[sailwave] Result culculations

[D_WOOLSTON]

Dear Jon, Huw and Peter

Very many thanks for all you replies and help, all questions answered, to date our club has always calculated to several decimal points for the result, so this will come as a surprise.

Regarding the change in the wayfarer handicap, this is because the club adds 2 percent for singlehanded sailors in boats design for crew of 2.

Many thanks for advice on entering data this will indeed restrict mistakes

Best wishes

David

[Sailwave]

Hi David,

Rounding corrected time as specified by the RYA is very sensible in my opinion. Otherwise you end up publishing results which you can’t see the reason for the placing unless you publish results to multiple fractions of a second which would be very messy and unnecessary. If you think about it, it is also much fairer. We are only recording the finish time to the nearest second so we would really need to record to 100th of second if we wanted to score to fractions of a second and we all know that this is not practical. Also the resolution of the rating system doesn’t allow for that level of accuracy yet alone if the ratings are an exact true reflection of performance anyway. It is much fairer that it is recognised that the system couldn’t distinguish between the two and give them equal first.

From memory there was a very good discussion thread on this topic a few years ago on this User Group.

Jon

···

On 14 December 2016 at 10:17, D WOOLSTON woolston546@btinternet.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Dear Jon, Huw and Peter

Very many thanks for all you replies and help, all questions answered, to date our club has always calculated to several decimal points for the result, so this will come as a surprise.

Regarding the change in the wayfarer handicap, this is because the club adds 2 percent for singlehanded sailors in boats design for crew of 2.

Many thanks for advice on entering data this will indeed restrict mistakes

Best wishes

David

Jon Eskdale
07530 112233

Skype “eskdale”

[Colin_Jenkins]

There was - making all those good points. Also if boat A is clearly ahead of boat B at the finish but looking at your watch they have the same time - I think we decided it was practical to just give them +1 or -1 time. There are so many cumulative errors and approximations that leaving decimal places on corrected time is quite meaningless. CJ.

···

On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Hi David,

Rounding corrected time as specified by the RYA is very sensible in my opinion. Otherwise you end up publishing results which you can’t see the reason for the placing unless you publish results to multiple fractions of a second which would be very messy and unnecessary. If you think about it, it is also much fairer. We are only recording the finish time to the nearest second so we would really need to record to 100th of second if we wanted to score to fractions of a second and we all know that this is not practical. Also the resolution of the rating system doesn’t allow for that level of accuracy yet alone if the ratings are an exact true reflection of performance anyway. It is much fairer that it is recognised that the system couldn’t distinguish between the two and give them equal first.

From memory there was a very good discussion thread on this topic a few years ago on this User Group.

Jon

Cheers,

Colin J

http://google.com/+colinjenkins

Jon Eskdale
07530 112233

Skype “eskdale”

On 14 December 2016 at 10:17, D WOOLSTON woolston546@btinternet.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Dear Jon, Huw and Peter

Very many thanks for all you replies and help, all questions answered, to date our club has always calculated to several decimal points for the result, so this will come as a surprise.

Regarding the change in the wayfarer handicap, this is because the club adds 2 percent for singlehanded sailors in boats design for crew of 2.

Many thanks for advice on entering data this will indeed restrict mistakes

Best wishes

David

[yahoo_groups]

Agree with everything said about rounding to the second.

—In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, <op12no2@…> wrote :

Also if boat A is clearly ahead of boat B at the finish but looking at your

watch they have the same time - I think we decided it was practical to

just give them +1 or -1 time.

That is a bit of a logical problem though. They are racing on handicap, so if they are equal on corrected time they tie. Otherwise you are putting in a sort of tiebreak that only applies when the tied boats happen to be of the same handicap, which arguably isn’t really fair.

The elephant in the room though, is whether we really manage to record times accurately even to the nearest second. A couple of years back I had a finish on video for a rather busy race, and cross referenced it in slow motion back to the times and places we recorded at the time. It was worrying. To say the least it was worrying…

Jim C

[BassSC]

There’s been some great discussion on this topic but at the end of the day it is handicap racing, a methodology of putting different boats on an equal footing. There’s not a lot of point in using decimal seconds for corrected time bearing in mind the level of (in)accuracy of the individual boat ratings.

···

From memory, when logs were used to calculate corrected times, elapsed seconds were just added to the corrected time I.e. Just the minutes were adjusted!

Hey ho

Hope you all have a great Christmas!

William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone

/)/)/)___/)

(_(___(__

On 14 Dec 2016, at 12:17, yho@devboats.co.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Agree with everything said about rounding to the second.

—In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, <op12no2@…> wrote :

Also if boat A is clearly ahead of boat B at the finish but looking at your

watch they have the same time - I think we decided it was practical to

just give them +1 or -1 time.

That is a bit of a logical problem though. They are racing on handicap, so if they are equal on corrected time they tie. Otherwise you are putting in a sort of tiebreak that only applies when the tied boats happen to be of the same handicap, which arguably isn’t really fair.

The elephant in the room though, is whether we really manage to record times accurately even to the nearest second. A couple of years back I had a finish on video for a rather busy race, and cross referenced it in slow motion back to the times and places we recorded at the time. It was worrying. To say the least it was worrying…

Jim C

[Huw2]

Hi William,

  I remember the days of a draughtsman board with with sliding bar

to find corrected time from elapsed hours and minutes and then
adding on the elapsed seconds. We have moved on slightly

Happy seasons greetings to all SUG members.

Huw

···

On 14/12/2016 13:03, Bassenthwaite SC
[sailwave] wrote:

club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk

          There's been some great discussion on this topic but at

the end of the day it is handicap racing, a methodology of
putting different boats on an equal footing. There’s not a
lot of point in using decimal seconds for corrected time
bearing in mind the level of (in)accuracy of the
individual boat ratings.

          From memory, when logs were

used to calculate corrected times, elapsed seconds were
just added to the corrected time I.e. Just the minutes
were adjusted!

Hey ho

          Hope you all have a great

Christmas!

          William Carruthers

Sent from my iPhone

/)/)/)___/)

(_(___(__

          On 14 Dec 2016, at 12:17, yho@devboats.co.uk
          [sailwave] <sailwave@yahoogroups.com              >

wrote:

              Agree with everything said

about rounding to the second.

—In sailwave@yahoogroups.com ,
wrote :

                  > Also if boat A is clearly ahead

of boat B at the finish but looking at your

                  > watch they have the same time -

I think we decided it was practical to

just give them +1 or -1 time.

                  That is a bit of a logical problem

though. They are racing on handicap, so if they
are equal on corrected time they tie. Otherwise
you are putting in a sort of tiebreak that only
applies when the tied boats happen to be of the
same handicap, which arguably isn’t really fair.

                  The elephant in the room though, is

whether we really manage to record times
accurately even to the nearest second. A couple of
years back I had a finish on video for a rather
busy race, and cross referenced it in slow motion
back to the times and places we recorded at the
time. It was worrying. To say the least it was
worrying…

Jim C

---

This email has been checked for
viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

---

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.

www.avast.com

<op12no2@…>

[BassSC]

Before my time Huw!

···

I’m not saying we’re not in a better place, just that it’s only a game after all, and there will be winners and losers…

William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone

/)/)/)___/)

(_(___(__

On 14 Dec 2016, at 13:10, Huw Pearce huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Hi William,

  I remember the days of a draughtsman board with with sliding bar

to find corrected time from elapsed hours and minutes and then
adding on the elapsed seconds. We have moved on slightly

Happy seasons greetings to all SUG members.

Huw

  On 14/12/2016 13:03, Bassenthwaite SC

club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk [sailwave] wrote:

          There's been some great discussion on this topic but at

the end of the day it is handicap racing, a methodology of
putting different boats on an equal footing. There’s not a
lot of point in using decimal seconds for corrected time
bearing in mind the level of (in)accuracy of the
individual boat ratings.

          From memory, when logs were

used to calculate corrected times, elapsed seconds were
just added to the corrected time I.e. Just the minutes
were adjusted!

Hey ho

          Hope you all have a great

Christmas!

          William Carruthers

Sent from my iPhone

/)/)/)___/)

(_(___(__

---

This email has been checked for
viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

---

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.

www.avast.com

          On 14 Dec 2016, at 12:17, yho@devboats.co.uk
          [sailwave] <sailwave@yahoogroups.com              >

wrote:

              Agree with everything said

about rounding to the second.

—In sailwave@yahoogroups.com ,
<op12no2@…> wrote :

                  > Also if boat A is clearly ahead

of boat B at the finish but looking at your

                  > watch they have the same time -

I think we decided it was practical to

just give them +1 or -1 time.

                  That is a bit of a logical problem

though. They are racing on handicap, so if they
are equal on corrected time they tie. Otherwise
you are putting in a sort of tiebreak that only
applies when the tied boats happen to be of the
same handicap, which arguably isn’t really fair.

                  The elephant in the room though, is

whether we really manage to record times
accurately even to the nearest second. A couple of
years back I had a finish on video for a rather
busy race, and cross referenced it in slow motion
back to the times and places we recorded at the
time. It was worrying. To say the least it was
worrying…

Jim C

[mtownsend]

The Racing Rules of Sailing Appendix A, RRS A3 was changed in the 2005-2008 rule book to delete the phrase "corrected to the nearest second ". This change then left the determination of if to round to the nearest second to the handicap
system (see below).

2001-2004 Racing Rules of Sailing

A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING PLACES
The time of a boat’s starting signal shall be her starting time, and the order
in which boats finish a race shall determine their finishing places. However,
when a handicap system is used a boat’s elapsed time***, corrected to the
nearest second,*** shall determine her finishing place.

2005-2008 Racing Rules of Sailing

A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING PLACES

The time of a boat’s starting signal shall be her starting time, and

the order in which boats finish a race shall determine their finishing

places. However, when a handicap or rating system is used a boat’s

corrected time shall determine her finishing place.

Some handicap systems now include language to round to the nearest second and some do not. US PHRF does not include language to correct to the nearest second.

The notice of race or sailing instructions may change the handicap system
to correct to the nearest second. This would be a class rule change (see definition of
rule) and, unless the handicap permits the change, would need to comply with RRS 87, which requires written permission of the handicap association for the change to be displayed on the official notice board.

···

Mark Townsend

---

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 5:23 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Result culculations

Before my time Huw!

I’m not saying we’re not in a better place, just that it’s only a game after all, and there will be winners and losers…

William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone

/)/)/)___/)

(_(___(__

On 14 Dec 2016, at 13:10, Huw Pearce huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Hi William,

I remember the days of a draughtsman board with with sliding bar to find corrected time from elapsed hours and minutes and then adding on the elapsed seconds. We have moved on slightly

Happy seasons greetings to all SUG members.

Huw

On 14/12/2016 13:03, Bassenthwaite SC
club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk [sailwave] wrote:

There’s been some great discussion on this topic but at the end of the day it is handicap racing, a methodology of putting different boats on an equal footing. There’s not a lot of point in using decimal seconds for corrected time bearing in mind the level
of (in)accuracy of the individual boat ratings.

From memory, when logs were used to calculate corrected times, elapsed seconds were just added to the corrected time I.e. Just the minutes were adjusted!

Hey ho

Hope you all have a great Christmas!

William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone

/)/)/)___/)

(_(___(__

On 14 Dec 2016, at 12:17, yho@devboats.co.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Agree with everything said about rounding to the second.

—In sailwave@yahoogroups.com,
<op12no2@…> wrote :

Also if boat A is clearly ahead of boat B at the finish but looking at your

watch they have the same time - I think we decided it was practical to

just give them +1 or -1 time.

That is a bit of a logical problem though. They are racing on handicap, so if they are equal on corrected time they tie. Otherwise you are putting in a sort of tiebreak that only applies when the tied boats happen to be of the same handicap,
which arguably isn’t really fair.

The elephant in the room though, is whether we really manage to record times accurately even to the nearest second. A couple of years back I had a finish on video for a rather busy race, and cross referenced it in slow motion back to the times
and places we recorded at the time. It was worrying. To say the least it was worrying…

Jim C

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

---

---

[RichardE]

To complete the picture for those new to using the PY Scheme:

The RYA publishes a document about using the Portsmouth Yardstick scheme – at (click). It includes the following statement under “Scoring a race”.

···

On 17 December 2016 at 19:11, Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

The Racing Rules of Sailing Appendix A, RRS A3 was changed in the 2005-2008 rule book to delete the phrase "corrected to the nearest second ". This change then left the determination of if to round to the nearest second to the handicap
system (see below).

2001-2004 Racing Rules of Sailing

A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING PLACES
The time of a boat’s starting signal shall be her starting time, and the order
in which boats finish a race shall determine their finishing places. However,
when a handicap system is used a boat’s elapsed time***, corrected to the
nearest second,*** shall determine her finishing place.

2005-2008 Racing Rules of Sailing

A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING PLACES

The time of a boat’s starting signal shall be her starting time, and

the order in which boats finish a race shall determine their finishing

places. However, when a handicap or rating system is used a boat’s

corrected time shall determine her finishing place.

Some handicap systems now include language to round to the nearest second and some do not. US PHRF does not include language to correct to the nearest second.

The notice of race or sailing instructions may change the handicap system
to correct to the nearest second. This would be a class rule change (see definition of
rule) and, unless the handicap permits the change, would need to comply with RRS 87, which requires written permission of the handicap association for the change to be displayed on the official notice board.

Mark Townsend

---

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 5:23 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Result culculations

Before my time Huw!

I’m not saying we’re not in a better place, just that it’s only a game after all, and there will be winners and losers…

William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone

/)/)/)___/)

(_(___(__

On 14 Dec 2016, at 13:10, Huw Pearce huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Hi William,

I remember the days of a draughtsman board with with sliding bar to find corrected time from elapsed hours and minutes and then adding on the elapsed seconds. We have moved on slightly

Happy seasons greetings to all SUG members.

Huw

On 14/12/2016 13:03, Bassenthwaite SC
club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk [sailwave] wrote:

There’s been some great discussion on this topic but at the end of the day it is handicap racing, a methodology of putting different boats on an equal footing. There’s not a lot of point in using decimal seconds for corrected time bearing in mind the level
of (in)accuracy of the individual boat ratings.

From memory, when logs were used to calculate corrected times, elapsed seconds were just added to the corrected time I.e. Just the minutes were adjusted!

Hey ho

Hope you all have a great Christmas!

William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone

/)/)/)___/)

(_(___(__

On 14 Dec 2016, at 12:17, yho@devboats.co.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Agree with everything said about rounding to the second.

—In sailwave@yahoogroups.com,
<op12no2@…> wrote :

Also if boat A is clearly ahead of boat B at the finish but looking at your

watch they have the same time - I think we decided it was practical to

just give them +1 or -1 time.

That is a bit of a logical problem though. They are racing on handicap, so if they are equal on corrected time they tie. Otherwise you are putting in a sort of tiebreak that only applies when the tied boats happen to be of the same handicap,
which arguably isn’t really fair.

The elephant in the room though, is whether we really manage to record times accurately even to the nearest second. A couple of years back I had a finish on video for a rather busy race, and cross referenced it in slow motion back to the times
and places we recorded at the time. It was worrying. To say the least it was worrying…

Jim C

---

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

---

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

Richard
Evans
m: 07777670525
t: 01381 620746

​www.chanonry.org.uk

/results.html​

[PvM4RM]

Hi Jon,

Would it be possible to add a rounding on/off switch to Sailwave? Currently, under PHRF & US PY, I would have to manually check the results of boats that are tied by Sailwave on corrected time and make adjustments if needed… I’m sure that there are other handicap systems that don’t require rounding. As Mark already said, adding something to the sailing instructions is not an option for most of these handicap systems.

Peter

···

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:41 PM, ‘Richard Evans (GMail)’ richardf.evans@gmail.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

To complete the picture for those new to using the PY Scheme:

The RYA publishes a document about using the Portsmouth Yardstick scheme – at (click). It includes the following statement under “Scoring a race”.

Richard
Evans
m: 07777670525
t: 01381 620746

​www.chanonry.org.uk

/results.html​

On 17 December 2016 at 19:11, Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

The Racing Rules of Sailing Appendix A, RRS A3 was changed in the 2005-2008 rule book to delete the phrase "corrected to the nearest second ". This change then left the determination of if to round to the nearest second to the handicap
system (see below).

2001-2004 Racing Rules of Sailing

A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING PLACES
The time of a boat’s starting signal shall be her starting time, and the order
in which boats finish a race shall determine their finishing places. However,
when a handicap system is used a boat’s elapsed time***, corrected to the
nearest second,*** shall determine her finishing place.

2005-2008 Racing Rules of Sailing

A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING PLACES

The time of a boat’s starting signal shall be her starting time, and

the order in which boats finish a race shall determine their finishing

places. However, when a handicap or rating system is used a boat’s

corrected time shall determine her finishing place.

Some handicap systems now include language to round to the nearest second and some do not. US PHRF does not include language to correct to the nearest second.

The notice of race or sailing instructions may change the handicap system
to correct to the nearest second. This would be a class rule change (see definition of
rule) and, unless the handicap permits the change, would need to comply with RRS 87, which requires written permission of the handicap association for the change to be displayed on the official notice board.

Mark Townsend

---

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 5:23 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Result culculations

Before my time Huw!

I’m not saying we’re not in a better place, just that it’s only a game after all, and there will be winners and losers…

William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone

/)/)/)___/)

(_(___(__

On 14 Dec 2016, at 13:10, Huw Pearce huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Hi William,

I remember the days of a draughtsman board with with sliding bar to find corrected time from elapsed hours and minutes and then adding on the elapsed seconds. We have moved on slightly

Happy seasons greetings to all SUG members.

Huw

On 14/12/2016 13:03, Bassenthwaite SC
club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk [sailwave] wrote:

There’s been some great discussion on this topic but at the end of the day it is handicap racing, a methodology of putting different boats on an equal footing. There’s not a lot of point in using decimal seconds for corrected time bearing in mind the level
of (in)accuracy of the individual boat ratings.

From memory, when logs were used to calculate corrected times, elapsed seconds were just added to the corrected time I.e. Just the minutes were adjusted!

Hey ho

Hope you all have a great Christmas!

William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone

/)/)/)___/)

(_(___(__

On 14 Dec 2016, at 12:17, yho@devboats.co.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Agree with everything said about rounding to the second.

—In sailwave@yahoogroups.com,
<op12no2@…> wrote :

Also if boat A is clearly ahead of boat B at the finish but looking at your

watch they have the same time - I think we decided it was practical to

just give them +1 or -1 time.

That is a bit of a logical problem though. They are racing on handicap, so if they are equal on corrected time they tie. Otherwise you are putting in a sort of tiebreak that only applies when the tied boats happen to be of the same handicap,
which arguably isn’t really fair.

The elephant in the room though, is whether we really manage to record times accurately even to the nearest second. A couple of years back I had a finish on video for a rather busy race, and cross referenced it in slow motion back to the times
and places we recorded at the time. It was worrying. To say the least it was worrying…

Jim C

---

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

---

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

[Huw2]

Hi Peter,

Whether Jon can or cannot, in my view there is a question.

  How far do you take the number of rounding places? If the

rounding level is not specified in the rating then someone has to
make the decision! If the rating system specifies not specify the
rounding level then surely the SI’s should do so. So you are
really no better off

  At least if the timings are done to the second then generally

accepted mathematics is sensible, in that one does not produce an
answer that has decimal seconds for the corrected time. I would
also, respectfully, suggest that timing boats to better than a
second on the finish line is very subjective anyway for several
reasons.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Kind regards,

Huw

···

On 26/12/16 19:13, Peter van Muyden
[sailwave] wrote:

pvanmuyden@gmail.com

Hi Jon,

            Would it be possible to add a rounding on/off switch

to Sailwave? Currently, under PHRF & US PY, I
would have to manually check the results of boats that
are tied by Sailwave on corrected time and make
adjustments if needed… I’m sure that there are other
handicap systems that don’t require rounding. As Mark
already said, adding something to the sailing
instructions is not an option for most of these handicap
systems.

Peter

            On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:41 PM,

‘Richard Evans (GMail)’ richardf.evans@gmail.com
[sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com
wrote:

                          To complete the

picture for those new to using the PY
Scheme:

                          The RYA publishes a

document about using the Portsmouth
Yardstick scheme – at (click ). It includes
the following statement under “Scoring a
race”.

** Richard**

                                Evans

                                m: 07777670525

                                t: 01381 620746

​www.chanonry.org.uk

/results.html​

                                On 17

December 2016 at 19:11, Mark
Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com
[sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com
wrote:

                                              The Racing Rules of

Sailing Appendix A,
RRS A3 was changed in
the 2005-2008 rule
book to delete the
phrase "*** corrected
to the nearest
second*** ". This
change then left
the determination of
if to round to the
nearest second to the
handicap system (see
below).

** 2001-2004
Racing Rules of
Sailing**

** A3 STARTING
TIMES AND FINISHING
PLACES**
The time of a boat’s
starting signal shall
be her starting time,
and the order
in which boats finish
a race shall determine
their finishing
places. However,
when a handicap system
is used a boat’s
elapsed time*** ,
corrected to the
nearest second,***
shall determine her
finishing place.

** 2005-2008
Racing Rules of
Sailing**

** A3 STARTING
TIMES AND
FINISHING PLACES**

                                                The time of a boat’s

starting signal
shall be her
starting time, and

                                                the order in which

boats finish a race
shall determine
their finishing

                                                places. However,

when a handicap or
rating system is
used a boat’s

                                                corrected time shall

determine her
finishing place.

                                              Some handicap systems

now include language
to round to the
nearest second and
some do not. US PHRF
does not include
language to correct to
the nearest second.

                                                  The

notice of race or
sailing
instructions may change
the handicap system
to correct
to the nearest
second. T his
would be a class rule
change (see definition
of
rule ) and,
unless the handicap
permits the change,
would need to comply
with RRS 87, which
requires written
permission of the
handicap association
for the change to
be displayed on the
official notice
board.

                                              Mark

Townsend

---

From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
<sailwave@yahoogroups.com >
on behalf of
Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk
[sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent:
Wednesday,
December 14, 2016
5:23 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave]
Result
culculations

                                                      Before my

time Huw!

                                                      I'm

not saying
we’re not in a
better place,
just that it’s
only a game
after all, and
there will be
winners and
losers…

                                                      William

Carruthers
Sent from
my iPhone

/)/)/)___/)

(_(___(__

                                                      On 14 Dec

2016, at
13:10, Huw
Pearce huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk
[sailwave]
<sailwave@yahoogroups.com >
wrote:

Hi William,

                                                      I remember

the days of a
draughtsman
board with
with sliding
bar to find
corrected time
from elapsed
hours and
minutes and
then adding on
the elapsed
seconds. We
have moved on
slightly

                                                      Happy

seasons
greetings to
all SUG
members.

Huw

                                                      On

14/12/2016
13:03,
Bassenthwaite
SC
club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk [sailwave] wrote:

                                                      There's

been some
great
discussion on
this topic but
at the end of
the day it is
handicap
racing, a
methodology of
putting
different
boats on an
equal footing.
There’s not a
lot of point
in using
decimal
seconds for
corrected time
bearing in
mind the level
of
(in)accuracy
of the
individual
boat ratings.

                                                      From

memory, when
logs were used
to calculate
corrected
times, elapsed
seconds were
just added to
the corrected
time I.e. Just
the minutes
were adjusted!

                                                      Hey

ho

                                                      Hope

you all have a
great
Christmas!

                                                      William

Carruthers
Sent from
my iPhone

/)/)/)___/)

(_(___(__

                                                      On 14 Dec

2016, at
12:17, yho@devboats.co.uk
[sailwave]
<sailwave@yahoogroups.com >
wrote:

                                                      Agree

with
everything
said about
rounding to
the second.

                                                      ---In

sailwave@yahoogroups.com ,
<op12no2@…> wrote
:

                                                      >

Also if boat A
is clearly
ahead of boat
B at the
finish but
looking at
your

                                                      >

watch they
have the same
time - I think
we decided it
was practical
to

                                                      >

just give them
+1 or -1 time.

                                                      That

is a bit of a
logical
problem
though. They
are racing on
handicap, so
if they are
equal on
corrected time
they tie.
Otherwise you
are putting in
a sort of
tiebreak that
only applies
when the tied
boats happen
to be of the
same handicap,
which arguably
isn’t really
fair.

                                                      The

elephant in
the room
though, is
whether we
really manage
to record
times
accurately
even to the
nearest
second. A
couple of
years back I
had a finish
on video for a
rather busy
race, and
cross
referenced it
in slow motion
back to the
times and
places we
recorded at
the time. It
was worrying.
To say the
least it was
worrying…

                                                      Jim

C

---

This
email has been
checked for
viruses by
Avast
antivirus
software.
www.avast.com

---

This
email has been
checked for
viruses by
Avast
antivirus
software.
www.avast.com

[RichardE]

100% agree with Huw.

···

On 26 December 2016 at 20:48, Huw Pearce huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Hi Peter,

Whether Jon can or cannot, in my view there is a question.

  How far do you take the number of rounding places? If the

rounding level is not specified in the rating then someone has to
make the decision! If the rating system specifies not specify the
rounding level then surely the SI’s should do so. So you are
really no better off

  At least if the timings are done to the second then generally

accepted mathematics is sensible, in that one does not produce an
answer that has decimal seconds for the corrected time. I would
also, respectfully, suggest that timing boats to better than a
second on the finish line is very subjective anyway for several
reasons.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Kind regards,

Huw

  On 26/12/16 19:13, Peter van Muyden

pvanmuyden@gmail.com [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Jon,

            Would it be possible to add a rounding on/off switch

to Sailwave? Currently, under PHRF & US PY, I
would have to manually check the results of boats that
are tied by Sailwave on corrected time and make
adjustments if needed… I’m sure that there are other
handicap systems that don’t require rounding. As Mark
already said, adding something to the sailing
instructions is not an option for most of these handicap
systems.

Peter

Richard
Evans
m: 07777670525
t: 01381 620746

            On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:41 PM,

‘Richard Evans (GMail)’ richardf.evans@gmail.com
[sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com
wrote:

                          To complete the

picture for those new to using the PY
Scheme:

                          The RYA publishes a

document about using the Portsmouth
Yardstick scheme – at (click ). It includes
the following statement under “Scoring a
race”.

** Richard**

                                Evans

                                m: 07777670525

                                t: 01381 620746

​www.chanonry.org.uk

/results.html​

                                On 17

December 2016 at 19:11, Mark
Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com
[sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com
wrote:

                                              The Racing Rules of

Sailing Appendix A,
RRS A3 was changed in
the 2005-2008 rule
book to delete the
phrase "*** corrected
to the nearest
second*** ". This
change then left
the determination of
if to round to the
nearest second to the
handicap system (see
below).

** 2001-2004
Racing Rules of
Sailing**

** A3 STARTING
TIMES AND FINISHING
PLACES**
The time of a boat’s
starting signal shall
be her starting time,
and the order
in which boats finish
a race shall determine
their finishing
places. However,
when a handicap system
is used a boat’s
elapsed time*** ,
corrected to the
nearest second,***
shall determine her
finishing place.

** 2005-2008
Racing Rules of
Sailing**

** A3 STARTING
TIMES AND
FINISHING PLACES**

                                                The time of a boat’s

starting signal
shall be her
starting time, and

                                                the order in which

boats finish a race
shall determine
their finishing

                                                places. However,

when a handicap or
rating system is
used a boat’s

                                                corrected time shall

determine her
finishing place.

                                              Some handicap systems

now include language
to round to the
nearest second and
some do not. US PHRF
does not include
language to correct to
the nearest second.

                                                  The

notice of race or
sailing
instructions may change
the handicap system
to correct
to the nearest
second. T his
would be a class rule
change (see definition
of
rule ) and,
unless the handicap
permits the change,
would need to comply
with RRS 87, which
requires written
permission of the
handicap association
for the change to
be displayed on the
official notice
board.

                                              Mark

Townsend

---

From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
<sailwave@yahoogroups.com >
on behalf of
Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk
[sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent:
Wednesday,
December 14, 2016
5:23 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave]
Result
culculations

                                                      Before my

time Huw!

                                                      I'm

not saying
we’re not in a
better place,
just that it’s
only a game
after all, and
there will be
winners and
losers…

                                                      William

Carruthers
Sent from
my iPhone

/)/)/)___/)

(_(___(__

                                                      On 14 Dec

2016, at
13:10, Huw
Pearce huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk
[sailwave]
<sailwave@yahoogroups.com >
wrote:

Hi William,

                                                      I remember

the days of a
draughtsman
board with
with sliding
bar to find
corrected time
from elapsed
hours and
minutes and
then adding on
the elapsed
seconds. We
have moved on
slightly

                                                      Happy

seasons
greetings to
all SUG
members.

Huw

                                                      On

14/12/2016
13:03,
Bassenthwaite
SC
club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk [sailwave] wrote:

                                                      There's

been some
great
discussion on
this topic but
at the end of
the day it is
handicap
racing, a
methodology of
putting
different
boats on an
equal footing.
There’s not a
lot of point
in using
decimal
seconds for
corrected time
bearing in
mind the level
of
(in)accuracy
of the
individual
boat ratings.

                                                      From

memory, when
logs were used
to calculate
corrected
times, elapsed
seconds were
just added to
the corrected
time I.e. Just
the minutes
were adjusted!

                                                      Hey

ho

                                                      Hope

you all have a
great
Christmas!

                                                      William

Carruthers
Sent from
my iPhone

/)/)/)___/)

(_(___(__

                                                      On 14 Dec

2016, at
12:17, yho@devboats.co.uk
[sailwave]
<sailwave@yahoogroups.com >
wrote:

                                                      Agree

with
everything
said about
rounding to
the second.

                                                      ---In

sailwave@yahoogroups.com ,
<op12no2@…> wrote
:

                                                      >

Also if boat A
is clearly
ahead of boat
B at the
finish but
looking at
your

                                                      >

watch they
have the same
time - I think
we decided it
was practical
to

                                                      >

just give them
+1 or -1 time.

                                                      That

is a bit of a
logical
problem
though. They
are racing on
handicap, so
if they are
equal on
corrected time
they tie.
Otherwise you
are putting in
a sort of
tiebreak that
only applies
when the tied
boats happen
to be of the
same handicap,
which arguably
isn’t really
fair.

                                                      The

elephant in
the room
though, is
whether we
really manage
to record
times
accurately
even to the
nearest
second. A
couple of
years back I
had a finish
on video for a
rather busy
race, and
cross
referenced it
in slow motion
back to the
times and
places we
recorded at
the time. It
was worrying.
To say the
least it was
worrying…

                                                      Jim

C

---

This
email has been
checked for
viruses by
Avast
antivirus
software.
www.avast.com

---

This
email has been
checked for
viruses by
Avast
antivirus
software.
www.avast.com

[Rob_Morton]

Me too

Rob Morton
Sent while on the road
Mobile: 0428 246 903

···

From: ‘Richard Evans (GMail)’ richardf.evans@gmail.com [sailwave]
Sent: Tuesday, 27 December 2016 09:06
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Result culculations

100% agree with Huw.

Richard
Evans
m: 07777670525
t: 01381 620746

On 26 December 2016 at 20:48, Huw Pearce huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Hi Peter,

Whether Jon can or cannot, in my view there is a question.

How far do you take the number of rounding places? If the rounding level is not specified in the rating then someone has to make the decision! If the rating system specifies not specify the rounding level then surely the SI’s should do so. So you are really no better off

At least if the timings are done to the second then generally accepted mathematics is sensible, in that one does not produce an answer that has decimal seconds for the corrected time. I would also, respectfully, suggest that timing boats to better than a second on the finish line is very subjective anyway for several reasons.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Kind regards,

Huw

On 26/12/16 19:13, Peter van Muyden pvanmuyden@gmail.com [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Jon,

Would it be possible to add a rounding on/off switch to Sailwave? Currently, under PHRF & US PY, I would have to manually check the results of boats that are tied by Sailwave on corrected time and make adjustments if needed… I’m sure that there are other handicap systems that don’t require rounding. As Mark already said, adding something to the sailing instructions is not an option for most of these handicap systems.

Peter

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:41 PM, ‘Richard Evans (GMail)’ richardf.evans@gmail.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

To complete the picture for those new to using the PY Scheme:

The RYA publishes a document about using the Portsmouth Yardstick scheme – at (click). It includes the following statement under “Scoring a race”.

Richard
Evans
m: 07777670525
t: 01381 620746

​www.chanonry.org.uk

/results.html​

On 17 December 2016 at 19:11, Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

The Racing Rules of Sailing Appendix A, RRS A3 was changed in the 2005-2008 rule book to delete the phrase "corrected to the nearest second ". This change then left the determination of if to round to the nearest second to the handicap system (see below).

2001-2004 Racing Rules of Sailing

A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING PLACES
The time of a boat’s starting signal shall be her starting time, and the order
in which boats finish a race shall determine their finishing places. However,
when a handicap system is used a boat’s elapsed time***, corrected to the
nearest second,*** shall determine her finishing place.

2005-2008 Racing Rules of Sailing

A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING PLACES
The time of a boat’s starting signal shall be her starting time, and
the order in which boats finish a race shall determine their finishing
places. However, when a handicap or rating system is used a boat’s
corrected time shall determine her finishing place.

Some handicap systems now include language to round to the nearest second and some do not. US PHRF does not include language to correct to the nearest second.

The notice of race or sailing instructions may change the handicap system to correct to the nearest second. This would be a class rule change (see definition of rule) and, unless the handicap permits the change, would need to comply with RRS 87, which requires written permission of the handicap association for the change to be displayed on the official notice board.

Mark Townsend

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 5:23 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Result culculations

Before my time Huw!

I’m not saying we’re not in a better place, just that it’s only a game after all, and there will be winners and losers…

William Carruthers

Sent from my iPhone

/)/)/)___/)

(_(___(__

On 14 Dec 2016, at 13:10, Huw Pearce huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Hi William,

I remember the days of a draughtsman board with with sliding bar to find corrected time from elapsed hours and minutes and then adding on the elapsed seconds. We have moved on slightly

Happy seasons greetings to all SUG members.

Huw

On 14/12/2016 13:03, Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk [sailwave] wrote:

There’s been some great discussion on this topic but at the end of the day it is handicap racing, a methodology of putting different boats on an equal footing. There’s not a lot of point in using decimal seconds for corrected time bearing in mind the level of (in)accuracy of the individual boat ratings.

From memory, when logs were used to calculate corrected times, elapsed seconds were just added to the corrected time I.e. Just the minutes were adjusted!

Hey ho

Hope you all have a great Christmas!

William Carruthers

Sent from my iPhone

/)/)/)___/)

(_(___(__

On 14 Dec 2016, at 12:17, yho@devboats.co.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Agree with everything said about rounding to the second.

—In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, <op12no2@…> wrote :

Also if boat A is clearly ahead of boat B at the finish but looking at your

watch they have the same time - I think we decided it was practical to

just give them +1 or -1 time.

That is a bit of a logical problem though. They are racing on handicap, so if they are equal on corrected time they tie. Otherwise you are putting in a sort of tiebreak that only applies when the tied boats happen to be of the same handicap, which arguably isn’t really fair.

The elephant in the room though, is whether we really manage to record times accurately even to the nearest second. A couple of years back I had a finish on video for a rather busy race, and cross referenced it in slow motion back to the times and places we recorded at the time. It was worrying. To say the least it was worrying…

Jim C

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

[PvM4RM]

Hi Huw,

I agree with you, but the RRS don’t. As Mark Townsend stated in a previous response, the Si’s can’t make a change to a class rule unless the class rule permits the change. This in RRS 87 and the definition of “Rule (d)” defines the handicap or rating system to be the class rules. Therefore, unless the rating/handicap systems define rounding or contain a rule that allows the race committee to implement rounding, it’s not allowed by the RRS.

Cheers,

Peter

···

On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 1:48 PM, Huw Pearce huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Hi Peter,

Whether Jon can or cannot, in my view there is a question.

  How far do you take the number of rounding places? If the

rounding level is not specified in the rating then someone has to
make the decision! If the rating system specifies not specify the
rounding level then surely the SI’s should do so. So you are
really no better off

  At least if the timings are done to the second then generally

accepted mathematics is sensible, in that one does not produce an
answer that has decimal seconds for the corrected time. I would
also, respectfully, suggest that timing boats to better than a
second on the finish line is very subjective anyway for several
reasons.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Kind regards,

Huw

  On 26/12/16 19:13, Peter van Muyden

pvanmuyden@gmail.com [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Jon,

            Would it be possible to add a rounding on/off switch

to Sailwave? Currently, under PHRF & US PY, I
would have to manually check the results of boats that
are tied by Sailwave on corrected time and make
adjustments if needed… I’m sure that there are other
handicap systems that don’t require rounding. As Mark
already said, adding something to the sailing
instructions is not an option for most of these handicap
systems.

Peter

            On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:41 PM,

‘Richard Evans (GMail)’ richardf.evans@gmail.com
[sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com
wrote:

                          To complete the

picture for those new to using the PY
Scheme:

                          The RYA publishes a

document about using the Portsmouth
Yardstick scheme – at (click ). It includes
the following statement under “Scoring a
race”.

** Richard**

                                Evans

                                m: 07777670525

                                t: 01381 620746

​www.chanonry.org.uk

/results.html​

                                On 17

December 2016 at 19:11, Mark
Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com
[sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com
wrote:

                                              The Racing Rules of

Sailing Appendix A,
RRS A3 was changed in
the 2005-2008 rule
book to delete the
phrase "*** corrected
to the nearest
second*** ". This
change then left
the determination of
if to round to the
nearest second to the
handicap system (see
below).

** 2001-2004
Racing Rules of
Sailing**

** A3 STARTING
TIMES AND FINISHING
PLACES**
The time of a boat’s
starting signal shall
be her starting time,
and the order
in which boats finish
a race shall determine
their finishing
places. However,
when a handicap system
is used a boat’s
elapsed time*** ,
corrected to the
nearest second,***
shall determine her
finishing place.

** 2005-2008
Racing Rules of
Sailing**

** A3 STARTING
TIMES AND
FINISHING PLACES**

                                                The time of a boat’s

starting signal
shall be her
starting time, and

                                                the order in which

boats finish a race
shall determine
their finishing

                                                places. However,

when a handicap or
rating system is
used a boat’s

                                                corrected time shall

determine her
finishing place.

                                              Some handicap systems

now include language
to round to the
nearest second and
some do not. US PHRF
does not include
language to correct to
the nearest second.

                                                  The

notice of race or
sailing
instructions may change
the handicap system
to correct
to the nearest
second. T his
would be a class rule
change (see definition
of
rule ) and,
unless the handicap
permits the change,
would need to comply
with RRS 87, which
requires written
permission of the
handicap association
for the change to
be displayed on the
official notice
board.

                                              Mark

Townsend

---

From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
<sailwave@yahoogroups.com >
on behalf of
Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk
[sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent:
Wednesday,
December 14, 2016
5:23 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave]
Result
culculations

                                                      Before my

time Huw!

                                                      I'm

not saying
we’re not in a
better place,
just that it’s
only a game
after all, and
there will be
winners and
losers…

                                                      William

Carruthers
Sent from
my iPhone

/)/)/)___/)

(_(___(__

                                                      On 14 Dec

2016, at
13:10, Huw
Pearce huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk
[sailwave]
<sailwave@yahoogroups.com >
wrote:

Hi William,

                                                      I remember

the days of a
draughtsman
board with
with sliding
bar to find
corrected time
from elapsed
hours and
minutes and
then adding on
the elapsed
seconds. We
have moved on
slightly

                                                      Happy

seasons
greetings to
all SUG
members.

Huw

                                                      On

14/12/2016
13:03,
Bassenthwaite
SC
club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk [sailwave] wrote:

                                                      There's

been some
great
discussion on
this topic but
at the end of
the day it is
handicap
racing, a
methodology of
putting
different
boats on an
equal footing.
There’s not a
lot of point
in using
decimal
seconds for
corrected time
bearing in
mind the level
of
(in)accuracy
of the
individual
boat ratings.

                                                      From

memory, when
logs were used
to calculate
corrected
times, elapsed
seconds were
just added to
the corrected
time I.e. Just
the minutes
were adjusted!

                                                      Hey

ho

                                                      Hope

you all have a
great
Christmas!

                                                      William

Carruthers
Sent from
my iPhone

/)/)/)___/)

(_(___(__

                                                      On 14 Dec

2016, at
12:17, yho@devboats.co.uk
[sailwave]
<sailwave@yahoogroups.com >
wrote:

                                                      Agree

with
everything
said about
rounding to
the second.

                                                      ---In

sailwave@yahoogroups.com ,
<op12no2@…> wrote
:

                                                      >

Also if boat A
is clearly
ahead of boat
B at the
finish but
looking at
your

                                                      >

watch they
have the same
time - I think
we decided it
was practical
to

                                                      >

just give them
+1 or -1 time.

                                                      That

is a bit of a
logical
problem
though. They
are racing on
handicap, so
if they are
equal on
corrected time
they tie.
Otherwise you
are putting in
a sort of
tiebreak that
only applies
when the tied
boats happen
to be of the
same handicap,
which arguably
isn’t really
fair.

                                                      The

elephant in
the room
though, is
whether we
really manage
to record
times
accurately
even to the
nearest
second. A
couple of
years back I
had a finish
on video for a
rather busy
race, and
cross
referenced it
in slow motion
back to the
times and
places we
recorded at
the time. It
was worrying.
To say the
least it was
worrying…

                                                      Jim

C

---

This
email has been
checked for
viruses by
Avast
antivirus
software.
www.avast.com

---

This
email has been
checked for
viruses by
Avast
antivirus
software.
www.avast.com

[Art_Engel2]

Peter,

I pretty much agree with Huw. I think this might be resolved by looking
at the RRS.

The rulebook cannot cover all possible actions by the RC or all possible
situations that might arise. So, under the RRS the RC is supposed to run
races using common sense and generally-accepted procedures but complying
with the specific mandates of the RRS. The RRS currently say nothing
about whether corrected times under a handicap or rating system should
be rounded or should be calculated to an accuracy of X significant
digits. Therefore, either rounding or not rounding complies with the RRS
so long as consistently applied to all boats. So, I don't believe any
mention of rounding need be made in the SIs on that account and either
approach would be considered fair and acceptable under the RRS.

One could argue that rounding to the nearest second is the
"generally-accepted procedure" based on well-understood principles of
significant digits in the scientific and engineering fields (the final
result cannot have more accuracy than the input - meaning that for
finish or elapsed times input in whole seconds the results should be in
whole seconds as well). However, I wouldn't go that far and would merely
say that either rounding to the nearest second or some fraction thereof
(tenths, hundredths, thousandths, etc) or not rounding - any of those
would comply with the RRS so long as done in a consistent way (fairness
is applying the same rule to everyone, even if the rule itself makes
little or no rational sense). Of course, the level of accuracy should be
displayed in the results of if corrected times are rounded to 5 decimal
places then that is how they probably should be displayed on the
published results (which is a good argument in itself for rounding to
the nearest whole second).

Art

PS - I note that any factional seconds entered in finish times (e.g.,
19:11:36.8) are ignored when Sailwave calculates elapsed times and if
you enter fractional seconds with elapsed times (e.g., 0:41:36.8) then
Sailwave completely messes up the calculation. I have no problem with
how Sailwave currently operates since RC timing is lucky to be accurate
to the nearest second much less the nearest tenth or hundredth of a second.

···

On 12/26/2016 12:48 PM, Huw Pearce huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Peter,

Whether Jon can or cannot, in my view there is a question.

How far do you take the number of rounding places? If the rounding level is not
specified in the rating then someone has to make the decision! If the rating
system specifies not specify the rounding level then surely the SI's should do
so. So you are really no better off

At least if the timings are done to the second then generally accepted
mathematics is sensible, in that one does not produce an answer that has decimal
seconds for the corrected time. I would also, respectfully, suggest that timing
boats to better than a second on the finish line is very subjective anyway for
several reasons.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Kind regards,

Huw

On 26/12/16 19:13, Peter van Muyden pvanmuyden@gmail.com [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Jon,

Would it be possible to add a rounding on/off switch to Sailwave? Currently,
under PHRF & US PY, I would have to manually check the results of boats that
are tied by Sailwave on corrected time and make adjustments if needed.. I'm
sure that there are other handicap systems that don't require rounding. As
Mark already said, adding something to the sailing instructions is not an
option for most of these handicap systems.

Peter

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:41 PM, 'Richard Evans (GMail)' >> richardf.evans@gmail.com <mailto:richardf.evans@gmail.com> [sailwave] >> <sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

    To complete the picture for those new to using the PY Scheme:

    The RYA publishes a document about using the Portsmouth Yardstick scheme –
    at (click
    <http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/PY%20Documentation/PY-Using%20the%20scheme.pdf>).
    It includes the following statement under "Scoring a race".

    Inline images 1

    *Richard *
    Evans
    m: 07777670525
    t: 01381 620746
    ​www.chanonry.org.uk <http://www.chanonry.org.uk>
    /results.html​

    On 17 December 2016 at 19:11, Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com >> <mailto:s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com> [sailwave] <sailwave@yahoogroups.com >> <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

        The Racing Rules of Sailing Appendix A, RRS A3 was changed in the
        2005-2008 rule book to delete the phrase "*/_corrected to the nearest
        second_/* ". This change then left the determination of if to round
        to the nearest second to the handicap system (see below).

        *_2001-2004 Racing Rules of Sailing_*

        *A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING PLACES*
        The time of a boat’s starting signal shall be her starting time, and
        the order
        in which boats finish a race shall determine their finishing places.
        However,
        when a handicap system is used a boat’s elapsed time*_/, corrected to the
        nearest second,/_* shall determine her finishing place.

        *_2005-2008 Racing Rules of Sailing_*

        *A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING PLACES*
        The time of a boat’s starting signal shall be her starting time, and
        the order in which boats finish a race shall determine their finishing
        places. However, when a handicap or rating system is used a boat’s
        corrected time shall determine her finishing place.

        Some handicap systems now include language to round to the nearest
        second and some do not. US PHRF does not include language to correct
        to the nearest second.

        The notice of race or sailing instructions may change the handicap
        system to correct to the nearest second. This would be a class rule
        change (see definition of /rule/) and, unless the handicap permits the
        change, would need to comply with RRS 87, which requires written
        permission of the handicap association for the change to be displayed
        on the official notice board.

        Mark Townsend

        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        *From:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
        <sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com>> on behalf
        of Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk
        <mailto:club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk> [sailwave]
        <sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com>>
        *Sent:* Wednesday, December 14, 2016 5:23 AM
        *To:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
        *Subject:* Re: [sailwave] Result culculations
        Before my time Huw!

        I'm not saying we're not in a better place, just that it's only a game
        after all, and there will be winners and losers...

        William Carruthers
        Sent from my iPhone
        /)___/)___/)___/)
        __(\___(\___(\__

        On 14 Dec 2016, at 13:10, Huw Pearce huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk >> <mailto:huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk> [sailwave] <sailwave@yahoogroups.com >> <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

        Hi William,

        I remember the days of a draughtsman board with with sliding bar to
        find corrected time from elapsed hours and minutes and then adding on
        the elapsed seconds. We have moved on slightly

        Happy seasons greetings to all SUG members.

        Huw

        On 14/12/2016 13:03, Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk >> <mailto:club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk> [sailwave] wrote:

        There's been some great discussion on this topic but at the end of
        the day it is handicap racing, a methodology of putting different
        boats on an equal footing. There's not a lot of point in using
        decimal seconds for corrected time bearing in mind the level of
        (in)accuracy of the individual boat ratings.

        From memory, when logs were used to calculate corrected times,
        elapsed seconds were just added to the corrected time I.e. Just the
        minutes were adjusted!

        Hey ho

        Hope you all have a great Christmas!

        William Carruthers
        Sent from my iPhone
        /)___/)___/)___/)
        __(\___(\___(\__

        On 14 Dec 2016, at 12:17, yho@devboats.co.uk >>> <mailto:yho@devboats.co.uk> [sailwave] <sailwave@yahoogroups.com >>> <mailto:sailwav%0A%20e@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

        Agree with everything said about rounding to the second.

        —In sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com>,
        <op12no2@…> <mailto:op12no2@…> wrote :

        > Also if boat A is clearly ahead of boat B at the finish but looking
        at your
        > watch they have the same time - I think we decided it was practical to
        > just give them +1 or -1 time.

        That is a bit of a logical problem though. They are racing on
        handicap, so if they are equal on corrected time they tie. Otherwise
        you are putting in a sort of tiebreak that only applies when the tied
        boats happen to be of the same handicap, which arguably isn't really
        fair.

        The elephant in the room though, is whether we really manage to
        record times accurately even to the nearest second. A couple of years
        back I had a finish on video for a rather busy race, and cross
        referenced it in slow motion back to the times and places we recorded
        at the time. It was worrying. To say the least it was worrying...

        Jim C

        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Avast logo <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>

        This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
        www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>

        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Avast logo <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>

        This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
        www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>

[Art_Engel2]

As you'll see in a separate longer posting, the RRS don't mention
rounding so I believe it would not be accurate to say that they require
calculation to an infinite number of decimal places. More in the other
posting.

Art

···

On 12/26/2016 2:48 PM, Peter van Muyden pvanmuyden@gmail.com [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Huw,

I agree with you, but the RRS don't. As Mark Townsend stated in a previous
response, the Si's can't make a change to a class rule unless the class
rule permits the change. This in RRS 87 and the definition of "Rule (d)"
defines the handicap or rating system to be the class rules. Therefore,
unless the rating/handicap systems define rounding or contain a rule that
allows the race committee to implement rounding, it's not allowed by the
RRS.

Cheers,
Peter

On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 1:48 PM, Huw Pearce huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk > [sailwave] <sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Peter,

Whether Jon can or cannot, in my view there is a question.

How far do you take the number of rounding places? If the rounding level
is not specified in the rating then someone has to make the decision! If
the rating system specifies not specify the rounding level then surely the
SI's should do so. So you are really no better off

At least if the timings are done to the second then generally accepted
mathematics is sensible, in that one does not produce an answer that has
decimal seconds for the corrected time. I would also, respectfully,
suggest that timing boats to better than a second on the finish line is
very subjective anyway for several reasons.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Kind regards,

Huw

On 26/12/16 19:13, Peter van Muyden pvanmuyden@gmail.com [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Jon,

Would it be possible to add a rounding on/off switch to Sailwave?
Currently, under PHRF & US PY, I would have to manually check the results
of boats that are tied by Sailwave on corrected time and make adjustments
if needed.. I'm sure that there are other handicap systems that don't
require rounding. As Mark already said, adding something to the sailing
instructions is not an option for most of these handicap systems.

Peter

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:41 PM, 'Richard Evans (GMail)' >> richardf.evans@gmail.com [sailwave] <sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

To complete the picture for those new to using the PY Scheme:

The RYA publishes a document about using the Portsmouth Yardstick scheme
– at (click
<http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/PY%20Documentation/PY-Using%20the%20scheme.pdf>).
It includes the following statement under "Scoring a race".

[image: Inline images 1]

*Richard *
Evans
m: 07777670525
t: 01381 620746
​www.chanonry.org.uk
/results.html​

On 17 December 2016 at 19:11, Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com >>> [sailwave] <sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

The Racing Rules of Sailing Appendix A, RRS A3 was changed in the
2005-2008 rule book to delete the phrase "*corrected to the nearest
second* ". This change then left the determination of if to round to
the nearest second to the handicap system (see below).

*2001-2004 Racing Rules of Sailing*
*A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING PLACES*
The time of a boat’s starting signal shall be her starting time, and the
order
in which boats finish a race shall determine their finishing places.
However,
when a handicap system is used a boat’s elapsed time
*, corrected to the nearest second,* shall determine her finishing
place.

*2005-2008 Racing Rules of Sailing*
*A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING PLACES*
The time of a boat’s starting signal shall be her starting time, and
the order in which boats finish a race shall determine their finishing
places. However, when a handicap or rating system is used a boat’s
corrected time shall determine her finishing place.

Some handicap systems now include language to round to the nearest
second and some do not. US PHRF does not include language to correct to the
nearest second.

The notice of race or sailing instructions may change the handicap
system to correct to the nearest second. This would be a class rule
change (see definition of *rule*) and, unless the handicap permits the
change, would need to comply with RRS 87, which requires written
permission of the handicap association for the change to be displayed on
the official notice board.

Mark Townsend

------------------------------
*From:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com <sailwave@yahoogroups.com> on behalf
of Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk [sailwave] <
sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 14, 2016 5:23 AM
*To:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com
*Subject:* Re: [sailwave] Result culculations

Before my time Huw!

I'm not saying we're not in a better place, just that it's only a game
after all, and there will be winners and losers...

William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone
/)___/)___/)___/)
__(\___(\___(\__

On 14 Dec 2016, at 13:10, Huw Pearce huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk [sailwave] < >>>> sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi William,

I remember the days of a draughtsman board with with sliding bar to find
corrected time from elapsed hours and minutes and then adding on the
elapsed seconds. We have moved on slightly

Happy seasons greetings to all SUG members.

Huw

On 14/12/2016 13:03, Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk >>>> [sailwave] wrote:

There's been some great discussion on this topic but at the end of the
day it is handicap racing, a methodology of putting different boats on an
equal footing. There's not a lot of point in using decimal seconds for
corrected time bearing in mind the level of (in)accuracy of the individual
boat ratings.

From memory, when logs were used to calculate corrected times, elapsed
seconds were just added to the corrected time I.e. Just the minutes were
adjusted!

Hey ho

Hope you all have a great Christmas!

William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone
/)___/)___/)___/)
__(\___(\___(\__

On 14 Dec 2016, at 12:17, yho@devboats.co.uk [sailwave] < >>>> sailwave@yahoogroups.com <sailwav%0A%20e@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

Agree with everything said about rounding to the second.

---In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, <op12no2@...> <op12no2@...> wrote :

Also if boat A is clearly ahead of boat B at the finish but looking at

your

watch they have the same time - I think we decided it was practical to
just give them +1 or -1 time.

That is a bit of a logical problem though. They are racing on handicap,
so if they are equal on corrected time they tie. Otherwise you are putting
in a sort of tiebreak that only applies when the tied boats happen to be of
the same handicap, which arguably isn't really fair.

The elephant in the room though, is whether we really manage to record
times accurately even to the nearest second. A couple of years back I had a
finish on video for a rather busy race, and cross referenced it in slow
motion back to the times and places we recorded at the time. It was
worrying. To say the least it was worrying...

Jim C

------------------------------
[image: Avast logo] <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>

------------------------------
[image: Avast logo] <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>

[IanF]

The RYA PY Scheme states
“All times in seconds, any decimals are rounded to the nearest whole figure with a decimal of 0.5 and above rounded up and less than 0.5 down”
which is patently sensible, given that we are not able to record a finish time more accurately than to the nearest second.
Also the RYA NHC Scheme also rounds to the nearest second
“All corrected times shall be rounded to the nearest second with 0.5 seconds being rounded up.”

As an engineer who was involved in taking measurements in all sorts of situations I have to agree with Art that there can be no valid reason to calculate a corrected time to fractions of a second, when the rating of the crafts involved are averaged over a number of similar craft, and the recorded finish time is only to the nearest second.

IMO all rating systems should include rounding to the nearest second. Those that do not need to be changed.

Ian Frogley

···

On 26 December 2016 at 23:16 “Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave]” sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

As you’ll see in a separate longer posting, the RRS don’t mention
rounding so I believe it would not be accurate to say that they require
calculation to an infinite number of decimal places. More in the other
posting.

Art

On 12/26/2016 2:48 PM, Peter van Muyden pvanmuyden@gmail.com [sailwave] > wrote:

Hi Huw,

I agree with you, but the RRS don’t. As Mark Townsend stated in a previous
response, the Si’s can’t make a change to a class rule unless the class
rule permits the change. This in RRS 87 and the definition of “Rule (d)”
defines the handicap or rating system to be the class rules. Therefore,
unless the rating/handicap systems define rounding or contain a rule that
allows the race committee to implement rounding, it’s not allowed by the
RRS.

Cheers,
Peter

On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 1:48 PM, Huw Pearce huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk > > [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Hi Peter,

Whether Jon can or cannot, in my view there is a question.

How far do you take the number of rounding places? If the rounding level
is not specified in the rating then someone has to make the decision! If
the rating system specifies not specify the rounding level then surely the
SI’s should do so. So you are really no better off

At least if the timings are done to the second then generally accepted
mathematics is sensible, in that one does not produce an answer that has
decimal seconds for the corrected time. I would also, respectfully,
suggest that timing boats to better than a second on the finish line is
very subjective anyway for several reasons.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Kind regards,

Huw

On 26/12/16 19:13, Peter van Muyden pvanmuyden@gmail.com [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Jon,

Would it be possible to add a rounding on/off switch to Sailwave?
Currently, under PHRF & US PY, I would have to manually check the results
of boats that are tied by Sailwave on corrected time and make adjustments
if needed… I’m sure that there are other handicap systems that don’t
require rounding. As Mark already said, adding something to the sailing
instructions is not an option for most of these handicap systems.

Peter

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:41 PM, ‘Richard Evans (GMail)’ > >> richardf.evans@gmail.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

To complete the picture for those new to using the PY Scheme:

The RYA publishes a document about using the Portsmouth Yardstick scheme
– at (click
http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/PY%20Documentation/PY-Using%20the%20scheme.pdf).
It includes the following statement under “Scoring a race”.

[image: Inline images 1]

*Richard *
Evans
m: 07777670525
t: 01381 620746
​www.chanonry.org.uk
/results.html​

On 17 December 2016 at 19:11, Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com > >>> [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

The Racing Rules of Sailing Appendix A, RRS A3 was changed in the
2005-2008 rule book to delete the phrase "corrected to the nearest
second ". This change then left the determination of if to round to
the nearest second to the handicap system (see below).

2001-2004 Racing Rules of Sailing
A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING PLACES
The time of a boat’s starting signal shall be her starting time, and the
order
in which boats finish a race shall determine their finishing places.
However,
when a handicap system is used a boat’s elapsed time
, corrected to the nearest second, shall determine her finishing
place.

2005-2008 Racing Rules of Sailing
A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING PLACES
The time of a boat’s starting signal shall be her starting time, and
the order in which boats finish a race shall determine their finishing
places. However, when a handicap or rating system is used a boat’s
corrected time shall determine her finishing place.

Some handicap systems now include language to round to the nearest
second and some do not. US PHRF does not include language to correct to the
nearest second.

The notice of race or sailing instructions may change the handicap
system to correct to the nearest second. This would be a class rule
change (see definition of rule) and, unless the handicap permits the
change, would need to comply with RRS 87, which requires written
permission of the handicap association for the change to be displayed on
the official notice board.

Mark Townsend

---

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf
of Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk [sailwave] <
sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 5:23 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Result culculations

Before my time Huw!

I’m not saying we’re not in a better place, just that it’s only a game
after all, and there will be winners and losers…

William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone
/)/)/)/)
(_(_(_

On 14 Dec 2016, at 13:10, Huw Pearce huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk [sailwave] < > >>>> sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi William,

I remember the days of a draughtsman board with with sliding bar to find
corrected time from elapsed hours and minutes and then adding on the
elapsed seconds. We have moved on slightly

Happy seasons greetings to all SUG members.

Huw

On 14/12/2016 13:03, Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk > >>>> [sailwave] wrote:

There’s been some great discussion on this topic but at the end of the
day it is handicap racing, a methodology of putting different boats on an
equal footing. There’s not a lot of point in using decimal seconds for
corrected time bearing in mind the level of (in)accuracy of the individual
boat ratings.

From memory, when logs were used to calculate corrected times, elapsed
seconds were just added to the corrected time I.e. Just the minutes were
adjusted!

Hey ho

Hope you all have a great Christmas!

William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone
/)/)/)/)
(_(_(_

On 14 Dec 2016, at 12:17, yho@devboats.co.uk [sailwave] < > >>>> sailwave@yahoogroups.com sailwav %20e@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Agree with everything said about rounding to the second.

—In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, <op12no2@…> <op12no2@…> wrote :

Also if boat A is clearly ahead of boat B at the finish but looking at
your
watch they have the same time - I think we decided it was practical to
just give them +1 or -1 time.

That is a bit of a logical problem though. They are racing on handicap,
so if they are equal on corrected time they tie. Otherwise you are putting
in a sort of tiebreak that only applies when the tied boats happen to be of
the same handicap, which arguably isn’t really fair.

The elephant in the room though, is whether we really manage to record
times accurately even to the nearest second. A couple of years back I had a
finish on video for a rather busy race, and cross referenced it in slow
motion back to the times and places we recorded at the time. It was
worrying. To say the least it was worrying…

Jim C

---

[image: Avast logo] https://www.avast.com/antivirus

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com https://www.avast.com/antivirus

---

[image: Avast logo] https://www.avast.com/antivirus

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com https://www.avast.com/antivirus

---

Posted by: Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!- On-Line Sailwave help…http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Townsend’s Sailwave User Guide is available from http://www.sailwave.com/download/sailwave/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~ Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG please send blank email to sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Yahoo Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
sailwave-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:
https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

[pete]

Dear all,

I’ve been following this thread, and have seen it happen within our club during handicap racing.

Two finishers in the same class are a second apart in finishing. The leading boat has clearly beaten the next finisher.

When the numbers are put into sailwave, and the handicaps applied, and the elapsed times are calculated according to the RYA rules, either situation can occur:

Both boats receive the same time, and score the same points in the race.

Each boat receives a different time, with the leading boat getting the lower points.

If you are in control of the results, and have enough time space, you can “adjust” the times to give the correct result.

I have found this issue very frustrating on a number of occasions, but I’m unable to control the input/output. You beat a boat on the water, yet the results say it was a tie.

I have thought about calculating to 0.1 of a second, but this requires a change to rules and results program.

Regards

Pete

···

On 27 Dec 2016, at 07:22, ‘e-mail ian.frogley’
ian.frogley@ntlworld.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

The RYA PY Scheme states

“All times in seconds, any decimals are rounded to the nearest whole figure with a decimal of 0.5 and above rounded up and less than 0.5 down”

which is patently sensible, given that we are not able to record a finish time more accurately than to the nearest second.

Also the RYA NHC Scheme also rounds to the nearest second

“All corrected times shall be rounded to the nearest second with 0.5 seconds being rounded up.”

As an engineer who was involved in taking measurements in all sorts of situations I have to agree with Art that there can be no valid reason to calculate a corrected time to fractions of a second, when the rating of the crafts involved are averaged over a number
of similar craft, and the recorded finish time is only to the nearest second.

IMO all rating systems should include rounding to the nearest second. Those that do not need to be changed.

Ian Frogley

On 26 December 2016 at 23:16 “Art Engel
artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave]” sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

As you’ll see in a separate longer posting, the RRS don’t mention
rounding so I believe it would not be accurate to say that they require
calculation to an infinite number of decimal places. More in the other
posting.

Art

On 12/26/2016 2:48 PM, Peter van Muyden pvanmuyden@gmail.com [sailwave]
wrote:

Hi Huw,

I agree with you, but the RRS don’t. As Mark Townsend stated in a previous
response, the Si’s can’t make a change to a class rule unless the class
rule permits the change. This in RRS 87 and the definition of “Rule (d)”
defines the handicap or rating system to be the class rules. Therefore,
unless the rating/handicap systems define rounding or contain a rule that
allows the race committee to implement rounding, it’s not allowed by the
RRS.

Cheers,
Peter

On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 1:48 PM, Huw Pearce
huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk
[sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Hi Peter,

Whether Jon can or cannot, in my view there is a question.

How far do you take the number of rounding places? If the rounding level
is not specified in the rating then someone has to make the decision! If
the rating system specifies not specify the rounding level then surely the
SI’s should do so. So you are really no better off

At least if the timings are done to the second then generally accepted
mathematics is sensible, in that one does not produce an answer that has
decimal seconds for the corrected time. I would also, respectfully,
suggest that timing boats to better than a second on the finish line is
very subjective anyway for several reasons.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Kind regards,

Huw

On 26/12/16 19:13, Peter van Muyden pvanmuyden@gmail.com [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Jon,

Would it be possible to add a rounding on/off switch to Sailwave?
Currently, under PHRF & US PY, I would have to manually check the results
of boats that are tied by Sailwave on corrected time and make adjustments
if needed… I’m sure that there are other handicap systems that don’t
require rounding. As Mark already said, adding something to the sailing
instructions is not an option for most of these handicap systems.

Peter

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:41 PM, ‘Richard Evans (GMail)’
richardf.evans@gmail.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

To complete the picture for those new to using the PY Scheme:

The RYA publishes a document about using the Portsmouth Yardstick scheme
– at (click
<http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/PY%20Documentation/PY-Using%20the%20scheme.pdf>).
It includes the following statement under “Scoring a race”.

[image: Inline images 1]

*Richard *
Evans
m: 07777670525
t: 01381 620746
​www.chanonry.org.uk
/results.html​

On 17 December 2016 at 19:11, Mark Townsend
s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

[sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

The Racing Rules of Sailing Appendix A, RRS A3 was changed in the
2005-2008 rule book to delete the phrase "corrected to the nearest
second ". This change then left the determination of if to round to
the nearest second to the handicap system (see below).

2001-2004 Racing Rules of Sailing
A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING PLACES
The time of a boat’s starting signal shall be her starting time, and the
order
in which boats finish a race shall determine their finishing places.
However,
when a handicap system is used a boat’s elapsed time
, corrected to the nearest second, shall determine her finishing
place.

2005-2008 Racing Rules of Sailing
A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING PLACES
The time of a boat’s starting signal shall be her starting time, and
the order in which boats finish a race shall determine their finishing
places. However, when a handicap or rating system is used a boat’s
corrected time shall determine her finishing place.

Some handicap systems now include language to round to the nearest
second and some do not. US PHRF does not include language to correct to the
nearest second.

The notice of race or sailing instructions may change the handicap
system to correct to the nearest second. This would be a class rule
change (see definition of rule) and, unless the handicap permits the
change, would need to comply with RRS 87, which requires written
permission of the handicap association for the change to be displayed on
the official notice board.

Mark Townsend

---

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com sailwave@yahoogroups.com on behalf
of Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk [sailwave] <
sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 5:23 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Result culculations

Before my time Huw!

I’m not saying we’re not in a better place, just that it’s only a game
after all, and there will be winners and losers…

William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone
/)/)/)/)
(_(_(_

On 14 Dec 2016, at 13:10, Huw Pearce
huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk [sailwave] <

sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi William,

I remember the days of a draughtsman board with with sliding bar to find
corrected time from elapsed hours and minutes and then adding on the
elapsed seconds. We have moved on slightly

Happy seasons greetings to all SUG members.

Huw

On 14/12/2016 13:03, Bassenthwaite SC
club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk

[sailwave] wrote:

There’s been some great discussion on this topic but at the end of the
day it is handicap racing, a methodology of putting different boats on an
equal footing. There’s not a lot of point in using decimal seconds for
corrected time bearing in mind the level of (in)accuracy of the individual
boat ratings.

From memory, when logs were used to calculate corrected times, elapsed
seconds were just added to the corrected time I.e. Just the minutes were
adjusted!

Hey ho

Hope you all have a great Christmas!

William Carruthers
Sent from my iPhone
/)/)/)/)
(_(_(_

On 14 Dec 2016, at 12:17, yho@devboats.co.uk [sailwave] <
sailwave@yahoogroups.com sailwav %20e@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Agree with everything said about rounding to the second.

—In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, <op12no2@…> <op12no2@…> wrote :

Also if boat A is clearly ahead of boat B at the finish but looking at
your
watch they have the same time - I think we decided it was practical to
just give them +1 or -1 time.

That is a bit of a logical problem though. They are racing on handicap,
so if they are equal on corrected time they tie. Otherwise you are putting
in a sort of tiebreak that only applies when the tied boats happen to be of
the same handicap, which arguably isn’t really fair.

The elephant in the room though, is whether we really manage to record
times accurately even to the nearest second. A couple of years back I had a
finish on video for a rather busy race, and cross referenced it in slow
motion back to the times and places we recorded at the time. It was
worrying. To say the least it was worrying…

Jim C

---

[image: Avast logo] <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>

---

[image: Avast logo] <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>

---

Posted by: Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!-
http://www.sailing.org/ -!-
http://www.sailwave.com/ -!- On-Line Sailwave help…http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Townsend’s Sailwave User Guide is available from

http://www.sailwave.com/download/sailwave/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~ Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG please send blank email to
sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Yahoo Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com

sailwave-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:
https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

[Art_Engel2]

Your situation isn't completely clear as you left out some important facts.

If your two boats have different handicap ratings then whether or not
they are tied is real and should stand.

If your two boats have the same handicap rating AND you are using TCF
(time on time) scoring then I suppose it is possible that under the RYA
rules (which it has been reported here require rounding to the nearest
second) you could have a tie based on rounding. In theory, the RYA rules
mandate that those boats should be scored tied and it would be improper
to artificially break the tie. Personally, I would consider the RYA
rules to be "wrong and unfair" in that situation and I'd simply change
one of the times for the two boats by 1 second. No one will ever know
and the results will be consistent with what the competitors saw on the
water. However, you need to recognize that you would be technically
breaking the RYA rules and in theory a competitor could ask for redress
if they knew the underlying facts. You'll have to decide for yourself
how you want to handle this.

This is a "flaw" inherent in TCF scoring. I'd have a problem if Sailwave
scored other than required by the RYA rules. As I said, I'd "fix" the
problem by adjusting one of the two times before publishing any results.
I wouldn't want any scoring software to try and "fix" this kind of
problem, which comes from the handicap/rating system and NOT from the
software itself.

This points out what I think we all understand - handicap/rating systems
all have flaws and quirks that many would consider make them
"inaccurate" in the bigger picture. Such is life!

Art

PS - I suspect the RYA would completely (but possibly unofficially)
support the "fix" of adjusting one of the two times. Their rules won't
cover it because they would consider it a "rare" event.

···

On 12/27/2016 2:29 PM, pete scrutton pete141820@hotmail.co.uk [sailwave] wrote:

Dear all,

I've been following this thread, and have seen it happen within our
club during handicap racing.

Two finishers in the same class are a second apart in finishing. The
leading boat has clearly beaten the next finisher.

When the numbers are put into sailwave, and the handicaps applied,
and the elapsed times are calculated according to the RYA rules,
either situation can occur:

Both boats receive the same time, and score the same points in the
race. Each boat receives a different time, with the leading boat
getting the lower points.

If you are in control of the results, and have enough time space, you
can "adjust" the times to give the correct result.

I have found this issue very frustrating on a number of occasions,
but I'm unable to control the input/output. You beat a boat on the
water, yet the results say it was a tie.

I have thought about calculating to 0.1 of a second, but this
requires a change to rules and results program.

Regards

Pete

Sent from my iPad

On 27 Dec 2016, at 07:22, 'e-mail ian.frogley' > ian.frogley@ntlworld.com<mailto:ian.frogley@ntlworld.com> [sailwave] > <sailwave@yahoogroups.com<mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:

The RYA PY Scheme states "All times in seconds, any decimals are
rounded to the nearest whole figure with a decimal of 0.5 and above
rounded up and less than 0.5 down" which is patently sensible, given
that we are not able to record a finish time more accurately than to
the nearest second. Also the RYA NHC Scheme also rounds to the
nearest second "All corrected times shall be rounded to the nearest
second with 0.5 seconds being rounded up."

As an engineer who was involved in taking measurements in all sorts
of situations I have to agree with Art that there can be no valid
reason to calculate a corrected time to fractions of a second, when
the rating of the crafts involved are averaged over a number of
similar craft, and the recorded finish time is only to the nearest
second.

IMO all rating systems should include rounding to the nearest second.
Those that do not need to be changed.

Ian Frogley

[Huw2]

Hi Pete,

As Art said in his reply it is not clear from your information:

• if the two boats in question are of the same class

• if the two boats in question have the same rating

• what rating system you are using
  If you could clarify this and perhaps attach the Sailwave.BLW
  file in which these circumstances have happened then they can be
  looked at.

  Assuming the 3 points above, I have seen this in the past [using
  

RYA Portsmouth Yardstick scheme] and like Art said I made a slight
adjustment to finish time(s), so corrected order came out as on
the water. It is possible for this to happen under RYA Portsmouth
Yardstick rating and NHC rating system due to the specified
rounding rules in these rating schemes. Where one corrected time
without rounding would be in the range n.5 to less than [n+1].0
and the other corrected time in the range n+1 to less than
[n+1].5, applying RYA statement on rounding the corrected time of
both boats comes out at n.

  Whatever rounding level of decimal places is applied it could

still happen, but appreciate will be less likely.

Kind regards,

Huw

···

On 27/12/2016 22:29, pete scrutton
[sailwave] wrote:

pete141820@hotmail.co.uk

Dear all,

          I've been following this

thread, and have seen it happen within our club during
handicap racing.

          Two finishers in the same class

are a second apart in finishing. The leading boat has
clearly beaten the next finisher.

          When the numbers are put into

sailwave, and the handicaps applied, and the elapsed times
are calculated according to the RYA rules, either
situation can occur:

          Both boats receive the same

time, and score the same points in the race.

          Each boat receives a different

time, with the leading boat getting the lower points.

          If you are in control of the

results, and have enough time space, you can “adjust” the
times to give the correct result.

          I have found this issue very

frustrating on a number of occasions, but I’m unable to
control the input/output. You beat a boat on the water,
yet the results say it was a tie.

          I have thought about

calculating to 0.1 of a second, but this requires a change
to rules and results program.

Regards

Pete

          Sent from my iPad

          On 27 Dec 2016, at 07:22, 'e-mail ian.frogley'
            ian.frogley@ntlworld.com [sailwave] <sailwave@yahoogroups.com              >

wrote:

The RYA PY Scheme states

                  "All times in seconds, any decimals are rounded to

the nearest whole figure with a decimal of 0.5 and
above rounded up and less than 0.5 down"

                  which is patently sensible, given that we are not

able to record a finish time more accurately than
to the nearest second.

                  Also the RYA NHC Scheme also rounds to the nearest

second

                  "All corrected times shall be rounded to the

nearest second with 0.5 seconds being rounded up."

                  As an engineer who was involved in taking

measurements in all sorts of situations I have to
agree with Art that there can be no valid reason
to calculate a corrected time to fractions of a
second, when the rating of the crafts involved are
averaged over a number of similar craft, and the
recorded finish time is only to the nearest
second.

                  IMO all rating systems should include rounding to

the nearest second. Those that do not need to be
changed.

                  Ian Frogley

On 26 December 2016 at 23:16 “Art Engel
artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave]” <sailwave@yahoogroups.com >
wrote:

                  As you'll see in a separate longer posting, the

RRS don’t mention
rounding so I believe it would not be accurate to
say that they require
calculation to an infinite number of decimal
places. More in the other
posting.

                  Art

                  On 12/26/2016 2:48 PM, Peter van Muyden pvanmuyden@gmail.com
                  [sailwave]
                  wrote:
                  > Hi Huw,
                  >
                  > I agree with you, but the RRS don't. As Mark

Townsend stated in a previous
> response, the Si’s can’t make a change to a
class rule unless the class
> rule permits the change. This in RRS 87 and
the definition of “Rule (d)”
> defines the handicap or rating system to be
the class rules. Therefore,
> unless the rating/handicap systems define
rounding or contain a rule that
> allows the race committee to implement
rounding, it’s not allowed by the
> RRS.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 1:48 PM, Huw Pearce
huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk
> [sailwave] <sailwave@yahoogroups.com >
wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Hi Peter,
>>
>> Whether Jon can or cannot, in my view
there is a question.
>>
>> How far do you take the number of
rounding places? If the rounding level
>> is not specified in the rating then
someone has to make the decision! If
>> the rating system specifies not specify
the rounding level then surely the
>> SI’s should do so. So you are really no
better off
>>
>> At least if the timings are done to the
second then generally accepted
>> mathematics is sensible, in that one does
not produce an answer that has
>> decimal seconds for the corrected time. I
would also, respectfully,
>> suggest that timing boats to better than
a second on the finish line is
>> very subjective anyway for several
reasons.
>>
>> Just my 2 cents worth.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Huw
>>
>> On 26/12/16 19:13, Peter van Muyden pvanmuyden@gmail.com
[sailwave] wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Jon,
>>
>> Would it be possible to add a rounding
on/off switch to Sailwave?
>> Currently, under PHRF & US PY, I
would have to manually check the results
>> of boats that are tied by Sailwave on
corrected time and make adjustments
>> if needed… I’m sure that there are other
handicap systems that don’t
>> require rounding. As Mark already said,
adding something to the sailing
>> instructions is not an option for most of
these handicap systems.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:41 PM, ‘Richard
Evans (GMail)’
>> richardf.evans@gmail.com
[sailwave] <sailwave@yahoogroups.com >
wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> To complete the picture for those new
to using the PY Scheme:
>>>
>>> The RYA publishes a document about
using the Portsmouth Yardstick scheme
>>> – at (click
>>> <http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/PY%20Documentation/PY-Using%20the%20scheme.pdf>).
>>> It includes the following statement
under “Scoring a race”.
>>>
>>> [image: Inline images 1]
>>>
>>>
>>> *Richard *
>>> Evans
>>> m: 07777670525
>>> t: 01381 620746
>>> ​www.chanonry.org.uk
>>> /results.html​
>>>
>>> On 17 December 2016 at 19:11, Mark
Townsend
s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com
>>> [sailwave] <sailwave@yahoogroups.com >
wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Racing Rules of Sailing
Appendix A, RRS A3 was changed in the
>>>> 2005-2008 rule book to delete the
phrase "corrected to the nearest
>>>> second ". This change then left
the determination of if to round to
>>>> the nearest second to the
handicap system (see below).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2001-2004 Racing Rules of
Sailing
>>>> A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING
PLACES
>>>> The time of a boat’s starting
signal shall be her starting time, and the
>>>> order
>>>> in which boats finish a race
shall determine their finishing places.
>>>> However,
>>>> when a handicap system is used a
boat’s elapsed time
>>>> , corrected to the nearest
second, shall determine her finishing
>>>> place.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2005-2008 Racing Rules of
Sailing
>>>> A3 STARTING TIMES AND FINISHING
PLACES
>>>> The time of a boat’s starting
signal shall be her starting time, and
>>>> the order in which boats finish a
race shall determine their finishing
>>>> places. However, when a handicap
or rating system is used a boat’s
>>>> corrected time shall determine
her finishing place.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some handicap systems now include
language to round to the nearest
>>>> second and some do not. US PHRF
does not include language to correct to the
>>>> nearest second.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The notice of race or sailing
instructions may change the handicap
>>>> system to correct to the nearest
second. This would be a class rule
>>>> change (see definition of rule)
and, unless the handicap permits the
>>>> change, would need to comply with
RRS 87, which requires written
>>>> permission of the handicap
association for the change to be displayed on
>>>> the official notice board.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mark Townsend
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
<sailwave@yahoogroups.com >
on behalf
>>>> of Bassenthwaite SC club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk
[sailwave] <
>>>> sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 14,
2016 5:23 AM
>>>> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [sailwave] Result
culculations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Before my time Huw!
>>>>
>>>> I’m not saying we’re not in a
better place, just that it’s only a game
>>>> after all, and there will be
winners and losers…
>>>>
>>>> William Carruthers
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> /)/)/)/)
>>>> (_(_(_
>>>>
>>>> On 14 Dec 2016, at 13:10, Huw
Pearce
huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk [sailwave] <
>>>> sailwave@yahoogroups.com >
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi William,
>>>>
>>>> I remember the days of a
draughtsman board with with sliding bar to find
>>>> corrected time from elapsed hours
and minutes and then adding on the
>>>> elapsed seconds. We have moved on
slightly
>>>>
>>>> Happy seasons greetings to all
SUG members.
>>>>
>>>> Huw
>>>>
>>>> On 14/12/2016 13:03,
Bassenthwaite SC
club@bassenthwaite-sc.org.uk
>>>> [sailwave] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There’s been some great
discussion on this topic but at the end of the
>>>> day it is handicap racing, a
methodology of putting different boats on an
>>>> equal footing. There’s not a lot
of point in using decimal seconds for
>>>> corrected time bearing in mind
the level of (in)accuracy of the individual
>>>> boat ratings.
>>>>
>>>> From memory, when logs were used
to calculate corrected times, elapsed
>>>> seconds were just added to the
corrected time I.e. Just the minutes were
>>>> adjusted!
>>>>
>>>> Hey ho
>>>>
>>>> Hope you all have a great
Christmas!
>>>>
>>>> William Carruthers
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> /)/)/)/)
>>>> (_(_(_
>>>>
>>>> On 14 Dec 2016, at 12:17, yho@devboats.co.uk
[sailwave] <
>>>> sailwave@yahoogroups.com
<sailwav%0A%20e@yahoogroups.com >>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Agree with everything said about
rounding to the second.
>>>>
>>>> —In sailwave@yahoogroups.com ,
wrote :

Also if boat A is clearly
ahead of boat B at the finish but looking at

your

watch they have the same time

• I think we decided it was practical to

just give them +1 or -1 time.

That is a bit of a logical
problem though. They are racing on handicap,

so if they are equal on corrected
time they tie. Otherwise you are putting

in a sort of tiebreak that only
applies when the tied boats happen to be of

the same handicap, which arguably
isn’t really fair.

The elephant in the room though,
is whether we really manage to record

times accurately even to the
nearest second. A couple of years back I had a

finish on video for a rather busy
race, and cross referenced it in slow

motion back to the times and
places we recorded at the time. It was

worrying. To say the least it was
worrying…

Jim C

---

[image: Avast logo] <>

This email has been checked for
viruses by Avast antivirus software.

<>

---

[image: Avast logo] <>

This email has been checked for
viruses by Avast antivirus software.

<>

---

Posted by: Art Engel <>

-!- -!-
-!- -!- On-Line
Sailwave help…
~ Mark Townsend’s Sailwave User Guide is available
from
~ Convert to daily digest of emails send blank
email to
~ To unsubscribe from the SUG please send blank
email to

Yahoo Groups Links
<> To visit your group on the web, go to:
<> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<> To change settings online go to:
(Yahoo! ID required)
<> To change settings via email:
<> To unsubscribe from this group, send an
email to:
<> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:

---

This email has been checked for
viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

---

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.

www.avast.com

<op12no2@…><op12no2@…>

https://www.avast.com/antivirus

www.avast.comhttps://www.avast.com/antivirus

https://www.avast.com/antivirus

www.avast.comhttps://www.avast.com/antivirus

artengel123@earthlink.net

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/http://www.sailing.org/
http://www.sailwave.com/http://sailwave.com/help/HTMLhttp://www.sailwave.com/download/sailwave/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdfsailwave-digest@yahoogroups.comsailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/join

sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
sailwave-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/