[sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals

Martin_Bolgen · 29 June 2005 10:42

Hi, Ralph & Colin.

All this is useful to ME!

I'll maybe score the European Youth Championships 2005 (http://www.tonsbergseilforening.no/) later this summer. So, then I have the ability to really test SW.

Regards, Martin

···

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Ralph Tingle" <rat@attat.com>
Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:25:44 +0100

<html><body>

<tt>
Hi Colin 
Spent last week downloading results from Kiel so that I can develop some sample data & also test the 
new flights system in SW. 
I have also managed to get a copy of the SIs with a couple of interesting points re the finals: 
 
POINTS 
Gold fleet is simple low points system, Silver is low points plus points equal to number of Gold 
competitors, Bronze is low points plus number of gold & silver competitors etc etc 
I suspect that this is because their scoring system could not handle separate 'fleets' & they needed 
to ensure that 1st in the next fleet was always higher points than last in the previous (higher) - I 
will confirm this when I work through the results. 
This comment is for interest only as SW should not need this as it can 'score by fleet'. 
 
DISCARDS 
The discard profiles (5-7 one disc, 8 & more two disc) are applied to the Qualifications & Finals 
separately. 
This is similar to Add C but easier to understand. I personally prefer this method as it is much 
fairer & simpler. 
I seem to remember that you have yet to deal with this issue in SW. 
 
I feel a bit guilty that I have not tested SW re flights but I am in the process of packing & moving 
house etc. 
I plan to set up and input all the 49er results from Kiel (along with amendments etc) & then check 
them against the published results 
When everything is OK my objective is to create a set of csv files etc & a final blw file so that 
they can be made available on the SW web site. IS THIS USEFUL FOR OTHERS??? 
Also, if I have time, I will try & produce the data for both 49er (2 groups) & Laser (4 groups) 
 
In the meantime, monitoring Martin's comments with interest 
 
 
Regards 
Ralph 
 
 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com] 
Sent: 29 June 2005 09:44 
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals 
 
 
Hi Jan et al, 
 

So the proposal from Anders : "switch to lock the results in a race" 
makes a lot of sense to me but of course I cannot judge what impact it 
would have on the development work. Beeing in the sw business I know 
that there are no easy changes, just a lot of unrealistic demands... 

 
Version 1.72 can now handle seeding, qualifications and finals flight 
(re)assignments. 
 
Regards, 
Colin J 
www.sailwave.com 
 
 

-----Original Message----- 
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On 
Behalf Of jan_vasternas 
Sent: 02 June 2005 21:00 
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals 
 
 
Hi all ! 
 
Thanks for all the interest shown in this issue ! 
Try to answer questions from different posts in one. 
 
Yes I have talked to Anders about it. It took a while before he 
undertood all the finer details of the sailimg instructions but I 
think he has got it know :-) 
 
I dont intend to score 2 sailors the second place without a winner in 
a race. The situation occurs when ( as anders describes ) we select 
all the "worst" sailors from each group of the qualification and put 
them in the bronze final. Probably noone will have a 1st or 2nd from 
the qualification races among these sailiors. Still they will be in 
the same fleet so the current way that SW calulates score based om the 
recorded position will in my experience produce an in this case 
unwanted result. 
 
In the gold group the problem is not so evident. If there are 3 
sailors having 1st in the same race they will all get the score of 1.0 
- no problem. The problem occurs further down at the bottom of the 
gold group where the results are more spread out and even more so in 
the silver and bronze group. 
 
So the proposal from Anders : "switch to lock the results in a race" 
makes a lot of sense to me but of course I cannot judge what impact it 
would have on the development work. Beeing in the sw business I know 
that there are no easy changes, just a lot of unrealistic demands… 
 
/jan 
 
> Hi Martin, 
> 
> yes I know that but… 
> 
> the results from round robin changes when scoring in the finals (!) 
> The results from round robin must not change at all! ALL the results 
> from round robin goes into the final as they were - there is no 
> sequence in the first five races in the finals because some of the 
> competitors did not meet each other in round robin. 
> 
> Anders 
> 
> — In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Bølgen" <martin@s…> wrote: 
> > 
> > Hi, Anders. 
> > 
> > I've tested in v.1.62-1.64. 
> > If you do it the way I have described (first one file, then split 
> into 3 files for the finals. It's "easy" to do with new 
> tools/layouts), then you don't gets the result changes! 
> > 
> > Just set it up as a fleet race all the time. NO flights! And in 
> the Qual. use score by field. Then you gets 3 1.st and so on. 
> > 
> > Martin 
> > 
> > ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- 
> > From: "Anders Landenstad" <anders.landenstad@t…> 
> > Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com 
> > Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:10:57 -0000 
> > 
> > ><html><body> 
> > > 
> > > 
> > ><tt> 
> > >I have done a quick test and found out that we propably need a 
> 
> > >switch to lock the results in a race, so when pressing "score" 
> they 
> > >won't change. 
> > > 
> > >Short breifing … 
> > > 
> > >About 200 optimist boys will sail a round robin. they will be 
> > >divided into 3 groups (?) BLUE - GREEN - WHITE. After 5 races 
> there 
> > >will be three lists of results BLUE - GREEN - WHITE. 
> > > 
> > >Now it's time for the finals. Each group will now be divided into 
> 
> > >three new groups (?) GOLD - SILVER - BRONZE, so now 1/3 of blue, 
> 
> > >green and white will be in the GOLD-final and so on. 
> > > 
> > >The results from round robin should go into the finals whith no 
> 
> > >changes (!) - There was the switch! 
> > > 
> > >There will be lots of girls sailing too… 
> > > 
> > >The regatta starts the last week of june. 
> > > 
> > >Regards 
> > > 
> > >Anders Landenstad 
> > >Sweden 
> > > 
> > >— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@a…> 
> wrote: 
> > >> Hi Jan 
> > >> Why would you want to allocate 2nd places without any 1sts?? 
> > >> You are going away from the basic principle of scoring 
> > >> Or do you mean race 1 in the finals? 
> > >> 
> > >> Your regatta is a difficult one to score automatically & I'm 
> not 
> > >sure how to deal with it 
> > >> 
> > >> Regards 
> > >> Ralph 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> -----Original Message----- 
> > >> From: jan_vasternas [mailto:jv@c…] 
> > >> Sent: 01 June 2005 20:48 
> > >> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com 
> > >> Subject: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> — In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "jan_vasternas" <jv@c…> 
> wrote: 
> > >> > What is the best way to use sailwave in the following 
> situation ? 
> > >> > 
> > >> > The qualification part consists of 5 races with 1 discard and 
> is 
> > >> > sailed in three groups. After this the top third of each 
> group 
> > >sails 
> > >> > in the gold fleet the middle third of each group sails in the 
> 
> > >silver 
> > >> > and the bottom third in the bronze final. The finals consists 
> of 
> > >5 
> > >> races. 
> > >> > In the total score all 10 races should be counted with one 
> 
> > >discard. 
> > >> > 
> > >> > If each group has 50 sailors the results for a sailor in the 
> 
> > >bronze 
> > >> > final could be something like 
> > >> > 38, (45), 40, 40, 27, 1, 30, 20, 5, 7 total of 208 
> > >> > 
> > >> > Any help appreciated. 
> > >> 
> > >> I think my problems boils down to the following: 
> > >> 
> > >> Create a series with one race and two competitors. 
> > >> Assign Place 2 to both of the competitors in R1. 
> > >> When scoring they will both get 1.0 points and 1.0 as nett. 
> > >> 
> > >> If it was possible to configure that Place 2 would score 2.0 
> points 
> > >> regardless of how other competitors are placed I would be 
> happy. 
> > >> Perhaps there is is such an option that I have missed ? 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> -!- <a 
> href="<a href="http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/">http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/</a>"><a href="http://www.yachtsandyachting">http://www.yachtsandyachting</a> 
> .com/</a> -!- <a 
> href="<a href="http://www.sailing.org/">http://www.sailing.org/</a>"><a href="http://www.sailing.org/">http://www.sailing.org/</a></a> - 
> > >!- <a 
> href="<a href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a>"><a href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a></a> -!- 
> > >> 
> > >> Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' 
> 
> > >section at 
> > >> <a 
> href="<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/</a>"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.co">http://groups.yahoo.co</a> 
> m/group/sailwave/</a> 
> > >> 
> > >> Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to: 
> > >> sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com 
> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links 
> > > 
> > > 
> > ></tt> 
> > > 
> > > 
> > ><tt> 
> > >-!- <a 
> href="<a href="http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/">http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/</a>"><a href="http://www.yachtsandyachting">http://www.yachtsandyachting</a> 
> .com/</a> -!- <a 
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> href="<a href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a>"><a href="http://www.sailwave.com/">http://www.sailwave.com/</a></a> -!- 
> > > 
> > >Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' 
> section at 
> > ><a 
> href="<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/</a>"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.co">http://groups.yahoo.co</a> 
> m/group/sailwave/</a> 
> > > 
> > >Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to: 
> > >sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com</tt> 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > ><tt><hr width="500"> 
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links 
> > ><ul> 
> > ><li>To visit your group on the web, go to: <a 
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> > 
> > -- 
> > Martin Bølgen 
> > 97517102/37251906 
> > Grimstad seilforening 
> > -- 
 
 
 
 
 
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</body></html>

--
Martin Bølgen
97517102/37251906
Grimstad seilforening
--

ColinJenkins · 29 June 2005 10:50

All this is useful to ME!

I'll maybe score the European Youth Championships 2005
(http://www.tonsbergseilforening.no/) later this summer. So, then
I have the ability to really test SW.

I think I may be away ...

CJ

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Martin B�lgen
Sent: 29 June 2005 11:42
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals

Hi, Ralph & Colin.

All this is useful to ME!

I'll maybe score the European Youth Championships 2005
(http://www.tonsbergseilforening.no/) later this summer. So, then
I have the ability to really test SW.

Regards, Martin

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Ralph Tingle" <rat@attat.com>
Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:25:44 +0100

><html><body>
>
>
><tt>
>Hi Colin 
>Spent last week downloading results from Kiel so that I can
develop some sample data & also test the 
>new flights system in SW. 
>I have also managed to get a copy of the SIs with a couple of
interesting points re the finals: 
> 
>POINTS 
>Gold fleet is simple low points system, Silver is low points
plus points equal to number of Gold 
>competitors, Bronze is low points plus number of gold & silver
competitors etc etc 
>I suspect that this is because their scoring system could not
handle separate 'fleets' & they needed 
>to ensure that 1st in the next fleet was always higher points
than last in the previous (higher) - I 
>will confirm this when I work through the results. 
>This comment is for interest only as SW should not need this as
it can 'score by fleet'. 
> 
>DISCARDS 
>The discard profiles (5-7 one disc, 8 & more two disc) are
applied to the Qualifications & Finals 
>separately. 
>This is similar to Add C but easier to understand. I personally
prefer this method as it is much 
>fairer & simpler. 
>I seem to remember that you have yet to deal with this issue in SW. 
> 
>I feel a bit guilty that I have not tested SW re flights but I
am in the process of packing & moving 
>house etc. 
>I plan to set up and input all the 49er results from Kiel (along
with amendments etc) & then check 
>them against the published results 
>When everything is OK my objective is to create a set of csv
files etc & a final blw file so that 
>they can be made available on the SW web site. IS THIS USEFUL
FOR OTHERS??? 
>Also, if I have time, I will try & produce the data for both
49er (2 groups) & Laser (4 groups) 
> 
>In the meantime, monitoring Martin's comments with interest 
> 
> 
>Regards 
>Ralph 
> 
> 
> 
>-----Original Message----- 
>From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com] 
>Sent: 29 June 2005 09:44 
>To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com 
>Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals 
> 
> 
>Hi Jan et al, 
> 
>> So the proposal from Anders : "switch to lock the results in a
race" 
>> makes a lot of sense to me but of course I cannot judge what
impact it 
>> would have on the development work. Beeing in the sw business
I know 
>> that there are no easy changes, just a lot of unrealistic
demands… 
> 
>Version 1.72 can now handle seeding, qualifications and finals flight 
>(re)assignments. 
> 
>Regards, 
>Colin J 
>www.sailwave.com 
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message----- 
>> From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On 
>> Behalf Of jan_vasternas 
>> Sent: 02 June 2005 21:00 
>> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com 
>> Subject: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi all ! 
>> 
>> Thanks for all the interest shown in this issue ! 
>> Try to answer questions from different posts in one. 
>> 
>> Yes I have talked to Anders about it. It took a while before he 
>> undertood all the finer details of the sailimg instructions but I 
>> think he has got it know :-) 
>> 
>> I dont intend to score 2 sailors the second place without a
winner in 
>> a race. The situation occurs when ( as anders describes ) we select 
>> all the "worst" sailors from each group of the qualification
and put 
>> them in the bronze final. Probably noone will have a 1st or
2nd from 
>> the qualification races among these sailiors. Still they will be in 
>> the same fleet so the current way that SW calulates score
based om the 
>> recorded position will in my experience produce an in this case 
>> unwanted result. 
>> 
>> In the gold group the problem is not so evident. If there are 3 
>> sailors having 1st in the same race they will all get the
score of 1.0 
>> - no problem. The problem occurs further down at the bottom of the 
>> gold group where the results are more spread out and even more
so in 
>> the silver and bronze group. 
>> 
>> So the proposal from Anders : "switch to lock the results in a
race" 
>> makes a lot of sense to me but of course I cannot judge what
impact it 
>> would have on the development work. Beeing in the sw business
I know 
>> that there are no easy changes, just a lot of unrealistic
demands… 
>> 
>> /jan 
>> 
>> > Hi Martin, 
>> > 
>> > yes I know that but… 
>> > 
>> > the results from round robin changes when scoring in the
finals (!) 
>> > The results from round robin must not change at all! ALL the
results 
>> > from round robin goes into the final as they were - there is no 
>> > sequence in the first five races in the finals because some
of the 
>> > competitors did not meet each other in round robin. 
>> > 
>> > Anders 
>> > 
>> > — In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Martin B�lgen"
<martin@s…> wrote: 
>> > > 
>> > > Hi, Anders. 
>> > > 
>> > > I've tested in v.1.62-1.64. 
>> > > If you do it the way I have described (first one file,
then split 
>> > into 3 files for the finals. It's "easy" to do with new 
>> > tools/layouts), then you don't gets the result changes! 
>> > > 
>> > > Just set it up as a fleet race all the time. NO flights! And in 
>> > the Qual. use score by field. Then you gets 3 1.st and so on. 
>> > > 
>> > > Martin 
>> > > 
>> > > ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- 
>> > > From: "Anders Landenstad" <anders.landenstad@t…> 
>> > > Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com 
>> > > Date:� Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:10:57 -0000 
>> > > 
>> > > ><html><body> 
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > ><tt> 
>> > > >I have done a quick test and found out that we propably need a 
>> > 
>> > > >switch to lock the results in a race, so when pressing "score" 
>> > they 
>> > > >won't change. 
>> > > > 
>> > > >Short breifing … 
>> > > > 
>> > > >About 200 optimist boys will sail a round robin. they
will be 
>> > > >divided into 3 groups (?) BLUE - GREEN - WHITE. After 5 races 
>> > there 
>> > > >will be three lists of results BLUE - GREEN - WHITE. 
>> > > > 
>> > > >Now it's time for the finals. Each group will now be
divided into 
>> > 
>> > > >three new groups (?) GOLD - SILVER - BRONZE, so now 1/3
of blue, 
>> > 
>> > > >green and white will be in the GOLD-final and so on. 
>> > > > 
>> > > >The results from round robin should go into the finals
whith no 
>> > 
>> > > >changes (!) - There was the switch! 
>> > > > 
>> > > >There will be lots of girls sailing too… 
>> > > > 
>> > > >The regatta starts the last week of june. 
>> > > > 
>> > > >Regards 
>> > > > 
>> > > >Anders Landenstad 
>> > > >Sweden 
>> > > > 
>> > > >— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@a…> 
>> > wrote: 
>> > > >> Hi Jan 
>> > > >> Why would you want to allocate 2nd places without any
1sts?? 
>> > > >> You are going away from the basic principle of scoring 
>> > > >> Or do you mean race 1 in the finals? 
>> > > >> 
>> > > >> Your regatta is a difficult one to score automatically & I'm 
>> > not 
>> > > >sure how to deal with it 
>> > > >> 
>> > > >> Regards 
>> > > >> Ralph 
>> > > >>� 
>> > > >> 
>> > > >> 
>> > > >> -----Original Message----- 
>> > > >> From: jan_vasternas [mailto:jv@c…] 
>> > > >> Sent: 01 June 2005 20:48 
>> > > >> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com 
>> > > >> Subject: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals 
>> > > >> 
>> > > >> 
>> > > >> — In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "jan_vasternas" <jv@c…> 
>> > wrote: 
>> > > >> > What is the best way to use sailwave in the following 
>> > situation ? 
>> > > >> > 
>> > > >> > The qualification part consists of 5 races with 1
discard and 
>> > is 
>> > > >> > sailed in three groups. After this the top third of each 
>> > group 
>> > > >sails 
>> > > >> > in the gold fleet the middle third of each group
sails in the 
>> > 
>> > > >silver 
>> > > >> > and the bottom third in the bronze final. The finals
consists 
>> > of 
>> > > >5 
>> > > >> races. 
>> > > >> > In the total score all 10 races should be counted with one 
>> > 
>> > > >discard. 
>> > > >> > 
>> > > >> > If each group has 50 sailors the results for a sailor
in the 
>> > 
>> > > >bronze 
>> > > >> > final could be something like 
>> > > >> > 38, (45), 40, 40, 27, 1, 30, 20, 5, 7� total of 208 
>> > > >> > 
>> > > >> > Any help appreciated. 
>> > > >> 
>> > > >> I think my problems boils down to the following: 
>> > > >> 
>> > > >> Create a series with one race and two competitors. 
>> > > >> Assign Place 2 to both of the competitors in R1. 
>> > > >> When scoring they will both get 1.0 points and 1.0 as
nett. 
>> > > >> 
>> > > >> If it was possible to configure that Place 2 would score 2.0 
>> > points 
>> > > >> regardless of how other competitors are placed I would be 
>> > happy. 
>> > > >> Perhaps there is is such an option that I have missed ? 
>> > > >> 
>> > > >> 
>> > > >> 
>> > > >> 
>> > > >> 
>> > > >> -!- <a 
>> > href="<a
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Grimstad seilforening
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RalphT · 29 June 2005 13:24

OK Martin

Just wanted to make sure that I was not wasting my time

Regards
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin B�lgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 29 June 2005 11:42
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals

Hi, Ralph & Colin.

All this is useful to ME!

I'll maybe score the European Youth Championships 2005 (http://www.tonsbergseilforening.no/) later
this summer. So, then I have the ability to really test SW.

Regards, Martin