[sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals

Martin_Bolgen · 2 June 2005 12:32

Hi, Anders.

I've tested in v.1.62-1.64.
If you do it the way I have described (first one file, then split into 3 files for the finals. It's "easy" to do with new tools/layouts), then you don't gets the result changes!

Just set it up as a fleet race all the time. NO flights! And in the Qual. use score by field. Then you gets 3 1.st and so on.

Martin

···

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Anders Landenstad" <anders.landenstad@telia.com>
Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:10:57 -0000

<html><body>

<tt>
I have done a quick test and found out that we propably need a 
switch to lock the results in a race, so when pressing "score" they 
won't change. 
 
Short breifing ... 
 
About 200 optimist boys will sail a round robin. they will be 
divided into 3 groups (?) BLUE - GREEN - WHITE. After 5 races there 
will be three lists of results BLUE - GREEN - WHITE. 
 
Now it's time for the finals. Each group will now be divided into 
three new groups (?) GOLD - SILVER - BRONZE, so now 1/3 of blue, 
green and white will be in the GOLD-final and so on. 
 
The results from round robin should go into the finals whith no 
changes (!) - There was the switch! 
 
There will be lots of girls sailing too... 
 
The regatta starts the last week of june. 
 
Regards 
 
Anders Landenstad 
Sweden 
 
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@a...> wrote: 

Hi Jan 
Why would you want to allocate 2nd places without any 1sts?? 
You are going away from the basic principle of scoring 
Or do you mean race 1 in the finals? 
 
Your regatta is a difficult one to score automatically & I'm not 

sure how to deal with it 

 
Regards 
Ralph 
 
 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: jan_vasternas [mailto:jv@c…] 
Sent: 01 June 2005 20:48 
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals 
 
 
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "jan_vasternas" <jv@c…> wrote: 
> What is the best way to use sailwave in the following situation ? 
> 
> The qualification part consists of 5 races with 1 discard and is 
> sailed in three groups. After this the top third of each group 

sails 

> in the gold fleet the middle third of each group sails in the 

silver 

> and the bottom third in the bronze final. The finals consists of 

5 

races. 
> In the total score all 10 races should be counted with one 

discard. 

> 
> If each group has 50 sailors the results for a sailor in the 

bronze 

> final could be something like 
> 38, (45), 40, 40, 27, 1, 30, 20, 5, 7 total of 208 
> 
> Any help appreciated. 
 
I think my problems boils down to the following: 
 
Create a series with one race and two competitors. 
Assign Place 2 to both of the competitors in R1. 
When scoring they will both get 1.0 points and 1.0 as nett. 
 
If it was possible to configure that Place 2 would score 2.0 points 
regardless of how other competitors are placed I would be happy. 
Perhaps there is is such an option that I have missed ? 
 
 
 
 
 
-!- <a href="http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/">http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/</a> -!- <a href="http://www.sailing.org/">http://www.sailing.org/</a> - 

!- <a href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a> -!- 

 
Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' 

section at 

<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/</a> 
 
Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to: 
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com 
Yahoo! Groups Links 

 
 
</tt>

 
<tt>
-!- <a href="http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/">http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/</a> -!- <a href="http://www.sailing.org/">http://www.sailing.org/</a> -!- <a href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a> -!- 
 
Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at 
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/</a> 
 
Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to: 
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 



 
<tt><hr width="500">
Yahoo! Groups Links 
<ul>
<li>To visit your group on the web, go to: <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/</a> 
<li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <a href="mailto:sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a> 
<li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
</ul>
</tt>




</body></html>

--
Martin Bølgen
97517102/37251906
Grimstad seilforening
--

Anders_Landenstad · 2 June 2005 13:18

Hi Martin,

yes I know that but...

the results from round robin changes when scoring in the finals (!)
The results from round robin must not change at all! ALL the results
from round robin goes into the final as they were - there is no
sequence in the first five races in the finals because some of the
competitors did not meet each other in round robin.

Anders

Hi, Anders.

I've tested in v.1.62-1.64.
If you do it the way I have described (first one file, then split

into 3 files for the finals. It's "easy" to do with new
tools/layouts), then you don't gets the result changes!

Just set it up as a fleet race all the time. NO flights! And in

the Qual. use score by field. Then you gets 3 1.st and so on.

Martin

From: "Anders Landenstad" <anders.landenstad@t...>
Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:10:57 -0000

><html><body>
>
>
><tt>
>I have done a quick test and found out that we propably need a

>switch to lock the results in a race, so when pressing "score"

they

>won't change. 
> 
>Short breifing ... 
> 
>About 200 optimist boys will sail a round robin. they will be 
>divided into 3 groups (?) BLUE - GREEN - WHITE. After 5 races

there

>will be three lists of results BLUE - GREEN - WHITE. 
> 
>Now it's time for the finals. Each group will now be divided into

>three new groups (?) GOLD - SILVER - BRONZE, so now 1/3 of blue,

>green and white will be in the GOLD-final and so on. 
> 
>The results from round robin should go into the finals whith no

>changes (!) - There was the switch! 
> 
>There will be lots of girls sailing too... 
> 
>The regatta starts the last week of june. 
> 
>Regards 
> 
>Anders Landenstad 
>Sweden 
> 
>--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@a...>

wrote:

>> Hi Jan 
>> Why would you want to allocate 2nd places without any 1sts?? 
>> You are going away from the basic principle of scoring 
>> Or do you mean race 1 in the finals? 
>> 
>> Your regatta is a difficult one to score automatically & I'm

not

>sure how to deal with it 
>> 
>> Regards 
>> Ralph 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: jan_vasternas [mailto:jv@c…] 
>> Sent: 01 June 2005 20:48 
>> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com 
>> Subject: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals 
>> 
>> 
>> — In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "jan_vasternas" <jv@c…>

wrote:

>> > What is the best way to use sailwave in the following

situation ?

>> > 
>> > The qualification part consists of 5 races with 1 discard and

is

>> > sailed in three groups. After this the top third of each

group

>sails 
>> > in the gold fleet the middle third of each group sails in the

>silver 
>> > and the bottom third in the bronze final. The finals consists

of

>5 
>> races. 
>> > In the total score all 10 races should be counted with one

>discard. 
>> > 
>> > If each group has 50 sailors the results for a sailor in the

>bronze 
>> > final could be something like 
>> > 38, (45), 40, 40, 27, 1, 30, 20, 5, 7 total of 208 
>> > 
>> > Any help appreciated. 
>> 
>> I think my problems boils down to the following: 
>> 
>> Create a series with one race and two competitors. 
>> Assign Place 2 to both of the competitors in R1. 
>> When scoring they will both get 1.0 points and 1.0 as nett. 
>> 
>> If it was possible to configure that Place 2 would score 2.0

points

>> regardless of how other competitors are placed I would be

happy.

>> Perhaps there is is such an option that I have missed ? 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -!- <a

href="http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/">http://www.yachtsandyachting
.com/</a> -!- <a
href="http://www.sailing.org/">http://www.sailing.org/</a> -

>!- <a

href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a> -!-

>> 
>> Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files'

>section at 
>> <a

href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.co
m/group/sailwave/</a>

>> 
>> Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to: 
>> sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com 
>> Yahoo! Groups Links 
> 
> 
></tt>
>
> 
><tt>
>-!- <a

href="http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/">http://www.yachtsandyachting
.com/</a> -!- <a
href="http://www.sailing.org/">http://www.sailing.org/</a> -!- <a
href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a> -!-

> 
>Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files'

section at

><a

href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.co
m/group/sailwave/</a>

> 
>Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to: 
>sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com</tt>
> 
>
>
>
>
>
> 
><tt><hr width="500">
>Yahoo! Groups Links 
><ul>
><li>To visit your group on the web, go to: <a

href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.co
m/group/sailwave/</a>

><li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <a

href="mailto:sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
subject=Unsubscribe">sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a>

><li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a

href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Bølgen" <martin@s...> wrote:

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>> -----Original Message----- 
></ul>
></tt>
>
>
>
>
>
></body></html>
>
>
>

--
Martin Bølgen
97517102/37251906
Grimstad seilforening
--

jan_vasternas · 2 June 2005 19:59

Hi all !

Thanks for all the interest shown in this issue !
Try to answer questions from different posts in one.

Yes I have talked to Anders about it. It took a while before he
undertood all the finer details of the sailimg instructions but I
think he has got it know

I dont intend to score 2 sailors the second place without a winner in
a race. The situation occurs when ( as anders describes ) we select
all the "worst" sailors from each group of the qualification and put
them in the bronze final. Probably noone will have a 1st or 2nd from
the qualification races among these sailiors. Still they will be in
the same fleet so the current way that SW calulates score based om the
recorded position will in my experience produce an in this case
unwanted result.

In the gold group the problem is not so evident. If there are 3
sailors having 1st in the same race they will all get the score of 1.0
- no problem. The problem occurs further down at the bottom of the
gold group where the results are more spread out and even more so in
the silver and bronze group.

So the proposal from Anders : "switch to lock the results in a race"
makes a lot of sense to me but of course I cannot judge what impact it
would have on the development work. Beeing in the sw business I know
that there are no easy changes, just a lot of unrealistic demands...

/jan

···

Hi Martin,

yes I know that but...

the results from round robin changes when scoring in the finals (!)
The results from round robin must not change at all! ALL the results
from round robin goes into the final as they were - there is no
sequence in the first five races in the finals because some of the
competitors did not meet each other in round robin.

Anders

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Bølgen" <martin@s…> wrote:
>
> Hi, Anders.
>
> I've tested in v.1.62-1.64.
> If you do it the way I have described (first one file, then split
into 3 files for the finals. It's "easy" to do with new
tools/layouts), then you don't gets the result changes!
>
> Just set it up as a fleet race all the time. NO flights! And in
the Qual. use score by field. Then you gets 3 1.st and so on.
>
> Martin
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> From: "Anders Landenstad" <anders.landenstad@t…>
> Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:10:57 -0000
>
> ><html><body>
> >
> >
> ><tt>
> >I have done a quick test and found out that we propably need a
 
> >switch to lock the results in a race, so when pressing "score"
they 
> >won't change. 
> > 
> >Short breifing … 
> > 
> >About 200 optimist boys will sail a round robin. they will be 
> >divided into 3 groups (?) BLUE - GREEN - WHITE. After 5 races
there 
> >will be three lists of results BLUE - GREEN - WHITE. 
> > 
> >Now it's time for the finals. Each group will now be divided into
 
> >three new groups (?) GOLD - SILVER - BRONZE, so now 1/3 of blue,
 
> >green and white will be in the GOLD-final and so on. 
> > 
> >The results from round robin should go into the finals whith no
 
> >changes (!) - There was the switch! 
> > 
> >There will be lots of girls sailing too… 
> > 
> >The regatta starts the last week of june. 
> > 
> >Regards 
> > 
> >Anders Landenstad 
> >Sweden 
> > 
> >— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@a…>
wrote: 
> >> Hi Jan 
> >> Why would you want to allocate 2nd places without any 1sts?? 
> >> You are going away from the basic principle of scoring 
> >> Or do you mean race 1 in the finals? 
> >> 
> >> Your regatta is a difficult one to score automatically & I'm
not 
> >sure how to deal with it 
> >> 
> >> Regards 
> >> Ralph 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> -----Original Message----- 
> >> From: jan_vasternas [mailto:jv@c…] 
> >> Sent: 01 June 2005 20:48 
> >> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com 
> >> Subject: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> — In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "jan_vasternas" <jv@c…>
wrote: 
> >> > What is the best way to use sailwave in the following
situation ? 
> >> > 
> >> > The qualification part consists of 5 races with 1 discard and
is 
> >> > sailed in three groups. After this the top third of each
group 
> >sails 
> >> > in the gold fleet the middle third of each group sails in the
 
> >silver 
> >> > and the bottom third in the bronze final. The finals consists
of 
> >5 
> >> races. 
> >> > In the total score all 10 races should be counted with one
 
> >discard. 
> >> > 
> >> > If each group has 50 sailors the results for a sailor in the
 
> >bronze 
> >> > final could be something like 
> >> > 38, (45), 40, 40, 27, 1, 30, 20, 5, 7 total of 208 
> >> > 
> >> > Any help appreciated. 
> >> 
> >> I think my problems boils down to the following: 
> >> 
> >> Create a series with one race and two competitors. 
> >> Assign Place 2 to both of the competitors in R1. 
> >> When scoring they will both get 1.0 points and 1.0 as nett. 
> >> 
> >> If it was possible to configure that Place 2 would score 2.0
points 
> >> regardless of how other competitors are placed I would be
happy. 
> >> Perhaps there is is such an option that I have missed ? 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> -!- <a
href="http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/">http://www.yachtsandyachting
.com/</a> -!- <a
href="http://www.sailing.org/">http://www.sailing.org/</a> - 
> >!- <a
href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a> -!- 
> >> 
> >> Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files'
 
> >section at 
> >> <a
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.co
m/group/sailwave/</a> 
> >> 
> >> Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to: 
> >> sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com 
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links 
> > 
> > 
> ></tt>
> >
> > 
> ><tt>
> >-!- <a
href="http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/">http://www.yachtsandyachting
.com/</a> -!- <a
href="http://www.sailing.org/">http://www.sailing.org/</a> -!- <a
href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a> -!- 
> > 
> >Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files'
section at 
> ><a
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.co
m/group/sailwave/</a> 
> > 
> >Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to: 
> >sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com</tt>
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> ><tt><hr width="500">
> >Yahoo! Groups Links 
> ><ul>
> ><li>To visit your group on the web, go to: <a
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.co
m/group/sailwave/</a> 
> ><li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <a
href="mailto:sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
subject=Unsubscribe">sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a> 
> ><li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
> ></ul>
> ></tt>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ></body></html>
> >
> >
> >
>
> –
> Martin Bølgen
> 97517102/37251906
> Grimstad seilforening
> –

RalphT · 3 June 2005 08:20

Hi Jan

When I was testing the flights options (which requires None Appendix LE to be selected ie multiple
1sts, 2nds etc) one of the problems was that if a DNF competitor was changed to a position, the race
results were not recalculated when you hit the score button.
I was then pointed in the direction of the re-arranged recorded places option which requires the
user to make some manual decisions.

If you save your 3 files as Anders has suggested then change to None App KE (not sure where it is
now in 1.6x) will this keep the original positions & therefore the original points???

Worth a try!

Regards
Ralph

jan_vasternas · 4 June 2005 11:44

In 1.64 I guess it would be the Setup->Scoring System->Race Scoring
Tab-> Race tie resolution ?
If I change this the following happens:
Suppose 8 sailors, 1 qualification race in two different groups.
Places are 1,2,3,4 and 1,2,3,4

When I score the points will be 2,4,6,8 2,4,6,8 using the "Average
points" option and

1,3,5,7 1,3,5,7 using the "Shared points" option or the "None" option

When I check the "When scoring across more than one start ..." option
the score is always 1,3,5,7 1,3,5,7 regardless of what I choose in the
"Race tie resolution" option.

I would have liked the scores to be 1,2,3,4 and 1,2,3,4

regards
jan

Hi Jan

When I was testing the flights options (which requires None Appendix

LE to be selected ie multiple

1sts, 2nds etc) one of the problems was that if a DNF competitor was

changed to a position, the race

results were not recalculated when you hit the score button.
I was then pointed in the direction of the re-arranged recorded

places option which requires the

user to make some manual decisions.

If you save your 3 files as Anders has suggested then change to None

App KE (not sure where it is

now in 1.6x) will this keep the original positions & therefore the

original points???

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@a...> wrote:

Worth a try!

Regards
Ralph

ColinJenkins · 4 June 2005 13:49

Hi Jan,

I haven't been following the dialogue closely but if you're scoring flights
in 1.64 the race tie option has no effect. You need to tick the "allow
multiple firsts, seconds etc across multiple starts" option. See the
TopperFlights example that is installed with Sailwave. The 'old' Sailwave
method of using a race tie setting of None was a hack and is now defunct.
Note that having ticked the 'Allow multiple firsts' box the race tie
resolution setting has no effect; I have yet to implement race ties within
flights; but it happens rarely....

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of jan_vasternas
Sent: 04 June 2005 12:44
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals

In 1.64 I guess it would be the Setup->Scoring System->Race Scoring
Tab-> Race tie resolution ?
If I change this the following happens:
Suppose 8 sailors, 1 qualification race in two different groups.
Places are 1,2,3,4 and 1,2,3,4

When I score the points will be 2,4,6,8 2,4,6,8 using the "Average
points" option and

1,3,5,7 1,3,5,7 using the "Shared points" option or the "None" option

When I check the "When scoring across more than one start ..." option
the score is always 1,3,5,7 1,3,5,7 regardless of what I choose in the
"Race tie resolution" option.

I would have liked the scores to be 1,2,3,4 and 1,2,3,4

regards
jan

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@a…> wrote:
> Hi Jan
>
> When I was testing the flights options (which requires None Appendix
LE to be selected ie multiple
> 1sts, 2nds etc) one of the problems was that if a DNF competitor was
changed to a position, the race
> results were not recalculated when you hit the score button.
> I was then pointed in the direction of the re-arranged recorded
places option which requires the
> user to make some manual decisions.
>
> If you save your 3 files as Anders has suggested then change to None
App KE (not sure where it is
> now in 1.6x) will this keep the original positions & therefore the
original points???
>
> Worth a try!
>
>
> Regards
> Ralph

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/
-!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.0 - Release Date: 03/06/2005

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.0 - Release Date: 03/06/2005

ColinJenkins · 4 June 2005 13:51

Hi Jan,

PS: Ticking the "Allow multiple firsts" option also handles holes in
positions; i.e. if you change 3rd to DNF say, you don't have to do anything
else, Sailwave will sort it out.

This is mentioned in the 1,64 release message I think, see also the version
history.

CJ

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of jan_vasternas
Sent: 04 June 2005 12:44
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals

In 1.64 I guess it would be the Setup->Scoring System->Race Scoring
Tab-> Race tie resolution ?
If I change this the following happens:
Suppose 8 sailors, 1 qualification race in two different groups.
Places are 1,2,3,4 and 1,2,3,4

When I score the points will be 2,4,6,8 2,4,6,8 using the "Average
points" option and

1,3,5,7 1,3,5,7 using the "Shared points" option or the "None" option

When I check the "When scoring across more than one start ..." option
the score is always 1,3,5,7 1,3,5,7 regardless of what I choose in the
"Race tie resolution" option.

I would have liked the scores to be 1,2,3,4 and 1,2,3,4

regards
jan

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@a…> wrote:
> Hi Jan
>
> When I was testing the flights options (which requires None Appendix
LE to be selected ie multiple
> 1sts, 2nds etc) one of the problems was that if a DNF competitor was
changed to a position, the race
> results were not recalculated when you hit the score button.
> I was then pointed in the direction of the re-arranged recorded
places option which requires the
> user to make some manual decisions.
>
> If you save your 3 files as Anders has suggested then change to None
App KE (not sure where it is
> now in 1.6x) will this keep the original positions & therefore the
original points???
>
> Worth a try!
>
>
> Regards
> Ralph

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/
-!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.0 - Release Date: 03/06/2005

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.0 - Release Date: 03/06/2005

RalphT · 6 June 2005 08:23

Colin

Jan's origin query was in principle a 'flights' issue but not the (Topper) type that you have been
developing recently:
This is the alternative Qualification & Finals series where individual race scores from the
qualification series are carried forward to a Finals series.

Jan's regatta is:
Qualification series, 5 races, 1 discard, sailed in three fixed groups.
Finals are top third of each group in Gold, middle third Silver & bottom third bronze.
Finals scoring to be by Gold silver etc but ACTUAL points from Qualification to be carried forward.

A suggested solution was after the Qualification, save three versions of the file (labelled Gold,
Silver & Bronze) & delete the competitors from the Qual series who had not qualified for that group.

Jan's problem is that when he hits the score button in a Finals file, the results are automatically
re-scored from the qualification races (which must not happen)

I suggested that in 1.58 if he selected the old app LE option (multiple 1sts) when clicking on score
again, the original placings (points?) were not re calculated (which I had reported as a 'bug')
until the Rearrange Recorded Places option was used.

My suggestion to Jan was this 'bug' might now be a way of achieving what he wants but I was not sure
if you had fixed the issue in 1.6x with all your developments for flights.

This is not a perfect solution but at least by use or non-use of the Rearrange places option for
specified races, the desired scoring system could be achieved (I think)

Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 04 June 2005 14:49
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals

Hi Jan,

I haven't been following the dialogue closely but if you're scoring flights
in 1.64 the race tie option has no effect. You need to tick the "allow
multiple firsts, seconds etc across multiple starts" option. See the
TopperFlights example that is installed with Sailwave. The 'old' Sailwave
method of using a race tie setting of None was a hack and is now defunct.
Note that having ticked the 'Allow multiple firsts' box the race tie
resolution setting has no effect; I have yet to implement race ties within
flights; but it happens rarely....

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of jan_vasternas
Sent: 04 June 2005 12:44
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals

In 1.64 I guess it would be the Setup->Scoring System->Race Scoring
Tab-> Race tie resolution ?
If I change this the following happens:
Suppose 8 sailors, 1 qualification race in two different groups.
Places are 1,2,3,4 and 1,2,3,4

When I score the points will be 2,4,6,8 2,4,6,8 using the "Average
points" option and

1,3,5,7 1,3,5,7 using the "Shared points" option or the "None" option

When I check the "When scoring across more than one start ..." option
the score is always 1,3,5,7 1,3,5,7 regardless of what I choose in the
"Race tie resolution" option.

I would have liked the scores to be 1,2,3,4 and 1,2,3,4

regards
jan

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@a…> wrote:
> Hi Jan
>
> When I was testing the flights options (which requires None Appendix
LE to be selected ie multiple
> 1sts, 2nds etc) one of the problems was that if a DNF competitor was
changed to a position, the race
> results were not recalculated when you hit the score button.
> I was then pointed in the direction of the re-arranged recorded
places option which requires the
> user to make some manual decisions.
>
> If you save your 3 files as Anders has suggested then change to None
App KE (not sure where it is
> now in 1.6x) will this keep the original positions & therefore the
original points???
>
> Worth a try!
>
>
> Regards
> Ralph

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/
-!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.0 - Release Date: 03/06/2005

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.0 - Release Date: 03/06/2005

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

ColinJenkins · 29 June 2005 08:43

Hi Jan et al,

So the proposal from Anders : "switch to lock the results in a race"
makes a lot of sense to me but of course I cannot judge what impact it
would have on the development work. Beeing in the sw business I know
that there are no easy changes, just a lot of unrealistic demands...

Version 1.72 can now handle seeding, qualifications and finals flight
(re)assignments.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of jan_vasternas
Sent: 02 June 2005 21:00
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals

Hi all !

Thanks for all the interest shown in this issue !
Try to answer questions from different posts in one.

Yes I have talked to Anders about it. It took a while before he
undertood all the finer details of the sailimg instructions but I
think he has got it know

I dont intend to score 2 sailors the second place without a winner in
a race. The situation occurs when ( as anders describes ) we select
all the "worst" sailors from each group of the qualification and put
them in the bronze final. Probably noone will have a 1st or 2nd from
the qualification races among these sailiors. Still they will be in
the same fleet so the current way that SW calulates score based om the
recorded position will in my experience produce an in this case
unwanted result.

In the gold group the problem is not so evident. If there are 3
sailors having 1st in the same race they will all get the score of 1.0
- no problem. The problem occurs further down at the bottom of the
gold group where the results are more spread out and even more so in
the silver and bronze group.

So the proposal from Anders : "switch to lock the results in a race"
makes a lot of sense to me but of course I cannot judge what impact it
would have on the development work. Beeing in the sw business I know
that there are no easy changes, just a lot of unrealistic demands...

/jan

> Hi Martin,
>
> yes I know that but…
>
> the results from round robin changes when scoring in the finals (!)
> The results from round robin must not change at all! ALL the results
> from round robin goes into the final as they were - there is no
> sequence in the first five races in the finals because some of the
> competitors did not meet each other in round robin.
>
> Anders
>
> — In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Martin B�lgen" <martin@s…> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Anders.
> >
> > I've tested in v.1.62-1.64.
> > If you do it the way I have described (first one file, then split
> into 3 files for the finals. It's "easy" to do with new
> tools/layouts), then you don't gets the result changes!
> >
> > Just set it up as a fleet race all the time. NO flights! And in
> the Qual. use score by field. Then you gets 3 1.st and so on.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> > From: "Anders Landenstad" <anders.landenstad@t…>
> > Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:10:57 -0000
> >
> > ><html><body>
> > >
> > >
> > ><tt>
> > >I have done a quick test and found out that we propably need a
> 
> > >switch to lock the results in a race, so when pressing "score"
> they 
> > >won't change. 
> > > 
> > >Short breifing … 
> > > 
> > >About 200 optimist boys will sail a round robin. they will be 
> > >divided into 3 groups (?) BLUE - GREEN - WHITE. After 5 races
> there 
> > >will be three lists of results BLUE - GREEN - WHITE. 
> > > 
> > >Now it's time for the finals. Each group will now be divided into
> 
> > >three new groups (?) GOLD - SILVER - BRONZE, so now 1/3 of blue,
> 
> > >green and white will be in the GOLD-final and so on. 
> > > 
> > >The results from round robin should go into the finals whith no
> 
> > >changes (!) - There was the switch! 
> > > 
> > >There will be lots of girls sailing too… 
> > > 
> > >The regatta starts the last week of june. 
> > > 
> > >Regards 
> > > 
> > >Anders Landenstad 
> > >Sweden 
> > > 
> > >— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@a…>
> wrote: 
> > >> Hi Jan 
> > >> Why would you want to allocate 2nd places without any 1sts?? 
> > >> You are going away from the basic principle of scoring 
> > >> Or do you mean race 1 in the finals? 
> > >> 
> > >> Your regatta is a difficult one to score automatically & I'm
> not 
> > >sure how to deal with it 
> > >> 
> > >> Regards 
> > >> Ralph 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> -----Original Message----- 
> > >> From: jan_vasternas [mailto:jv@c…] 
> > >> Sent: 01 June 2005 20:48 
> > >> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com 
> > >> Subject: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> — In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "jan_vasternas" <jv@c…>
> wrote: 
> > >> > What is the best way to use sailwave in the following
> situation ? 
> > >> > 
> > >> > The qualification part consists of 5 races with 1 discard and
> is 
> > >> > sailed in three groups. After this the top third of each
> group 
> > >sails 
> > >> > in the gold fleet the middle third of each group sails in the
> 
> > >silver 
> > >> > and the bottom third in the bronze final. The finals consists
> of 
> > >5 
> > >> races. 
> > >> > In the total score all 10 races should be counted with one
> 
> > >discard. 
> > >> > 
> > >> > If each group has 50 sailors the results for a sailor in the
> 
> > >bronze 
> > >> > final could be something like 
> > >> > 38, (45), 40, 40, 27, 1, 30, 20, 5, 7 total of 208 
> > >> > 
> > >> > Any help appreciated. 
> > >> 
> > >> I think my problems boils down to the following: 
> > >> 
> > >> Create a series with one race and two competitors. 
> > >> Assign Place 2 to both of the competitors in R1. 
> > >> When scoring they will both get 1.0 points and 1.0 as nett. 
> > >> 
> > >> If it was possible to configure that Place 2 would score 2.0
> points 
> > >> regardless of how other competitors are placed I would be
> happy. 
> > >> Perhaps there is is such an option that I have missed ? 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> -!- <a
> href="http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/">http://www.yachtsandyachting
> .com/</a> -!- <a
> href="http://www.sailing.org/">http://www.sailing.org/</a> - 
> > >!- <a
> href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a> -!- 
> > >> 
> > >> Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files'
> 
> > >section at 
> > >> <a
> href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.co
> m/group/sailwave/</a> 
> > >> 
> > >> Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to: 
> > >> sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com 
> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links 
> > > 
> > > 
> > ></tt>
> > >
> > > 
> > ><tt>
> > >-!- <a
> href="http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/">http://www.yachtsandyachting
> .com/</a> -!- <a
> href="http://www.sailing.org/">http://www.sailing.org/</a> -!- <a
> href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a> -!- 
> > > 
> > >Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files'
> section at 
> > ><a
> href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.co
> m/group/sailwave/</a> 
> > > 
> > >Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to: 
> > >sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com</tt>
> > > 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > ><tt><hr width="500">
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links 
> > ><ul>
> > ><li>To visit your group on the web, go to: <a
> href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.co
> m/group/sailwave/</a> 
> > ><li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <a
> href="mailto:sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
> subject=Unsubscribe">sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a> 
> > ><li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
> href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
> > ></ul>
> > ></tt>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ></body></html>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > –
> > Martin B�lgen
> > 97517102/37251906
> > Grimstad seilforening
> > –

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/
-!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.5.0 - Release Date: 02/06/2005

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.5/32 - Release Date: 27/06/2005

RalphT · 29 June 2005 09:25

Hi Colin
Spent last week downloading results from Kiel so that I can develop some sample data & also test the
new flights system in SW.
I have also managed to get a copy of the SIs with a couple of interesting points re the finals:

POINTS
Gold fleet is simple low points system, Silver is low points plus points equal to number of Gold
competitors, Bronze is low points plus number of gold & silver competitors etc etc
I suspect that this is because their scoring system could not handle separate 'fleets' & they needed
to ensure that 1st in the next fleet was always higher points than last in the previous (higher) - I
will confirm this when I work through the results.
This comment is for interest only as SW should not need this as it can 'score by fleet'.

DISCARDS
The discard profiles (5-7 one disc, 8 & more two disc) are applied to the Qualifications & Finals
separately.
This is similar to Add C but easier to understand. I personally prefer this method as it is much
fairer & simpler.
I seem to remember that you have yet to deal with this issue in SW.

I feel a bit guilty that I have not tested SW re flights but I am in the process of packing & moving
house etc.
I plan to set up and input all the 49er results from Kiel (along with amendments etc) & then check
them against the published results
When everything is OK my objective is to create a set of csv files etc & a final blw file so that
they can be made available on the SW web site. IS THIS USEFUL FOR OTHERS???
Also, if I have time, I will try & produce the data for both 49er (2 groups) & Laser (4 groups)

In the meantime, monitoring Martin's comments with interest

Regards
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 29 June 2005 09:44
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals

Hi Jan et al,

So the proposal from Anders : "switch to lock the results in a race"
makes a lot of sense to me but of course I cannot judge what impact it
would have on the development work. Beeing in the sw business I know
that there are no easy changes, just a lot of unrealistic demands...

Version 1.72 can now handle seeding, qualifications and finals flight
(re)assignments.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of jan_vasternas
Sent: 02 June 2005 21:00
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals

Hi all !

Thanks for all the interest shown in this issue !
Try to answer questions from different posts in one.

Yes I have talked to Anders about it. It took a while before he
undertood all the finer details of the sailimg instructions but I
think he has got it know

I dont intend to score 2 sailors the second place without a winner in
a race. The situation occurs when ( as anders describes ) we select
all the "worst" sailors from each group of the qualification and put
them in the bronze final. Probably noone will have a 1st or 2nd from
the qualification races among these sailiors. Still they will be in
the same fleet so the current way that SW calulates score based om the
recorded position will in my experience produce an in this case
unwanted result.

In the gold group the problem is not so evident. If there are 3
sailors having 1st in the same race they will all get the score of 1.0
- no problem. The problem occurs further down at the bottom of the
gold group where the results are more spread out and even more so in
the silver and bronze group.

So the proposal from Anders : "switch to lock the results in a race"
makes a lot of sense to me but of course I cannot judge what impact it
would have on the development work. Beeing in the sw business I know
that there are no easy changes, just a lot of unrealistic demands...

/jan

> Hi Martin,
>
> yes I know that but…
>
> the results from round robin changes when scoring in the finals (!)
> The results from round robin must not change at all! ALL the results
> from round robin goes into the final as they were - there is no
> sequence in the first five races in the finals because some of the
> competitors did not meet each other in round robin.
>
> Anders
>
> — In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Martin B�lgen" <martin@s…> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Anders.
> >
> > I've tested in v.1.62-1.64.
> > If you do it the way I have described (first one file, then split
> into 3 files for the finals. It's "easy" to do with new
> tools/layouts), then you don't gets the result changes!
> >
> > Just set it up as a fleet race all the time. NO flights! And in
> the Qual. use score by field. Then you gets 3 1.st and so on.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> > From: "Anders Landenstad" <anders.landenstad@t…>
> > Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:10:57 -0000
> >
> > ><html><body>
> > >
> > >
> > ><tt>
> > >I have done a quick test and found out that we propably need a
> 
> > >switch to lock the results in a race, so when pressing "score"
> they 
> > >won't change. 
> > > 
> > >Short breifing … 
> > > 
> > >About 200 optimist boys will sail a round robin. they will be 
> > >divided into 3 groups (?) BLUE - GREEN - WHITE. After 5 races
> there 
> > >will be three lists of results BLUE - GREEN - WHITE. 
> > > 
> > >Now it's time for the finals. Each group will now be divided into
> 
> > >three new groups (?) GOLD - SILVER - BRONZE, so now 1/3 of blue,
> 
> > >green and white will be in the GOLD-final and so on. 
> > > 
> > >The results from round robin should go into the finals whith no
> 
> > >changes (!) - There was the switch! 
> > > 
> > >There will be lots of girls sailing too… 
> > > 
> > >The regatta starts the last week of june. 
> > > 
> > >Regards 
> > > 
> > >Anders Landenstad 
> > >Sweden 
> > > 
> > >— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@a…>
> wrote: 
> > >> Hi Jan 
> > >> Why would you want to allocate 2nd places without any 1sts?? 
> > >> You are going away from the basic principle of scoring 
> > >> Or do you mean race 1 in the finals? 
> > >> 
> > >> Your regatta is a difficult one to score automatically & I'm
> not 
> > >sure how to deal with it 
> > >> 
> > >> Regards 
> > >> Ralph 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> -----Original Message----- 
> > >> From: jan_vasternas [mailto:jv@c…] 
> > >> Sent: 01 June 2005 20:48 
> > >> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com 
> > >> Subject: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> — In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "jan_vasternas" <jv@c…>
> wrote: 
> > >> > What is the best way to use sailwave in the following
> situation ? 
> > >> > 
> > >> > The qualification part consists of 5 races with 1 discard and
> is 
> > >> > sailed in three groups. After this the top third of each
> group 
> > >sails 
> > >> > in the gold fleet the middle third of each group sails in the
> 
> > >silver 
> > >> > and the bottom third in the bronze final. The finals consists
> of 
> > >5 
> > >> races. 
> > >> > In the total score all 10 races should be counted with one
> 
> > >discard. 
> > >> > 
> > >> > If each group has 50 sailors the results for a sailor in the
> 
> > >bronze 
> > >> > final could be something like 
> > >> > 38, (45), 40, 40, 27, 1, 30, 20, 5, 7 total of 208 
> > >> > 
> > >> > Any help appreciated. 
> > >> 
> > >> I think my problems boils down to the following: 
> > >> 
> > >> Create a series with one race and two competitors. 
> > >> Assign Place 2 to both of the competitors in R1. 
> > >> When scoring they will both get 1.0 points and 1.0 as nett. 
> > >> 
> > >> If it was possible to configure that Place 2 would score 2.0
> points 
> > >> regardless of how other competitors are placed I would be
> happy. 
> > >> Perhaps there is is such an option that I have missed ? 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> -!- <a
> href="http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/">http://www.yachtsandyachting
> .com/</a> -!- <a
> href="http://www.sailing.org/">http://www.sailing.org/</a> - 
> > >!- <a
> href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a> -!- 
> > >> 
> > >> Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files'
> 
> > >section at 
> > >> <a
> href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.co
> m/group/sailwave/</a> 
> > >> 
> > >> Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to: 
> > >> sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com 
> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links 
> > > 
> > > 
> > ></tt>
> > >
> > > 
> > ><tt>
> > >-!- <a
> href="http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/">http://www.yachtsandyachting
> .com/</a> -!- <a
> href="http://www.sailing.org/">http://www.sailing.org/</a> -!- <a
> href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a> -!- 
> > > 
> > >Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files'
> section at 
> > ><a
> href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.co
> m/group/sailwave/</a> 
> > > 
> > >Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to: 
> > >sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com</tt>
> > > 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > ><tt><hr width="500">
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links 
> > ><ul>
> > ><li>To visit your group on the web, go to: <a
> href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.co
> m/group/sailwave/</a> 
> > ><li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <a
> href="mailto:sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
> subject=Unsubscribe">sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a> 
> > ><li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
> href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
> > ></ul>
> > ></tt>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ></body></html>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > –
> > Martin B�lgen
> > 97517102/37251906
> > Grimstad seilforening
> > –

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/
-!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.5.0 - Release Date: 02/06/2005

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.5/32 - Release Date: 27/06/2005

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links