instructions do not state the number of places, the number shall be the whole number (rounding 0.5
upward) nearest to 20% of the number of boats entered.
With the brackets considered, the “rounding upward” can only apply to a value of 0.5. In all other cases, the penalty should be the “whole number … nearest to 20%”, that is, standard mathematical rounding!
I hope that helps!
Ian Day
···
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 2:47 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Sailwave Penalty Calculations
ISAF indicates to round upwards to the closest .5.
That means that a 1.2 would become a 1.5.
After that normal rounding mathematically would round up to 2.
I am not doing anything other than what ISAF has prescribed.
Someone please have an ISAF Certified Judge make a ruling on this and do it quickly.
This could impact many results.
[It would be good (and is considered a courtesy) to include the prior
postings so a reader can follow the conversation. Postings benefit
everyone, not just the participants, and are often searched later by
others.]
Rule 44.3(c) says "the number shall be the whole number (rounding 0.5
upwards) nearest to XX% of the number of boats entered." The operative
concept is "the whole number ... nearest to XX%." If your percentage
works out to 1.2 then that is nearer to the whole number "1" then the
whole number "2". Personally, I don't see any issue.
I am a member of the US committee that writes the rules (and have been
for almost 20 years) and I can assure you there is no reasonable dispute
as to how to calculate under 44.3(c). Round to the nearest whole number
- when you have ".5" there are two whole numbers equally near and in
that case you round upward. Sailwave does that. You can provide for
something different in your SIs but then Sailwave may not do the
calculations automatically.
Art
PS - My prior message said essentially the same thing, which is one good
reason to always include prior parts of the conversation.
···
On 10/7/2015 7:04 PM, d.trude@yahoo.com [sailwave] wrote:
Peter, Sailwave can calculate a different percentage. You just have
to go to the Scoring Properties and change the SCP (Scoring
Percentage or Penalty) from 20% to whatever your SI's say. It is a %
of the fleet though.
Art, there are 2 separate rounding operations here.
ISAF prescribes to round up to the nearest .5. That means a 1.2 would
become a 1.5. ISAF also states that it shall be the Closest whole #
UPWARDS.
If Sailwave cannot deal with a 1.5 then it should round up to 2
because it is UPWARDS as prescribed by ISAF.
Add .5 to 1.2 and round upwards to the nearest whole #.
Maybe I'm reading through my American glasses and do not understand
the rules written in British English. Maybe US Sailing lost something
in the interpretation???
Regardless, ISAF says to round upwards .5 to the nearest whole # and
that would be 2 not 1
You must look at the Penalty Rules from a Programmers point of view
and then you will see the truth. There are no .5 in the results and
ISAF says Round Upwards.
Sorry for being myself and blunt.
David Trude 1+805--469-3520 West Coast USA Time
Dave, I’m aware that you can change the Scoring Percentage Penalty to any number, but I would like an option (switch or scoring method) that rounds any number upwards to the whole number. I’ve run events where the SI’s stated that the number will be rounded upwards to the whole number. This is called ceiling rounding to the whole number (upwards), the opposite is floor rounding (downwards).
I’m not an ISAF certified judge, but I’m an ISAF certified race officer and I can confirm that the current Sailwave implementation of RRS 44.3© is correct.
Peter
···
On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 8:04 PM, d.trude@yahoo.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Peter, Sailwave can calculate a different percentage. You just have to go to the Scoring Properties and change the SCP (Scoring Percentage or Penalty) from 20% to whatever your SI’s say. It is a % of the fleet though.
Art, there are 2 separate rounding operations here.
ISAF prescribes to round up to the nearest .5. That means a 1.2 would become a 1.5.
ISAF also states that it shall be the Closest whole # UPWARDS.
If Sailwave cannot deal with a 1.5 then it should round up to 2 because it is UPWARDS as prescribed by ISAF.
Add .5 to 1.2 and round upwards to the nearest whole #.
Maybe I’m reading through my American glasses and do not understand the rules written in British English.
Maybe US Sailing lost something in the interpretation???
Regardless, ISAF says to round upwards .5 to the nearest whole # and that would be 2 not 1
You must look at the Penalty Rules from a Programmers point of view and then you will see the truth.
There are no .5 in the results and ISAF says Round Upwards.
Sorry for being myself and blunt.
David Trude
1+805–469-3520
West Coast USA Time
I would like to see how the calculation is written in the program code.
The way I see it, in this instance, it is not rounding upwards are prescribed.
This instance may be an anomaly as the fleet is only 3 boats.
But the ISAF rule does not state you can round down.
The boat finished first and took the 40% penalty of 1.2
1 + 1.2 = 2.2
Rounding .5 upwards would make 2.7 and the nearest whole number would be 3.
That is how I read the rule.
Please show me how it is being calculated.
Thanks
Dave
Dave,
2.2 rounds to 2. So you have two boats scoring 2 pts in the race.
If you were using 20% as suggested by 44.3© or 40% as seems to be the case in your example, there is no number if boats that will give you a penalty of
nnn.5 – the arithmetic doesn’t work.
So forget about the 0.5 and just round the number.
jrc
···
On Oct 8, 2015 8:58 AM, “d.trude@yahoo.com [sailwave]” sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
I would like to see how the calculation is written in the program code.
The way I see it, in this instance, it is not rounding upwards are prescribed.
This instance may be an anomaly as the fleet is only 3 boats.
But the ISAF rule does not state you can round down.
The boat finished first and took the 40% penalty of 1.2
1 + 1.2 = 2.2
Rounding .5 upwards would make 2.7 and the nearest whole number would be 3.
That is how I read the rule.
Please show me how it is being calculated.
Thanks
Dave
Hi Dave,
I think the problem is that you are reading the rule different to everyone else
The rule as I see it, but wording it slightly differently is that points are rounded to the nearest whole number so in your case 2.2 rounds to 2
it also specifies that IF the points end in 0.5 then they should be rounded up.
So in your case the 0.5 does not apply hence 2.2 becomes 2 which is what Sailwave generates
Jon
···
On 8 October 2015 at 16:57, d.trude@yahoo.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
I would like to see how the calculation is written in the program code.
The way I see it, in this instance, it is not rounding upwards are prescribed.
This instance may be an anomaly as the fleet is only 3 boats.
But the ISAF rule does not state you can round down.
The boat finished first and took the 40% penalty of 1.2
1 + 1.2 = 2.2
Rounding .5 upwards would make 2.7 and the nearest whole number would be 3.
That is how I read the rule.
Please show me how it is being calculated.
Thanks
Dave
Jon Eskdale
07530 112233
Skype “eskdale”
OK, good discussion
but nowhere in the rule does it say you can round down.
I know a couple of judges and see what they say.
Thanks
Dave