[sailwave] Redress Scoring

Imported from Yahoo
1

Art,

As I have seen A6.2 interpreted the redress boat shares its assigned position with the boat who finished in that position and the scores of remaining boats are not altered. In this case rank and score are treated as the same thing. The race in question is part of a series and moving the boat with two points to a third place can have significant effects. Strikes me that if the A6.2 option is selected under scoring codes that the boats should rank 1,1,2 . . .

I guess part of the problem is that the term “rank” is not defined under the rules at least that I know of.

Dicki

2

Don’t confuse “rank” with “score”

Ian.

···

On 16 July 2011 14:19, Dick (Comcast) dallsopp@comcast.net wrote:

Art,

As I have seen A6.2 interpreted the redress boat shares its assigned position with the boat who finished in that position and the scores of remaining boats are not altered. In this case rank and score are treated as the same thing. The race in question is part of a series and moving the boat with two points to a third place can have significant effects. Strikes me that if the A6.2 option is selected under scoring codes that the boats should rank 1,1,2 . . .

I guess part of the problem is that the term “rank” is not defined under the rules at least that I know of.

Dicki

3

Ian,

I am certain that is what I am doing. I wonder if I can impose on you to provide me with proper definitions of a boat’s “rank”; “score”; and “position.” Much appreciated.

Dick Allsopp

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ian Savell
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 16:23
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Redress Scoring

Don’t confuse “rank” with “score”

Ian.

On 16 July 2011 14:19, Dick (Comcast) dallsopp@comcast.net wrote:

Art,

As I have seen A6.2 interpreted the redress boat shares its assigned position with the boat who finished in that position and the scores of remaining boats are not altered. In this case rank and score are treated as the same thing. The race in question is part of a series and moving the boat with two points to a third place can have significant effects. Strikes me that if the A6.2 option is selected under scoring codes that the boats should rank 1,1,2 . . .

I guess part of the problem is that the term “rank” is not defined under the rules at least that I know of.

Dicki

4

Legally, any term not expressly defined in the rules is taken to have it’s conventional meaning within the context of the rules. Based on context of words in ISAF Appendix A:
Position, which ISAF generally call Place, is the boats finishing order in a race, ie the first boat to finish is place 1. It is essentially a statement of fact, though disqualifications and late retirements do change places. Your redress boat was not finished so doesn’t get a place, any more than a DNF or DNC boat would. See for example A4.1
Score is whatever numerical points a boat is assigned for a particular race, usually 1 for the first boat, 2 for the second etc under the Appendix A “low points” system but could be different under other scoring systems. Boats may be allocated scores not related to place, such as DNF. DNC etc. Your redress boat scores 1, because it was allocated that score by the protest committee under the appropriate ISAF rule. You refer to “allocated position” but the protest committee should allocate a score. See A5, A6.
Rank, conventionally and in Sailwave, is where a boat lies in a race or series based on a simple ordering of the scores (excluding discards), so with three boats having scores 1, 1, 2, they will rank 1, 1, 3 as the first two boats rank equally, neither having any boats with lower scores, and the third boat having two boats with lower scores ranks third. See A2 for a mention of Rank.

In a single “normal” race with no untoward events, position, score and rank are numerically the same. But they are not always so.

I don’t know off the top of my head what should be done in a single trophy race where a grant of redress is to determine the destination of the trophy. ISAF say you can’t change the score of the boat that “finished” in position 1 and scored 1 so if you give a score of 1 as redress you have a tie - maybe not what was intended. I feel the protest committee/race committee should determine who should get the trophy - after all they are aiming to redress their error and had they not erred the trophy would have been awarded to the redress boat. Perhaps they should award a score of 0 points - the “bonus point” system awards 0 points for a first place.

Ian.

···

On 18 July 2011 16:46, Dick (Comcast) dallsopp@comcast.net wrote:

Ian,

I am certain that is what I am doing. I wonder if I can impose on you to provide me with proper definitions of a boat’s “rank”; “score”; and “position.” Much appreciated.

Dick Allsopp

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ian Savell
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 16:23
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Redress Scoring

Don’t confuse “rank” with “score”

Ian.

On 16 July 2011 14:19, Dick (Comcast) dallsopp@comcast.net wrote:

Art,

As I have seen A6.2 interpreted the redress boat shares its assigned position with the boat who finished in that position and the scores of remaining boats are not altered. In this case rank and score are treated as the same thing. The race in question is part of a series and moving the boat with two points to a third place can have significant effects. Strikes me that if the A6.2 option is selected under scoring codes that the boats should rank 1,1,2 . . .

I guess part of the problem is that the term “rank” is not defined under the rules at least that I know of.

Dicki

5

Ian,

First, I don't think this is a Sailwave issue but nevertheless it is an interesting discussion.

I think your comment about what the ISAF rules provide could be considered incomplete or might mislead folks. The ISAF rules basically say the scorer can never change scores of boats except in the very limited circumstances listed in rule A5. In the case of redress, it is the PC that "changes" scores and the scorer merely implements what the PC instructs. So, basically "you" as scorer can never change any scores. Your comment might be read to imply that "you" as scorer could change some scores but not others.

The rule about "other boats don't change score when redress is given" is merely a default provision if the PC forgets to mention the issue. It makes sense to be the default only because in A10 the first redress that is "recommended" is average points and with average points you probably wouldn't change the scores of other boats. It does not say that the scores of other boats cannot be changed. It merely tells the scorer what to do if the PC forgot to address the issue. I sometimes serve on PCs and we will always instruct the scorer as to how to handle other boats so rule A6.2 will never apply. Personally, I would seldom assign a place to a boat without changing the scores of other boats. If the boats entitled to redress should have been 1st then the boat that crossed the finishing line first should really have been 2nd and I would score her that way (meaning that as PC I would instruct the scorer what to do).

In the situation that started this discussion the PC decided a boat should have been 1st. I think that means that the boat that crossed the finishing line first should probably have been 2nd. For a long series I (as the PC) might possibly leave two boats as 1st so they both can feel good but for a single race I would definitely decide which single boat should be 1st and would adjust the scores accordingly. That would resolve the trophy issue. If I as scorer felt a redress decision wasn't fair I would go back to the PC and point out the unfairness. Same thing if I thought the decision was incomplete or didn't make sense (for example, because it ignored how trophies should be awarded). However, as scorer I have no discretion and have to simply implement what the PC and rules provide, even if it doesn't seem fair to me or doesn't make sense.

Art

···

On 7/18/2011 9:53 AM, Ian Savell wrote:
***

I don't know off the top of my head what should be done in a single trophy
race where a grant of redress is to determine the destination of the trophy.
ISAF say you can't change the score of the boat that "finished" in position
1 and scored 1 so if you give a score of 1 as redress you have a tie - maybe
not what was intended. I feel the protest committee/race committee should
determine who should get the trophy - after all they are aiming to redress
their error and had they not erred the trophy would have been awarded to the
redress boat. Perhaps they should award a score of 0 points - the "bonus
point" system awards 0 points for a first place.

Ian.

On 18 July 2011 16:46, Dick (Comcast)<dallsopp@comcast.net> wrote:

**

Ian,****

I am certain that is what I am doing. I wonder if I can impose on you to
provide me with proper definitions of a boat�s �rank�; �score�; and
�position.� Much appreciated.****

** **

Dick Allsopp****

6

Blimey!

Sorry, I should use correct grammar and use “one” rather than “you”. Of course the scorer can’t change the PCs decision. I was considering the options available to the PC, which in general are to adjust boats scores (64.2 and A10), although other options are available as you say. That decision has to be communicated to the scorer and entered somehow into Sailwave. I don’t think one can adjust the rank in Sailwave, only the score.

I only wanted to help - you had expressed a desire for understanding of how to handle an RDG decision and in the discussion had confused score and rank. It was you who asked for more assistance! If you want to lay traps for unwary helpers I’ll keep away.

Ian

···

On 18 July 2011 19:47, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net wrote:

Ian,

First, I don’t think this is a Sailwave issue but nevertheless it is an

interesting discussion.

I think your comment about what the ISAF rules provide could be

considered incomplete or might mislead folks. The ISAF rules basically

say the scorer can never change scores of boats except in the very

limited circumstances listed in rule A5. In the case of redress, it is

the PC that “changes” scores and the scorer merely implements what the

PC instructs. So, basically “you” as scorer can never change any scores.

Your comment might be read to imply that “you” as scorer could change

some scores but not others.

The rule about “other boats don’t change score when redress is given” is

merely a default provision if the PC forgets to mention the issue. It

makes sense to be the default only because in A10 the first redress that

is “recommended” is average points and with average points you probably

wouldn’t change the scores of other boats. It does not say that the

scores of other boats cannot be changed. It merely tells the scorer what

to do if the PC forgot to address the issue. I sometimes serve on PCs

and we will always instruct the scorer as to how to handle other boats

so rule A6.2 will never apply. Personally, I would seldom assign a place

to a boat without changing the scores of other boats. If the boats

entitled to redress should have been 1st then the boat that crossed the

finishing line first should really have been 2nd and I would score her

that way (meaning that as PC I would instruct the scorer what to do).

In the situation that started this discussion the PC decided a boat

should have been 1st. I think that means that the boat that crossed the

finishing line first should probably have been 2nd. For a long series I

(as the PC) might possibly leave two boats as 1st so they both can feel

good but for a single race I would definitely decide which single boat

should be 1st and would adjust the scores accordingly. That would

resolve the trophy issue. If I as scorer felt a redress decision wasn’t

fair I would go back to the PC and point out the unfairness. Same thing

if I thought the decision was incomplete or didn’t make sense (for

example, because it ignored how trophies should be awarded). However, as

scorer I have no discretion and have to simply implement what the PC and

rules provide, even if it doesn’t seem fair to me or doesn’t make sense.

Art

On 7/18/2011 9:53 AM, Ian Savell wrote:

I don’t know off the top of my head what should be done in a single trophy

race where a grant of redress is to determine the destination of the trophy.

ISAF say you can’t change the score of the boat that “finished” in position

1 and scored 1 so if you give a score of 1 as redress you have a tie - maybe

not what was intended. I feel the protest committee/race committee should

determine who should get the trophy - after all they are aiming to redress

their error and had they not erred the trophy would have been awarded to the

redress boat. Perhaps they should award a score of 0 points - the "bonus

point" system awards 0 points for a first place.

Ian.

On 18 July 2011 16:46, Dick (Comcast)dallsopp@comcast.net wrote:

**

Ian,****

I am certain that is what I am doing. I wonder if I can impose on you to

provide me with proper definitions of a boat’s “rank”; “score”; and

“position.” Much appreciated.****

Dick Allsopp****

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7

Don't confuse me with Dick!!

I didn't have a problem with how Sailwave handled Dick's situation and like you I was trying to address his concerns. I just wanted to be sure we (you and I) didn't leave others with the wrong impression (that the scores of "other" boats CANNOT be changed) in our messages. Art

···

On 7/18/2011 1:16 PM, Ian Savell wrote:

Blimey!

Sorry, I should use correct grammar and use "one" rather than "you". Of
course the scorer can't change the PCs decision. I was considering the
options available to the PC, which in general are to adjust boats scores
(64.2 and A10), although other options are available as you say. That
decision has to be communicated to the scorer and entered somehow into
Sailwave. I don't think one can adjust the rank in Sailwave, only the score.

I only wanted to help - you had expressed a desire for understanding of how
to handle an RDG decision and in the discussion had confused score and rank.
It was you who asked for more assistance! If you want to lay traps for
unwary helpers I'll keep away.

Ian

On 18 July 2011 19:47, Art Engel<artengel123@earthlink.net> wrote:

Ian,

First, I don't think this is a Sailwave issue but nevertheless it is an
interesting discussion.

I think your comment about what the ISAF rules provide could be
considered incomplete or might mislead folks. The ISAF rules basically
say the scorer can never change scores of boats except in the very
limited circumstances listed in rule A5. In the case of redress, it is
the PC that "changes" scores and the scorer merely implements what the
PC instructs. So, basically "you" as scorer can never change any scores.
Your comment might be read to imply that "you" as scorer could change
some scores but not others.

The rule about "other boats don't change score when redress is given" is
merely a default provision if the PC forgets to mention the issue. It
makes sense to be the default only because in A10 the first redress that
is "recommended" is average points and with average points you probably
wouldn't change the scores of other boats. It does not say that the
scores of other boats cannot be changed. It merely tells the scorer what
to do if the PC forgot to address the issue. I sometimes serve on PCs
and we will always instruct the scorer as to how to handle other boats
so rule A6.2 will never apply. Personally, I would seldom assign a place
to a boat without changing the scores of other boats. If the boats
entitled to redress should have been 1st then the boat that crossed the
finishing line first should really have been 2nd and I would score her
that way (meaning that as PC I would instruct the scorer what to do).

In the situation that started this discussion the PC decided a boat
should have been 1st. I think that means that the boat that crossed the
finishing line first should probably have been 2nd. For a long series I
(as the PC) might possibly leave two boats as 1st so they both can feel
good but for a single race I would definitely decide which single boat
should be 1st and would adjust the scores accordingly. That would
resolve the trophy issue. If I as scorer felt a redress decision wasn't
fair I would go back to the PC and point out the unfairness. Same thing
if I thought the decision was incomplete or didn't make sense (for
example, because it ignored how trophies should be awarded). However, as
scorer I have no discretion and have to simply implement what the PC and
rules provide, even if it doesn't seem fair to me or doesn't make sense.

Art

On 7/18/2011 9:53 AM, Ian Savell wrote:
***

I don't know off the top of my head what should be done in a single

trophy

race where a grant of redress is to determine the destination of the

trophy.

ISAF say you can't change the score of the boat that "finished" in

position

1 and scored 1 so if you give a score of 1 as redress you have a tie -

maybe

not what was intended. I feel the protest committee/race committee should
determine who should get the trophy - after all they are aiming to

redress

their error and had they not erred the trophy would have been awarded to

the

redress boat. Perhaps they should award a score of 0 points - the "bonus
point" system awards 0 points for a first place.

Ian.

On 18 July 2011 16:46, Dick (Comcast)<dallsopp@comcast.net> wrote:

**

Ian,****

I am certain that is what I am doing. I wonder if I can impose on you to
provide me with proper definitions of a boat�s �rank�; �score�; and
�position.� Much appreciated.****

** **

Dick Allsopp****

------------------------------------

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http://www.sailwave.com/ -!- On-Line Sailwave help...
http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Townsend's Sailwave User Guide is
available from http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~
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