[sailwave] Re: Flights and all that

Martin_Bolgen · 15 August 2005 11:59

Hi, Mike.

Please tell me about Gate starts. I do not know it..!

Regards,
Martin

···

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Mike Croker <mdcroker@which.net>
Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:07:47 +0100

<html><body>

<tt>
"One of the problems of running races for big fleets (say 100-150+) 
is the ability of the race officer to achieve a fair start" 
 
Er, wasn't that why Gate Starts were introduced? Personally, as a 
competitor, I find 50 boat start lines exciting enough (let alone 150), 
and as a RO more than long enough to manage ;-) 
Having never experienced flights I can't comment on them, but I have 
enjoyed the thrills, and lack of barging, that a gate start can 
produce. Why less barging, because the focus is on a constantly 
changing small group of boats starting / about to start and any unfair 
goings on can be easily spotted, and subsequently penalized, from the 
guard boat :-) 
 
Mike Croker 
Lancing SC 
 
 
 
Ralph Tingle wrote: 
 

Hi Ian 
 
You queried: 
I know its a bit off topic, but what did you (and competitors) think of the flight system itself? I 
think there are mixed feelings about it amongst the gp sailors. 
 
If I could respond from a race management point of view. 
One of the problems of running races for big fleets (say 100-150+) is the ability of the race 
officer to achieve a fair start due to: 
 
LONG START LINES 
ISAF recommend a start line of all boats end to end, multiplied by a factor of up to 1.5. 
In reality, this can be a major problem & the race officer has no option but to settle for a shorter 
line, which then produces overcrowding and in some instances can be quite dangerous, especially with 
mixed class races. 
 
MOVING START LINES 
Many sailors expect the RO to be perfect and be able to call a start line which consists of a start 
boat and pin end which is constantly moving up and down and forwards and backwards. 
This is not a problem in small fleets but it is a different proposition with a line of over 500m and 
100+ boats all wanting to get a perfect start. 
 
COMPETITORS KNOWING WHERE THE LINE IS 
It is difficult enough for competitors to identify transits for a short line but in very long lines 
it becomes pointless when the boat next to you starts moving forward to try & see their pin end 
transit. 
This only causes all the other boats to windward to also edge forward & thereby cause a General 
Recall. 
The greater the number of competitors on the line, the greater the likelihood of a General Recall. 
You may say that the resulting black flag is OK but is it really fair when there is another General 
Recall under black flag & lots of boats got away with it because the race team could only 
conclusively identify some 6 - 10 boats??? 
 
ISAF GUIDELINES 
I have seen somewhere (can't remember where!) that in order to overcome these problems, ISAF have 
expressed a view that starts should ideally be limited to around 60 competitors and therefore the 
flights system will need to be used. 
 
BETTER OR WORSE? 
In deciding if this is a move in the right direction, I suspect that most sailors of will prefer one 
mass start especially as it is more dramatic, the bigger the fleet is. 
Unfortunately, competitors still expect the RO to: 
- be perfect when calling the start, 
- maintain a true line in relation to the wind, 
- ensure that the beat is long enough to prevent carnage at the first rounding of the windward mark 
 
If competitors vote for a single mass start, it should be with the realisation that the RO will try 
his/her best but is, after all, only human!! 
 
Look forward to comments from competitors 
 
Regards 
Ralph 
 
 
 
 
 
 
-!- <a href="http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/">http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/</a> -!- <a href="http://www.sailing.org/">http://www.sailing.org/</a> -!- <a href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a> -!- 
 
Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at 
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/</a> 
 
Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to: 
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com 
Yahoo! Groups Links 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

</tt>



 
<tt>
-!- <a href="http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/">http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/</a> -!- <a href="http://www.sailing.org/">http://www.sailing.org/</a> -!- <a href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a> -!- 
 
Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at 
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/</a> 
 
Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to: 
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 





 
<div style="text-align:center; color:#909090; width:500px;">
<hr style="border-bottom:1px; width:500px; text-align:left;">
<tt>YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS</tt>
</div>
 
<ul>
<tt><li type=square> Visit your group "<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave">sailwave</a>" on the web. </tt>
<tt><li type=square> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <a href="mailto:sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a> </tt>
<tt><li type=square> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.</tt>
</ul>
 
<div style="text-align:center; color:#909090; width:500px;">
<hr style="border-bottom:1px; width:500px; text-align:left;">
</div>




</body></html>

--
Martin Bølgen
97517102/37251906
Grimstad seilforening
--

RalphT · 15 August 2005 13:08

Hi Martin

Try this link from the old ISAF Race Management Manual
Refer to para 9.4

http://www.sailing.org/manuals/newracemanage/procedures2.asp

Regards
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin B�lgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 15 August 2005 13:00
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Flights and all that

Hi, Mike.

Please tell me about Gate starts. I do not know it..!

Regards,
Martin

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Mike Croker <mdcroker@which.net>
Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:07:47 +0100

<html><body>

<tt>
�� "One of the problems of running races for big fleets (say 100-150+) 
�� is the ability of the race officer to achieve a fair start" 
 
Er, wasn't that why Gate Starts were introduced?� Personally, as a 
competitor, I find 50 boat start lines exciting enough (let alone 150), 
and as a RO more than long enough to manage ;-) 
Having never experienced flights I can't comment on them, but I have 
enjoyed the thrills, and lack of barging, that a gate start can 
produce.� Why less barging, because the focus is on a constantly 
changing small group of boats starting / about to start and any unfair 
goings on can be easily spotted, and subsequently penalized, from the 
guard boat :-) 
 
Mike Croker 
Lancing SC 
 
 
 
Ralph Tingle wrote: 
 

Hi Ian 
 
You queried: 
I know its a bit off topic, but what did you (and competitors) think of the flight system itself?

I

think there are mixed feelings about it amongst the gp sailors. 
 
If I could respond from a race management point of view. 
One of the problems of running races for big fleets (say 100-150+) is the ability of the race 
officer to achieve a fair start due to: 
 
LONG START LINES 
ISAF recommend a start line of all boats end to end, multiplied by a factor of up to 1.5. 
In reality, this can be a major problem & the race officer has no option but to settle for a

shorter

line, which then produces overcrowding and in some instances can be quite dangerous, especially

with

mixed class races. 
 
MOVING START LINES 
Many sailors expect the RO to be perfect and be able to call a start line which consists of a

start

boat and pin end which is constantly moving up and down and forwards and backwards. 
This is not a problem in small fleets but it is a different proposition with a line of over 500m

and

100+ boats all wanting to get a perfect start. 
 
COMPETITORS KNOWING WHERE THE LINE IS 
It is difficult enough for competitors to identify transits for a short line but in very long

lines

it becomes pointless when the boat next to you starts moving forward to try & see their pin

end

transit. 
This only causes all the other boats to windward to also edge forward & thereby cause a

General

Recall. 
The greater the number of competitors on the line, the greater the likelihood of a General

Recall.

You may say that the resulting black flag is OK but is it really fair when there is another

General

Recall under black flag & lots of boats got away with it because the race team could only 
conclusively identify some 6 - 10 boats??? 
 
ISAF GUIDELINES 
I have seen somewhere (can't remember where!) that in order to overcome these problems, ISAF

have

expressed a view that starts should ideally be limited to around 60 competitors and therefore

the

flights system will need to be used. 
 
BETTER OR WORSE? 
In deciding if this is a move in the right direction, I suspect that most sailors of will prefer

one

mass start especially as it is more dramatic, the bigger the fleet is. 
Unfortunately, competitors still expect the RO to: 
- be perfect when calling the start, 
- maintain a true line in relation to the wind, 
- ensure that the beat is long enough to prevent carnage at the first rounding of the windward

mark

If competitors vote for a single mass start, it should be with the realisation that the RO will

try

his/her best but is, after all, only human!! 
 
Look forward to comments from competitors 
 
Regards 
Ralph 
 
 
 
 
 
 
-!- <a href="http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/">http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/</a> -!- <a

href="http://www.sailing.org/">http://www.sailing.org/</a> -!- <a
href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a> -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at 
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/</a> 
 
Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to: 
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com 
Yahoo! Groups Links 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
� 
 

</tt>



 
<tt>
-!- <a href="http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/">http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/</a> -!- <a

href="http://www.sailing.org/">http://www.sailing.org/</a> -!- <a
href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a> -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at 
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/</a> 
 
Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to: 
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 





 
<div style="text-align:center; color:#909090; width:500px;">
<hr style="border-bottom:1px; width:500px; text-align:left;">
<tt>YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS</tt>
</div>
 
<ul>
<tt><li type=square>�Visit your group "<a

href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave">sailwave</a>" on the web. �</tt>

<tt><li type=square>�To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: �<a

href="mailto:sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogro
ups.com</a> �</tt>

<tt><li type=square>�Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a

href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.</tt>

</ul>
 
<div style="text-align:center; color:#909090; width:500px;">
<hr style="border-bottom:1px; width:500px; text-align:left;">
</div>




</body></html>

--
Martin B�lgen
97517102/37251906
Grimstad seilforening
--

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

mtownsend · 15 August 2005 15:28

The 505’s use gate starts at there World’s these are the SI’s they use.

13G. GATE STARTS

13G.1 The Committee Vessel will be anchored ~100 m to leeward of mark 3. The gate launch will fly ICF "G". It will be located near the leeward end of the course to be sailed by the pathfinder.

13G.2 The Race Committee will nominate the Pathfinder and the Reserve for the first race. The Pathfinder and the Reserve for subsequent races will be the yachts, which finished 5th and 6th respectively in the preceding race. If these yachts are unable to race, or have acted as Pathfinder previously during the event, then the next finishers not so excused will take their places. The sail number of the Pathfinder will be written on the Committee Vessel's chalkboard/whiteboard prior to each race. Failure of the Pathfinder to follow the instructions outlined herein may result in her disqualification from that race or any restarts of that race. Under such circumstances the Race Committee shall lodge a protest.

13G.3 Between 20 and 30 seconds before the starting signal, and at the instruction of the Race Officer, the Pathfinder will commence a close hauled port tack course from just astern of the Principal Committee Vessel. She will be followed by the Gate Launch, which will keep station close astern of her.

13G.4 The starting line for all yachts except the Pathfinder, shall be between a free‑floating starting mark {(an orange ball)} and the centre of the stern of the Gate Launch. The orange ball will be released from the stern of the Gate Launch approximately 3 seconds before the starting signal.

13.G5 All yachts, except the Pathfinder, shall start on starboard tack after the starting signal. A yacht not having already correctly started and which is on the port side of the Gate Launch while the gate is opening shall not return across the starting line from the course side. RRS 29.2 "Individual Recall" shall not apply. Yachts in violation of this Instruction will be recorded DNS.

13G.6 The Pathfinder will continue her close hauled course for a minimum of 1 minute and any further time deemed necessary by the Race Committee. The Gate Launch will then release the Pathfinder by hailing her. The Pathfinder is then free to tack or hold her course. The Gate Launch will maintain her course and speed for a further 1 minute, or longer, at the discretion of the Race Committee; she will then stop and drift and make a sound signal to indicate that the Gate is fully open. After a minimum of 1 additional minute, ICF 'G" will be lowered together with a sound signal signifying that the gate is closed. No competitor may start after the closing of the gate; any yachts attempting to do so will be scored DNS.

13G.7 A yacht shall not obstruct the Pathfinder. A yacht shall not pass between, or attempt to pass between, the Pathfinder and the Gate Launch or cause another yacht to do so on the Pathfinder's final approach to the RC vessel and during the start. The Race Committee may disqualify any yacht, without a hearing, that violates this Instruction, disqualifying it from that race and any subsequent start of that race. However a yacht shall be entitled to a hearing if another yacht caused her violation in which case that yacht shall act in accordance with RRS 60.1.

13G.8 The Starting Mark and the Gate Launch rank as Starting Marks from the Preparatory Signal until the Gate is closed. The Pathfinder also so ranks as a mark until she has tacked or the Gate is fully open, whichever occurs earlier.

13G.9 A General Recall may be signalled as per RRS 29.3 any time before the closing of the Gate. The new Preparatory Signal will be made 1 minute after ICF "First Substitute" has been lowered.

···

_____

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin Bølgen
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 5:00 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Flights and all that

Hi, Mike.

Please tell me about Gate starts. I do not know it..!

Regards,
Martin

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Mike Croker <mdcroker@which.net>
Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:07:47 +0100

<html><body>

<tt>
"One of the problems of running races for big fleets (say 100-150+) 
is the ability of the race officer to achieve a fair start" 
 
Er, wasn't that why Gate Starts were introduced? Personally, as a 
competitor, I find 50 boat start lines exciting enough (let alone 150), 
and as a RO more than long enough to manage ;-) 
Having never experienced flights I can't comment on them, but I have 
enjoyed the thrills, and lack of barging, that a gate start can 
produce. Why less barging, because the focus is on a constantly 
changing small group of boats starting / about to start and any unfair 
goings on can be easily spotted, and subsequently penalized, from the 
guard boat :-) 
 
Mike Croker 
Lancing SC 
 
 
 
Ralph Tingle wrote: 
 

Hi Ian 
 
You queried: 
I know its a bit off topic, but what did you (and competitors) think of the flight system itself? I 
think there are mixed feelings about it amongst the gp sailors. 
 
If I could respond from a race management point of view. 
One of the problems of running races for big fleets (say 100-150+) is the ability of the race 
officer to achieve a fair start due to: 
 
LONG START LINES 
ISAF recommend a start line of all boats end to end, multiplied by a factor of up to 1.5. 
In reality, this can be a major problem & the race officer has no option but to settle for a shorter 
line, which then produces overcrowding and in some instances can be quite dangerous, especially with 
mixed class races. 
 
MOVING START LINES 
Many sailors expect the RO to be perfect and be able to call a start line which consists of a start 
boat and pin end which is constantly moving up and down and forwards and backwards. 
This is not a problem in small fleets but it is a different proposition with a line of over 500m and 
100+ boats all wanting to get a perfect start. 
 
COMPETITORS KNOWING WHERE THE LINE IS 
It is difficult enough for competitors to identify transits for a short line but in very long lines 
it becomes pointless when the boat next to you starts moving forward to try & see their pin end 
transit. 
This only causes all the other boats to windward to also edge forward & thereby cause a General 
Recall. 
The greater the number of competitors on the line, the greater the likelihood of a General Recall. 
You may say that the resulting black flag is OK but is it really fair when there is another General 
Recall under black flag & lots of boats got away with it because the race team could only 
conclusively identify some 6 - 10 boats??? 
 
ISAF GUIDELINES 
I have seen somewhere (can't remember where!) that in order to overcome these problems, ISAF have 
expressed a view that starts should ideally be limited to around 60 competitors and therefore the 
flights system will need to be used. 
 
BETTER OR WORSE? 
In deciding if this is a move in the right direction, I suspect that most sailors of will prefer one 
mass start especially as it is more dramatic, the bigger the fleet is. 
Unfortunately, competitors still expect the RO to: 
- be perfect when calling the start, 
- maintain a true line in relation to the wind, 
- ensure that the beat is long enough to prevent carnage at the first rounding of the windward mark 
 
If competitors vote for a single mass start, it should be with the realisation that the RO will try 
his/her best but is, after all, only human!! 
 
Look forward to comments from competitors 
 
Regards 
Ralph 
 
 
 
 
 
 
-!- <a href="http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/">http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/</a> -!- <a href="http://www.sailing.org/">http://www.sailing.org/</a> -!- <a href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a> -!- 
 
Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at 
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/</a> 
 
Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to: 
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com 
Yahoo! Groups Links 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

</tt>



 
<tt>
-!- <a href="http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/">http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/</a> -!- <a href="http://www.sailing.org/">http://www.sailing.org/</a> -!- <a href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a> -!- 
 
Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at 
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/</a> 
 
Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to: 
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 





 
<div style="text-align:center; color:#909090; width:500px;">
<hr style="border-bottom:1px; width:500px; text-align:left;">
<tt>YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS</tt>
</div>
 
<ul>
<tt><li type=square> Visit your group "<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave">sailwave</a>" on the web. </tt>
<tt><li type=square> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <a href="mailto:sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a> </tt>
<tt><li type=square> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.</tt>
</ul>
 
<div style="text-align:center; color:#909090; width:500px;">
<hr style="border-bottom:1px; width:500px; text-align:left;">
</div>




</body></html>

--
Martin Bølgen
97517102/37251906
Grimstad seilforening
--

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com

SPONSORED LINKS

Sailing <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Sailing&w1=Sailing&w2=Boating&w3=Caribbean+sailing&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sailing+cruise&w6=Sailing+lesson&c=6&s=112&.sig=wjg04IOTp0BhjOezFBxcmQ>

Boating <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Boating&w1=Sailing&w2=Boating&w3=Caribbean+sailing&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sailing+cruise&w6=Sailing+lesson&c=6&s=112&.sig=h6Hm60-F_R2WDAU_sd0b5A>

Caribbean <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Caribbean+sailing&w1=Sailing&w2=Boating&w3=Caribbean+sailing&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sailing+cruise&w6=Sailing+lesson&c=6&s=112&.sig=tjiufyJu7Y2pL0z2aTxq4g> sailing

Sailing <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Sailing+adventure&w1=Sailing&w2=Boating&w3=Caribbean+sailing&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sailing+cruise&w6=Sailing+lesson&c=6&s=112&.sig=IboJYfM9wJfzPtN2u_fl5A> adventure

Sailing <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Sailing+cruise&w1=Sailing&w2=Boating&w3=Caribbean+sailing&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sailing+cruise&w6=Sailing+lesson&c=6&s=112&.sig=CAy361VzbG_ByUBcxXXQSQ> cruise

Sailing <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Sailing+lesson&w1=Sailing&w2=Boating&w3=Caribbean+sailing&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sailing+cruise&w6=Sailing+lesson&c=6&s=112&.sig=c_o1yf9FNniiWHDZZGMYbw> lesson

_____

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "sailwave <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave> " on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.

_____

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike_Trish_Butterfie · 15 August 2005 19:23

SI for gate starts are in the RYA rule book on distinctive coloured paper.

Mike Butterfield NRO NU NJ
RYA Race Managment Group

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Townsend" <s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com>
To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Flights and all that