Sailwave - The Future - A personal message

As you’ve probably guessed by my erratic
engagement I’m having a little crisis with Sailwave. I need a fresh
start with it. The existing design is flawed but has too much inertia
to nudge the way it needs to go. I expected to be earning some cash
form it by now in the form of a title sponsor but results get scattered
all over the place and their origin gets lost - and it’s not attractive
to anybody any more - I’ve tried. People do donate now and again
(thanks) but for every user that does there are hundreds that don’t, so
that is not a viable model either. I can’t sell it as a product
because I cannot guarantee to support it - it would be unethical of me.

I may have said this before but I (really) have decided to retreat from
big events and concentrate on perhaps what I should have been
concentrating on all the time - grass roots sailors - personal
handicaps - small clubs - many without “web2” websites. There are
people out there already concentrating on the big events, so this makes
sense.

Sailwave will become “Sailwave for Windows” - I will probably still do
small changes and bug fixes as necessary - I will definitely do a
publishing tweak so that enterprising users can publish anything they
like using javascript. It has come to the end of it’s life - and is
struggling on Windows7 a bit - because of the development env - which
itself if struggling.

The new Sailwave will be trimmed right down and will run on
Windows/Max/Linux/iPhone natively.

There will be a very simple new model for a “regatta” (.blw file). By
rearranging the data structures I’ve figured out a way to add more
flexibility while removing confusing elements of the existing Sailwave

  • aliases (don’t worrk Mark!) - inherited fleets - multiple starts etc.

A “regatta” contains a list of competitors and N “events” - each event
is represented by a subset of those competitors - not necessarily
mutually exclusive (as now) - this is the big change - so you can have
an events called “everybody”, “cats” and “monos” for example. Or if
you want to experiment with scoring “everybody py”, “everybody SCHRS”
etc.

Each events has it own set of races (with ability to link to another
race rather then re-enter data) and the start data is just in the race

  • no multiple starts.

Each event has a scoring system associated with it.

This is a much easier model to understand.

There will be minimal hardwired code. Extra scoring systems can be
written by users and added to a library.

Every Regatta can have an optional auto web presence on the Sailwave
site. This facilitates web2 for those clubs that don’t/can’t have/get
it. You can post results to it etc etc. I also envisage competitor
entry and this is a route to make a little cash for myself maybe.

Apart from essential competitor fields like “points” the user will
speficy the field names he wants to use.

Ratings will be in a library not in the competitors.

Currently I’m leaning towards Adobe Air as the platform - Sailwave hits
nicely into a HTML model cos essentially the UI just a load of tables
and forms.

I want to maximise the opportunity for user involvement - designing
scripts, layouts for results etc, but keep control of the ‘harness’.

Anyway, as of tdoay - those are my thoughts.

Colin

i.e. I want to try and move to a thriving web
based community for both users and developers alike.

cj

Colin Jenkins wrote:

···

www.avg.com

Hi Colin…

Sailwave up until now is still the choice of software for
data processing in each event Regatta, in Indonesia sailwave have helped in the
release race results quickly and precisely.

Iif you want to expand the network in the web, not even
have to leave sailwave … success Colin……

Regards

Sugianto

+628179967605

From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Colin
Jenkins

···

Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 5:10 PM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Sailwave - The Future - A personal message

i.e. I want to try and move
to a thriving web based community for both users and developers alike.

cj

Colin Jenkins wrote:

As
you’ve probably guessed by my erratic engagement I’m having a little crisis
with Sailwave. I need a fresh start with it. The existing design is
flawed but has too much inertia to nudge the way it needs to go. I
expected to be earning some cash form it by now in the form of a title sponsor
but results get scattered all over the place and their origin gets lost - and
it’s not attractive to anybody any more - I’ve tried. People do donate
now and again (thanks) but for every user that does there are hundreds that
don’t, so that is not a viable model either. I can’t sell it as a product
because I cannot guarantee to support it - it would be unethical of me.

I may have said this before but I (really) have decided to retreat from big
events and concentrate on perhaps what I should have been concentrating on all
the time - grass roots sailors - personal handicaps - small clubs - many
without “web2” websites. There are people out there already
concentrating on the big events, so this makes sense.

Sailwave will become “Sailwave for Windows” - I will probably still
do small changes and bug fixes as necessary - I will definitely do a publishing
tweak so that enterprising users can publish anything they like using
javascript. It has come to the end of it’s life - and is struggling on
Windows7 a bit - because of the development env - which itself if struggling.

The new Sailwave will be trimmed right down and will run on Windows/Max/Linux/iPhone
natively.

There will be a very simple new model for a “regatta” (.blw
file). By rearranging the data structures I’ve figured out a way to add
more flexibility while removing confusing elements of the existing Sailwave -
aliases (don’t worrk Mark!) - inherited fleets - multiple starts etc.

A “regatta” contains a list of competitors and N “events” -
each event is represented by a subset of those competitors - not necessarily
mutually exclusive (as now) - this is the big change - so you can have an
events called “everybody”, “cats” and “monos” for
example. Or if you want to experiment with scoring “everybody
py”, “everybody SCHRS” etc.

Each events has it own set of races (with ability to link to another race
rather then re-enter data) and the start data is just in the race - no multiple
starts.

Each event has a scoring system associated with it.

This is a much easier model to understand.

There will be minimal hardwired code. Extra scoring systems can be
written by users and added to a library.

Every Regatta can have an optional auto web presence on the Sailwave
site. This facilitates web2 for those clubs that don’t/can’t have/get
it. You can post results to it etc etc. I also envisage competitor
entry and this is a route to make a little cash for myself maybe.

Apart from essential competitor fields like “points” the user will
speficy the field names he wants to use.

Ratings will be in a library not in the competitors.

Currently I’m leaning towards Adobe Air as the platform - Sailwave hits nicely
into a HTML model cos essentially the UI just a load of tables and forms.

I want to maximise the opportunity for user involvement - designing scripts,
layouts for results etc, but keep control of the ‘harness’.

Anyway, as of tdoay - those are my thoughts.

Colin



---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - [www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com)
Version: 9.0.790 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2750 - Release Date: 03/16/10 07:33:00

Hi Sugianto - Gosh - I didn’t know it was used in
Indonesia - thanks for the note - appreciated.

Colin

S u g i a n t o wrote:

···

sailwave@yahoogroups.commailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.comOn
Behalf Of

Sent:
**To:**sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:

www.avg.com

Hi Colin ,

i think you will find your programme is used all around the globe !

br, Ceri

IWA

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 11:19 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Sailwave - The Future - A personal message

Hi Sugianto - Gosh - I didn’t know it was used in Indonesia - thanks for the note - appreciated.
Colin

S u g i a n t o wrote:

Hi Colin…

Sailwave up until now is still the choice of software for data processing in each event Regatta, in Indonesia sailwave have helped in the release race results quickly and precisely.

Iif you want to expand the network in the web, not even have to leave sailwave ....  success Colin…..

Regards

Sugianto

+628179967605

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Colin Jenkins
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 5:10 PM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [sailwave] Sailwave - The Future - A personal message

i.e. I want to try and move to a thriving web based community for both users and developers alike.

cj

Colin Jenkins wrote:
  As you've probably guessed by my erratic engagement I'm having a little crisis with Sailwave.  I need a fresh start with it.  The existing design is flawed but has too much inertia to nudge the way it needs to go.  I expected to be earning some cash form it by now in the form of a title sponsor but results get scattered all over the place and their origin gets lost - and it's not attractive to anybody any more - I've tried.  People do donate now and again (thanks) but for every user that does there are hundreds that don't, so that is not a viable model either.  I can't sell it as a product because I cannot guarantee to support it - it would be unethical of me.

  I may have said this before but I (really) have decided to retreat from big events and concentrate on perhaps what I should have been concentrating on all the time - grass roots sailors - personal handicaps - small clubs - many without "web2" websites.  There are people out there already concentrating on the big events, so this makes sense.

  Sailwave will become "Sailwave for Windows" - I will probably still do small changes and bug fixes as necessary - I will definitely do a publishing tweak so that enterprising users can publish anything they like using javascript.  It has come to the end of it's life - and is struggling on Windows7 a bit - because of the development env - which itself if struggling.

  The new Sailwave will be trimmed *right down* and will run on Windows/Max/      Linux/iPhone natively.

  There will be a very simple new model for a "regatta" (.blw file).  By rearranging the data structures I've figured out a way to add more flexibility while removing confusing elements of the existing Sailwave - aliases (don't worrk Mark!) - inherited fleets - multiple starts etc.

  A "regatta" contains a list of competitors and N "events" - each event is represented by a subset of those competitors - not necessarily mutually exclusive (as now) - this is the big change - so you can have an events called "everybody", "cats" and "monos" for example.  Or if you want to experiment with scoring "everybody py", "everybody SCHRS" etc. 

  Each events has it *own* set of races (with ability to link to another race rather then re-enter data) and the start data is just in the race - no multiple starts.

  Each event has *a* scoring system associated with it.

  This is a *much* easier model to understand.

  There will be minimal hardwired code.  Extra scoring systems can be written by users and added to a library.

  Every Regatta can have an optional auto web presence on the Sailwave site.  This facilitates web2 for those clubs that don't/can't have/get it.  You can post results to it etc etc.  I also envisage competitor entry and this is a route to make a little cash for myself maybe.

  Apart from essential competitor fields like "points" the user will speficy the field names he wants to use.

  Ratings will be in a library not in the competitors.

  Currently I'm leaning towards Adobe Air as the platform - Sailwave hits nicely into a HTML model cos essentially the UI just a load of tables and forms.

  I want to maximise the opportunity for user involvement - designing scripts, layouts for results etc, but keep control of the 'harness'. 

  Anyway, as of tdoay - those are my thoughts.

Colin

 


---

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 9.0.790 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2750 - Release Date: 03/16/10 07:33:00



---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - [www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com)
Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2752 - Release Date: 03/17/10 07:33:00

sailwave users say the perfect things when im
having a crisis :slight_smile:

thx ceri

Ceri Williams wrote:

···

sailwave@yahoogroups.commailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.comOn Behalf Of
Sent:
**To:**sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:www.avg.comwww.avg.com

Colin,

Sailwave is "defacto" standard in Sweden used by almost every club!

We really appreciate your work!!!

Cheers
Anders Landenstad

Colin,

If you are able to take forward everything that is in the current
Windows version of SailWave, into a new incarnation of SailWave, in a
more modular structure that will run across different operating systems
and provide a mechanism by which the SUG community can develop
additional functionality for themselves & others, be it different
scoring metaphors or different result publishing requirements, then you
will take with you the current user base that SailWave has.

That SailWave user base is across the globe as others have stated. You
have in the past analysed the download statistics so you should not be
surprised at its wide spread use.

Kind regards,

Huw

User since the earliest version

···

On 17/03/2010 09:17, Colin Jenkins wrote:

As you’ve probably guessed by my erratic
engagement I’m having a little crisis with Sailwave. I need a fresh
start with it. The existing design is flawed but has too much inertia
to nudge the way it needs to go. I expected to be earning some cash
form it by now in the form of a title sponsor but results get scattered
all over the place and their origin gets lost - and it’s not attractive
to anybody any more - I’ve tried. People do donate now and again
(thanks) but for every user that does there are hundreds that don’t, so
that is not a viable model either. I can’t sell it as a product
because I cannot guarantee to support it - it would be unethical of me.

I may have said this before but I (really) have decided to retreat from
big events and concentrate on perhaps what I should have been
concentrating on all the time - grass roots sailors - personal
handicaps - small clubs - many without “web2” websites. There are
people out there already concentrating on the big events, so this makes
sense.

Sailwave will become “Sailwave for Windows” - I will probably still do
small changes and bug fixes as necessary - I will definitely do a
publishing tweak so that enterprising users can publish anything they
like using javascript. It has come to the end of it’s life - and is
struggling on Windows7 a bit - because of the development env - which
itself if struggling.

The new Sailwave will be trimmed right down and will run on
Windows/Max/Linux/iPhone natively.

There will be a very simple new model for a “regatta” (.blw file). By
rearranging the data structures I’ve figured out a way to add more
flexibility while removing confusing elements of the existing Sailwave

  • aliases (don’t worrk Mark!) - inherited fleets - multiple starts etc.

A “regatta” contains a list of competitors and N “events” - each event
is represented by a subset of those competitors - not necessarily
mutually exclusive (as now) - this is the big change - so you can have
an events called “everybody”, “cats” and “monos” for example. Or if
you want to experiment with scoring “everybody py”, “everybody SCHRS”
etc.

Each events has it own set of races (with ability to link to another
race rather then re-enter data) and the start data is just in the race

  • no multiple starts.

Each event has a scoring system associated with it.

This is a much easier model to understand.

There will be minimal hardwired code. Extra scoring systems can be
written by users and added to a library.

Every Regatta can have an optional auto web presence on the Sailwave
site. This facilitates web2 for those clubs that don’t/can’t have/get
it. You can post results to it etc etc. I also envisage competitor
entry and this is a route to make a little cash for myself maybe.

Apart from essential competitor fields like “points” the user will
speficy the field names he wants to use.

Ratings will be in a library not in the competitors.

Currently I’m leaning towards Adobe Air as the platform - Sailwave hits
nicely into a HTML model cos essentially the UI just a load of tables
and forms.

I want to maximise the opportunity for user involvement - designing
scripts, layouts for results etc, but keep control of the ‘harness’.

Anyway, as of tdoay - those are my thoughts.

Colin

i like defacto :slight_smile:

cj

Anders wrote:

···

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/http://www.sailing.org/http://www.sailwave.com/http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide_2009-08-21.pdfsailwave-digest@yahoogroups.comsailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/joinsailwave-digest@yahoogroups.comsailwave-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.comsailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comhttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/www.avg.com

Colin,

I could hardly tell you that the situation in Belgium is as bright as in Sweden.

The Northern Belgians foaund the Dutch ZW-scoring written in the right language so they preferred not to dive deep in the locales question…

The Southern ones were using mainly the French FReg software, but this one is clearly tailor-made for the French national prescriptions, and as soon as the users want to sore out of the limits of the French prescriptions, this very good software, everything goes wrong, and support team is reluctant to help foreign users.

Since I’ve written a locale, several Southern clubs swithed to Sailwave, end even some Northern ones went deliberately out of the recommendations of their regional federation.

Anyway, The most interesting for me is that we are working worldwide with the same tools, certified 100% compliant with the ISAF RRS…

Philippe

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: Sailwave User Group

Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:17 AM

Subject: [sailwave] Sailwave - The Future - A personal message

As you’ve probably guessed by my erratic engagement I’m having a little crisis with Sailwave. I need a fresh start with it. The existing design is flawed but has too much inertia to nudge the way it needs to go. I expected to be earning some cash form it by now in the form of a title sponsor but results get scattered all over the place and their origin gets lost - and it’s not attractive to anybody any more - I’ve tried. People do donate now and again (thanks) but for every user that does there are hundreds that don’t, so that is not a viable model either. I can’t sell it as a product because I cannot guarantee to support it - it would be unethical of me.

I may have said this before but I (really) have decided to retreat from big events and concentrate on perhaps what I should have been concentrating on all the time - grass roots sailors - personal handicaps - small clubs - many without “web2” websites. There are people out there already concentrating on the big events, so this makes sense.

Sailwave will become “Sailwave for Windows” - I will probably still do small changes and bug fixes as necessary - I will definitely do a publishing tweak so that enterprising users can publish anything they like using javascript. It has come to the end of it’s life - and is struggling on Windows7 a bit - because of the development env - which itself if struggling.

The new Sailwave will be trimmed right down and will run on Windows/Max/Linux/iPhone natively.

There will be a very simple new model for a “regatta” (.blw file). By rearranging the data structures I’ve figured out a way to add more flexibility while removing confusing elements of the existing Sailwave - aliases (don’t worrk Mark!) - inherited fleets - multiple starts etc.

A “regatta” contains a list of competitors and N “events” - each event is represented by a subset of those competitors - not necessarily mutually exclusive (as now) - this is the big change - so you can have an events called “everybody”, “cats” and “monos” for example. Or if you want to experiment with scoring “everybody py”, “everybody SCHRS” etc.

Each events has it own set of races (with ability to link to another race rather then re-enter data) and the start data is just in the race - no multiple starts.

Each event has a scoring system associated with it.

This is a much easier model to understand.

There will be minimal hardwired code. Extra scoring systems can be written by users and added to a library.

Every Regatta can have an optional auto web presence on the Sailwave site. This facilitates web2 for those clubs that don’t/can’t have/get it. You can post results to it etc etc. I also envisage competitor entry and this is a route to make a little cash for myself maybe.

Apart from essential competitor fields like “points” the user will speficy the field names he wants to use.

Ratings will be in a library not in the competitors.

Currently I’m leaning towards Adobe Air as the platform - Sailwave hits nicely into a HTML model cos essentially the UI just a load of tables and forms.

I want to maximise the opportunity for user involvement - designing scripts, layouts for results etc, but keep control of the ‘harness’.

Anyway, as of tdoay - those are my thoughts.

Colin

Notes about the data structure:-

Aliases are not not needed in the new arrangement - it’s not that they
are bad - they’re great - but in the current form they are hard to
understand. If an ‘event’ is based on a particular collection of
competitors, and sailwave is multi-event, and events don’t have to
contain mutually exclusive competitor collections, then aliases are
implicitly handled.

Current data structure: Series.Nraces.Nstarts + Series.Ncompetitors +
Series.Naliases

New data structure: Regatta.Nevents.Nraces(.Nstarts) +
Regatta.Ncompetitors

.Nstarts if I have to.

One of the BIG issues for a new Sailwave is scripting - I want to
develop a community that contributes scripts. I’ve discounted Lua - we
use it for work and it’s great but just a little too academic for it’s
own good. I’m leaning towards Python - it’s incredibly easy, has great
UI support and a massive community itself. As I am for the main
development in fact (Thanks Jon) - Python +Qt - beautiful
cross-platform UI. Huw I’ve discounted Mono for various reasons. And
Adobe Air. And…

Colin J

···

Colin,

Thanks for sharing.

Point from my perspective - having .Nstarts is beneficial in a club
racing scenario as it allows reduced data entry and reduces the
possibility of mistyping information. If one has to enter the start
time as well as finish time for each competitor in each handicap race
it will be a big pain and slow down data entry considerably.

No problem with your choice of development environment.

Kind regards,

Huw

···

On 18/03/2010 07:37, Colin Jenkins wrote:

Notes about the data structure:-

Aliases are not not needed in the new arrangement - it’s not that they
are bad - they’re great - but in the current form they are hard to
understand. If an ‘event’ is based on a particular collection of
competitors, and sailwave is multi-event, and events don’t have to
contain mutually exclusive competitor collections, then aliases are
implicitly handled.

Current data structure: Series.Nraces.Nstarts +
Series.Ncompetitors +
Series.Naliases

New data structure: Regatta.Nevents.Nraces(.Nstarts) +
Regatta.Ncompetitors

.Nstarts if I have to.

One of the BIG issues for a new Sailwave is scripting - I want to
develop a community that contributes scripts. I’ve discounted Lua - we
use it for work and it’s great but just a little too academic for it’s
own good. I’m leaning towards Python - it’s incredibly easy, has great
UI support and a massive community itself. As I am for the main
development in fact (Thanks Jon) - Python +Qt - beautiful
cross-platform UI. Huw I’ve discounted Mono for various reasons. And
Adobe Air. And…

Colin J


Huw,

The start time will be in the race - remember a race per event now.

for example consider a simple event consisting of cats and monos -
doing a weekend event. and the cats are going to to 2 less races than
the monos. Monos 5 races, cats 3 races.

Current sailwave - set up 5 races - set up two starts per race.

New Sailwave - Set up 2 events - set up 5 races for the monos and 3 for
the cats.

Not fixed in stone -thinking aloud - I may still need multi starts but
I’m trying to avoid them. I really want it KISS.

CJ

Huw Pearce wrote:

···

www.avg.com

Colin,

I might be missing something in your explanations and if I have done so
I apologise.

The following description of racing at the club I have been most
associated with for the last 25+ years and using Sailwave for producing
the results since mid-2003 when it replaced a custom Excel spreadsheet
solution is covered brilliantly in the current version of Sailwave,
thank you very much for making it so. I may be in a very small minority
with respect to the way racing is organised as described below and so
have need less consideration in requirements gathering; this is not a
problem currently as the current version of Sailwave covers the needs
now and works on the versions of Windows operating systems that are
currently in use (Windows 2000, XP & Vista).

Club Racing

  • Sunday racing split into four series(possibly event in your
    terminology) - Spring (April to June), Summer (July to September),
    Autumn (October to December) and Winter (January to March) - with 2
    races per day (usually) with each race having 5 or 6 starts (start 1 -
    Lasers (all variants) and other similar single-handers, Start 2 -
    Flying Fifteens, Start 3 - Dinghies with PY numerically less than 1100,
    Start 4 - Asymmetric spinnaker dinghies, Start 5 - multihulls, Start 6
    • Junior/youth competitors
  • Wednesday evening racing single race with two starts - Start 1
    Dinghies & Flying Fifteens, Start 2 - multihulls
    One current version Sailwave file can handle each of these and allows
    all the boats racing to have their finish positions/times entered from
    the finish line recording sheet in the order they crossed the finish
    line; there is no need to manually sort out which boat is in which
    event (I think using your terminology). I am understanding event to be
    a set of races for a group of competitors.
    If I have understood you correctly; in the new version of Sailwave I
    would be creating 6 events, i.e. 6 Sailwave files, one for each
    start. This means that the finish sheet has to either to be scanned 6
    times to pick out the competitors in each event or copying competitors
    to a separate sheet, one for each start, as appropriate. This will
    increase likelihood of mistakes.

Open Meeting

  • single class with several races with a single start per race
  • single class with several races where the competitors are split
    
    into colour groups (frequently 4 colours - red, green, blue &
    yellow) which race against each other on a round robin basis and for
    each race there are two colour groups sailing together from one start
    and the other two colour groups on a second start. Optimist &
    Topper classes use this. This means for each race there multiple firsts
    etc and the need to know which competitor is in what colour
    grouping for an individual race
  • Class Association, e.g. RS Class Association, where
    multiple different classes (e.g. RS200, RS400 & RS600) are
    competing and in each race there will be 3 starts.
    Case one above is simple and easy and not a problem in either current
    version or the new version of Sailwave yet to come. It is the latter
    two of the above Open Meeting scenarios I am struggling to understand;
    how they will work easily for the results team. Like for the club
    series above the current version of Sailwave is brilliant in that the
    boats can all be mixed up on the finish sheet and Sailwave will deal
    with it and prompt if there are duplicate sail numbers.

I hope I have misunderstood something. I am all for KISS but I am
looking at things from a race team/results entry perspective for KISS
:wink:

I look forward to your thoughts and others thoughts.

With grateful thanks for all you have done so far with Sailwave which
has made much life so much easier in producing race results for events
over the last few years.

Kind regards,

Huw

···

www.avg.com

hi huw

ok, take your sunday events - say sunday spring.

there are 6 starts:-

1 -
Lasers (all variants) and other similar single-handers

2 -
Flying Fifteens

3 - Dinghies with PY numerically less than 1100

4 - Asymmetric spinnaker dinghies

5 - multihulls

6

  • Junior/youth competitors

Of those 6 starts - how are they grouped WRT the actual event they are
in - i.e. how are they grouped with respect to which starts are
actually in the same event - competiing against each other? i.e. How
many winners from those 6 starts? i.e. imagine that they were not on
the same course and you had infinite resources/space - whoch starts
would have to be on the same course because they are in fact in the
same event competing against eachother.

is it 6 events - or less?

We can work from there…

CJ

Huw Pearce wrote:

···

www.avg.comwww.avg.com

I hope I haven’t got the wrong end of the stick; are you saying that we
would have to have separate files for each day’s event and that a
series (see the attached for our summer points series) would no longer
be possible?

···

www.avg.comwww.avg.com

-- Graham Pinkney
Club Administrator

office@stmawessailing.co.uk

I’m not explaining myself very well.

Let me put everybody’s mind at rest - there is nothing you can do in
the current sailwave that you can’t do in the new one - however because
of the rearrangement you’ll be able to do a lot more - in huw’s case
for example he could have a whole years racing in one regatta file.
And it will be easier to use and understand once you’ve made the
cognitive switch. It eliminates the nee for aliases. It allows the
same data to be used time and time again in eifferent ‘events’ so for
example if you scoring using high point then do low point - you wont
need to - you use two events side by side.

colin

ClubMail wrote:

···

www.avg.comwww.avg.com

-- Graham Pinkney
Club Administrator

office@stmawessailing.co.uk


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</details>

Dear Colin

I´m translating the sailwave to spanish in the nautical therms used in SouthAmerica.

Please tell me if I´m going in the right way.

Thanks in advance

Sergio Pereira

URU

Hi Colin,

Firstly congratulations on taking the brave step of doing a re-write. I'm sure the New Sailwave will be excellent after all your years of experience with it so far.

I hope you don't mind me getting in quick to ask about the functionality that is important to EasyTimer. Will you still have the ability to be able to import race results (either from a CSV file or XML) and will it be easy to export competitor lists (preferably in XML)?

Many thanks for all you have done so far with Sailwave.

Simon
SprayEasyTimer.webs.com

Colin

Sailwave is the default in New Zealand too.

Our club was one of the early ones that “paid” and we got a bargain!

Rob

Hamilton YC

NZ

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Colin Jenkins

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:44 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] The New Sailwave

I’m not explaining myself very well.

Let me put everybody’s mind at rest - there is nothing you can do in the current sailwave that you can’t do in the new one - however because of the rearrangement you’ll be able to do a lot more - in huw’s case for example he could have a whole years racing in one regatta file. And it will be easier to use and understand once you’ve made the cognitive switch. It eliminates the nee for aliases. It allows the same data to be used time and time again in eifferent ‘events’ so for example if you scoring using high point then do low point - you wont need to - you use two events side by side.

colin

ClubMail wrote:

I hope I haven't got the wrong end of the stick; are you saying that we would have to have separate files for each day's event and that a series (see the attached for our summer points series) would no longer be possible?

On 18/03/2010 17:04, Colin Jenkins wrote:

hi huw

  ok, take your sunday events - say sunday spring.

there are 6 starts:-

  1 - Lasers (all variants) and other similar single-handers

2 - Flying Fifteens
3 - Dinghies with PY numerically less than 1100
4 - Asymmetric spinnaker dinghies
5 - multihulls
6 - Junior/youth competitors

  Of those 6 starts - how are they grouped WRT the actual event they are in - i.e. how are they grouped with respect to which starts are actually in the same event - competiing against each other?  i.e. How many winners from those 6 starts?  i.e. imagine that they were not on the same course and you had infinite resources/space - whoch starts would have to be on the same course because they are in fact in the same event competing against eachother.

  is it 6 events - or less?

We can work from there…

CJ

  Huw Pearce wrote:

Colin,

    I might be missing something in your explanations and if I have done so I apologise.

    The following description of racing at the club I have been most associated with for the last 25+ years and using Sailwave for producing the results since mid-2003 when it replaced a custom Excel spreadsheet solution is covered brilliantly in the current version of Sailwave, thank you very much for making it so. I may be in a very small minority with respect to the way racing is organised as described below and so have need less consideration in requirements gathering; this is not a problem currently as the current version of Sailwave covers the needs now and works on the versions of Windows operating systems that are currently in use (Windows 2000, XP & Vista).

Club Racing

  •       Sunday racing split into four series(possibly event in your terminology) - Spring (April to June), Summer (July to September), Autumn (October to December) and Winter (January to March) - with 2 races per day (usually) with each race having 5 or 6 starts (start 1 - Lasers (all variants) and other similar single-handers, Start 2 - Flying Fifteens, Start 3 - Dinghies with PY numerically less than 1100, Start 4 - Asymmetric spinnaker dinghies, Start 5 - multihulls, Start 6 - Junior/youth competitors
    
  •       Wednesday evening racing single race with two starts - Start 1 Dinghies & Flying Fifteens, Start 2 - multihulls
    
  • single class with several races with a single start per race
  •       single class with several races where the competitors are split into colour groups (frequently 4 colours - red, green, blue & yellow)  which race against each other on a round robin basis and for each race there are two colour groups sailing together from one start and the other two colour groups on a second start. Optimist & Topper classes use this. This means for each race there multiple firsts *etc*           and the need to know which competitor is in what colour grouping for an individual race
    
  • Class Association, e.g . RS Class Association, where multiple different classes (e.g . RS200, RS400 & RS600) are competing and in each race there will be 3 starts.

Huw,

      The start time will be in the race - remember a race per event now. 

      for example consider a simple event consisting of cats and monos - doing a weekend event.  and the cats are going to to 2 less races than the monos.   Monos 5 races, cats 3 races.

      Current sailwave - set up 5 races - set up two starts per race.
      New Sailwave - Set up 2 events - set up 5 races for the monos and 3 for the cats.

      Not fixed in stone -thinking aloud - I may still need multi starts but I'm trying to avoid them.  I really want it KISS.

CJ

Huw Pearce wrote:

Colin,

Thanks for sharing.

        Point from my perspective - having .Nstarts is beneficial in a club racing scenario as it allows reduced data entry and reduces the possibility of mistyping information. If one has to enter the start time as well as finish time for each competitor in each handicap race it will be a big pain and slow down data entry considerably.

        No problem with your choice of development environment.

        Kind regards,

Huw

On 18/03/2010 07:37, Colin Jenkins wrote:

          Notes about the data structure:-

          Aliases are not not needed in the new arrangement - it's not that they are bad - they're great - but in the current form they are hard to understand.  If an 'event' is based on a particular collection of competitors, and sailwave is multi-event, and events don't have to contain mutually exclusive competitor collections, then aliases are implicitly handled.

Current data structure: Series.Nraces. Nstarts + Series.Ncompetitors + Series.Naliases
New data structure: Regatta.Nevents. Nraces(.Nstarts) + Regatta.Ncompetitors

          .Nstarts if I have to.

          One of the BIG issues for a new Sailwave is scripting - I want to develop a community that contributes scripts.  I've discounted Lua - we use it for work and it's great but just a little too academic for it's own good.  I'm leaning towards Python - it's incredibly easy, has great UI support and a massive community itself.  As I am for the main development in fact (Thanks Jon) - Python +Qt - beautiful cross-platform UI.  Huw I've discounted Mono for various reasons.  And Adobe Air.  And...

Colin J




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        One current version Sailwave file can handle each of  these and allows all the boats racing to have their finish positions/times entered from the finish line recording sheet  in the order they crossed the finish line; there is no need to manually sort out which boat is in which event (I think using your terminology)        . I am understanding event to be a set of races for a group of competitors.
        If I have understood you correctly; in the new version of Sailwave I would be creating 6 events, *i.e*        . 6 Sailwave files, one for each start. This means that the finish sheet has to either to be scanned 6 times to pick out the competitors in each event or copying competitors to a separate sheet, one for each start, as appropriate. This will increase likelihood of mistakes. 

Open Meeting
        Case one above is simple and easy and not a problem in either current version or the new version of Sailwave yet to come. It is the latter two of the above Open Meeting scenarios I am struggling to understand; how they will work easily for the results team. Like for the club series above the current version of Sailwave is brilliant in that the boats can all be mixed up on the finish sheet and Sailwave will deal with it and prompt if there are duplicate sail numbers.

        I hope I have misunderstood something. I am all for KISS but I am looking at things from a race team/results entry perspective for KISS ;-)

        I look forward to your thoughts and others thoughts.
        With grateful thanks for all you have done so far with Sailwave which has made much life so much easier in producing race results for events over the last few years.
Kind regards,
Huw


        On 18/03/2010 08:27, Colin Jenkins wrote:
-- Graham Pinkney
Club Administrator
office@stmawessailing.co.uk


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