[sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals

Hi, Ralph & Colin.

All this is useful to ME!

I'll maybe score the European Youth Championships 2005 (http://www.tonsbergseilforening.no/) later this summer. So, then I have the ability to really test SW.

Regards, Martin

···

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Ralph Tingle" <rat@attat.com>
Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:25:44 +0100

<html><body>

<tt>
Hi Colin<BR>
Spent last week downloading results from Kiel so that I can develop some sample data & also test the<BR>
new flights system in SW.<BR>
I have also managed to get a copy of the SIs with a couple of interesting points re the finals:<BR>
<BR>
POINTS<BR>
Gold fleet is simple low points system, Silver is low points plus points equal to number of Gold<BR>
competitors, Bronze is low points plus number of gold & silver competitors etc etc<BR>
I suspect that this is because their scoring system could not handle separate 'fleets' & they needed<BR>
to ensure that 1st in the next fleet was always higher points than last in the previous (higher) - I<BR>
will confirm this when I work through the results.<BR>
This comment is for interest only as SW should not need this as it can 'score by fleet'.<BR>
<BR>
DISCARDS<BR>
The discard profiles (5-7 one disc, 8 & more two disc) are applied to the Qualifications & Finals<BR>
separately.<BR>
This is similar to Add C but easier to understand. I personally prefer this method as it is much<BR>
fairer & simpler.<BR>
I seem to remember that you have yet to deal with this issue in SW.<BR>
<BR>
I feel a bit guilty that I have not tested SW re flights but I am in the process of packing & moving<BR>
house etc.<BR>
I plan to set up and input all the 49er results from Kiel (along with amendments etc) & then check<BR>
them against the published results<BR>
When everything is OK my objective is to create a set of csv files etc & a final blw file so that<BR>
they can be made available on the SW web site. IS THIS USEFUL FOR OTHERS???<BR>
Also, if I have time, I will try & produce the data for both 49er (2 groups) & Laser (4 groups)<BR>
<BR>
In the meantime, monitoring Martin's comments with interest<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards<BR>
Ralph<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]<BR>
Sent: 29 June 2005 09:44<BR>
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com<BR>
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hi Jan et al,<BR>
<BR>

So the proposal from Anders : "switch to lock the results in a race"<BR>
makes a lot of sense to me but of course I cannot judge what impact it<BR>
would have on the development work. Beeing in the sw business I know<BR>
that there are no easy changes, just a lot of unrealistic demands...<BR>

<BR>
Version 1.72 can now handle seeding, qualifications and finals flight<BR>
(re)assignments.<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
Colin J<BR>
www.sailwave.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>

-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On<BR>
Behalf Of jan_vasternas<BR>
Sent: 02 June 2005 21:00<BR>
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com<BR>
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hi all !<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for all the interest shown in this issue !<BR>
Try to answer questions from different posts in one.<BR>
<BR>
Yes I have talked to Anders about it. It took a while before he<BR>
undertood all the finer details of the sailimg instructions but I<BR>
think he has got it know :-)<BR>
<BR>
I dont intend to score 2 sailors the second place without a winner in<BR>
a race. The situation occurs when ( as anders describes ) we select<BR>
all the "worst" sailors from each group of the qualification and put<BR>
them in the bronze final. Probably noone will have a 1st or 2nd from<BR>
the qualification races among these sailiors. Still they will be in<BR>
the same fleet so the current way that SW calulates score based om the<BR>
recorded position will in my experience produce an in this case<BR>
unwanted result.<BR>
<BR>
In the gold group the problem is not so evident. If there are 3<BR>
sailors having 1st in the same race they will all get the score of 1.0<BR>
- no problem. The problem occurs further down at the bottom of the<BR>
gold group where the results are more spread out and even more so in<BR>
the silver and bronze group.<BR>
<BR>
So the proposal from Anders : "switch to lock the results in a race"<BR>
makes a lot of sense to me but of course I cannot judge what impact it<BR>
would have on the development work. Beeing in the sw business I know<BR>
that there are no easy changes, just a lot of unrealistic demands…<BR>
<BR>
/jan<BR>
<BR>
> Hi Martin,<BR>
><BR>
> yes I know that but…<BR>
><BR>
> the results from round robin changes when scoring in the finals (!)<BR>
> The results from round robin must not change at all! ALL the results<BR>
> from round robin goes into the final as they were - there is no<BR>
> sequence in the first five races in the finals because some of the<BR>
> competitors did not meet each other in round robin.<BR>
><BR>
> Anders<BR>
><BR>
> — In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Bølgen" <martin@s…> wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Hi, Anders.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I've tested in v.1.62-1.64.<BR>
> > If you do it the way I have described (first one file, then split<BR>
> into 3 files for the finals. It's "easy" to do with new<BR>
> tools/layouts), then you don't gets the result changes!<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Just set it up as a fleet race all the time. NO flights! And in<BR>
> the Qual. use score by field. Then you gets 3 1.st and so on.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Martin<BR>
> ><BR>
> > ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------<BR>
> > From: "Anders Landenstad" <anders.landenstad@t…><BR>
> > Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com<BR>
> > Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:10:57 -0000<BR>
> ><BR>
> > ><html><body><BR>
> > ><BR>
> > ><BR>
> > ><tt><BR>
> > >I have done a quick test and found out that we propably need a<BR>
> <BR><BR>
> > >switch to lock the results in a race, so when pressing "score"<BR>
> they <BR><BR>
> > >won't change.<BR><BR>
> > ><BR><BR>
> > >Short breifing …<BR><BR>
> > ><BR><BR>
> > >About 200 optimist boys will sail a round robin. they will be <BR><BR>
> > >divided into 3 groups (?) BLUE - GREEN - WHITE. After 5 races<BR>
> there <BR><BR>
> > >will be three lists of results BLUE - GREEN - WHITE.<BR><BR>
> > ><BR><BR>
> > >Now it's time for the finals. Each group will now be divided into<BR>
> <BR><BR>
> > >three new groups (?) GOLD - SILVER - BRONZE, so now 1/3 of blue,<BR>
> <BR><BR>
> > >green and white will be in the GOLD-final and so on.<BR><BR>
> > ><BR><BR>
> > >The results from round robin should go into the finals whith no<BR>
> <BR><BR>
> > >changes (!) - There was the switch!<BR><BR>
> > ><BR><BR>
> > >There will be lots of girls sailing too… <BR><BR>
> > ><BR><BR>
> > >The regatta starts the last week of june.<BR><BR>
> > ><BR><BR>
> > >Regards<BR><BR>
> > ><BR><BR>
> > >Anders Landenstad<BR><BR>
> > >Sweden<BR><BR>
> > ><BR><BR>
> > >— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@a…><BR>
> wrote:<BR><BR>
> > >> Hi Jan<BR><BR>
> > >> Why would you want to allocate 2nd places without any 1sts??<BR><BR>
> > >> You are going away from the basic principle of scoring<BR><BR>
> > >> Or do you mean race 1 in the finals?<BR><BR>
> > >> <BR><BR>
> > >> Your regatta is a difficult one to score automatically & I'm<BR>
> not <BR><BR>
> > >sure how to deal with it<BR><BR>
> > >> <BR><BR>
> > >> Regards<BR><BR>
> > >> Ralph<BR><BR>
> > >> <BR><BR>
> > >> <BR><BR>
> > >> <BR><BR>
> > >> -----Original Message-----<BR><BR>
> > >> From: jan_vasternas [mailto:jv@c…]<BR><BR>
> > >> Sent: 01 June 2005 20:48<BR><BR>
> > >> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com<BR><BR>
> > >> Subject: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals<BR><BR>
> > >> <BR><BR>
> > >> <BR><BR>
> > >> — In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "jan_vasternas" <jv@c…><BR>
> wrote:<BR><BR>
> > >> > What is the best way to use sailwave in the following<BR>
> situation ?<BR><BR>
> > >> > <BR><BR>
> > >> > The qualification part consists of 5 races with 1 discard and<BR>
> is<BR><BR>
> > >> > sailed in three groups. After this the top third of each<BR>
> group <BR><BR>
> > >sails<BR><BR>
> > >> > in the gold fleet the middle third of each group sails in the<BR>
> <BR><BR>
> > >silver<BR><BR>
> > >> > and the bottom third in the bronze final. The finals consists<BR>
> of <BR><BR>
> > >5<BR><BR>
> > >> races.<BR><BR>
> > >> > In the total score all 10 races should be counted with one<BR>
> <BR><BR>
> > >discard.<BR><BR>
> > >> > <BR><BR>
> > >> > If each group has 50 sailors the results for a sailor in the<BR>
> <BR><BR>
> > >bronze<BR><BR>
> > >> > final could be something like<BR><BR>
> > >> > 38, (45), 40, 40, 27, 1, 30, 20, 5, 7 total of 208<BR><BR>
> > >> > <BR><BR>
> > >> > Any help appreciated.<BR><BR>
> > >> <BR><BR>
> > >> I think my problems boils down to the following:<BR><BR>
> > >> <BR><BR>
> > >> Create a series with one race and two competitors.<BR><BR>
> > >> Assign Place 2 to both of the competitors in R1.<BR><BR>
> > >> When scoring they will both get 1.0 points and 1.0 as nett.<BR><BR>
> > >> <BR><BR>
> > >> If it was possible to configure that Place 2 would score 2.0<BR>
> points<BR><BR>
> > >> regardless of how other competitors are placed I would be<BR>
> happy. <BR><BR>
> > >> Perhaps there is is such an option that I have missed ?<BR><BR>
> > >> <BR><BR>
> > >> <BR><BR>
> > >> <BR><BR>
> > >> <BR><BR>
> > >> <BR><BR>
> > >> -!- <a<BR>
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> > Martin Bølgen<BR>
> > 97517102/37251906<BR>
> > Grimstad seilforening<BR>
> > --<BR>
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--
Martin Bølgen
97517102/37251906
Grimstad seilforening
--

All this is useful to ME!

I'll maybe score the European Youth Championships 2005
(http://www.tonsbergseilforening.no/) later this summer. So, then
I have the ability to really test SW.

I think I may be away ... :slight_smile:

CJ

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Martin B�lgen
Sent: 29 June 2005 11:42
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals

Hi, Ralph & Colin.

All this is useful to ME!

I'll maybe score the European Youth Championships 2005
(http://www.tonsbergseilforening.no/) later this summer. So, then
I have the ability to really test SW.

Regards, Martin

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Ralph Tingle" <rat@attat.com>
Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:25:44 +0100

><html><body>
>
>
><tt>
>Hi Colin<BR>
>Spent last week downloading results from Kiel so that I can
develop some sample data & also test the<BR>
>new flights system in SW.<BR>
>I have also managed to get a copy of the SIs with a couple of
interesting points re the finals:<BR>
><BR>
>POINTS<BR>
>Gold fleet is simple low points system, Silver is low points
plus points equal to number of Gold<BR>
>competitors, Bronze is low points plus number of gold & silver
competitors etc etc<BR>
>I suspect that this is because their scoring system could not
handle separate 'fleets' & they needed<BR>
>to ensure that 1st in the next fleet was always higher points
than last in the previous (higher) - I<BR>
>will confirm this when I work through the results.<BR>
>This comment is for interest only as SW should not need this as
it can 'score by fleet'.<BR>
><BR>
>DISCARDS<BR>
>The discard profiles (5-7 one disc, 8 & more two disc) are
applied to the Qualifications & Finals<BR>
>separately.<BR>
>This is similar to Add C but easier to understand. I personally
prefer this method as it is much<BR>
>fairer & simpler.<BR>
>I seem to remember that you have yet to deal with this issue in SW.<BR>
><BR>
>I feel a bit guilty that I have not tested SW re flights but I
am in the process of packing & moving<BR>
>house etc.<BR>
>I plan to set up and input all the 49er results from Kiel (along
with amendments etc) & then check<BR>
>them against the published results<BR>
>When everything is OK my objective is to create a set of csv
files etc & a final blw file so that<BR>
>they can be made available on the SW web site. IS THIS USEFUL
FOR OTHERS???<BR>
>Also, if I have time, I will try & produce the data for both
49er (2 groups) & Laser (4 groups)<BR>
><BR>
>In the meantime, monitoring Martin's comments with interest<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Regards<BR>
>Ralph<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>-----Original Message-----<BR>
>From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]<BR>
>Sent: 29 June 2005 09:44<BR>
>To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com<BR>
>Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Hi Jan et al,<BR>
><BR>
>> So the proposal from Anders : "switch to lock the results in a
race"<BR>
>> makes a lot of sense to me but of course I cannot judge what
impact it<BR>
>> would have on the development work. Beeing in the sw business
I know<BR>
>> that there are no easy changes, just a lot of unrealistic
demands…<BR>
><BR>
>Version 1.72 can now handle seeding, qualifications and finals flight<BR>
>(re)assignments.<BR>
><BR>
>Regards,<BR>
>Colin J<BR>
>www.sailwave.com<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>> -----Original Message-----<BR>
>> From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On<BR>
>> Behalf Of jan_vasternas<BR>
>> Sent: 02 June 2005 21:00<BR>
>> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com<BR>
>> Subject: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>> Hi all !<BR>
>><BR>
>> Thanks for all the interest shown in this issue !<BR>
>> Try to answer questions from different posts in one.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Yes I have talked to Anders about it. It took a while before he<BR>
>> undertood all the finer details of the sailimg instructions but I<BR>
>> think he has got it know :-)<BR>
>><BR>
>> I dont intend to score 2 sailors the second place without a
winner in<BR>
>> a race. The situation occurs when ( as anders describes ) we select<BR>
>> all the "worst" sailors from each group of the qualification
and put<BR>
>> them in the bronze final. Probably noone will have a 1st or
2nd from<BR>
>> the qualification races among these sailiors. Still they will be in<BR>
>> the same fleet so the current way that SW calulates score
based om the<BR>
>> recorded position will in my experience produce an in this case<BR>
>> unwanted result.<BR>
>><BR>
>> In the gold group the problem is not so evident. If there are 3<BR>
>> sailors having 1st in the same race they will all get the
score of 1.0<BR>
>> - no problem. The problem occurs further down at the bottom of the<BR>
>> gold group where the results are more spread out and even more
so in<BR>
>> the silver and bronze group.<BR>
>><BR>
>> So the proposal from Anders : "switch to lock the results in a
race"<BR>
>> makes a lot of sense to me but of course I cannot judge what
impact it<BR>
>> would have on the development work. Beeing in the sw business
I know<BR>
>> that there are no easy changes, just a lot of unrealistic
demands…<BR>
>><BR>
>> /jan<BR>
>><BR>
>> > Hi Martin,<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > yes I know that but…<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > the results from round robin changes when scoring in the
finals (!)<BR>
>> > The results from round robin must not change at all! ALL the
results<BR>
>> > from round robin goes into the final as they were - there is no<BR>
>> > sequence in the first five races in the finals because some
of the<BR>
>> > competitors did not meet each other in round robin.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > Anders<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > — In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Martin B�lgen"
<martin@s…> wrote:<BR>
>> > ><BR>
>> > > Hi, Anders.<BR>
>> > ><BR>
>> > > I've tested in v.1.62-1.64.<BR>
>> > > If you do it the way I have described (first one file,
then split<BR>
>> > into 3 files for the finals. It's "easy" to do with new<BR>
>> > tools/layouts), then you don't gets the result changes!<BR>
>> > ><BR>
>> > > Just set it up as a fleet race all the time. NO flights! And in<BR>
>> > the Qual. use score by field. Then you gets 3 1.st and so on.<BR>
>> > ><BR>
>> > > Martin<BR>
>> > ><BR>
>> > > ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------<BR>
>> > > From: "Anders Landenstad" <anders.landenstad@t…><BR>
>> > > Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com<BR>
>> > > Date:� Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:10:57 -0000<BR>
>> > ><BR>
>> > > ><html><body><BR>
>> > > ><BR>
>> > > ><BR>
>> > > ><tt><BR>
>> > > >I have done a quick test and found out that we propably need a<BR>
>> > <BR><BR>
>> > > >switch to lock the results in a race, so when pressing "score"<BR>
>> > they <BR><BR>
>> > > >won't change.<BR><BR>
>> > > ><BR><BR>
>> > > >Short breifing …<BR><BR>
>> > > ><BR><BR>
>> > > >About 200 optimist boys will sail a round robin. they
will be <BR><BR>
>> > > >divided into 3 groups (?) BLUE - GREEN - WHITE. After 5 races<BR>
>> > there <BR><BR>
>> > > >will be three lists of results BLUE - GREEN - WHITE.<BR><BR>
>> > > ><BR><BR>
>> > > >Now it's time for the finals. Each group will now be
divided into<BR>
>> > <BR><BR>
>> > > >three new groups (?) GOLD - SILVER - BRONZE, so now 1/3
of blue,<BR>
>> > <BR><BR>
>> > > >green and white will be in the GOLD-final and so on.<BR><BR>
>> > > ><BR><BR>
>> > > >The results from round robin should go into the finals
whith no<BR>
>> > <BR><BR>
>> > > >changes (!) - There was the switch!<BR><BR>
>> > > ><BR><BR>
>> > > >There will be lots of girls sailing too… <BR><BR>
>> > > ><BR><BR>
>> > > >The regatta starts the last week of june.<BR><BR>
>> > > ><BR><BR>
>> > > >Regards<BR><BR>
>> > > ><BR><BR>
>> > > >Anders Landenstad<BR><BR>
>> > > >Sweden<BR><BR>
>> > > ><BR><BR>
>> > > >— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@a…><BR>
>> > wrote:<BR><BR>
>> > > >> Hi Jan<BR><BR>
>> > > >> Why would you want to allocate 2nd places without any
1sts??<BR><BR>
>> > > >> You are going away from the basic principle of scoring<BR><BR>
>> > > >> Or do you mean race 1 in the finals?<BR><BR>
>> > > >> <BR><BR>
>> > > >> Your regatta is a difficult one to score automatically & I'm<BR>
>> > not <BR><BR>
>> > > >sure how to deal with it<BR><BR>
>> > > >> <BR><BR>
>> > > >> Regards<BR><BR>
>> > > >> Ralph<BR><BR>
>> > > >>� <BR><BR>
>> > > >> <BR><BR>
>> > > >> <BR><BR>
>> > > >> -----Original Message-----<BR><BR>
>> > > >> From: jan_vasternas [mailto:jv@c…]<BR><BR>
>> > > >> Sent: 01 June 2005 20:48<BR><BR>
>> > > >> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com<BR><BR>
>> > > >> Subject: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals<BR><BR>
>> > > >> <BR><BR>
>> > > >> <BR><BR>
>> > > >> — In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "jan_vasternas" <jv@c…><BR>
>> > wrote:<BR><BR>
>> > > >> > What is the best way to use sailwave in the following<BR>
>> > situation ?<BR><BR>
>> > > >> > <BR><BR>
>> > > >> > The qualification part consists of 5 races with 1
discard and<BR>
>> > is<BR><BR>
>> > > >> > sailed in three groups. After this the top third of each<BR>
>> > group <BR><BR>
>> > > >sails<BR><BR>
>> > > >> > in the gold fleet the middle third of each group
sails in the<BR>
>> > <BR><BR>
>> > > >silver<BR><BR>
>> > > >> > and the bottom third in the bronze final. The finals
consists<BR>
>> > of <BR><BR>
>> > > >5<BR><BR>
>> > > >> races.<BR><BR>
>> > > >> > In the total score all 10 races should be counted with one<BR>
>> > <BR><BR>
>> > > >discard.<BR><BR>
>> > > >> > <BR><BR>
>> > > >> > If each group has 50 sailors the results for a sailor
in the<BR>
>> > <BR><BR>
>> > > >bronze<BR><BR>
>> > > >> > final could be something like<BR><BR>
>> > > >> > 38, (45), 40, 40, 27, 1, 30, 20, 5, 7� total of 208<BR><BR>
>> > > >> > <BR><BR>
>> > > >> > Any help appreciated.<BR><BR>
>> > > >> <BR><BR>
>> > > >> I think my problems boils down to the following:<BR><BR>
>> > > >> <BR><BR>
>> > > >> Create a series with one race and two competitors.<BR><BR>
>> > > >> Assign Place 2 to both of the competitors in R1.<BR><BR>
>> > > >> When scoring they will both get 1.0 points and 1.0 as
nett.<BR><BR>
>> > > >> <BR><BR>
>> > > >> If it was possible to configure that Place 2 would score 2.0<BR>
>> > points<BR><BR>
>> > > >> regardless of how other competitors are placed I would be<BR>
>> > happy. <BR><BR>
>> > > >> Perhaps there is is such an option that I have missed ?<BR><BR>
>> > > >> <BR><BR>
>> > > >> <BR><BR>
>> > > >> <BR><BR>
>> > > >> <BR><BR>
>> > > >> <BR><BR>
>> > > >> -!- <a<BR>
>> > href="<a
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>> > > >!- <a<BR>
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>> > > --<BR>
>> > > Martin B�lgen<BR>
>> > > 97517102/37251906<BR>
>> > > Grimstad seilforening<BR>
>> > > --<BR>
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OK Martin

Just wanted to make sure that I was not wasting my time

Regards
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin B�lgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 29 June 2005 11:42
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Qualifications and finals

Hi, Ralph & Colin.

All this is useful to ME!

I'll maybe score the European Youth Championships 2005 (http://www.tonsbergseilforening.no/) later
this summer. So, then I have the ability to really test SW.

Regards, Martin